Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Hardware => Topic started by: mogsiewp on May 28, 2021, 12:54:38 PM
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I have recently connected Nest Wifi to the HG612 in the UK on a FTTC connection on a PPPoe connection.
Nest handles PPPoe with the HG612 bridged.
Unfortunately I am experiencing intermittent wireless dropouts on various devices at different times.
The internet connection stays solid in these periods.
A ping monitor on the nest router ip address shows it available periodically.
Google insist the instability is caused as my ISP is using VLAN tagging.
Reviewing the modem configuration I can see the WAN tag configured as 101, and what I thought meant LAN VLAN disabled.
ie. the LAN 802.1q setting is diabled
Can anyone confirm if this setting does indeed mean there is no VLAN tagging on the LAN side?
many thanks
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Welcome to the kitz forum. :)
Can anyone confirm if this setting does indeed mean there is no VLAN tagging on the LAN side?
You are correct. The two VLANs established from within the HG612 (out over the WAN interface) are tagged 101, which is essential for the service to operate, and 301, which is non-essential. The latter can be deleted as it was used in the early days of the UK's VDSL2 roll-out to monitor the VDSL2 link behaviour and remotely push updated firmware to the device.
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Dam. Nest WiFi just started dropping device connections again. Google insist there is vlan tagging but these setting say different. They say I have to put a managed switch between modem and router to strip tagging.
They concluded this because the default gateway doesn't configure to a .1 or .254 address mine is .120. none of this makes any sense?
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none of this makes any sense?
Agreed. What you have been told is pure nonsense.
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Dam. Nest WiFi just started dropping device connections again. Google insist there is vlan tagging but these setting say different. They say I have to put a managed switch between modem and router to strip tagging.
They concluded this because the default gateway doesn't configure to a .1 or .254 address mine is .120. none of this makes any sense?
What the heck are they on about? I wouldn't EVER expect an actual WAN connection to end in .1 or .254, that's generally what the LAN gateway would use (though not mandatory). I guess they're used to people incorrectly putting it behind an existing router in a double-NAT.
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They are talking about the wan default gateway IP address. They insist that due to the fact it ends in 172.xx.xx.120 that the connection (Lan) connection still has vlan tagging.
The 172 address is an internal one yes?
I know some of the early hg612s used 172 IPS. Coincidence?
What sets a wan default gateway IP? ISP?
If so how does it land up with 172.. internal IP?
I understand ip bridged and pppoe bridged mode are different.mine is former. Does it matter which?
Google support stinks!
All help really appreciated.
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Sorry quick addition.
Found this secret google status page which exposes more data.
Maybe useful?
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They are talking about the wan default gateway IP address. They insist that due to the fact it ends in 172.xx.xx.120 that the connection (Lan) connection still has vlan tagging.
The 172 address is an internal one yes?
Not necessarily. :no:
The block 172.16.0.0 to 172.31.255.255 inclusive is one of the three private IPv4 address (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1918) ranges. As you have shown 172.xx.xx.120, above, it is impossible to say whether the address in question is from the private RFC1918 block or is publicly routeable. The first "xx" holds the key. If it is less than 16 or greater than 31 then it is a publicly routeable IPv4 address.
[Edited to fix typo.]
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It's 172.16.12.120.
From what you just said to then it is private.
The full details are in attachment above.
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I am baffled and at a total loss. ???
Perhaps CarlT will offer an opinion?
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Me too.
Is the 172x the modems IP?
The router is on 192.168.86.x
So Google say this 172 gateway indicates vlan on the lan because it doesn't end in 1 or 254.
What would a routers default gateway normally be? A public ISP IP?
I've read about other settings like DHCP transparency and the pppoe bridge mode but feel i' m just guessing.
I wouldn't have bought a router that needs a modem and managed switch all seems ridiculous.
Hopefully someone will have some insight
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The thing is in bridge mode its blindly forwarding traffic between the VLAN and the LAN1 ethernet port, no other traffic can be on that port so its confusing where this is coming from. It certainly can't put anything on the PPP interface.
The HG612 LAN IP is in the 192.168 range, I can't remember specifically.
Its all very confusing. I was going to ponder if it was CG-NAT by your ISP, but I don't think that is on the 172. range. None of this should cause wireless drop outs anyway, the question would be if the PPP session is dropping.
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Also, why isn't the internet users from uk full of people complaining.
There are some with similar issues but not loads.
I've had a ping monitor on the router and seen intermittent dropouts, with the onhub stats (see above) showing wan uptime solids (it's in seconds)
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Perhaps I'm talking at cross purposes here but I get a 172.16.xx.xxx address as the hop after my router if I do a tracert on my BT VDSL service. Although a private address I'm assuming it's actually the gateway to the BT network? Is this what Goggle are going on about?
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Yes.
They say if the last set of digits isn't 1 or 254 that there is vlan tagging.
If this is a bt allocated gateway address ie. Wan based, that would be true as it's 101 there.
Given nearly all UK is bt backbone can't see it will ever be 1 or 254
But there article on vlan connections says to put a managed switch or VDSL router between the modem the modem and nest router.
Google then say it will be stable.
But the modem has the lan vlan configured to disabled already but maybe that's not the point.
Maybe there Google specific features like cloud services which are integral part of it can't deal with tags being added. Who knows.
But a managed switch would just add them.
So why not the modem?
What would switch do that modem doesn't?
Can I test presence of tags on Lan?
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The BT default gateway will be a 172.16.xx.xx private address which is the address of the BRAS. My gateway is 172.16.12.3
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Sorry what's Bras?
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Broadband Remote Access Server, where your broadband comes from.
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Google are talking total nonsense. Their article is to enable you to add VLAN tagging when required via a switch or modem/router because their box can't do it. If you have an HG612 and the connection is basically working then the HG612 is handling the VLAN for you and you don't need any more hardware. In fact if you added a switch and duplicated the VLAN 101 tagging it would break it.
If the base issue is that you are intermittently losing wifi connectivity then that can't be anything to do with the VLAN tagging as it wouldn't work at all, not just on an intermittent basis.
They are just on another planet!
:no:
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Hadn't considered it from that perspective.
I guess in some countries/configurations the router might connect direct but then can't be configured with vlan.
It's defo the router dropping, wired or WiFi.
Google support are aweful.
You get the impression they have zero techy knowledge but just read from scripts.
Thus they struggle with anything beyond America.
I will ask for a refund under a warranty and buy something like by mesh.
Thanks for all the help.
Super appreciated.
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I will ask for a refund under a warranty and buy something like by mesh.
That is the sensible option.
Thanks for all the help.
Super appreciated.
You are welcome. :)
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What the heck are they on about? I wouldn't EVER expect an actual WAN connection to end in .1 or .254
Bad news - about 1 in 128 of all broadband client WAN IPv4 addresses end in .1 or .254. Indeed .0 and .255 account for another 1 in 128 - ish.
Name: cpc114124-lee213-2-0-cust255.7-1.cable.virginm.net
Address: 86.28.209.0
Pinging 86.28.209.0 with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 86.28.209.0: bytes=32 time=35ms TTL=52
Reply from 86.28.209.0: bytes=32 time=36ms TTL=52
Name: cpc114124-lee213-2-0-cust510.7-1.cable.virginm.net
Address: 86.28.209.255
Pinging 86.28.209.255 with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 86.28.209.255: bytes=32 time=25ms TTL=53
Reply from 86.28.209.255: bytes=32 time=24ms TTL=53
Name: 51-148-174-1.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk
Address: 51.148.174.1
Pinging 51.148.174.1 with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 51.148.174.1: bytes=32 time=16ms TTL=58
Reply from 51.148.174.1: bytes=32 time=16ms TTL=58
Etc.
Default gateways rarer as there are far fewer required but it happens, especially on networks using IPoE or straight DHCP where there are smaller IP pools than those you'd find via PPP.
Perhaps CarlT will offer an opinion?
I haven't a clue what they're waffling on about if I'm honest. If there's supposed to be a VLAN tag there, or there's an incorrect VLAN tag, it doesn't work full stop, it's not intermittent. None of my services expose a VLAN tag to my router so I'm totally lost to be honest. VLAN tags are placed on the traffic by my ONT/U, much as they are by Openreach modems as far as I'm aware.
A reminder neither the ONTs or modems are actually modems, they are bridges. Bridges can do things like apply VLAN tags. Only time VLAN tags need to be configured are when your own kit is being plugged straight into the copper line rather than a, pre-configured, Openreach modem.
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I haven't a clue what they're waffling on about if I'm honest. If there's supposed to be a VLAN tag there, or there's an incorrect VLAN tag, it doesn't work full stop, it's not intermittent. None of my services expose a VLAN tag to my router so I'm totally lost to be honest. VLAN tags are placed on the traffic by my ONT/U, much as they are by Openreach modems as far as I'm aware.
Thank you. We are all in agreement. :)
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Bad news - about 1 in 128 of all broadband client WAN IPv4 addresses end in .1 or .254. Indeed .0 and .255 account for another 1 in 128 - ish.
I really need to pick my wording better as I was just thinking it would be extremely rare if at all, thanks for clarifying.
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For efficiency WAN IPs usually come out of fairly decently sized ranges so apart from the first and last addresses in the range the others are treated the same.
With PPP don't even have a default gateway in the same segment, they can be anything, even privately addressed.
EDIT: I do see your thought process though and for the wider audience:
A 24 bit subnet mask / 255.255.255.0 uses network address .0 and broadcast address .255 - those are start and end. Normally you'd also need an IP address in the same subnet as a default gateway and this is usually either .1 or .254. This also means you lose 2 out of every 256 addresses to network and broadcast, and a further 1 for default gateway if you are using normal routing rather than PPPoE.
So for efficiency ISPs, especially larger ones, use the largest subnets they can reasonably use. In the case of the DHCP scope from Virgin Media I mentioned it's a /21, so 8 x /24, making the network address 86.28.208.0 and the broadcast address 86.28.215.255. VM use the first usable address as the default gateway as they use 'normal' routing:
Name: cpc114124-lee213-2-0-gw.7-1.cable.virginm.net
Address: 86.28.208.1
This means all addresses from 86.28.208.2 to 86.28.215.254 may be allocated to customers whatever digit they end with, leaving 2045 out of 2048 rather than 2024 that would be available using 24 bit masks throughout.
It's also more efficient for network devices too - they see a single subnetwork not 8.
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I was going to say I thought I had read something about PPPoE being able to be a private address range, while still having a public IP facing you, as its effectively a tunnel/bridge? I'm just not sure I'm remembering that correctly.
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See message 15
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Thanks everyone.
I now understand where the default gateway IP comes from and a fair bit of detail on its allocation.
The fact they determine its a vlan connection based on the last digits of the gateway is strange.
Mine is a vlan by fibre connection.
So there assessment is correct.
But they ignore the fact the router strips these tags.
Default settings are Lan 802.2q/p disabled.
No vlan downstream.
Anyway, Looks like that's it!
Google no tech knowledge and no customer care team say....
Good day! Sorry for the late response. May we know if your ISP or tech representative from your ISP knows how to identify VLAN Tagging?
We do apologize but we cannot process any replacement for the device because your ISP settings is unsupported. Please work with your ISP and get back to us once their settings is correct. Stay safe!
Thank you
...essentially if you can't get your modem to work with it or you experience any issues after successful setup Google don't support you if on a vlan wan connection ie. Most of UK fibre users
£200 down the drain
Anyone wanna buy a nest WiFi?
I wouldn't cr#p product aweful support
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You may wish to read this article on the Consumer Rights Act 2015 - https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act-aKJYx8n5KiSl - as I don't think Google can just wash their hands of this as the product doesn't sound like it has ever worked correctly whilst in your ownership. In the first 6 months of ownership it is for Google to prove that it isn't faulty and I don't think they've done that at all.
Don't just give up on this as they have been telling you absolute rubbish about the VLAN tagging being the problem here.
:)
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I am in agreement with what tubaman has posted.
I'm wondering if some adverse publicity might be beneficial? Rory Cellan-Jones, of the BBC Technology department, comes to mind.
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Good day! Sorry for the late response. May we know if your ISP or tech representative from your ISP knows how to identify VLAN Tagging?
We do apologize but we cannot process any replacement for the device because your ISP settings is unsupported. Please work with your ISP and get back to us once their settings is correct. Stay safe!
Thank you
...essentially if you can't get your modem to work with it or you experience any issues after successful setup Google don't support you if on a vlan wan connection ie. Most of UK fibre users
Except for all we know ALL ISPs may use VLANs as once the tags are removed its plain ethernet, that's rather the whole point.
To say its Fibre via VLAN is flawed from our perspective as its just plain untagged ethernet once it leaves the modem or ONT. There is no way this is impacting the router or PPPoE wouldn't be able to establish the connection in the first place, their excuse is invalid.
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Just got on to the Google community area.
Loads of people saying it's mis-selling.
Only resolution offered is:
Modem then 3rd party router then nest.
Or managed switch.
If vlan issue, modem surely takes care of it.
Unless I misunderstand pppoe.
It bridged through but still deals with tags either direction.
More to it obviously.
I wonder if it's the gateway.
They expect a local routable one or something.
Above my pay grade or at least networking knowledge.
They admit 3rd party router may cause double may issues and suggest putting in bridge mode.
So modem in bridge mode
Router in bridge mode
Nest with wan pppoe
Would that even work?
What does 3rd party router bring to the party.
Do they think modems don't deal with vlan??
What a mess
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They admit 3rd party router may cause double may issues and suggest putting in bridge mode.
So modem in bridge mode
Router in bridge mode
Nest with wan pppoe
Utter nonsense. They are clutching at straws (or anything else that is nearby) rather than admitting that their product is unfit for the task.
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As mentioned above it's nothing to do with VLANs.
I successfully configured a Google Nest WiFi on an OpenReach FTTP connection nearly 18 months ago, after a neighbour struggled to set them up.
I followed advice online to factory reset the device, configure with it disconnected from other devices, then connect to the ONT.
It worked immediately and has worked since.
There's also lots of reports of these working perfectly on the BT Forums.
Google seem to just throw back any issues with "YOU HAVE A VLAN" but I can't see how it can be that.
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Interesting.
That's the first time anyone has confirmed it works or rather is stable. Fttp versus mine is fttc.
Mine connected first time just drops connections.
Rang draytek and they said vigor 130 ok with nest.
Yet on Google community their engineering say on vlan connections you will get instability.
Why would they be telling people to ano router?
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Google defo not playing
If it's a vlan connection they will not provide support
I presume when they say..
A modem then 3rd party router
A 3rd party modem router combi would do.
I expect many people use existing either with double may or bridge it.
Will have to try this to see if they will then provide support with dropouts
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@mogsiewp,
Is the tr069 vlan id 301 disabled?
https://ukinfinity.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/bt-infinity-tr069-vlan-access
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Google defo not playing
If it's a vlan connection they will not provide support
...
But as far as the Goggle kit is concerned the VLAN tagging doesn't exist as your HG612 is dealing with that. There is very clearly a problem with their kit that they don't want to admit to.
:no:
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Yes it's disabled
Got onto Google community area for nest products
Everyone pulling hair out
Many must have no vlan so get support and have tried all cooked up resolutions
Many point to a firmware update
Obviously not vlan
But instead a significant product issue
Guess I am back to chancing s chargeback on my card.
I will never moan about Currys again
Issue sir, no probs here's your money
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What devices are you using - all Apple, All Google etc mixed economy?
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No apple
Google devices
Microsoft pc/laptop
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No apple
Google devices
Microsoft pc/laptop
Okay. Apple privacy options on wifi networks have been known to cause problems. But obviously not here. Can the HG612 be run in router mode? is that worth trying?
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I did wonder that.
Effectively putting a modem and router in front.
I asked them what it would achieve but they just ignored the question as usual.
Also asked if I implemted this setup would they provide support if dropouts persist.
They just said it might help!
It's there article which proposed this solution?
I don't think they have a clue or they're usings bots.
Do you know what settings need to change to try?
We use vpn for work here so double may would have to be avoided so I think that means leaving in bridge mode.
Also nest wan has either DHCP or ppoe.
Presume ppoe still.
Bet if default gateway ends in 120 they still say vlan issue.
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What have you got to lose? It will either work or not.
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Its my understanding the HG612 is grossly underpowered to run NAT on VDSL, thus why its only found in modem/bridge mode.
Its also not really helpful as you're offsetting the PPPoE to the HG612 then so it probably will fix the problem as you're basically taking most of the work away from the Nest.
Having a system that works as long as you don't ACTUALLY use its functionality? Yeah I wouldn't do that.
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Its my understanding the HG612 is grossly underpowered to run NAT on VDSL, thus why its only found in modem/bridge mode.
Its also not really helpful as you're offsetting the PPPoE to the HG612 then so it probably will fix the problem as you're basically taking most of the work away from the Nest.
Having a system that works as long as you don't ACTUALLY use its functionality? Yeah I wouldn't do that.
Bear in mind the issue here is loss of wifi connectivity not internet connection. The purpose of using the HG612 in router mode is to see whether the NEST wifi behaves itself in this configuration. Which will add to the available information.
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@mogsiewp I have been following this thread and cannot believe the stupidity and total lack of understanding of Google support. There is no VLAN tag on the LAN connection from the modem, so their obsession with VLAN tagging is just not a valid excuse for the problem. Also the nonsense about Gateway IP addresses is just beyond belief, a Private Gateway address is perfectly valid. As for adding a switch or router between the modem and Nest how can that achieve anything if there is no VLAN tag there, you can't remove something that isn't there!
The "Google Help Page" ??? about VLAN tagging confirms that it is not the problem.
Set up a network that uses VLAN tagging
**Some Internet Service Providers (ISP) require VLAN tagging in order for their modems to communicate with wireless routers.
Note: VLAN tagging is not supported by Google Nest Wifi or Google Wifi and can cause your setup to fail.
To confirm if your ISP uses VLAN tagging, or if you have IPTV or VoIP service through your ISP, check with your ISP.
There is no VLAN Tag going to the router so the sentence marked ** does not apply. The onhub file confirms you have a valid PPPoE connection and you are online. The vlanScan lines are somewhat ambiguous, it hasn't attempted to scan but the scan is complete. I don't see how that would confirm there is a VLAN tag. If there was a VLAN problem you would not get any connection.
VLAN tagging can be a problem if the ISP does uses it so the router can identify different services such as VOIP or IPTV but this does not apply to Openreach FTTC connections. (Seems to be on US and some Continental ISPs)
What I would like to clarify is when you see the WI-FI drops is the Internet still connected, is the PPPoE connection still up? Your earlier post suggested it was just the wi-fi dropping but could you confirm this?
There is nothing to be gained by trying to run the HG612 in Router mode, as @Alex_Atkin states it probably doesn't have the processor power to run PPPoE which is quite demanding on high speed connections. I wouldn't even bother to try it and you will probably end up with a Double NAT situation.
My conclusion is that this is a Wi-Fi problem with the Google Nest but you are going to struggle to get them to accept this.
I don't think you will get a satisfactory result.