Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: patters on February 15, 2021, 01:47:11 PM
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Hi all,
I live on a 2013-built housing development in London fed from the Norbury exchange. The developer couldn't be bothered to get BT to install a cabinet despite building 230 new homes, so everyone is connected via a pre-existing local cabinet some distance away. My home is at least 800m or so from the cabinet, possibly more depending on the precise route. As a result, G.Fast offers no improvement over VDSL2. 31Mb is all I can get. Frustratingly, the nearest road outside the housing development has Virgin Media but we don't, even though only the last two letters of our postcode are different.
Two areas close by have apparently had FTTP rolled out (Thornton Heath, and Tooting). I see from web searches that the former was certainly an early OpenReach test rollout. Consulting the latest OpenReach lists, Norbury exchange is not currently expected to be enabled for FTTP.
However, a week ago contractors working on behalf of OpenReach installed the 12-port Fibre distribution connectors into the BT ducting throughout the development, at nearest 50m from my house. The contractor said it's usually around a month from the install date that they would be properly connected to the exchange and that I ought to be able to place an order then.
So far so good, but if I use the BT Wholesale Broadband Availability Checker here (https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL/AddressFeatureProduct), it shows for my address: FTTP 330/30Mb and Availability Date: Available.
FTTP Install Process shows just "--"
Down in the descriptive text underneath it explictly states that "FTTP is not available." From what I could gather, you can't order until that FTTP Install Process is populated with an installation category.
But then I put a previous London address of mine in to this same checker and I see exactly the same status. However, this previous address does offer Fibre 100 when using the BT retail fibre availability checker here (https://www.bt.com/broadband/availability/), which I understand is an FTTP product. I then tried many different previous addresses, some outside London, and they all seem to offer this same status of 330/30Mb FTTP but also stating that it's not available.
So... can any actual conclusions be drawn about FTTP availability from the BT checker? Is it possible I may get FTTP soon, even if my exchange is not on the latest list (why else would OpenReach install the fibre in the ducting?)? Or do they sometimes install the fibre infrastructure months or years ahead of retail availability?
I did read something about an OpenReach initiative to retro fit some new housing developments, so could this be the reason for the recent installation work? I guess BT is under pressure to deliver to a target number of households, and new developments are the low hanging fruit given that they have ducting to each front door in good condition.
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Presumably you are seeing FTTPoD which is an extremely expensive product aimed at business rather than WBC FTTP, which is the entirely different domestic product, in the checker results.
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BT sell FTTP and G.Fast as Fibre 100.
So Fibre 100 showing on the BT site is of no use.
Check the address on the checker at http://www.openreach.com/
It should tell you what technology is available at an address or if FTTP is coming.
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@Patters I think you may be looking at the wrong line in the checker, just about anywhere with FTTC will say FTTP on Demand (FTTPoD) is available. This is a very expensive custom installation of fibre to your premises costing thousands.
What you should be looking for is WBC FTTP, which is native FTTP with the infrastructure provided by Openreach.
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Ah right, thanks for clearing that up. So if it was in progress - the OpenReach checker ought to tell me? Because it doesn't.
So is there no point in getting excited by contractors installing the fibre in my street then?
As an aside I think it's scandalous that telcos were even allowed to call FTTC 'Fibre' at all. They've caused this utter confusion by doing that.
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still "At the moment, we don't have any plans to upgrade your area to full fibre"
BT I assume dont care they up against VM offering 100s of mbits/sec and soon also vodafone.
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For me it doesn't say that. It leads to a page where I submit by details so they can let me know when it's available. So, is that an encouraging sign then?
We're starting to build our ultra-fast, ultra-reliable Full Fibre broadband in your area.
Provide your details below, and we'll keep you up to date with how we're getting on and what this could mean for you and your property.
Would be interested if some of the people finally enjoying 21st century connections could comment on how long they saw this particular status for before they could order. Months, or years?
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This is a timeline for seeing things happening in the street and stuff being able to be ordered here in Norwich City Centre. Was 2 weeks from them installing the black CBTs (all 8 port round here) to being able to order. This was a relatively small installation though. I guess there maybe be more delays if they are working on a big estate.
Brief diary of FTTP install in my area (Private courtyard off a mixed residential / business street in the heart of Norwich City centre). I'll add to this as time passes. If I get a mo I'll link to posts in the thread at various points.
27/07/2020 - Openreach survey, pavement markings appear in our courtyard off street.
31/07/2020 - Evening works in road, pulling stuff off huge drums through the street ducts.
10/12/2020 - Flower beds in front of neighbour's houses have new chambers installed using existing ducts to street.
20/01/2021 - Fibre CBT installed in flowerbed chamber by Openreach contractors RDJ Utilities.
24/01/2021 - A peek indicates thoughts that I'm on direct buried armoured copper seemingly confirmed.
25/01/2021 - Tails of CBT spliced in a large chamber across the road, in the back of an RDJ Utilities van.
31/01/2021 - Openreach wholesale checker still doesn't offer FTTP, but FTTPoD has been upgraded from 330/30 to 1000/220.
03/02/2021 - Openreach wholesale checker now offers WBC FTTP 1000/220.
04/02/2021 - Ordered 900/115 from Zen over phone. Status on order tracker "Wait for KCI-2". No date for install yet, but claimed single visit(!)
05/02/2021 - Noted OR checker says "Single Dwelling Unit Residential UG Pre built to curtilage Hard." - usually 2 (or more) stage install...
08/02/2021 - OR engineer arrived to survey, looks like plan is to intercept duct either in our flower bed or at edge of drive. Duct proved clear.
09/02/2021 - Email from Zen, 1st stage external install schedule 27/04/2021, 2nd stage internal install appointment 07/05/2021.
14/02/2021 - DIY installed 22mm barrier pipe as conduit from outside wall to inside wall ready for fibre with a couple of draw ropes.
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That certainly is encouraging. I have also found this national map of OpenReach fibre installation works (https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/fibre-first?utm_source=presspage&utm_medium=digital&utm_campaign=rural_a3_locations&utm_term=pressrelease#fibrefirstlocations), and it confirms my area (looks like whole of Norbury exchange-fed area) does indeed have status "Works In Progress". Yay!
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I can 101% confirm Norbury is at approximately 70% manually surveyed stage .... which means you will be getting it. Caveat - unless you fall under 'high cost' parameters.
Obviously, i don't know your postcode so can only speak in general terms.
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Wow, that's why I joined this forum: industry insiders :)
I hope my address will be ok - recently built houses and ducting, and every home has a uPVC pipe from the ducting to the front door carrying the existing copper. The fibre connections are now in the ducting (though not the nearest duct cover to my house, but within approx 50-60m), but according to the contractors the missing link is the distribution point at the main road which gets done later.
Question: do they wait for all the fibre installations to be completed to open the floodgates and declare the local exchange 'open for FTTP' or is the connectivity commissioned incrementally?
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patters nice find, Black Sheep any idea why Truro in cornwall is planned yet the city of Leicester is not? entire county isnt planned, but is odd rural areas are coming ahead of cities?
Caister on sea another one, a lot of planned low populated areas in the middle of nowhere.
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How often is the availability checker updated or is it when new connectivity is available to order i.e post code is enabled for fttp. Work finished in my street just under two weeks ago just want to get it ordered.
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Wow, that's why I joined this forum: industry insiders :)
I hope my address will be ok - recently built houses and ducting, and every home has a uPVC pipe from the ducting to the front door carrying the existing copper. The fibre connections are now in the ducting (though not the nearest duct cover to my house, but within approx 50-60m), but according to the contractors the missing link is the distribution point at the main road which gets done later.
Question: do they wait for all the fibre installations to be completed to open the floodgates and declare the local exchange 'open for FTTP' or is the connectivity commissioned incrementally?
It sounds like you're possibly on a retro new-build FTTP programme, as opposed to the other FTTP programmes out there ??.
Either way, once the splitter node is built and commissioned, it then goes into a 'ready for service' state with the ISP's but regarding timescales from that point, I couldn't tell you ? In a nutshell, a splitter will feed a maximum of 120 premises, so you won't be waiting for the rest of the splitters to be built before they 'open the floodgates'. :)
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patters nice find, Black Sheep any idea why Truro in cornwall is planned yet the city of Leicester is not? entire county isnt planned, but is odd rural areas are coming ahead of cities?
Caister on sea another one, a lot of planned low populated areas in the middle of nowhere.
I have no in-roads into the 'What we are building and where', but I do know the rural (final 20%) builds are of course being subsidised by the Government, so my humble guess would be ..... because of the money. ;) :)
Sorry Chrys. :(
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It took our rural village build about 1 year to build, test and go live (lit up).
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Sounds about average that, tickmike.
Of course, we tend to build from the Exchange out, following the various spines made up of existing or brand new fibres. Ergo, the closer PON's will be lit first and the furthest away ....
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I have no in-roads into the 'What we are building and where', but I do know the rural (final 20%) builds are of course being subsidised by the Government, so my humble guess would be ..... because of the money. ;) :)
Sorry Chrys. :(
Ok thanks Black Sheep. :)
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Fibres were being spliced at the main road yesterday. I wonder how long it will be before availability.
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They installed a CBT in our chamber on the second of March and it was about the 10th or 11th before it showed up as available on the OR checker for ordering. I am now waiting on the install which is scheduled for mid April. It looks like there are a half a dozen others in my village who have orders pending as well.
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Well, 5 months have passed and still no fibre availability. It's all there in the ground, but a fat lot of use at the moment.
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Seen a post elsewhere today talking about how openreach were ignoring one side of the street because they were MDU properties. If this is something they do widespread it may answer some questions why some areas are excluded. Maybe if they have a high % of MDU?
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Seen a post elsewhere today talking about how openreach were ignoring one side of the street because they were MDU properties. If this is something they do widespread it may answer some questions why some areas are excluded. Maybe if they have a high % of MDU?
We don't 'ignore' anything .... we survey 100% of the area.
If it's MDU, historically we leave capacity at the nearest point of entry/internal riser and a specialised contractor is made aware and they pick up the thread with the landlord. Things are afoot as we speak, regarding this process .... i'll inform when I know if NDA allows.
There's a lot worse than MDU though ... water pumping stations/underground reservoirs in the middle of 'nowheresville' for just one example, they all have to be surveyed for civils/cabling requirements regardless of whether they will be built in this current 'Final 20%' funded build. Capacity will be left at the splitter and Head End to be picked up by future programmes if they don't cost in.
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Yeah I was just posting what I read else where as someone noticed his side of the street was not even able to order FTTPoD, all the even numbered addresses, all the odd numbers could order it, the odd numbers were not MDU.
Do you think openreach will eventually be able to deploy to MDU without landlord permission, the same as is now for cable and dsl services?
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FTTPoD is a very different beast to FTTP.
Every single property that is connected to an FTTC cabinet should show FTTPoD on the BT Wholesale checker.
MDU's are completely excluded from ordering FTTPoD though and always have been.
MDU's aren't excluded from ordering FTTP. It just adds complications to the mix.
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Update - on Friday Openreach posted a letter through the door letting us know that Ultrafast Fibre is finally available, and directing us to a website listing all the possible providers. However, none of those providers believes my home can be connected, even the BT postcode checker only lists FTTC. I called BT and they could not sign me up :(
The Openreach postcode checker (https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/ultrafast-full-fibre-broadband#fibrechecker) does list Ultrafast up to 1Gb as being available for my home though. And now that another day has rolled over I have checked again (in case the data takes a while to percolate through the various systems) but the situation is unfortunately still the same.
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I expect there might be lag for them to notice the updated records, I remember that been a problem for me when I first ordered FTTC.
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I have recently moved into a new build property that has Openreach FTTP installed. I was attempting to order through a number of providers, some were apparently able to serve me whilst others were not. I contacted a number of the ISPs not able to serve me and they informed me that Openreach had yet to issue a UPRN for the address, so as a point of reference for new build properties this can also be an issue. The other ISPs who were able to offer me a service apparently did so using an alternative identifier and after selecting IDNet from amongst them I have had no issues with the delivery of service. It does appear that many CPs take their sweet time in updating their databases for availability even after Openreach have published the availability data!
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Many CP's simply don't offer FTTP in many areas, and rather than telling the customer they don't know why they aren't available they make up absolute nonsense.
As is the case more than once in this thread.
OpenReach do no issue UPRN's.
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I have recently moved into a new build property that has Openreach FTTP installed. I was attempting to order through a number of providers, some were apparently able to serve me whilst others were not. I contacted a number of the ISPs not able to serve me and they informed me that Openreach had yet to issue a UPRN for the address, so as a point of reference for new build properties this can also be an issue. The other ISPs who were able to offer me a service apparently did so using an alternative identifier and after selecting IDNet from amongst them I have had no issues with the delivery of service. It does appear that many CPs take their sweet time in updating their databases for availability even after Openreach have published the availability data!
As j0hn states, UPRN's are the domain of the local authorities, not OR.
We issue NAD keys (unique to each premises) - these are 'address matched' with the Post Office's data-base (well, they were up until literally a week or two ago, I think we're moving away from it now ??) ... if our info matches theirs, we assign a 'Gold key'.
If there's a disparity or a lack of info, we assign bronze or silver NAD keys as a temporary measure. I would imagine 'New builds' to be particularly susceptible to the latter two colours, especially if the Council address list has not been updated ??.
Not saying this is purely relevant to you, just giving an overview of where issues can lie.
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Many CP's simply don't offer FTTP in many areas, and rather than telling the customer they don't know why they aren't available they make up absolute nonsense.
As is the case more than once in this thread.
OpenReach do no issue UPRN's.
Ah, thank you for the clarification about that. I guess I'm glad I didn't go with that provider seeing as they tried to give me excuses for them not being on the ball.
As j0hn states, UPRN's are the domain of the local authorities, not OR.
We issue NAD keys (unique to each premises) - these are 'address matched' with the Post Office's data-base (well, they were up until literally a week or two ago, I think we're moving away from it now ??) ... if our info matches theirs, we assign a 'Gold key'.
If there's a disparity or a lack of info, we assign bronze or silver NAD keys as a temporary measure. I would imagine 'New builds' to be particularly susceptible to the latter two colours, especially if the Council address list has not been updated ??.
Not saying this is purely relevant to you, just giving an overview of where issues can lie.
This is really interesting info, thank you for some insights!
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I'am sure this OpenReach link is likely well known.
https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/fttp-providers
However, I only became aware of this a few days ago on a postal notification informing of FTTP availability at my address.
I was aware of my FTTP availability for quite a few months but OR obviously just getting around to postal notification.
Was surprised that TT, certainly a major ISP player was not offering FTTP in my area (N.I.)
Also Plusnet not offering FTTP anywhere.
Neither would be my choice when the time comes to migrate anyway.
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@Tiffy Apart from their trial which ran for several years and still has customers on FTTP, Plusnet have not yet offered a FTTP product for general consumption. The likely reason is their systems cannot cope with a service that does not have a physical phone line number associated with it. However they are threatening to offer FTTP later this year, a bit vague but it will happen at some point.
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A new development today - Openreach rodded and roped each property via the ducting. Still cannot order though. Maybe it was waiting for this update for the work to be classed as fully complete and ready for provisioning.
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@Tiffy Apart from their trial which ran for several years and still has customers on FTTP, Plusnet have not yet offered a FTTP product for general consumption. The likely reason is their systems cannot cope with a service that does not have a physical phone line number associated with it. However they are threatening to offer FTTP later this year, a bit vague but it will happen at some point.
Many thanks for the update on Plusnet.
Having left Plusnet last December after close to 11 years patronage and 2 years of unresolved administration issues they will never be my choice for FTTP (or indeed any) service ever again.
Still, plenty of FTTP choices available, may remain with Zen or review any new customer offers with BT at the end of my current FTTC contract.
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So three more months have gone by since my last observation. BT postcode checker still doesn't believe that my home can get anything better than 40Mb DSL, and BT's well priced 900Mb service has suddenly got a lot more expensive. However other ISPs such as Sky do now show that FttP is available for my home.
At the start of September I ordered 500Mb from Sky and this morning was my Openreach appointment, after waiting a whole month. And predictably they failed to attend with no communication whatsoever. No one will tell me why or what I can do about it. Bloody woeful experience. I had exactly the same treatment in 2013 when I bought the house and got the phone and DSL service connected, and it even happened multiple times.
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To rub salt into the wound, I just received a notification from Sky's provisioning system giving the reason for the failure as "The engineer could gain access to your property". Why wouldn't they just call the customer contact number if they had any doubts?! FFS.
EDIT - just called Sky, Openreach claimed their guy attended and waited for 15 mins outside. He must have been on the wrong street, and he conveniently didn't bother to call me, nor to take a photo of this house that wasn't in fact mine.
Apparently I will now have to wait another month for another opportunity for an engineer to possibly do the same thing to me. And I can't even move to a different provider because they will all have to use Openreach.
Surely they should have some reserve appointments for people they have completely messed around. Nope.
#LevellingUpBritain
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Unlucky! I wonder if it was an actual Openreach engineer and not a subcontractor who would've turned up. The subcontractors Openreach use generally appear to have a poor reputation.
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they informed me that Openreach had yet to issue a UPRN for the address
Can you find your UPRN on https://www.findmyaddress.co.uk/search ?
If so, what happens when you look up by UPRN on https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL ?
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So, another month on since Openreach failed to honour their appointment and I had an engineer turn up at the very limit of the time window (1300 attendance for an 0800-1300 window). The installation focused on drilling the wall first on the basis that's the part I have to be present for.
After that the engineer went to check the duct path to the CBT. He had no drawings and was speculating on the cable path. I had to point out which way the rope was routed to the first duct. I had learned this from the guys who rodded and roped it all months ago. He couldn't spot how to route between the last duct and the one with the CBT. He mentioned that he had to stop when it got dark (risk to the public of falling into open ducts). I offered to help to try and get the job done. Having seen them, I would agree that the duct placement and pipe orientations are not intuitive, but it seems utterly mental that the engineers are not given schematics, especially since the whole thing was surveyed and rodded and roped only a few months ago.
He decided to request help and another engineer arrived. Between them the two guys decided that there was no connectivity. As the light was fading I suggested they try rodding the only two exits from the duct containing the CBT (a simple logical approach) but one of the guys just overruled saying "listen mate I've been doing this for 30 years". They concluded, with no actual evidence since they didn't even try pulling ropes or rodding, that the road would need digging up and spray painted all over the brick paving in front of several of my neighbours' houses. They left, promising an escalation. They say this paint will wear off but I don't believe it, there's a six month old dotted line across the road that was sprayed under similar circumstances that has only slightly faded. The neighbours were immediately on WhatsApp, understandably concluding it was vandalism.
Next day I was away at work. No contact email nor SMS from Openreach. Another engineer arrived and fortunately my wife was in. It turns out the guys the previous day were wrong and he managed to get the fibre to my house and splice it. He had used the duct path I had asked the guys to try the previous day which they were adamant couldn't be correct. My wife had to leave, and so the engineer left without being able to confirm the ONT registration. The link was up but the ONT device wasn't correctly registered so the PON light was blinking. It should be solid.
On the third day I did get an SMS at about 8am telling me a guy had been assigned to the job. When he arrived he quickly registered the ONT and this allowed the router to connect successfully. However, I took a closer look at the exterior box. The engineer who mounted it had half driven the screws because he hadn't drilled pilot holes into the timber cladding on my house, so the box was wobbling about. I opened it to fix that, and discovered that the fibre was horribly kinked as it entered the box. The engineer present that day agreed it wasn't right and kindly fixed that and re-spliced. I ended up spending a significant part of two of the three days working with the engineers for this when I needed to be focused on my own job.
TLDR; The overall experience with Openreach is pretty awful. Two and a half days to do something which should by now be fairly routine, not to mention the no-show for the first appointment which they blamed on me (with no phone call on the day, nor a photo to prove where they had been, and yet I was in all day). So all told it took 2 months from order to install, with an actual implementation time of 3 days, and the communication to me was virtually non-existent.
My constructive feedback: issue duct schematics to the installers, and improve comms with the customer when repeat visits are scheduled. Only one of my two repeat visits had this.
I will not be changing providers in future simply because I cannot run the risk of having to deal with Openreach again. Those risks are the quality of the work, communications issues and resulting confusion, and the cost is a big chunk of my own time, usually during working hours.
Sadly I had a fairly similar Openreach experience when I first got this house (new PSTN line provisioning, and then early FttC adopter), and as a result I had stayed with a single supplier for the last 8 years. For me this latest experience is the continuation of a trend.
Finally though I do now have 500Mb down and 70Mb up thank goodness, though my home seems to have shifted from London to Portsmouth! ;D
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Changing between Openreach providers should not need any more engineers, as long as you stick with FTTP.
Also that's the server location in the speedtest, not you. ;)
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Duct and cable schematics are freely available to all engineers - Magic Maps App, Geo-Hub or Network Records.
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I can get Openreach FTTP:
Vodafone :)
Sky :)
Gamma :)
Talktalk address does not even show up :lol:
Rushden Northamptonshire, Virgin also rolled out 1GB here but I'd prefer Fibre to Co-axial. ;)
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Duct and cable schematics are freely available to all engineers - Magic Maps App, Geo-Hub or Network Records.
Then the installers really must love making life difficult for themselves. I cannot understand it. If I had access to information to make my job easier I would certainly use it. :wall:
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I'll post this here in case it helps someone. If you need to get power to the Openreach Nokia ONT but you don't want to run a mains extension - this is the appropriate 12V DC extension cable you need (which I discovered from a bit of trial and error):
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383423097541?var=651852504222
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I'll post this here in case it helps someone. If you need to get power to the Openreach Nokia ONT but you don't want to run a mains extension - this is the appropriate 12V DC extension cable you need (which I discovered from a bit of trial and error):
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383423097541?var=651852504222
I'd personally use a PoE injector/extractor pair as I've blown up at least one PSU by extending its cable length because the voltage drop on 12V can be quite significant.
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In my case I only needed 1.5m extra length so I don't think that would be a concern for me.
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In my case I only needed 1.5m extra length so I don't think that would be a concern for me.
That's probably all I added. Though it should be mitigated if the conductor is oversized.