Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Technology => Topic started by: chuffer on January 22, 2021, 11:08:25 PM
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When using a new router with Adsl/Vdsl interfaces and allowing the TR69 auto login function what information, if any, is passed from the Dslam back to the router ?
In my case the router was supplied by another ISP so clearly the TR69 will not work but I was surprised that the Zyxel was unable to auto discover that is was connected to a Vdsl cabinet.
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The TR069 functionality operates between the CPE and a system acting as a configuration server, deep inside ISP-land of the originating provider. It does not operate between the CPE and the DSLAM (or MSAN).
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As far as ADSL and VDSL negotiation, AFAIK its pretty dumb. It will simply try the best mode first, use whichever gains sync first.
However as ADSL and VDSL differ in how they operate, I'd expect the modem has to be pre-configured for the right mode as it wont be able to contact the TR069 server unless it has sync first and access to the right VLAN for that server.
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I'm a bit confused what you mean by "Zyxel was unable to auto discover that is was connected to a VDSL cabinet". With the numerous ZyXEL modems I've tried if both ADSL and VDSL are enabled they will happily sync with the live service - VDSL in my case.
If you mean that they don't auto configure for your ISP then no they do not, and I'm not aware that any device can do that without you telling it which ISP you are using and it then getting the connection details from a preconfigured list built into the device.
:)
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I think there is a misunderstanding here of how ISPs use TR069. They only use it on the modem/routers THEY provided, which will be pre-configured to the right settings. Its not intended for you to be able to buy any old router and it auto-configure itself, its not that clever.
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Thanks for the replies and I'm sorry if I was unclear.
I have a S/H Zyxel router which I believe was supplied to a John Lewis user, but I'm not sure.
JL is managed by my ISP, Plusnet, and my support desk thought that if they applied the routers model and/or serial no to my account they were confident the TR69 setup would work and auto setup to my PN. account.
This is the method PN use for those using the PH issued routers on both adsl and vdsl cabinets and I know this works.
The new issued router does not contain any pre-confugured user info just a link to the ISP's TR69 setup server and from there uses the serial number to identify and collect the required user's login details and installs them to the router.
So it gets the login username/password but what else ? ( are the Vlan settings of p= 0 q=101 uk wide for all ISP's and might it set that also ?? )
Clearly as Alex confirms, this could never work if the router cannot first discover which interface to use as it could never get to the config server.
There must be something the Dsalm indicates to the router which interface is active, hence...................
"In my case the router was supplied by another ISP so clearly the TR69 will not work but I was surprised that the Zyxel was unable to auto discover that is was connected to a Vdsl cabinet."
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This is the method PN use for those using the PH issued routers on both adsl and vdsl cabinets and I know this works
The new issued router does not contain any pre-confugured user info just a link to the ISP's TR69 setup server and from there uses the serial number to identify and collect the required user's login details and installs them to the router.
When i used the Plusnet Hub One with Plusnet it came pre-confugured for ADSL/VDSL.
So it gets the login username/password but what else ? ( are the Vlan settings of p= 0 q=101 uk wide for all ISP's and might it set that also ?? )
As above that part is already configured.
It couldn't connect to TR-069 without that being setup already.
There must be something the Dsalm indicates to the router which interface is active, hence...................
Clarified by ejs below.
ISP's can't set anything ISP specific in the VDSL2 DSLAM's.
It's generic sync settings for all ISP's.
Plusnet pre-confugure the xDSL settings and have the router connect somewhere to retrieve the login details.
It only needs to retrieve the username and password. That's the only part that's user specific.
I'd be surprised if Plusnet staff could get this working on a Zyxel, despite this being supplied by John Lewis broadband.
You may need to use something like Wireshark to check where the Plusnet Hub One connects to to initiate the setup process.
Then make sure the Zyxel connects to the same place.
I've no idea if the Plusnet Hub One initiates a PPP connection with a specific username/password when going through the initial setup process, but it must connect online somewhere beyond the DSLAM to do this.
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The DSLAM and modem negotiate the mode of operation using G.994.1. I think even G.fast still uses G.994.1 at the start. It's a two way process, information is exchanged between both ends. I think it's only Lantiq VDSL2 modems that cycle between VDSL2 and ADSL while trying to establish a connection, and that's because they load different firmware for VDSL2 and ADSL. If other modems need to reset bits of themselves internally while preparing for one or other mode, then they don't make it so obvious.
Yes Plusnet have a common PPP user/password for their routers to connect with while they retrieve the specific details for the account.
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jOhn.
PN staff understood both were addressing the same somewhere server and thus would retrieve the settings for the account.
The object of this exercise was to force a firmware update. ( if available )
ejs.
I'm sure you know that the first time setup instructions for both PN and JL read........
Plugin & power up your router, go make a cup of tea and come back in 10/15 minutes ( or words to that effect )
As far as I can tell the Zyxel 3925 & 8924 use Broadcom chip sets and the PN Hub1 is lantiq.
If the Broadcom don't/won't auto discover I would expect the forums to be awash with first time connection problems.
The other curious thing is that the Zyxels have a "quick start" option and is only questions are................
1 time zone
indicates it's currently set to PPPoA (?)
2 username & password
3 fixed or dynamic ip address
4 Enable wireless.
This does not work and when I checked the three interfaces setups I was very surprised to discover that "my choices" were only entered in the Adsl section (?), so again it would not connect, it got worse, entering my choices in Vdsl it still would not connect and I discovered Vlan was not enabled and the p & q settings were blank.
(?) But, might it be that if auto discover worked it would have set default to PPPoE
There is an advanced settings tab on the broadband page which is headed "If xDSL setting is changed, the CPE will require a retrain."
it has 9 entries under DSL modulation all of which including ADSL2 & VDSL2 are enabled as are all 8 entries under VDSL profile.
Worth just stating ( as I'm sure you know ) that ISP issued router generally have bespoke firmware and in the case of the 3925 the update firmware option is removed from the maintenance menu.
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No routers 'auto discover' as far as I'm aware. They come with pre-configured setups for either the ISP that supplied them or, in the case of shop bought ones, various common ISPs.
The TR069 feature is used on ISP supplied routers so they can 'phone home' and collect new config files and firmware if available, or be triggered by the ISP to update. This only works if the TR069 parameters are setup in the router beforehand.
Happy to be corrected on this, but that is how I understand it.
:)
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This only works if the TR069 parameters are setup in the router beforehand.
Correct. That is the essence of how the TR069 process operates.
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I understand that all ISP using a custom firmware and TR69 will have their own way of doing it and I can only say what I see.
I do not now have a PN Hub 1 to check but the Zyxel 3925, probably supplied by John Lewis, following a reboot deletes all user information and returns it to "new out of the box" condition.
I connect it to a computer but not to a x-dsl line and login using the default user & password.
Under the broadband setup page there are three interface options, adsl, vdsl & ethwan.
All three have the same setups of user name of kctr69 and a password and as previously said it will not connect when plugged into the line.
This in it's self is not surprising or of a great problem to me although I was hoping for a firmware update. ( the object of the exercise )
A fail here leads to trying the quick start option and for clarity I repeat the options here.
1 time zone
indicates on that page it's currently set to PPPoA (?)
2 username & password
3 fixed or dynamic ip address
4 Enable wireless.
I connect the line and enter the information in the 4 places and it will still not connect.
I checked the three interfaces setups and "my choices" were only entered in the Adsl section and the tr69 settings remained in the other 2 (?)
However it is expected to work, it's clear that the router firsts intended/needed to "auto discover" which of the three interfaces was active, which it clearly did not do although it appears to work now in all other aspects.
OR..........
IF some "indication" from the Dslam indicating " active" was not forth coming. ( contentious thought )
I should also add that I have never attempted a TR69 function connection with my Hub 1 preferring a manual setup.
(?) But, if auto discover had worked, it might have set default to PPPoE in quick start, put "my choices" in Vdsl and it would have connected, if it could resolve the vlan settings correctly, ( which were disabled and blank ) or it may have added another question.
I'll reword my original question, slightly...............
When using a rebooted, to new supplied condition, router with Adsl/Vdsl combined interface and set-up with a TR69 auto login function what information, other than user/password, is passed back to the router ?
ejs comments..........
"because they load different firmware for VDSL2 and ADSL. If other modems need to reset bits of themselves internally while preparing for one or other mode, then they don't make it so obvious."
As my Zyxel had not auto discovered it was connected to a Vdsl line what, it anything, might it be missing and possibly affecting it's performance ?.
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All three have the same setups of user name of kctr69 and a password and as previously said it will not connect when plugged into the line.
Looks like that could be a KCom supplied device and not John Lewis.
If the Broadcom don't/won't auto discover I would expect the forums to be awash with first time connection problems.
Do they actually supply any Broadcom modems though? If not then so such issues would arise.
John Lewis is just a Plusnet reseller. It's not Plusnet at the end of the day.
I'd expect John Lewis to have their own TR-069 settings to with their own routers.
I also wouldn't necessarily expect a Plusnet Hub One to automatically work on John Lewis broadband either, although maybe someone knows otherwise?
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I suspect that if the device was de-branded back to vanilla ZyXEL all of its eccentricities would then disappear.
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Whilst I have never used PN tr69setup for myself I have for others and it certainly works.
Even two friends who were PN Adsl users and the PN supplied Sagecom routers, and upgraded to Vdsl, were sent Hub 1's and told to plug it in straight away with the usual instructions of ..................
Plug it in then............
"This is the easy part. Your Hub needs a few minutes to configure settings and connect to the Internet. While it's doing this, go make yourself a drink.Wait for at least 5 minutes before moving on to the next step.
Once you've finished your drink, just open your web browser of choice (e.g Internet Explorer, Safari, Chrome, Firefox) and you should see your home page.
The same information can be found on the John Lewis support pages for Zyxel routers........ almost word for word.
They tr69 to their accounts and when some days later the lines were changed to Vdsl they reconnected without any user intervention.
Obviously this changed the wifi SSID and password.
Routers chip sets.
BT HH5 & PN Hub1, SoC: Lantiq XWAY VRX268 (PSB 80910 EL V1.2) MIPS 34Kc
Per the VRX268 product brief
ZyXEL VMG3925-B10B - Dual-Band Wireless AC VDSL2 Combo WAN Gigabit Gateway with USB
Broadcom BCM63168 chipset (GbE) - Dual Band Wireless AC (2x USB, SIM)
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It's not really relevant but just to correct my bad............... ( incorrect information )
When the Hub1's did their auto swop from Adsl to Vdsl it did NOT change the SSID or wifi password.
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ejs
I have sent you a PM
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There's a custom OpenWRT configuration that iamacarpet did for a1comms for an automatically configured ADSL or VDSL bridge using a Netgear DM200 for Plusnet https://github.com/a1comms/openwrt-netgear-dm200-bridge
All that's in the network file is the parameters of VDSL vlan or ADSL vci & vpi.
https://github.com/a1comms/openwrt-netgear-dm200-bridge/blob/master/files/etc/config/network
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Please do not send me private messages that would be better addressed to the wider community. If I have nothing (further) to contribute, then I tend to not say anything (else). Especially if your problem is relatively minor, and if vast amounts of time and resources have already been expended on it, then I can only suggest that you just live with it and not waste any more time on it. Eventually you may discover that this guaranteed minimum speed thing is not an actual guaranteed that you will receive that speed, it just means that if you're not getting it and they can't fix it, then you can leave your contract if you don't like it. I do realise that this isn't what people want to hear, so usually I don't say it.
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ejs.
I seem to have offended you for which I apologise, never my intention.
If you had responded to my PM requesting PM's, even with a simple, no, we could have avoided the bad feeling that been generated here.
You had an interesting comment about Adsl and Vdsl firmware portions being loaded that might be worth exploring directly with you.
As you suggest I will post it here.
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My requirement is the upgrade the firmware of my Zyxel and as it was supplied by an ISP it has been modified including the removal of that and some other options.
I found a post from 2019, from some of those that have also posted here, so I now the the supervisor password and that has restored the ability of some missing menu items.
I'm not fully up to speed with all the variations of the clearing of Rom-d etc so could somebody clear a few points for me.
1 If I just upgrade to the latest firmware, using the now available menu option, will that change the supervisor password ?.
2 Also missing is the ability to disable the TR69 function, is it best to make any changes like this before the upgrade ?.
or will the upgrade create an completely unmodified firmware and GUI ?.
3 Do I need to do a pin reset after the upgrade ?.
I'm not setup to clear Rom-d
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@chuffer, in reply to your questions above:
1. A firmware upgrade should not change the supervisor password. Do not clear ROM-D first however as then I believe it will scramble the supervisor password.
2. The TR069 functions should be available if logged in as supervisor. The upgrade won't change any settings so it shouldn't matter if you clear these before or after the upgrade.
3. If you haven't cleared ROM-D than a pinhole reset will restore the original ISP's settings. I usually get my setup as I like it and then write that to ROM-D.
:)
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I'm not sure I'm on the right page but I'm doing my best to keep up, not being au fait with the principal it's hard to follow the nuance.
1 Ok got that.
2 Yes, the TR69 tab can be seen only as supervisor under maintenance same with upgrade.
I thought/hoped that an install of original firmware downloaded from Zyxel would end up without any of the previously modified GUI, i.e hidden items.
It has been posted "That "rom file", as provided with the firmware package, is the "vanilla" template for CPs to customise and then upload to the device to be the ROM-D data."
So I expected the download to contain the rom image without any modifications.
If that is correct, would it not as part of the upgrade replace the ISP's image ?.
There is a button to restore default settings after firmware upgrade is that my settings or as originally supplied ?
Might this function replace the new clean image with what was there before the upgrade ?.
Both TR69 and firmware are not hidden from admin user in a retail product. ( although seen in another model )
I could see a ISP supplied device having the TR69 function etc enabled but a retail purchase would have it disabled.
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When logged in as Supervisor there's a menu called "Login Privileges" where you can set what menu items you wish to show the admin account.
I would clear rom-d and then upgrade the firmware.
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I would clear rom-d and then upgrade the firmware.
With the recent Zyxel versions I'm pretty sure that doing that will scramble the Supervisor password.
:)
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...
I thought/hoped that an install of original firmware downloaded from Zyxel would end up without any of the previously modified GUI, i.e hidden items.
It has been posted "That "rom file", as provided with the firmware package, is the "vanilla" template for CPs to customise and then upload to the device to be the ROM-D data."
So I expected the download to contain the rom image without any modifications.
If that is correct, would it not as part of the upgrade replace the ISP's image ?.
There is a button to restore default settings after firmware upgrade is that my settings or as originally supplied ?
Might this function replace the new clean image with what was there before the upgrade ?.
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Upgrading the firmware using Zyxel's version will leave the configuration untouched. This has certainly been the case with ex John Lewis and ex KCOM units that I have used.
The 'restore defaults after upgrade' option will restore the config from ROM-D. If you have not changed it then that will be the original ISP's config.
Personally the only thing I'm keen to do on an ISP supplied unit is to get TR069 disabled so there's no risk of it 'phoning home' and getting an unwanted config change.
:)
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VMG3925-B10B Ex Kcom
jOhn.
Yes I do have Login Privileges but the only option there is to change the supervisor password.
tubaman
I would also be happy to just disable the TR69 stuff, which I have now been able to do :-))
However, if I could also find the option jOhn suggests to put into the open the missing menu items, then any loss of the current supervisor password would not be an issue.
As an aside........... I have had agreeable contact with Zyxel who asked for the serial number and offered two password hexdex numbers, neither of which worked. ( of course this was before I found the other 2018 post)
When registering for support I was asked for model, serial, and firmware version, but the agent only asked for serial.
The question, buried here is.
If the super password is connected to the serial number and a firmware upgrade "might" replace the rom-d file, where is is likely stored, would the super they gave me now be valid ?.
Any further thoughts on...........
"That "rom file", as provided with the firmware package, is the "vanilla" template for CPs to customise and then upload to the device to be the ROM-D data."
I have downloaded the zip and ROM is a separate file, from as far as I've got there is no way of knowing if that will get installed at the same time via the upgrade button or needs to be installed separately (via ftp ?.)
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The rom file is used to update the config and will not be used during a firmware update - there is a separate option in the GUI to upload it.
The supervisor password is held in encrypted form (in /var/passwd I believe). As you say it seems to relate to the serial number somehow, but Zyxel are the only ones who know exactly how that works. Members here who can decrypt it do it via brute force methods.
:)
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tubeman.
Looks as though there are other differences to the firmware, current V5.11(AAVF.3)C0 , as not only do I have only one option under Login Privileges I do not see anywhere a GUI option to upgrade the rom-d ( not that I want to do it ), if I could edit it that might be different.
Maybe the upgrade will change the options.
I'm sure you have seen these.
https://kb.zyxel.com/KB/searchArticle!gwsViewDetail.action?articleOid=004911&lang=EN
https://kb.zyxel.com/KB/searchArticle!gwsViewDetail.action?articleOid=013727&lang=EN
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If that is the old Zyxel blue background GUI then there should be a ROM-D tab under Maintenance>Configuration when logged in as supervisor.
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With the recent Zyxel versions I'm pretty sure that doing that will scramble the Supervisor password.
:)
Which part do you think will do that? Cos above you wrote...
A firmware upgrade should not change the supervisor password. Do not clear ROM-D first however as then I believe it will scramble the supervisor password.
Clearing Rom-D does nothing but clear the rom-d, it can't change the supervisor password. It has no effect on any password.
It's the firmware that can change the supervisor password. It's in the changelog of some of the firmware versions that it will randomise the supervisor password.
I've never had that happen on my 8924 though.
It will do this regardless of the rom-d though.
The whole aim is to debrand and update the firmware meaning it needs rom-d cleared and updated. My advice is to do it in that order.
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@j0hn, my experience with a VMG3925-B10B demonstrated that:
1. Upgrading the firmware will not randomize the supervisor password if ROM-D is configured - ie not cleared prior to the upgrade.
2. Clearing ROM-D and then performing a pinhole reset will randomize supervisor on newer firmware versions.
You are quite correct that clearing ROM-D will not change supervisor - it is the firmware upgrade that does that, and I believe it only happens if the ROM-D config is in a cleared state.
As you can see I haven't tested all of the combinations of clearing ROM-D/upgrade/pinhole reset, mainly because I don't want to go through the inconvenience of having to reset via the serial interface if supervisor gets randomized.
:)
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tubeman
Yes, blue, no config tab, I am logged in as S.
jOhn.
If firmware upgrade is normally available when logged in as admin everybody could upgrade.
Would that mean that Z could never give you a S pass as it had changed ?.
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Update. !.
Successfully upgraded to 5.13 and the supervisor password still works .
When login as admin, of course, the items from the drop downs are still missing
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Update. !.
Successfully upgraded to 5.13 and the supervisor password still works .
When login as admin, of course, the items from the drop downs are still missing
Good news. You should be able to change the dropdowns seen by admin when logged in as supervisor. On my in use VMG8924-B10A with old style GUI I've found such changes never survive a reboot but I haven't tested it in my spare VMG3925.
:)
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tubaman.
Thanks for the encouragement, in fact the only change I can "see" between 5.11 and 5.13 is that in change supervisor password by now asking for the old one first and verify as before it was just enter new !.
I am trying to pluck up courage to change it !.
I guess the options you mention is under Login Privileges ? but for me it still only contains change S password.
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My motivation with the firmware upgrade to a Zyxel router was all in aid of being able to run DSLstats.
Some background on my issue which is low throughput.
The desktop experience is very noticeable delays in opening web pages and necessitates the use of an add blocker.
Tried 5/6 makes of routers and several computers.
Over 20 BT/OR engineers visits, do usual magic box tests always pass 100%
ISP KDB and Brag tests always very good/excellent.
Cable length to cabinet 170 Mtrs.
Profile 0.128M-80M Downstream, Retransmission Low - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off
Sync 79.999 19.999
Max data rate 92.372 26.873
My BT/OR Guaranteed minimum speed down 70.
BT availability checker line rate 80/79 & 20/19.
My downloads speeds increase by 5-6 Mbs after a DLM reset which lasts for rest of day.
Engineers (using own laptops) speed tests mid 50 down 19 up ( same as mine on a most days but can often be lower)
But completed ticket to ISP always says "achieved the expected speeds".
OR removed "test head" result 76 down 10 up, gone 2 hours later.
2 models of Zyxel routers found to be unable to detect they are connected to Vdsl cabinet.
Can setup manually but............. are all sections of firmware then loaded correctly ?.
Same speed results from a range of test sites.
TBB test results with useful graphs.
Mine
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/1598962949515558455
Many others ( found on the web ).
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/1599025306377395055
Spoken to 7 neighbours on a range of ISP's all with similar poor speeds.
It appears as though all, 70 some, users on this cabinet are affected.
2x SKY users told they can't have 80/20 package due to network issues.
One of them just renewed his contract and is now only guaranteed 10Mbs.
If the change of ISP was a solution I would have done so ages ago.
My conclusion is there is fault at the Huawei AIO cabinet but how to get BT's ISP support desk to escalate the fault to a higher level ???.
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My conclusion is there is fault at the Huawei AIO cabinet but how to get BT's ISP support desk to escalate the fault to a higher level ???.
A concise e-mail message, containing all the relevant facts, sent to "clive <dot> selley <at> openreach <dot> co <dot> uk" will be picked up be the executive complaints department and then investigated.
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Following burakkucat suggestion ( thanks ) I messaged and whilst I have had no reply it appears someone is looking as my speeds have increased but the delays at the desk top persists.
I should say, several speed tests, including thinkbroadband, show an increase and here are some examples using different devices.
Pad via 5Mhz wifi
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/1616232080243699155
This would be very nice :-))
Wired desk top.
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/1616236889813085555
When you look at the first page of this result you can hover over the x6 graph points and it displays the speed and the time it's taken so far and is says the ave speed was 72.3 and it took 7.7 sec in total.
Watching the dial during the test I have been surprised by the averages given as the dial numbers are often quite low.
So I added up the 27 graph points and the average is 59.89, much more in keeping with the desktop experience.
These are all tests from the TBB labs version and it says............
"The HTTP x6 test carries out six downloads at the same time to help maximise the usage on the connection."
I also would have expected the single point to be faster than the six but this has never been the case on the wired machines.
From the Zyxel router.
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Line Rate: 20.063 Mbps 79.998 Mbps
Actual Net Data Rate: 19.999 Mbps 79.999 Mbps
Attainable Net Data Rate: 26.185 Mbps 90.023 Mbps
How can any of these tests ever be greater than the router data/line rate ?.
So, some progress but not yet solved.