Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => ISPs => Topic started by: DaveC on October 25, 2021, 11:29:05 AM

Title: Virgin Media Business
Post by: DaveC on October 25, 2021, 11:29:05 AM
Hi all,

We've just ordered a Virgin Media Business line (500/50) for our office, to try and improve upon our current ADSL (nothing else is available from Openreach).

It seems quite hard to find technical discussion of the service, so I'm hoping there are some users on this forum.

We were initially going to get some static IPs, but after reading about how this is delivered via a GRE tunnel on top of the basic service, decided to avoid that as another potential point of failure, so just went for the basic dynamic-IP option.  We'll be using an L2TP service to AAISP (we currently use them for bonded ADSL) for static IPv4 and IPv6, so don't really want to be running L2TP-over-GRE, reducing the MTU even further.

The most frustrating thing about Virgin seems to be the inability to plug our own hardware into their cable.  Yes, we appear to be able to put their Hitron CGNv4 device into some kind of bridge/modem mode, but given the issues its Intel Puma chipset reportedly has, we would have replaced it immediately if that was possible.

So I'm wondering if there are any Virgin Business users here, and if so, what their experience of the service and the Hitron router (either in router or modem mode) is.  Is it possible to get a reliable service? 

I'm also curious about how they will handle the installation - our office is a converted shop on a busy high street in central London.  The existing services (Openreach lines, gas, electricity), come through from under the pavement into a basement room at the front of the building.  We've asked Virgin to do the same, but have no idea if that will be possible.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: Chrysalis on October 25, 2021, 04:57:12 PM
I hope you get some answers, also it would be cool if you could document your experience of setting up AAISP's L2TP over VM, as if I go down that road again to get high download speeds, it probably would be going the same way on the setup.
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: j0hn on October 25, 2021, 06:21:10 PM
Just remember that AA's L2TP is limited to 100Mb/s.
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: d2d4j on October 25, 2021, 07:21:14 PM
Hi

We do not have VM but some clients do, and are used in Modem mode to a Draytek with multiple static IP

The service fluctuates and does keep losing connection, sometimes with high latency but is faster then ADSL2+ which like yourself, is the only service they can have.

Installation wise, VM agreed on the day the position of the service but was not brought underground.

The help desk is not always the best and any issues appear to take an awful long time to resolve, with 1 issue still outstanding from date of installation over 16 Months ago... (that I am aware off) but they are very quick to take your money...

Many thanks

John

VM BUSINESS

My Broadband Ping (https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/quality/share/0ecafa7dc32082d8bc62a01777438c99b5e0807e-25-10-2021)

BT FTTP BUSINESS

My Broadband Ping (https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/quality/share/1d240f571250f3ac9383d02660cf14265b30233e-25-10-2021)
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: DaveC on October 25, 2021, 09:02:09 PM
Thanks d2d4j

My understanding is that if static IPs are involved, the Virgin device can't act in a true "modem mode" - it needs to claim the connection's main (dynamic) IP in order to set up a GRE tunnel, so will be routing those IPs between the tunnel and the Drayteks.

This is what I'm curious about - most VMB users appear to have both static IPs, and a less-than-stellar service.  I've read people putting this down to one or both of the underpowered/buggy chipset in the Hitron CGNv4s, and Virgin's GRE endpoints.

So I'm curious about the Hitron's "raw" performance without the GRE tunnel.  We're not expecting to get the full speed (we currently use a Firebrick FB2700, which only claims to route up to about 350Mbits/s), and as J0hn said, AAISP's L2TP will also limit us to 100/50 - we're more interested in the stability.

I'll be happy to document our experiences here - installation is due on the 5th November.
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on October 25, 2021, 10:27:40 PM
The GRE tunnel sounds like a cop out, they can basically leave the router functioning as normal and have you tunnel everything, exactly the same way you do with AAISP.
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: DaveC on October 26, 2021, 08:32:35 AM
The GRE tunnel sounds like a cop out, they can basically leave the router functioning as normal and have you tunnel everything, exactly the same way you do with AAISP.

I'm not sure what you mean.  But yes, the GRE tunnel is horrible, especially as it's not sold as such - there is no indication at all on Virgin's website that this is a tunnel, rather than a native feature of the connection. 

I'm just glad I didn't make the mistake of ordering it, even though they offer 5 static IPs at no extra charge.
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: meritez on October 26, 2021, 10:06:16 AM
There's a detailed report of the GRE tunnel here: http://www.thebmwz3.co.uk/2017/05/virgin-media-business-cable-and-static.html

I'd stay clear of it if you can.
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: DaveC on October 26, 2021, 10:39:41 AM
There's a detailed report of the GRE tunnel here: http://www.thebmwz3.co.uk/2017/05/virgin-media-business-cable-and-static.html

I'd stay clear of it if you can.

Yes, I've read that page, and don't worry - we're not going anywhere near Virgin's GRE tunnel.  In fact, that's the main reason I posted here - most discussion of Virgin's Business service are from people using the tunnel, so I'm curious to know how well things work (or not) without it.

Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on October 26, 2021, 03:28:37 PM
I'm not sure what you mean.  But yes, the GRE tunnel is horrible, especially as it's not sold as such - there is no indication at all on Virgin's website that this is a tunnel, rather than a native feature of the connection. 

I'm just glad I didn't make the mistake of ordering it, even though they offer 5 static IPs at no extra charge.

What I meant was by using GRE it means they do not have to offer a different configuration on the router for business, its just the same as residential with an add-on that can just as easily be bought from AAISP or any other service that offers a tunnel.  Its a half-assed solution if the ISP is offering nothing better than you can do on residential.

Now I'm not saying business will be provisioned entirely identical, I'd hope you'd have a higher traffic priority, but its suspicious.
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: clyde123 on October 27, 2021, 03:36:03 PM
I setup a Virgin 350Mb (I think) service a couple of years ago. Ordered with (maybe) 5 static IPs. Originally tried to use with a Draytek router.

We had continuous problems. Eventually had to give up with the static IPs and revert to the single IP.
I think from memory the static IPs worked if we only used the Hitron.
Could not get the static IPs working with the Draytek, not in any stable way.

This was a couple of years ago. My memory might be a bit hazy on details.
We did get the system running on the Draytek with the single IP, which is Dynamic.
Then along came lockdowns and I've not been back since. Although I understand it was still working after a few months.

Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: Reformed on October 27, 2021, 06:49:21 PM
The GRE tunnel sounds like a cop out, they can basically leave the router functioning as normal and have you tunnel everything, exactly the same way you do with AAISP.

The GRE tunnel is from the router. The tunnel is there to keep IP addresses static. The business service previously used DHCP reservation but this broke when customers changed DHCP scope.
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on October 27, 2021, 07:12:34 PM
The GRE tunnel is from the router. The tunnel is there to keep IP addresses static. The business service previously used DHCP reservation but this broke when customers changed DHCP scope.

I can understand that, but its still additional overhead which is the main reason why you'd get the IPs from your ISP rather than using a third-party tunnel.

Basically you're better off using a third party as the overhead will be similar and you have the added benefit that you can change ISP at any time without altering your IP range.
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: meritez on October 27, 2021, 07:34:49 PM
The GRE tunnel is from the router. The tunnel is there to keep IP addresses static. The business service previously used DHCP reservation but this broke when customers changed DHCP scope.

Sorry, DHCP reservation on public IP addresses?
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: j0hn on October 27, 2021, 08:44:58 PM
Sorry, DHCP reservation on public IP addresses?

Yes. That's how most networks assign IP's.
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on October 28, 2021, 12:43:10 AM
Yes. That's how most networks assign IP's.

Well, networks that don't use PPP. ;)  Which I suppose brings up a point, GRE overhead surely is less than PPP so not terrible in principle?
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: DaveC on October 28, 2021, 10:32:55 AM
My understanding is that PPP is 8 bytes, whilst GRE adds 24 bytes (a 4 byte GRE header, plus a 20 byte IP header).

I'm not sure about L2TP, but I think it's more than that.
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: Reformed on October 28, 2021, 03:43:00 PM
Sorry, DHCP reservation on public IP addresses?

How about when customers move CMTS and hence go into a new DHCP scope?

When sites are collapsed together and one site goes onto another's scopes?

Don't you think it it were that easy VMO2 would do it? It's how they used to but as I said that caused issues.
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: Chrysalis on October 28, 2021, 05:23:33 PM
Could VM not move their DHCP assignment further inside their network so a node split doesnt upset things?  Or is cable broadband not able to work like that?

The static IP setup seems a massive scuff job.
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: Reformed on October 28, 2021, 10:08:51 PM
It is further into the network. A centralised cluster. Still need to allocate scopes to access routers / CMTS though.

Cable is native IP. Have to have that first hop directly reachable so has to be per-device to give layer 3 continuity.

No comment on the solution VM are using.
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: Chrysalis on November 08, 2021, 12:31:51 PM
Just remember that AA's L2TP is limited to 100Mb/s.


I just mentioned this on AAISP's irc channel and Andrew confirmed the limit is been raised soon. :)
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: Weaver on November 08, 2021, 12:40:20 PM
<pedant>
PPP is 2 bytes. PPP+PPPoE is 2+6 = 8 bytes, which is why PPP+PPPoE modem users often have reduced IP MTU down to 1492 from 1500, unless they have PPP MTU of 1508 bytes in which case they get the full 1500 IP MTU.</pedant>
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: DaveC on November 08, 2021, 01:28:05 PM

I just mentioned this on AAISP's irc channel and Andrew confirmed the limit is been raised soon. :)

Thanks, I lurk in their IRC channel, but don't pay much attention.  I see he said "shortly" - so fingers crossed it's this side of Christmas....

As for my Virgin install, they still haven't completed the external "pre-install" work, so the installation has been pushed back to the 23rd November (from the 5th).
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on November 08, 2021, 11:36:07 PM
It is further into the network. A centralised cluster. Still need to allocate scopes to access routers / CMTS though.

Cable is native IP. Have to have that first hop directly reachable so has to be per-device to give layer 3 continuity.

No comment on the solution VM are using.

So does Cable have that nice benefit (that I had for a while on Digital Region) where if you play games with someone on the same cabinet its pretty much like being on the same LAN as the cabinet as you're routed straight from the cabinet to the other customer?
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: Reformed on November 18, 2021, 03:06:44 PM
No, that requires an IP-aware device in the cabinet. You'll have to go to the hubsite but can go straight from there to the neighbour, either directly or via switches and routers.

Either way your IP terminates locally and you're routed to neighbours directly, not via a BRAS somewhere.
Title: Re: Virgin Media Business
Post by: DaveC on February 01, 2022, 07:18:37 PM
Just as a follow-up on this - over three months since the order was made, we're still waiting for our install.  I had almost given up on it, but yesterday the weekly "we're chasing our contractor for an update on the civil works" update email changed to saying the works are due to be completed on the 3rd February.

And indeed, on checking the scheduled roadworks, there is Virgin Media work scheduled outside our office for the 2nd-4th February with the description "DL, CLEAR BLOCKED TEE IN FOOTWAY AND LIFTING CARRIAGEWAY PIT LID".

So who knows, maybe the install will complete this side of Easter.