Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: SE on July 07, 2021, 09:26:05 AM
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Hi
So what is a split leg and anyone know what this means
Also my us line attenuation was 28 now its 32 before lift and shift
My max attainable was 56 climing, now its 46 is that a dlm reset ?
"More time required: Run out of time on this job. n Details of work remaining Lift and shift after llums case cease has provided good port and speeds leaving at 80/20. Fast test.
----------------------n#Work done#
The line is proven and tagged to the PCP. nLine
The following have been confirmed as working OK:PCP / SCP terminations
----------------------nNotes from engineer:nLift and shift port change carried out after llums cease confirmed. Broadband speeds are now as predicted leaving ports at 80/20. Fast test is seeing split leg with router in sync at 37/6. I have run out of time for this task to find where split leg on d side from pcp28 is."
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@SE I believe a split leg is where at some point the pair from the cabinet is wrongly connected and is no longer a twisted pair. It is going down two wires but in different pairs so really bad for VDSL. Also not easy to find as there may be quite a lot of joints along the line and each one has to be checked. That's why the engineer ran out of time. At least the cabinet port looks OK now and the fault is known. Just need OR to fix it. :)
Not sure why your attenuation has changed but the split leg is the critical problem.
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Basics:
New line up to your local street cabinet shows 80/20 sync.
Engineer ran out of time to find the split issue on the distribution side between the street cabinet and your premises.
Lines are provided with two legs, and one of them is split.
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Like Real Ale Madrid says, your service is not being supplied over a twisted pair of wires, it is using one wire in each of two different pairs.
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It's absolutely shocking that OpenReach seem to think 80/20 at the cabinet is a working port.
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Stupid question but if the pair is split, how does the data get back to the cabinet, isn't it going to the wrong port
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The other port was 72 out so I was told, but my max attainable was 56-62, on the new one its 46
and the line att as gone up
The speed is a little faster but not as fast as before OR visited the first time and after a new router
They did say at first a bridge tap was there, now they say its a DLM falt :-\ caused it to say that
They also said they found a split pair and fixed it on the last visit
My house serves the copper to the rest and a youtuber gets 48+ and he's at lines end, I'm arms length away and still get 34
Would a line move fix this
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Stupid question but if the pair is split, how does the data get back to the cabinet, isn't it going to the wrong port
It isn't a single pair between the home and the cabinet. There are dozens of joints.
At the cabinet port it's a twisted pair.
At 1 of the joints along the way instead of the OP's twisted pair being joined to another twisted pair, it is split between 2 different twisted pairs, using 1 leg of each pair.
Further up the chain these 2 legs are joined back to a twisted pair again.
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Stupid question but if the pair is split, how does the data get back to the cabinet, isn't it going to the wrong port
A circuit doesn't know if the 2 wires that it is using belong to one pair or 2 discrete legs of 2 pairs. Whilst a port should be wired to a pair of wires, it is feasible that 2 ports are wired leg and leg to 2 different pairs. The split pair isn't necessarily all the way from the cab to the NTE, it could just be in one length of cable.
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Anyone know if a port move would force a line profile, DLM, brass reset and remove banding
It isn't a single pair between the home and the cabinet. There are dozens of joints.
At the cabinet port it's a twisted pair.
At 1 of the joints along the way instead of the OP's twisted pair being joined to another twisted pair, it is split between 2 different twisted pairs, using 1 leg of each pair.
Further up the chain these 2 legs are joined back to a twisted pair again.
:o and its under ground too, so I guess manholes
j0hn the isp site seems to be using the speed on the cab port as my speed...
Current Line Speed (Download): 72Mbps, and I guess if this ports good it will update to 80
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Anyone know if a port move would force a line profile, DLM, brass reset and remove banding
Is that not what the lift and shift was that was mentioned in the fault report, a lift and shift to a new port, or was this only cabinet side?
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It's absolutely shocking that OpenReach seem to think 80/20 at the cabinet is a working port.
I can imagine no sync is classed as a nonworking port, but this would suggest they only look for layer 2 connectivity.
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Is that not what the lift and shift was that was mentioned in the fault report, a lift and shift to a new port, or was this only cabinet side?
It was cab, they didn't say anything about the exchange and I didn't even think about the other end :blush:
The first guy said moving to a llu would fix the speed but the next one said that's ADSL not fttc
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I can imagine no sync is classed as a nonworking port, but this would suggest they only look for layer 2 connectivity.
The engineers hand-held testers (HHT) are set to connect to a working 'PPP session' .... proving the full connection ... not just the synch speed of 80/20 coming out of the DSLAM. We have 28,000 engineers (at the last count, I think ??), one man's terminology will differ to another's, it was basically saying though that the lift & shift went through and the correct speeds of 80/20 were obtained at the Cabinet.
A new port will only be given out if a decent 'Max attainable rate' is recorded against the HHT, when liaising on the phone with the FTTC helpdesk, they don't just look at the current connection speed.
The last test the engineer has to do is a 'Fast Test 2' test and if this doesn't come back with a LTOK (Line Tests OK) and handshake details with the EU's router, then the engineer will have to retain the task overnight and re-visit .... unless of course he's on A/L, sick, was working on a different patch etc.
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Well the new card has a 32 vs old 28 attenuation up
Is is it better to have lower attenuation with lower max attainable, or higer attenuation with maybe higher max attainable
After this visit, a engineer was in the poll wall box but not for us but next door, their internet is cutting out and he could only find one wire, not a pair, so he called the high level engineer to help
He came to us saying hes comming to look at whats going on with this all
Hes moving up from the cab to our box outside
Its all underground and the guy said even the poll wall box is old and has had many reports asking for a new one for years
Took four for a cover that didnt blow off
So thers about four houses afected with the one furthest away getting about 50
Tbh i dont think anything wlll help and it may be the isp
Sync drops to just over what the speed is if it was a speed cap, is that right?
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So after a LnS the attenuation went from 28.8 to 32 up, then after a guy came out again because OR needed to look for faults it went to 32.8 up
It was only after he replaced the wall poll box that it dropped to 29.8 up
Down was 15.4 after LnS 15.7, after line move 15.8
My line is 425m and a1 so im told, but he still moved the line :-\
My speed was 57, recontract down in mins to 36, then a few months ago sysc 47, speed 31.5
I found a work place profile set to 31.5 as OR told them too
Oh before OR my speed was 36.5/6.5
This is after a LnS, & line move...
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The GEA test has failed, the line is faulty, the current traffic count which if we assume is the full 15 minutes is showing 789 Errored seconds out of 900 seconds which is hopeless. What happened about the split pair, it doesn't look they have fixed it yet. I don't know what the line move you are mentioning is about, is it moving your line to a different pair, maybe there aren't any spare pairs so you are stuck with a dud. >:(
I guess Openreach will be back to have another go.
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Warning long disjointed ramble, no sleep, stress :-X
Hi sorry bad internet now
It's messed up :'(
PN complaints guy said it was the last time they would fix it and sent me a free to leave email
I'm out of contract and paying £55pm so I know >:(
The thing is I didn't ask for any call outs, it was half ISP and half engineer callouts to others because of a mess
After a new router and the split pair on the card it was snappy, low ping, very fast loading of videos and file downloads with a speed of 6.5u 36.5d
But the speed for a 425m line A1 btw so they said, used to be 55~57 but then was 36
They said it was a bad port and I needed a LnS, after that a few days ago they guys who did it called out more saying the fast test found a split leg
A guy who was supposed to be high up but said he only understans wires not the cabs or exchange side came out to supposably walk and test the copper from the cab to the wall poll box to find the part where it lost speed
He didn't, he swapped my line out to the manhole with one that bumped the attenuation from 15.7 to 15.9 (it was 15.4 before the LnS)
Up was 28 then a LnS later 32, the a not wanted line move caused 32.9
The last thing he did replace the old wet rusty wall poll box knocked about 3 or 4 off it
If they had replaced that first it may have been lower and the line move and LnS may have not been needed
Before OR sync was 47 (31.5 speed ISP cap wpp) then sync 40, dl speed 36, max attainable was 62, then 58, 47
going back up from 47 after first call outs to 58
Now after the last two the max attain is 44 with a sync of 35
Speed 28-34 slow load laggy internet
Sorry this is confusing its a lot of info and too many visits
Since the port swap to a bad port I guess and a line swap to a bad line I never wanted it's bad
PN said that's it
Oh th last guy who was supposed to look for the dropoff said the line is not slowing you down its two things either the cab or something else but he didn't want to say
He was calling PN and the cab guys and said I'd see his report
But the report the ISP showed me said the speed was ok and max it could do!
It's half what it could do and it was 36.5 before visits, now 28-34
More like OR told PN to set it to 31.5 :-\
And i said to the guy the attenuation was up from 28 to 32.9 but he said it's the DLM
That's not right? More like bad line now, bad port, bad joins?
Looking at line length 425 charts say 57 and I got that
I did find on a chart test from PN with a OR recommendation of a app cap of 31.5
Even though I was getting 57 then
Sorry this is a dump and confusing, I'm shattered with all the stuff we've had done and the waiting
I think it was, is a rusty box, split pair, ISP and OR up to no good
Not a bad card or split leg, as he didn't find one he said
The max attain is down, speed down and the errors roll off
If he gets 34 and had 57, max att 62 and he complains, make his line so low he can't get over the lower package id say :(
Why swap a A1 line
I wish I could have my old port back and line, I guess the know the port but not the line
The line is 425 and the guy walked down to the cab, the speed for that is 57
The BT tester says it's 725 but loads of engineers have said it's 425
But the speed t say for a 725 line is 34
He didn't go anyware but down to the cab at 425
Are or capping my line because the computers say 725
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@SE
Try and get some sleep, the above sounds utterly exhausting.
I think first and foremost you need an ISP that cares.
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my line is approx 350m according to their testers, and your sync speed at 425m seems too low. So their equipment might be right.
Ultimately though a fix is not guaranteed, openreach are aware crosstalk can reduce speed, and if they determine the loss of speed is down to that or any repair would be too expensive to fix they may say it is what it is, product within spec.
You could try jumping to aaisp, see if they put more pressure on and get you better performance (can do short term contract if you got no intention of staying with them long term), also what is the estimated speed of your line on BT wholesale checker?
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Let's put to bed any conspiracy theories that OR are up to no good, not bothered, capping lines .... or any of the other stuff that exasperated customers tend to jump to.
The fault process that ensues after an issue has been reported by a customer, is very straightforward and was agreed by collaboration between the ISP's and OR. The one thing in the testing process that folk tend to ignore/skip over is the oft unmentioned term 'cone of acceptance'. This protects both the EU and OR from shoddy workmanship and pedantic reporting issues (regulars on this forum will know what I mean by that).
The days of the engineer deciding if the fault has been fixed are long behind us ... the faulting process has a suite of agreed tests to perform whereby the results are captured and the software informs the engineer if the circuit is testing within the 'cone of acceptance'.
Now, add to the mix that if you the customer re-report your circuit as faulty, this also flags on our internal systems as a 're-report' ... this is akin to armed-robbery within the OR hierarchy and if your re-reports go above a certain percentage, sh1t happens. So, although I can't comment on your individual circumstances, your expectations of your circuit versus the science (such as crosstalk), or the work the engineers have actually done that you probably may not be witness to .... what I can say is that IF there is a massive problem that still exists with your circuit, both OR and your ISP's systems will have sight of it. Every single nano-second of the broadband's performance is captured for historic viewing.
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@SE
Try and get some sleep, the above sounds utterly exhausting.
I think first and foremost you need an ISP that cares.
Thanks :)
Had some sleep and feel more human :-[
It's been a bad xp
We had to put things off to get this fixed, and with one out then that one calling others
And with the cab wiping out a lot of people, I guess it got mixed in with all that
One test showing this and that problem and so on
What gets me, looking back at stats I found was I was on a 31.5 wpp cap even though it was sync 47 max att 63
And then seeing a test from the ISP with wpp 31.5 recommended by OR
They knew about that and at first said nothing :o
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Let's put to bed any conspiracy theories that OR are up to no good, not bothered, capping lines .... or any of the other stuff that exasperated customers tend to jump to.
The fault process that ensues after an issue has been reported by a customer, is very straightforward and was agreed by collaboration between the ISP's and OR. The one thing in the testing process that folk tend to ignore/skip over is the oft unmentioned term 'cone of acceptance'. This protects both the EU and OR from shoddy workmanship and pedantic reporting issues (regulars on this forum will know what I mean by that).
The days of the engineer deciding if the fault has been fixed are long behind us ... the faulting process has a suite of agreed tests to perform whereby the results are captured and the software informs the engineer if the circuit is testing within the 'cone of acceptance'.
Now, add to the mix that if you the customer re-report your circuit as faulty, this also flags on our internal systems as a 're-report' ... this is akin to armed-robbery within the OR hierarchy and if your re-reports go above a certain percentage, sh1t happens. So, although I can't comment on your individual circumstances, your expectations of your circuit versus the science (such as crosstalk), or the work the engineers have actually done that you probably may not be witness to .... what I can say is that IF there is a massive problem that still exists with your circuit, both OR and your ISP's systems will have sight of it. Every single nano-second of the broadband's performance is captured for historic viewing.
I understand, but a few mins into a new contract the router restarted and I went from 55 57 down (cat6pc I was downloading) to 36
The contract was not agreed upon by me
They called my wife said your model is old do you want a new one (router not me lol)
She said yes and that was it new contract
That's was the start
Google pn recontract and you see down from a high speed to 36 a lot and it's mostly pn and now bt too
After that, it went to 31.5 and only after months of asking did they admit they had a speed profile in place, a wpp
They should have said this before getting us to pay for routers and so on
Yes the cabs bad but a few mins past 12 a 40% drop that's strange and as they now say after I saw it, it was a on cap but I paid £55 at the time for 80/20 package (57)
My speed was 31.5 my guaranteed min was then 47, this was this year, the hand back was about 38 or so (I'll look)
The first contract min guarantee was about 55
The so called guarantee is rubbish because it's dynamic
When the cab was wiping out the speeds for many, and when I for a few days got 28 down the isle I looked at garantee was 28, before all this it's was far higher
That just goes off what they see at the time of the lines slowest speed
So if your line dropped while or did work to say 5 that's what the min would be even if you went back to say 70
Let's hope fttp come soon ;)
In the end what can you do
They have a bad cab bad hardware but seem to have given up on fttc and don't want to throw money at it when fttp is out soon
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Pretty sure they can't "give up on FTTC", as they are contracted to provide that service to the ISPs.
Even if they rolled out FTTP tomorrow, that wouldn't mean they can move all customers over as not all ISPs will have the right cable links, not all customers have compatible routers, etc.
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Pretty sure they can't "give up on FTTC", as they are contracted to provide that service to the ISPs.
Even if they rolled out FTTP tomorrow, that wouldn't mean they can move all customers over as not all ISPs will have the right cable links, not all customers have compatible routers, etc.
That's what the engineer blamed the bad cab on, fttp
My internet had dropped about 4 X in the last two hours :(
Before all this it was solid for years
In the end my internet is bad, the young couple 3 down lost their internet a day ago
OR only found one wire :-\
They use mobiles so I guess they never knew, but how would it pass a fitting test as it's new
It's all string and tape around this place, only took several years to get a cover for the poll box even though they came out many times to it ???
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I'm struggling to keep up with the changes you mention - but it initially smacks of the ISP dropping your package from 'up to 80Mbps', to one of the lesser packages such as 'up to 55Mbps, or 'up to 40Mbps' - yet you mentioned the engineer commented the new port that had undergone a L&S, was working at 80/20.
As I've alluded to, I can sit here all day and think of instances and issues but all they will be is my thoughts. Your ace-up-the-sleeve is historic data if you have access to it ?? Take a few piccies of when you were on 55Mbps, (they'd have to be up to date and not from a year ago, as cross-talk kills circuits when more customers connect to your Cab), and then take piccies of your new stats.
Not going back through the post but you may have previously had a 3dB profile and also G.INP may not have been applied yet to the new circuit. Both have a significant effect on speed.
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Sorry Mr B
It's been well about 9 engineers in not to many days :-[ so loads of info or miss info
OR don't seem to be as good as in 2015
They won't I'm told fix the cab as it's too much trouble, saying fttp soon, (soon 1 to 5 years)
I informed OR complaints and they are getting the local OR to sort it
But I'm told to just move isps and not wait any longer
The offered me speed 1 and 2 now after this only 1, up to 36
It's been Resetting a lot tonight so it's going to get better or maybe not :)
The downloads seem to take 2x as long and it's laggy
I guess it's the errors
I've asked them to confirm my line is 425 not 725
I've give up and won't be talked into more call outs :no:
Thx :)
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I would concentrate on the issue at hand which is the line errors and outages.
If when resolving that you get better speed, consider it a bonus, if they resolve that and your speed is within estimates, then its working, you then decide if want to take up the isp's offer of leaving contract.
So my question, I will only ask this once more, do you have the "current" estimates from the BT wholesale checker?
Also are you monitoring the line so can see any outages and errored seconds? Bear in mind some errored seconds are normal, its whether they are high enough to be service impacting, I am asking for this because of the GEA test that was posted.
As far as I know (black sheep I am sure will correct me if I am wrong), a engineer if he does some work, will retest things after the work, it seems odd an engineer would consciously move you to a bad port and then close the job, if it was bad he would change it again I expect or move you back.
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SE - no need for apologies mate - I only get to jump one here for minutes at a time these days and have to flick through things sharpish, so an elongated list of repairs sometimes doesn't sink in, sometimes.
Chrys has given sage advice as to what to concentrate on and also to find out what the estimate checker reveals ??
The one thing I can comment on with a level of certainty, is the OR processes ... the engineer can not close a job off as 'complete' if a fault has been identified on one of the three compulsory tests they have to do (Fast Test, Pair Quality Test <PQT> and DSL test).
As mooted previously, the engineer can not manipulate the test results either, to suit, they are all 'scripted' tests .... cheating, by performing the test in a different location other than the customer premises is very easy to identify, by viewing the historic leg-balance/leg capacitance results.
The fact your circuit has had previous faulty test results is generally a good thing for the engineer, they at least have something they can go and fault-find, as opposed to a circuit that tests electrically sound but is facing issues.
I certainly wouldn't give up if you are absolutely adamant you are correct with your expectation of the circuit ??
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Thanks all I do apologize if it's a info overload ???
It has been for us too
Too many OR cooks I think with the call outs
Well the errors are slowing a bit, sadly the speed when downloading or watching online films can , well, stop
So coms and arma3 would be a no-no now after OR
Yes in the end 33 with a good live conection is better than 57 or 47 with drops (not that is dropped then)
Sadly the ISP has told me that's its no more help for me even though they wanted to push OR to make them fix it
even when I told them the port move may be bad and I've got a new problem, it's was no, leave
I got a message passed down from complaints telling to I can go if I don't like it, and they said openreach said I can leave the network as they will not help even if they killed a slow but working internet
Sad thing is after the ISP cap was removed and I got a new router I got 36.5d 6.5u
A new ISP who weeks ago said they can offer 56, Min 47 now offers min 28, max 32, 5.2 up :(
Can you guys tell me...
1) Is my line banded now?
2) when moving from a ISP that had me capped at 31.5 (sync 47 min) should I move to a 40/10 and a month later upgrade to a 80/20 to shake off any ISP package restrictions or OR profiles as one ISP said? Or just a 80/20 and let the ISP buy that package from OR and see what I get :fingers:
3) Where is the 80/20 set, is it soft at ISP or at the exchange hardware?
The closing from the ISP was that OR sent out their top high level guy who fix it all
The guy was a manhole guy and told my wife he knew nothing about cabs or the exchange side of things :-\
He told us he was calling OR and PN and it was cab or other, not line at fault, but the report the ISP put up was like it was from someone who didn't do the work
The report said he tested the test socket and connected the router.
he never came in :-X
No good when a ISP who you paid 3x more too tells you to go and won't even tell you the stats now, like is it fast or mid, or is error correction on or off :-\
Thanks guys, sorry about info dumps, it was info overload :-[
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What are the OR estimates? You need to answer this as others have asked to move forward. Nothing else just the OR estimates
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Can you enter your address on the BT Wholesale Availability Checker and post the VDSL estimates.
https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL
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What are the OR estimates? You need to answer this as others have asked to move forward. Nothing else just the OR estimates
I was just updating from th ISP chat this afternoon
They reconfirmed they won't help
The or ests are now 53d from 63d 9u from 12u
Modem saying 53 too
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What are the OR estimates? You need to answer this as others have asked to move forward. Nothing else just the OR estimates
Yeah I didn't see that q as I was speed reading and sorting out the ISP and or complaints to ofcom
I'll post now
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Can you enter your address on the BT Wholesale Availability Checker and post the VDSL estimates.
Sorry j0hn just found page 3 :-[
The copper is not impacted it's clean so about 1000 engineers have said
Got the pic to right mb
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Can you send a screenshot of that as your answer not clear. I think we should see this and then advise further.
The ISP might be somewhat confused, rather than refusing
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You mentioned 53d but that figure isn’t mentioned at all. You should be getting a minimum of 41.5d if not impacted, or 35d if impacted.
You seem to be getting that ?
Unfortunately what it used to be isn’t a valid argument. How are you suffering with the current speeds in using?
I can do everything including streaming 4K with 23d
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Found this from after ISP wpp bump up
But befor LnS
Found this from after ISP wpp bump up
But befor LnS
The last one was when the ISP wpp cap was in place 31.5
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So how or what does that tell us ?
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BT speedtest is not reliable, use Speedtest.net or Thinkbroadband.com.
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Bear in mind the sync speed is likely higher if the figures provided are speedtest results. The BTw estimate is sync speed not throughput.
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Bear in mind the sync speed is likely higher if the figures provided are speedtest results. The BTw estimate is sync speed not throughput.
Now then - I think that is probably where a certain amount of confusion lies here with SE ?? Just my guess.
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A download speed of 31.46 is not an ISP cap of 31.5Mb
You wouldn't get near 31.46 with a cap of 31.5
As mentioned a few times over a few threads, ISP's don't cap.
It's the DLM that caps (banding) and they cap the sync speed.
Downloads are always below the sync speed as there are overheads involved.
What modem are you using and does it show any connection stats?
Note that we have the lines estimates it would be good to see how it's actually performing.
There's an ISP test above showing a sync of 37/5.7 but I have no idea if that is current or not.
The BT speed test result you have posted shows an upstream higher than 5.7 but as mentioned this test isn't reliable.
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My sync was about 60 when 55 57
It was 47 in spring but i got 31.5 i had a wwp and a static ip thats bad if the isp forgets to keep an eye on it
Sync was 47 until cab copper move, then as i put at the time 40
Now its 37
I know about sync and real world overheads i e been using, fixing, building computers since 1985 ;)
The speed test available site is dynamic as just monts ago it said 63 max, min 47 if i remember. Not worth a thing as its a snap in time
When the cab was moved it said max 28d 0.5u then went on to explain that was a good rate for my line
Then the guy next dorrs said adsl only even though he had vdsl
The hand back was 47 on the isp AND thats dynamic
No matter what the sync was it never went over 31.5 pn found a 31.5 wpp and removed it but it was too late, it was syncing at about 40 so got 36 rw
We feed copper to the rest and a guy i know at the end run gets 50 ish
Hes a youtuber so may have a business line not sure
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I saw the cap a wpp at pn, its what they use and that was set to that for years im told
The speed i got was 31.5, when it was removed it went to 36.5 i will find the screens later
The bt or stats are not worth the paper they aren't written on
How fast is this FZR1000, err as fast as you got out of it, and thats normal :lol:
Syncing at 47 stuck @ 31 till wpp removed and stat ip
Now 37 so no way over 33-34
First or guy got 47 but i got 40 because of bad router
New router helped with qos and the rest but then sync stuck at 40 till or
Anyway thats a mute point, my internet had gone off 8x in 12 hrs so i may have to go wireless
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@SE
Sorry I'm unable to decipher the shorthand jargon.
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Im afraid I was just going to make the same comment. Perhaps a short simple confirmation of the sync speeds you currently have just on their own with no history as I’m not sure where @se is now
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I have no problem with anyone having a go at either an ISP or Openreach if a customer is not getting the service they are paying for. I hope the broadband fault is found and fixed.
However no matter how frustrated someone may be when experiencing a line fault, I do not tolerate name calling and/or abusive language towards other members who are trying to help. Thread locked as the user will not be able to respond.