Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => Telephony Wiring + Equipment => Topic started by: dslexpert on June 07, 2021, 12:31:36 PM

Title: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: dslexpert on June 07, 2021, 12:31:36 PM
Hello,

As many of you are aware, Openreach plan on turning off all analogue phone lines in 2025.  There's a lot of information on this out there - some obsolete, some incorrect and some conflicting. DrayTek's guides have attempted to bring all of the relevant information together into one place.  Of course, it'll be out of date in 5 minutes if Openreach change the plans, but hopefully it's useful and we hope that you enjoy it :-)

We've put a lot of effort in, and the articles are vendor agnostic (i.e. we're not trying to sell or promote anything in them) so we hope you will share the links:

The End of Analogue - Part 1 (https://www.draytek.co.uk/information/blog/the-end-of-analogue-phone-lines-pt1)
The End of Analogue - Part 2 (https://www.draytek.co.uk/information/blog/the-end-of-analogue-phone-lines-pt2)


Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: burakkucat on June 07, 2021, 04:31:37 PM
Welcome to the Kitz forum.  :)

From you wording of the above post, I have to ask if you are a DrayTek employee?
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on June 07, 2021, 07:48:25 PM
Quote
the actual phone service is a revenue generator
This is what puzzles me about them not combining VoIP into the ONT.  You'd think it would be easier to offer a guaranteed QoS VoIP service that way and continue to generate revenue from a phone service, plus far easier to roll out to none tech-savvy users.

I guess the cost of a more expensive ONT and potentially maintaining their own VoIP network outweighed that revenue?  Or was it an OFCOM thing where that would be seen as anti-competitive?
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: g3uiss on June 07, 2021, 08:13:56 PM
I really donít think thatís going to happen, or in that time scale.
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on June 07, 2021, 08:38:54 PM
Interesting tag on part 2 BT Openreachreach.
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: dslexpert on June 08, 2021, 02:26:32 PM
Welcome to the Kitz forum.  :)

From you wording of the above post, I have to ask if you are a DrayTek employee?

I am, but I'm here unofficially but as long as I don't reveal any secrets or say anything bad I think I'll be okay :-)
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: dslexpert on June 08, 2021, 02:30:42 PM
This is what puzzles me about them not combining VoIP into the ONT.  You'd think it would be easier to offer a guaranteed QoS VoIP service that way and continue to generate revenue from a phone service, plus far easier to roll out to none tech-savvy users.

I guess the cost of a more expensive ONT and potentially maintaining their own VoIP network outweighed that revenue?  Or was it an OFCOM thing where that would be seen as anti-competitive?

Openreach provide the termination and are only allowed to provide connectivity to ISPs, not services to consumers - that was the whole point of the BT/Openreach split, so yes, it's about competition. The ONU/Router will provide the phone sockets if the ISP/Telco wants to provide it.   The BT ONU/Router has phone ports and DECT (see part 2) but the idea of analogue phone sockets will probably be obsolete as everyone moves to native IP. The only analogue bit will be your ear :-)
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: dslexpert on June 08, 2021, 02:31:43 PM
Interesting tag on part 2 BT Openreachreach.

It's a top secret sub-division...
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: meritez on June 08, 2021, 04:47:02 PM
It's a top secret sub-division...

Not a sub-sub-division-divison?
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: 4candles on June 08, 2021, 05:35:25 PM
It's a top secret sub-division...

Er - was top secret.   ;)
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: dslexpert on June 08, 2021, 09:22:29 PM
Er - was top secret.   ;)

Dammit... you never saw me, right?
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: kitz on June 08, 2021, 11:33:49 PM
@dslexpert  - Hello and welcome to the forums.

Thank you for posting those links,  I was just about to settle down to read them...  and noticed ....  how weird as I'm sure that I stumbled across your own website within the past week or so. 
 
It was one of those journeys when you start off looking at something about your own exchange.  See something about the history and then end up following links to else to so on and so on.. and before you know it several hours have lapsed.  I can't recall all websites I did visit, but I ended up watching some YouTube vids where Alice(?) was maintaining some old exchange telephony equip.

Anyhow enough of the sidetrack and back to reading the articles you linked to. 
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: dslexpert on June 09, 2021, 05:02:06 PM

If you want some really nerdy 'old exchange stuff' SEG still have their very old page here (last updated 22 years ago!).
https://www.seg.co.uk/telecomm/
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: craigv on June 09, 2021, 06:57:38 PM
Thanks for the articles & welcome :)

This is what puzzles me about them not combining VoIP into the ONT.  You'd think it would be easier to offer a guaranteed QoS VoIP service that way and continue to generate revenue from a phone service, plus far easier to roll out to none tech-savvy users.

I was wondering something similar. If my nearly 80-year-old nan had to install and configure router/equipment just to use her phone line, her head would probably explode.

On the flip side, having the ISP's equipment being responsible for giving access to a VoIP service keeps it fully within the provider's control without Openreach needing to poke their oar in, which would be the case if this was part of the line terminating equipment?

Fwiw, today I finished porting my BT landline over to Sipgate and it was relatively painless (besides an admin cockup on their side). Rewired my telephone extensions to be connected into the VoIP port of the router so nothing appears to have changed apart from there being £22.15 I'm not chucking at BT each month!

C
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: peteS on June 09, 2021, 08:17:51 PM
Thanks for the articles & welcome :)

I was wondering something similar. If my nearly 80-year-old nan had to install and configure router/equipment just to use her phone line, her head would probably explode.

On the flip side, having the ISP's equipment being responsible for giving access to a VoIP service keeps it fully within the provider's control without Openreach needing to poke their oar in, which would be the case if this was part of the line terminating equipment?

Fwiw, today I finished porting my BT landline over to Sipgate and it was relatively painless (besides an admin cockup on their side). Rewired my telephone extensions to be connected into the VoIP port of the router so nothing appears to have changed apart from there being £22.15 I'm not chucking at BT each month!

C

I want to go down this route as well - move my landline to voipfone - but I've been told that as soon as there's no phone line associated with the cable, openreach will cease the line.  That's a non-starter for me since that's the cable on which my fttc comes in - fttp isn't available.  Did you manage to keep an fttc connection, or are you perhaps already on fttp so losing the copper service completely isn't a problem.

I guess I want to convert my existing line to SOGEA, but there doesn't seem to be a way to do that.  Or even for now, move the number to voip and just get another random number assigned to keep the phone service (and therefore fttp) active whilst they get things better sorted.

A new number on the current copper does has some benefits - not least that we have a monitored house alarm, which uses the phone line and which I'll have to get something done to at some point.
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on June 09, 2021, 08:20:49 PM
I want to go down this route as well - move my landline to voipfone - but I've been told that as soon as there's no phone line associated with the cable, openreach will cease the line.  That's a non-starter for me since that's the cable on which my fttc comes in - fttp isn't available.  Did you manage to keep an fttc connection, or are you perhaps already on fttp so losing the copper service completely isn't a problem.

Unfortunately that is correct, if you port the number you lose the line as its all tied together.
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: peteS on June 09, 2021, 08:30:24 PM
Unfortunately that is correct, if you port the number you lose the line as its all tied together.

Yep - that's what I thought.  REALLY annoying though as surely that's what most people will want to do - leave the broadband alone and just cease the analogue voice by moving it to voip.  No doubt BT will let you do exactly this - so long as everything stays on BT....
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: j0hn on June 09, 2021, 08:54:52 PM
If it's a bundled voice+broadband service then migrating the landline number to VOIP effectively migrates the entire service.

The ISP simply gets a notification from the VOIP provider that you are migrating your number.
The ISP then notifies you that you are leaving them.

In such a scenario your contract with the ISP is for both voice and broadband. Migrating the entire service is handled by number making it tricky to split the services.

OpenReach have a feature called "renumber with number export".
This allows you to renumber your bundled service then migrate the existing number to VOIP, without interrupting the current broadband.
Sadly none of the big ISP's support renumber with number export. It's a chargeable service from OpenReach.

You can now take broadband only packages with BT, but if you're an existing customer you will find it tricky to split the number from the broadband.
It requires migrating away to an ISP that supports renumber with export, or just migrating to VOIP and ceasing the line, while reactivating it the very next day as broadband only.
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: craigv on June 09, 2021, 09:54:15 PM
@peteS Alas no, I originally enquired about doing it over 2 years ago whilst still on FTTC, and it wasn't until FTTP became available and therefore I was ditching my FTTC that this became feasible :(

Renumber with number export sounds like a super useful feature, especially if OR are pushing customers towards VoIP solutions, maybe in the future it'll become more commonplace? *blind hope*  :fingers:

According to sipgate, the process for porting numbers to some VoIP providers is slightly different to those providers with closer ties to Openreach? They were super clear that the line must remain active whilst the number is ported away, whereas those within OR can retrospectively port? *shrugs*

Anyway my Nan and the Indian scammers, who are the only people who call my landline are happy I kept my number  ;)
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on June 09, 2021, 10:00:51 PM
I assume I can move my Zen service from FTTC to FTTP and THEN port my number without issue, as the line rental is still with BT on my line?

Or will will things trip up and I have to order a fresh FTTP service THEN port the number - which in turn would cancel the FTTC?
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: craigv on June 09, 2021, 10:05:01 PM
I assume I can move my Zen service from FTTC to FTTP and THEN port my number without issue, as the line rental is still with BT on my line?

Or will will things trip up and I have to order a fresh FTTP service THEN port the number - which in turn would cancel the FTTC?

When I spoke to Zen about this, I'm sure they said you can switch FTTC -> FTTP then port. The FTTP is a new line, so once the transfer has completed, you'll be free to do what you like with the remaining copper landline, FTTP won't be ceased if the copper line service is.
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: j0hn on June 09, 2021, 10:41:31 PM
I assume I can move my Zen service from FTTC to FTTP and THEN port my number without issue, as the line rental is still with BT on my line?

As it isn't a bundled service then that will be ok.

The BT copper landline would continue.
The Zen FTTC would terminate and FTTP would be provisioned separately.

As technically the BT line is required for your Zen broadband it might be different to order.
It might need ordered as a cease of the FTTC, and a separate order for the FTTP,

Having PSTN from X and DSL from Y is becoming much rarer.
Best ask Zen.
Definitely not as complicated as a bundled voice/broadband migration to VOIP though.
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: peteS on June 09, 2021, 10:51:11 PM
If it's a bundled voice+broadband service then migrating the landline number to VOIP effectively migrates the entire service.

The ISP simply gets a notification from the VOIP provider that you are migrating your number.
The ISP then notifies you that you are leaving them.

In such a scenario your contract with the ISP is for both voice and broadband. Migrating the entire service is handled by number making it tricky to split the services.

OpenReach have a feature called "renumber with number export".
This allows you to renumber your bundled service then migrate the existing number to VOIP, without interrupting the current broadband.
Sadly none of the big ISP's support renumber with number export. It's a chargeable service from OpenReach.

You can now take broadband only packages with BT, but if you're an existing customer you will find it tricky to split the number from the broadband.
It requires migrating away to an ISP that supports renumber with export, or just migrating to VOIP and ceasing the line, while reactivating it the very next day as broadband only.

Thanks John - at least there is a service which gives the possibility.  I know my ISP (Aquiss) doesn't support this at the moment, but I've asked if there's anything on the horizon.
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: j0hn on June 09, 2021, 11:14:24 PM
I'm surprised Aquiss aren't flexible enough to manually order you a renumber with export and just pass on the OpenReach charge.

Try messaging their rep on the ThinkBroadband forums. He's a helpful, knowledgeable chap.

https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/showprofile.php?User=aquiss&Board=btsupplier&Number=4654490&what=showflat&vc=1

The issue is with the bigger ISP's it's impossible to get someone to manually order such a niche item and then bill for it.
I don't know why smaller ISP's can't just bill you an admin charge and process it manually.
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: banger on June 10, 2021, 01:37:21 AM
@dslexpert

Very interesting articles, although seems like a lot of work when trying to connect existing extensions to VOIP.
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on June 10, 2021, 01:53:40 AM
@dslexpert

Very interesting articles, although seems like a lot of work when trying to connect existing extensions to VOIP.

Especially as if you do it wrong you could be sending it back out the copper pair.

It baffles me why anyone would use wired phones any more unless its a darn big house as DECT is so convenient.
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: jaydub on June 10, 2021, 08:08:09 AM
Especially as if you do it wrong you could be sending it back out the copper pair.

It baffles me why anyone would use wired phones any more unless its a darn big house as DECT is so convenient.

We still use a wired extension in our hall, as the extension socket is located where we want the phone and there is no mains socket anywhere near.

The speaker in our Panasonic DECTs are very poor compared to our wired in phone, so it does sometimes get used out of choice.
Title: Re: DrayTek's Guide to the 'Great Analogue Switch Off'
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on June 10, 2021, 09:10:11 PM
We still use a wired extension in our hall, as the extension socket is located where we want the phone and there is no mains socket anywhere near.

The speaker in our Panasonic DECTs are very poor compared to our wired in phone, so it does sometimes get used out of choice.

Good example.