Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => FTTP Rollout => Topic started by: spudgun on August 20, 2021, 01:02:41 PM

Title: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: spudgun on August 20, 2021, 01:02:41 PM
Good afternoon everyone,

I live in an area that has appeared on the published Openreach information as being part of the FTTP rollout.

Over the last week or so a contractor (sadly, just a plain white van with no logo) has been opening the BT branded duct covers round by me and inserting blue or orange cord into them. They have also been leaving numbers in green pain on some of the duct covers (e.g. 234, 128) that don't seem to fit into any pattern that I can make sense of.

They did part of the road that I live on today and I was going to ask them when they were at the duct that is right outside my house, but they only did one side of the street and then cleared off.

Any of those 'in the know' that have any idea what this was all about, what the painted numbers might mean and why they didn't do all of the ducts?

Many thanks in advance
Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: Black Sheep on August 20, 2021, 07:43:59 PM
Hardly anything to go on here at all, so can only ever be guess-work/speculation ??

OR contractors are usually liveried, but it's not unknown for a replacement unliveried vehicle to be used whilst the other van is undergoing maintenance, etc.

Conversely, it could be an Alt-Net taking advantage of the PIA offerings ??
Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: tiffy on August 20, 2021, 09:05:28 PM
When my local area was "fibred" earlier this year by OR sub-contractors, all UG distribution, the footway chamber markings appeared to be a reference to the installed CBT (if that's the correct terminology) number of ports and the number of properties fed from the chamber.
In my case "X4/4" where a 4 port CBT was fitted and 4 properties would be fed from this chamber.

Possibly not a standard but peculiar to the OR sub-contractors in question, in my area, KN Circet?

Strangely enough my CBT is still "virginal", I'am waiting until end of FTTC contract with ZEN in December and my 3 neighbours are happy with their existing ADSL/VDSL service and reluctant to have their front gardens "ploughed" for fibre access, existing POTS cables are DIG.
Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: spudgun on August 20, 2021, 11:00:19 PM
Hardly anything to go on here at all, so can only ever be guess-work/speculation ??

OR contractors are usually liveried, but it's not unknown for a replacement unliveried vehicle to be used whilst the other van is undergoing maintenance, etc.

Conversely, it could be an Alt-Net taking advantage of the PIA offerings ??

Thank you for having a go at the slim trail of breadcrumbs that I have to follow - i'll keep my eyes peeled locally to see if/when they appear to be working in the area next to see if I can get more details of who they are and what they are up to :)
Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: Black Sheep on August 21, 2021, 05:16:40 PM
Thank you for having a go at the slim trail of breadcrumbs that I have to follow - i'll keep my eyes peeled locally to see if/when they appear to be working in the area next to see if I can get more details of who they are and what they are up to :)

Please do, and if you get any piccies to post up, we may be able to make some kind of sense of their 'code'.  ;D
Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: kitz on August 21, 2021, 06:25:07 PM
Over the last week or so a contractor (sadly, just a plain white van with no logo) has been opening the BT branded duct covers round by me and inserting blue or orange cord into them.

It was contractors who did the rod and roping around here.  I was told by the guys doing it that my house was the only one nearby where the duct was clear and they managed to pull the rope through.   The rod they used was orange and they left blue nylon rope in place up the the BT66.   I've checked a few neighbours houses and I they dont have rope in place.   

Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: spudgun on August 22, 2021, 09:34:04 AM
Here are some pics from a bit of a walkaround yesterday

Pic 1 - in the main chamber by the FTTC cabinet (Huawei cab installed by BDUK funding April 2014) and associated telephone cab with G.Fast pod (added in approximately September 2018)

Approximate co-ordinates - 51.950418147036, -2.0730838519977617 - Street view image is from 2011 so you won't see the FTTC cab or G.Fast pod. The FTTC cab is on the grass opposite the telephone cab

Pic 2 - BT branded covers in pavement with green writing on

Pic 3 - More BT branded covers - from what I noticed yesterday, the numbers are sequential in the direction that the cable run probably goes in to the cabinet - however, not every cover has a painted number on as some are missed out. So i followed a route that had 205, 206, 207, 208 etc. yesterday. The entire area from these photos has their telephone supplied by underground ducts and was built in the early-mid 1990s, however, there are one or two older properties scattered around within a half mile radius that are served by overhead lines.

It is weird, however, that in every street the markings are only on one side of the covers on the pavement even though there are houses on both sides with covers outside. I know that there is BT equipment and joints in the side that doesn't have markings, however, as I've seen inside the BT branded cover that is outside my house (which is on the side of the road with no markings on) when I had an engineer visit to fix a fault a few years back. I can't find a picture of something similar, but inside the BT branded cover outside my house there are is fairly large cable which runs in to a black plastic housing that is about a foot long (iirc) that is shaped a bit like a bell jar and the cable also continues to the next cover a little further down the road.

There are also some covers with additional code next to the number - but as I am limited to 3 images per post that is coming up in the next post....
Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: spudgun on August 22, 2021, 09:37:27 AM
Here is the final image with additional writing of some kind on the BT cover.

If you need large images to see this is higher res, please let me know and I'll add them to an image hosting site.

I doubt any of this will help too much, but I thought it might be interesting to document this in case anyone else sees strange markings appearing and wonders what they are
Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: Black Sheep on August 22, 2021, 01:01:01 PM
Well, I have to say - I've not seen that kind of marking before or the sequential numbering ??

What follows is purely speculation, or best guess .... and even that might be wide of the mark ?? But, it could be the TRR gangs (Test Rod & Rope) in that particular area, favour giving a 'naming convention' (or numbering convention) to the chambers for their 'box-to-box' diagram they have to produce for each PON.

On the B2B diagram,  it will generally say 'roped' between box 1 & 2, box 2 & 3, box 3 & 4 etc etc ...... blockage between box 7 & 8 (with distance to blockage taken from both boxes). 

Or, as mooted earlier, it could very well be an Alt-Net utilising the PIA scheme to access OR duct space ??

I may have a look at the grid co-ords at some point if I get time, to see if it sheds any light.   :)
Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: burakkucat on August 22, 2021, 05:46:17 PM
Approximate co-ordinates - 51.950418147036, -2.0730838519977617 - Street view image is from 2011 so you won't see the FTTC cab or G.Fast pod. The FTTC cab is on the grass opposite the telephone cab

I see Hayfield Way, Bishops Cleeve, Gloucestershire. (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9504314,-2.0731482,3a,37.5y,175.63h,70.28t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-7nwQNiPnclNuOMS969qIQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D-7nwQNiPnclNuOMS969qIQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D104.77954%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656)

(Could they be the markings of an operative from the "doughnut", located in Cheltenham?  :-\  )
Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: niemand on August 22, 2021, 06:21:07 PM
Haha no. If they wanted to do things on Openreach's plant they'd have Openreach do it.
Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: spudgun on August 22, 2021, 10:09:12 PM
Well, I have to say - I've not seen that kind of marking before or the sequential numbering ??

What follows is purely speculation, or best guess .... and even that might be wide of the mark ?? But, it could be the TRR gangs (Test Rod & Rope) in that particular area, favour giving a 'naming convention' (or numbering convention) to the chambers for their 'box-to-box' diagram they have to produce for each PON.

On the B2B diagram,  it will generally say 'roped' between box 1 & 2, box 2 & 3, box 3 & 4 etc etc ...... blockage between box 7 & 8 (with distance to blockage taken from both boxes). 

Or, as mooted earlier, it could very well be an Alt-Net utilising the PIA scheme to access OR duct space ??

I may have a look at the grid co-ords at some point if I get time, to see if it sheds any light.   :)

Thank you for your thoughts, i'll be interested in anything that you can see on databases that aren't available to Joe Public.

I'll keep an eye out tomorrow when I take the dog out to see if I can see anyone 'in action' so to speak.

It does seem odd that in all 14 of the roads I've seen with the markings that they are only on 1 side of the street. Pic 6 below is taken from street view for one of the streets (just round the corner from the cabinet in the earlier post)  and shows that there are properties and BT covers on both sides of the street, but the markings are only on the left hand side from the perspective of the photo.

Hopefully I'll add some more detail over the next few days, if I can see anything else or if I can find some chatty contractors :-)

Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: niemand on August 22, 2021, 11:25:00 PM
So this may also be a third party using PIA to get to a new build development or a business.

In fact the more you say the more I'm thinking that's how it is. If they're going in a direct line to somewhere it could be OFNL or some other operator using Openreach ducts to reach a new build FTTP site.
Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: spudgun on August 22, 2021, 11:53:54 PM
So this may also be a third party using PIA to get to a new build development or a business.

In fact the more you say the more I'm thinking that's how it is. If they're going in a direct line to somewhere it could be OFNL or some other operator using Openreach ducts to reach a new build FTTP site.

That's an interesting idea, but it doesn't quite fit with the local geography and numbering system. The numbers and activity that i've seen so far are spread across about half a square mile and run from the cabinets in to various cul de sacs where there is no room for any further development. The areas concerned were on the edge of a village in the mid 90s (weird to think this is a village when 18,000 people live here!), but in the last 20 years the boundary of the village is well past these locations and the new developments all have/had either FTTP (although I'm not 100% on that) or Virgin Media built in by the developers and there are no new developments anywhere near these locations as all of the land is already used up and has houses on.

I'll spread my net more widely over the coming days and see if these numbers appear in the streets around where BDUK put FTTC cabs in 2014 and a little further afield where Virgin's footprint is - I'm sure the dog will appreciate going on some new routes :-)

Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: Black Sheep on August 23, 2021, 09:29:43 AM
Just had a quick glance at this - the only PON's built thus far off your Exchange are 'new sites' or 'retro new-sites'.

The duct and joint-boxes around that particular area you mention, are for the most part just on one side of the pavements. There's a few that do have more on the other side, such as Nortenham, Haylea and the bottom end of Cornfields.

As for the markings, I'm none the wiser. I mentioned PIA on my first reply to you on this thread and I'm guessing this is what it may be - easy, quick wins for any communications provider. Is there no way of checking with your local Council to get a definite answer ??
Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: spudgun on August 23, 2021, 09:56:06 AM
Just had a quick glance at this - the only PON's built thus far off your Exchange are 'new sites' or 'retro new-sites'.

The duct and joint-boxes around that particular area you mention, are for the most part just on one side of the pavements. There's a few that do have more on the other side, such as Nortenham, Haylea and the bottom end of Cornfields.

As for the markings, I'm none the wiser. I mentioned PIA on my first reply to you on this thread and I'm guessing this is what it may be - easy, quick wins for any communications provider. Is there no way of checking with your local Council to get a definite answer ??

Thank you for all the additional information.

This morning's walk has taken a rather odd route as I've covered the locations of the 7 cabs that were installed by BDUK/Fastershire in Spring 2014 to cover the parts of the village that had no Virgin media coverage (which was, at that time installed by Telewest in the late 80s or very early 90s at a guess). Some of the large developments in the village in the last few years had Virgin media put in by the developer at time of construction and another large development has had BT FTTP installed (now verified with an address check) when they were built.

In the many streets around these 7 cabs that I have checked there are green sequential numbers on top of the BT covers in the street. The 5 cabs on one side of the A435 start from 100 and those on the other side start from 200.

I can find no evidence of any numbers anywhere else from the random selection that I have made.

So, from all of this so far possibles might be:

1) Virgin media looking to expand their footprint - there's nothing about this on their 'coming soon' listings on their website though
2) A 'quick win' from another provider (Gigaclear have done some work in the smaller hamlets about 5 miles away and IIRC they took over the local BDUK from Openreach - there is nothing on Gigaclear's website or the Fastershire website or social media feed for additional developments in the postcodes covered by the 7 cabs)
3) Openreach FTTP - looking unlikely if Black Sheep can't see any evidence for it - but it might be the easiest place for them to start as they have Fibre in place to these 7 cabs. The exchange was listed on the May 2021 pdf as an area that was in the rollout plan and this could be very preliminary work


I think I've missed the opportunity to see the 'lifters/painters' in action as I think I caught the tail end of the work at the end of last week as all the painted covers round by me are at the end of the numbering sequence that I've seen (i.e. in the 230s). There's nothing I can see around the location of any of the cabs for work about to commence on one.network and the planning applications that I saw up today where for the usual tree chopping and conservatory erection.

If anything else turns up I'll update the thread as other people might find this useful in the future.

** edit ** - I've just remembered that there are a couple of cul de sacs not far from here that have all of the Telewest/Virgin street furniture that was put in when the houses were build in 1997 (cabinets and pavement chambers marked CATV) where there isn't actually any cable infrastructure installed (I found this out when we were looking to buy a house on one of the streets) - I'll check tomorrow to see if there are any green numbers on the BT covers there as they are served from the FTTC cabinet that is pictured in an earlier post - that might help to narrow down/promote some of the potential items above
Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: spudgun on August 24, 2021, 01:44:26 PM
I've now had the opportunity to check out the street that is served by a FTTC cabinet, but also has Telewest/Virgin street furniture (but no cable infrastructure inside as it was never finished) and that has the same green markings on the BT covers - see picture. The 10/12 on the markings seems to be that this is the point at which the street branches off into a cul-de-sac and the green numbers 11 and 12 are in the cul-de-sac.

I think I can rule out the Virgin media expansion, so it is just a matter of waiting and seeing who turns up to act upon the markings that have been left.

I will update this as/when anything happens just in case anyone else sees something similar in their area at some point in the future.
Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: tickmike on August 24, 2021, 09:49:52 PM
@spudgun you do know that BT FTTP Does Not Come From a Cabinet !  :-\ ,
 It comes from a FTTP Headend exchange, our is not our local one 3 miles away but one 12 miles away in the next city .
Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on August 24, 2021, 10:24:29 PM
@spudgun you do know that BT FTTP Does Not Come From a Cabinet !  :-\ ,
 It comes from a FTTP Headend exchange, our is not our local one 3 miles away but one 12 miles away in the next city .

While true, the aggregation node is often close to a FTTC cabinet, as that's where the fibre links back to the exchange, so it can be relevant in determining where the fibre needs to go.

BS has already confirmed my agg is in the chamber directly next to my cabinet.
Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: spudgun on August 25, 2021, 02:00:54 PM
While true, the aggregation node is often close to a FTTC cabinet, as that's where the fibre links back to the exchange, so it can be relevant in determining where the fibre needs to go.

BS has already confirmed my agg is in the chamber directly next to my cabinet.

Thank you both for your input :-)

My apologies if I wasn't totally clear, but I am aware that FTTP doesn't directly come from the local cabinet, and as Alex notes above, the FTTC cabinets give an idea of where fibre is currently 'in the ground' and the nodes that will be built out from when FTTP comes.

Other than that, there is nothing to report. The contractors who were lifting the BT covers, using blue cords and leaving a notation on the BT covers have definitely only done this in the streets that are covered by the FTTC cabinets as I walked the dog down another bunch of streets today and have seen nothing. Hopefully some other contractors will turn up when I am around to notice them and I can obtain some more information

Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: spudgun on October 13, 2021, 04:36:40 PM
Some 6 weeks on from this, I can now present an end to the mystery of the green covers on the duct covers!

Came home from work today and there were several vans marked with Map Group Plc on (http://www.mapgroupuk.com/) in the area - I've had a chat with the very friendly people in the vans and they have been subcontracted by Virgin Media to expand their network in this area and are currently in the process of getting fibre into the ducts that BT/Openreach have already got in place for their copper cables.

The contractors also said that the work was complete in all the other areas and my area was the last one to do. I live on one of the streets where only the duct covers on one side of the street have green numbers on, so I'm not sure if I will be able to get these services, but I will see how this works out in the coming weeks and months.

Title: Re: FTTP: Green numbers painted on duct covers?
Post by: Black Sheep on October 13, 2021, 07:05:24 PM
Thank you for the feedback.

As mentioned in my reply to you at the top of OP, it's our friend PIA (Pain In the Arse) in all its glory. Not a big fan of this agreement, for selfish reasons, but totally understand why it's in place.  :)