Kitz Forum
Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: blackhampete on August 24, 2021, 11:07:39 AM
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Folks, I am completely new to this forum.
I am completely non technical
I am trying to find out how to move an exchange
I need to find out where I can engage a very experienced telecom engineer who can help me with this project
Your assistance appreciated
Peter
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I'm sorry, but this can't be a serious question. Is it intended as a joke?
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It's perfectly feasible to move a building, there's many companies that specialise in it https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/Structure_relocation
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It's perfectly feasible to move a building, there's many companies that specialise in it https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/Structure_relocation
I agree, they did it in the Black Country Living Museum, recreating all the buildings brick by brick: https://bclm.com/
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Of course the request for information may not be relating to the move of a physical building but to moving a rack or cabinet of electronics. Let's wait and see if the OP supplies any further details.
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Considering the OP wants an experienced telecoms engineer to help move the "exchange" I think it's safe to say they don't mean a building.
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They probably mean a frame in a office building.
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I have to admit, when I read the OP ... my response was similar to roseway's :lol:
But I am wondering if the poster intended this to mean a mini-MDF or similar ?? For example in large places like BAE Systems, Rolls Royce, Hospitals etc ... they do have their own frame and associated switch systems (Exchange). I'm wondering if the terminology, is making this request initially sound ludicrous ??
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I've had a PM from the OP about this thread. Reading between the lines I think this is actually a serious post but the op says he is not very technical and so I dont think the phrase "move an exchange" should be taken literally. I'm not even sure if English is first language.
As I'm not around much this week due to medical reasons and literally have been totally wiped when I get home, there's not much point me entering into PMs as I dont even have any further technical info from the OP.. so I'd appreciate if you guys can try help fathoming out what it is he is wanting to achieve.
Cheers.
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@blackhampete - it may help if you can perhaps answer the following questions so that we can have a better idea of what it is that you are wanting to do.
- Is it perhaps you mean that you want to change which exchange that your telephone line comes out of?
- Possibly because there is another telephone exchange which is nearer to your premises?
- Are you wanting your telephone line re-routing and if so why?
- Is this for a residential or business property?
Whilst do have some experienced people here, unfortunately no-one can help until we have a little bit more information about what it is that you are trying to achieve and why.
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many thanks for moving me to this forum
As I mentioned I am non technical and also new to this forum
i am trying to find someone who can advise me on what is required in order to move an exchange
I want to buy an exchange site, move the technology to a nearby location and build a residence on the site
I have got to believe the technology must have moved on in the last 20 years to allow the new stuff to be located in a much smaller space.
I am trying to understand if it is technically possible. the exchange has 494 residential users and 32 non residential users
Thanks
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Surely if you buy an exchange site then the move would be down who owns the exchange itself and you'd pay them the cost of doing it?
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Why on earth would the operator of a working exchange consider selling the site. The work and costs involved would be phenomenal in any case, in the hundreds of thousands of pounds region and take months to complete to re-arrange all the external cabling as well as provide new equipment at the new location, you can't just move an exchange.
It ain't gonna happen, you have no idea of the enormity of the task.
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I know I'm going to be accused of preconceptions .... but that last post by blackhampete does not smack of a geezer who is enquiring about elements of a genuine business proposal/opportunity.
Apologies if I'm off the mark, but it sounds like a spliff-based, wild dream.
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Agreed with licquorice, and BS may have a point.
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It's not that hard to move an exchange, I used to have to do it 2 or 3 times a day - admittedly it was a tad smaller, wrapped up inside an armoured personnel carrier and designed for the job! ::)
But in this particular case whoever owns it is going to be in the best place to give advice, they are the ones responsible for providing the service.
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All the memories of converting UAXs to TXE2s come flooding back :) :) :)
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It's not that hard to move an exchange, I used to have to do it 2 or 3 times a day - admittedly it was a tad smaller, wrapped up inside an armoured personnel carrier and designed for the job! ::)
But in this particular case whoever owns it is going to be in the best place to give advice, they are the ones responsible for providing the service.
;D ;D ;D
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I want to buy an exchange site, move the technology to a nearby location and build a residence on the site
<snip>
. . . the exchange has 494 residential users and 32 non residential users
Would you be willing to disclose the site in question?
From the number of circuits terminated, it is possibly an ex-UAX13 site (in days gone by) and the building could be even be of timber construction. Intriguing. :-\
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The over-riding reason appears to be is that he wants the land at that particular site and as part of the purchase deal is prepared to move the exchange equipment to another location. Yes it is possible but requires a lot of planning and co-operation of Openreach who would want to ensure that their approval is met. From memory they moved location for a couple of large exchanges within the past few years - the reason why they moved is coming up.
Thing is it could be very complicated. BT/Openreach no longer own ~ 75% of the land and buildings where their exchanges are located. Circa 20* years ago, BT sold off several thousand of their exchanges to property management companies. It was a way for BT to release equity & raise capital to pay for 21CN and full fibre and back then they envisioned in ~20 years time there would no longer be a need for exchanges in every town. When they sold off the land, part of the deal was that BT would still be able to operate from the building for 20* years and they would pay rent on the property for as long as needed.
Bearing in mind that the vast majority of the properties sold were the smaller exchanges, its highly likely that the exchange you are interested in is owned by a property management company. Any of the exchanges BT do still own, you don't stand a cat in hells chance of being able to purchase The first step would surely be to find out who owns the land by searching Land Registry.
TBH I think this is going to be a pie in the sky project. The property management company who bought likely already have plans for the land and buildings. They've basically been sitting on the land unable to do anything with it until BT/Openreach are ready to move out. There's been a couple of cases where BT/Openreach failed to get a lease continuation and Openreach has had to relocate the exchange to a new building.
I did hear a few years ago that Openreach still intend moving out of ~5k* exchanges over the coming years. If you think about it FTTC & full fibre already operates out of Headend exchanges. Copper will also go as we move over to VoIP.
Theres also a sticking point due to OFCOMs insistence ~15* years ago that BT should allow other network operators access to their premises, so what happens now with LLU? The likes of Sky and TT still have live equipment in practically every single exchange and so Openreach cant just close down the exchange - not whilst there is still LLU MSANs in them. BT have already had to pay quite heavily on some exchanges and renegotiate terms with the property management company as leases have now started to expire and BT aren't is a position to be able to move out yet
Unless you have lots of cash to throw at what you want to do, I think its going to be nigh-on impossible. The current situation is a mess as it is. You have
- BT/Openreach haggling to extend leases they made 20yrs ago.
- Openreach knowing that they want to close down ~ 5k* of the exchanges asap.
- OFCOM insistence that any LLU obligations are met and access to the exchange for other operators.
- Property management companies wanting Openreach out so they can develop on the land they bought 20yrs ago
- Various delays. 20 years ago BT envisioned little need for copper by 2020. 21CN telephony voice upgrades abruptly halted ~2008
TBH because of the above points, I think the technical aspect of moving telephony equipment is the least of your worries. Much harder is going to be able to get the property management company to sell. Because of what I explained above, now is not the best time to be able to purchase the land. Many of the locations will likely have some sort of clause written in that the property management company cannot resell whilst BT/Openreach still have operating equipment in the premises.
Your first step would be to find out who owns the land, then you are going to need the legal expertise of a specialist conveyancer. IIRC most of them went to a large specialist property investment company who may sell if the price offered is attractive enough, but then again they may not be able to depending upon what sort of lease arrangement they negotiated with BT when they bought it 20 years ago. This is hardly likely to be something one man can do alone, it would require a whole team of many different specialists. Because of the complexity of the BT leases, its not the sort of thing anyone on a forum can advise you on.
Notes
*Typing from memory. So could be wrong with dates about how long ago and numbers of exchanges sold.
The names of BT & Openreach are used interchangeably depending on the timeline & Openreach did not come into being until after the leases were made.
[Moderator edited for a typo fix.]
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Telereal Trillium is/was the company BT sold off the property to 20 years ago, on a 30 year lease deal. But tried to get rid of more/get out of the deal on some property 5 years ago.
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I guess he's seen an exchange sitting on a plot of land he likes the look of and thinks its just a matter of picking it up and siting it somewhere else with absolutely no concept of what is involved either from a commercial point of view or technical point of view.
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All the memories of converting UAXs to TXE2s come flooding back :) :) :)
:) :) :)
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I believe the lease ends in 2025, ergo the push to cease Exchange based services (ie:PSTN) by this point.
As per kitz - from memory.
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Folks
I really appreciate the information many in the forum have provided particularly Kitz who has both spent a considerable amount of his time and has also understood most of the issues I am wrestling with.
In this forum as I said at the outset I have ZERO technical understanding of moving the technology associated with an exchange which is precisely why I am asking for technical advice
I am across the commercial issues and believe them to be very significantly bigger than actually moving the technology, but if the technology issues cannot be addressed then the rest is irrelevant
You are also absolutely correct in identifying this is commercially and legally a very complex situation and would require access to a very broad range of commercial talents, which is why I specifically was not asking for anything other than technical help
It has been useful to get your range of views
One I am still wrestling with is the LLU issue, in as much as even if it is physically possible and commercially viable to relocate the exchange technology, what happens to the third parties such as Sky and TT
Many thanks. Blackhampete
PS I am beginning to understand this stuff :)
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I'm struggling to understand why you need to know the technical issues involved. You are never going to be in a position to understand the complexities involved and asking on a forum is just crazy. At the very least you would need to employ a firm of consultants to investigate what would be required, assuming they were even granted access to the information they would need. Just the planning of the operation would probably take months.
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Would BT/Openreach let a 3rd party contractor do the technical work of relocating an exchange that they hadn't commissioned themselves? My thought was that he'd have to ask BT/Openreach directly (possibly using a technical person to check that the figures BT/Openreach quote is reasonable).
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The whole thing is a total nonsense, the idea of asking how do do it on a forum is laughable.
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But intellectually interesting to those of us who know some of what would be required to fulfill such a project. :)
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:) :)
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his time
Never assume......
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Never assume......
Indeed ;) ;)
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Folks,
Not sure what the protocol is to close off this thread, but thanks for your input.
My original question was:
"I need to find out where I can engage a very experienced telecom engineer who can help me with this project".
I was not asking for a single bit of technical information but it was enriching to get it anyway. Many of your questions stimulated some new thinking for which I am grateful
I didn't get what I was looking for, but got a real insight into the world of exchanges, some very enthusiastic individuals, others less so
For the doubters in the group. It is intended as very real project that I am happy to invest significant amounts of money into if there is any chance of success. My thinking is it is a 5 year project, if it qualifies for investment
The jury is out until I find my engineer and commission an analysis
Many thanks
PS my first language IS English
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@blackhampete,
There's several telecoms engineers posting in this thread, none of us will advertise who we work for, as that's not what this forum is for.
Thank you for confirming what type of exchange you are looking to move.
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I am seriously intrigued as to how you think this project can fly. If the prospective site is as valuable as you seem to think it is, it will cost you a fortune to buy it. It will then cost you a second fortune to purchase a suitable location to re-site the exchange. Then it will cost you a third fortune for all the technical and civils work to provide new equipment and transfer the services to the new site. This is all assuming that you can persuade the operator(s) to even consider moving the kit in the first place.
Sorry, but in my view it is all pie in the sky and doesn't have a snowballs chance of success.
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Realistically you would not move the exchange, but would look for solutions that would allow service to the customers to continue. Depending on where it is a solution may already be in place, if for example disaster recovery has ever been considered for the locatio n.
With the advent of fibre the functionality of the exchange could be anywhere, interfacing with local cabling could be changed or replaced - a number of ways depending on geography. Getting a high level solutions design and project plan not that hard to produce, but would be easier with local knowledge, the exchange operator would be the ones to put the detailed plan together and implement it.
The thing I can't figure out though, from the size mentioned I imagine its in a small probably remote village, and although I don't know the exact location of many such exchanges, none are very big, and none occupy a particularly valuable bit of real estate.
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Realistically you would not move the exchange, but would look for solutions that would allow service to the customers to continue.
Realistically until the copper PSTN is switched off you would have very little choice other than to move the exchange, there are no other solutions that would allow service to continue.
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Quote from: blackhampete on Today at 01:53:34 PM
his time
Never assume......
I'm used to it. Hence the Trinity quote in my Bio ;)
TBH it happens so often that these days it never registers any more and it takes someone else to point it out ;D
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Telereal Trillium is/was the company BT sold off the property to 20 years ago, on a 30 year lease deal. But tried to get rid of more/get out of the deal on some property 5 years ago.
Thanks I couldn't remember the exact details. I do recall they had problems with a couple a few years ago. Those were the ones I was thinking of which they upsticked and moved to the equipment themselves to new premises. I dont recall an exact reason being given, my assumption would be that the management company were so desperate to proceed with their own plans for the land that they pushed the annual lease fees up to silly money.. and BT thought it would be cheaper to move. One of them was iirc a fairly prominent or large exchange.
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That was the Chelsea exchange closure (https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/06/chelsea-uk-telephone-exchange-closure-hit-broadband-speeds.html) in London, moving all services to the South Kensington exchange.
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Folks,
Not sure what the protocol is to close off this thread, but thanks for your input.
Youre welcome.
I think some of the others have covered the more technical aspects re equipment in that I doubt whether it would be the sort of thing they would let you do on their behalf. They either tend to stick with in-house or use specialist companies such as LightSource (https://www.lightsourceuk.net/). There's a couple of guys who have had input already and who are far more knowledgeable than me when it comes to Openreach and their equipment.
I think the problem you are going to encounter is that existing lease ownership for the land makes it complicated before you even start on the technical side.
Even when it does come to the technical aspect I doubt the type of info you want will be easy to find. The exchanges are so diverse - even though there is some sort of exchange hierarchy (https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/21cn_network.htm#21CN_network), no two are exactly alike. I wouldn't even know who to point you to... other than say you may just have to lay your cards on the table and approach BT/Openreach direct.
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Just one more point from me, Openreach do not own the equipment, their responsibility is the lines. BTW own the equipment. If the land is available for sale there will likely be a lead from BT Property who will be the initial point of contact and will co-ordinate other BT Group and Telereal resources as required - things may have changed a bit, but it is how it was 5 - 21 years ago. Assuming we are talking about a BT Asset !
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Iain
forgot to confirm
yes it is a BT asset
Peter
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build a residence on the site
I really appreciate the information many in the forum have provided particularly Kitz who has both spent a considerable amount of his time and has also understood most of the issues I am wrestling with.
considerable amount of Her time :)
Our Self Build.
We looked at water works sites, Railway land, GPO now BT, A 'Nuclear Bunker' :-\ :hmm: and many other sites in a radius of about 25 miles of places we were interested in building.
In the end our land was part of a 'Lord of the Manor' Who owned land all over the uk, parts were sold off when he died and a lot was given to the National Trust in lue of death duties . :)
We have been building our self's on our site for 30 years only employing a man with a JCB at the beginning.
Good luck with your project.
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I used to manage and operate a PBX many years ago, that was very simple to move - we moved it ourselves! But that is very different from an entire building type exchange. I would have thought that would have been impossible?
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I used to manage and operate a PBX many years ago, that was very simple to move - we moved it ourselves! But that is very different from an entire building type exchange. I would have thought that would have been impossible?
Not impossible, but a helluva lot of work involved. :)