Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: pob on January 15, 2021, 10:09:00 AM
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My TalkTalk connection has started having problems with the upload speed after no problems for ages.
My sync is still 7Mb upload, but I'm only getting around 1Mb throughput. This is making working from home (for 3 of us in the house) pretty much impossible.
Anyone any ideas what the cause could be? Anyone else having similar issues?
Connections are via ethernet.
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I can see you had a resync yesterday afternoon, so perhaps you might say it started since then?
If that is the case, maybe something is messed up with the speed profile or configuration on TT's end. I'd wager a quick drop and reconnection of the PPP would sort it - or restarting the modem (if you do not know how to drop the session).
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Thanks for the reply.
Unfortunately the problems started before the resync.
The resync was because I powered off the modem etc for over an hour yesterday to see if it needed a profile reset (I had that with my download speed a few years ago).
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One possible cause could be upload activity happening that you are not aware of while running speed tests. Iphones and other smartphones are one of the main culprits. I have also had trouble a while ago with Dropbox uploading and hogging the capacity.
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Yep, already thought of that - had that issue in the past when iCloud decides to run a backup overnight.
Unfortunately not the culprit - when running speed tests the only device connected was my main computer via ethernet - I disabled WiFi.
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Had a "similar" US speed issue last April with my previous ISP, Plusnet, the main difference in my case being that US synch speed was also proportionately low, see details in this rather long thread which may or may not be relevent to your issue:
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,24606.msg413899.html#msg413899
I was fortunate in that I run DSLStats 24/7 via a RPi on my line and was able to tabulate, record and with the help of the many knowledgable forum patrons here attempt to diagnose the issue.
I have no personal experience with your ISP, TT but I hope you have more joy in getting them involved should that prove necessary than I did with Plusnet.
From the limited stat's you have provided, I assume you are on 80/20 provision as your DS synch is greater than 40 Mbps, with the assumed (to cabinet) line length proportional to the DS line attenuation (17.3 dB) your DS synch speed is not very good, wonder if the line performance in general is not up to spec. and perhaps a factor with your US speed issue?
What speed range does the BTw Wholesale Checker indicate for your line:
https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL
Are you in a position to substitute your modem/router as process of elimination preferable with a Broadcom chipped device where DSLStats could be utilised to obtain more detailed line stat's.?
Accepting that your line is still very likely above the DS handback speed threshold (the main criteria applied) it's unlikely that your ISP or via them Openreach will accept that there is an issue to investigate, with hard evidence such as line stat's snapshots you will certainly have more chance of prompting remedial action.
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I have a Raspberry Pi monitoring my HG612 modem.
Nothing of note in the graphs. Connection normally very stable (connected for months at a time).
No change at all in my Sync speeds. It is just my Upload throughput that has dropped from around 6Mb to 1Mb about 48 hours ago.
I've never been happy with my downstream sync speed. I've had 3 open reach engineers over recent years. This is as fast I can get. Lots of crosstalk in my area. Over the years there have been a couple of occasions where the cabinet must have reset and kicked everyone off. My HG612 resyncs quite quickly at over 50Mb in these situations. As everyone else comes back on line my SNR drops like a stone until it resyncs back at around 42Mb.
I used to get a max attainable of 70Mb when I was on Digital Region all those years ago (but never synced more than 40+Mb as that was all they sold).
I've been on an online chat with a TalkTalk agent for over a hour now. Keeps asking about filters, master sockets etc etc despite my Sync speed being fine.
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Full stats for anyone that is interested:
xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 7064 Kbps, Downstream rate = 41384 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 7064 Kbps, Downstream rate = 42388 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 3.1 6.1
Attn(dB): 17.3 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.6 4.8
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: -6 26
B: 227 207
M: 1 1
T: 0 38
R: 12 16
S: 0.1711 0.9348
L: 11223 1917
D: 4 1
I: 240 112
N: 240 224
Q: 4 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 100 0
TxQueue: 20 0
G.INP Framing: 18 0
G.INP lookback: 20 0
RRC bits: 0 24
Bearer 1
MSGc: 90 -6
B: 0 0
M: 2 0
T: 2 0
R: 16 0
S: 10.6667 0.0000
L: 24 0
D: 1 0
I: 32 0
N: 32 0
Q: 0 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 0 0
TxQueue: 0 0
G.INP Framing: 0 0
G.INP lookback: 0 0
RRC bits: 0 0
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 0 1369357
OHFErr: 51 172
RS: 1846150016 4177177
RSCorr: 517627 236
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Bearer 1
OHF: 4934972 0
OHFErr: 0 0
RS: 29609463 0
RSCorr: 3 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Retransmit Counters
rtx_tx: 1945434 0
rtx_c: 3519 0
rtx_uc: 4960 0
G.INP Counters
LEFTRS: 2 0
minEFTR: 42373 0
errFreeBits: 51206257 0
Bearer 0
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 2166496157 0
Data Cells: 377324435 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
Bearer 1
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 0 0
Data Cells: 0 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
ES: 2 162
SES: 1 0
UAS: 26 26
AS: 79269
Bearer 0
INP: 54.00 0.00
INPRein: 1.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 0.00 8.91
OR: 0.01 28.71
AgR: 42481.45 7092.58
Bearer 1
INP: 2.50 0.00
INPRein: 2.50 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 16.06 0.01
OR: 47.81 0.01
AgR: 47.81 0.01
Bitswap: 29135/29135 1250/1251
Total time = 22 hours 1 min 35 sec
FEC: 517627 236
CRC: 51 172
ES: 2 162
SES: 1 0
UAS: 26 26
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 1 min 35 sec
FEC: 705 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 5057 7
CRC: 0 5
ES: 0 5
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 22 hours 1 min 35 sec
FEC: 517627 236
CRC: 51 172
ES: 2 162
SES: 1 0
UAS: 26 26
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Since Link time = 22 hours 1 min 7 sec
FEC: 517627 236
CRC: 51 172
ES: 2 162
SES: 1 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
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Full stats for anyone that is interested:
Interested, pob can you ask the talktalk adviser to run a NGA Service Test on Supportal please, they should be able to give you the following information:
Test Summary
Name
Openreach Reference ID
DiagnosticCode
TestDescription
MainFaultLocation
Sync Status
Downstream Speed (MBPS)
Upstream Speed (MBPS)
Additional Description
Appointment Required
Fault Report Advised
Test Start
Test Stop
Multicast
Supplementary Information
Radio Frequeny Ingress
Bridge Tap
Repetitive Electrical Impluse Noise
Voice Line Test Result
NTE Power Status
CrossTalk
Voice Fault ID
Voice Reinjection
Faceplate
NTE5c
Technology
Speed Visit Complete
PLTI
CPE Vectoring State
Home Wiring Problem
DSL Profile Rate Assessment
Estimated Line Length In Metres
Upstream Rate Assessment
Downstream Rate Assessment
Interference Analysis
Service Impact
Interference Pattern
Interference duration longest occurrence
Interference location
Interference observed In days
Historic CVLAN analysis check
Downstream Policing Discard Rate
Customer Traffic Level
DLM Summary
Name
Current Session (mins)
Current Policy Applied
Policy Change in Last 14 Days
Product Summary
Name
Current Ordered Downstream Speed (MBPS)
Current Ordered Upstream Speed (MBPS)
Line Summary
Parameter
Downstream line rate (MBPS) :
Upstream line rate (MBPS) :
Uptime (Secs) :
Retrains (Successful Initializations + Failed Initializations) :
Downstream Traffic (MBPS) :
Upstream Traffic (MBPS) :
Downstream Discarded Frames :
Upstream Discarded Frames :
Downstream Policing Discards :
Upstream Policing Discards :
Profile Summary
Profile name
VDSL Error Seconds Details
Parameter
Start time stamp of bin
Errored Seconds
Severely Errored Seconds
Unavailable Seconds
Ingress Code Violation
Egress Code Violation
Retrains
That should be populated with specifics to your line, so you can ask what profile you are on, is there any interference according to the test, is their any radio ingress, is there any electrical impulse?
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I'll ask but I don't hold out much hope.
He's just insisted that I reconnect my TalkTalk router (bypassing my HG612 and Linksys Velop system).
Speedtests haven't changed (no surprise there!)
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Latest update...
Insisted I 'factory reset' the TalkTalk router.
Has come back with the line: The NGA Test on Supportal shows as passing. No fault found.
I've now been on this live chat for 2 hours and it's getting annoying :-(
Appreciate the help though guys - I'm sure it's entertaining :-)
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Latest update...
Insisted I 'factory reset' the TalkTalk router.
Has come back with the line: The NGA Test on Supportal shows as passing. No fault found.
I've now been on this live chat for 2 hours and it's getting annoying :-(
Appreciate the help though guys - I'm sure it's entertaining :-)
That's no help, as if a line is still in sync, that's no fault found, regardless of DLM turning it into garbage.
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I know, but he appears to be following the script to the letter.
I've asked about DLM / Profile resets and he says he can't do them - has to be done by Openreach (true?)
Edit: just come back with: since there is no issue on the sync speed profile reset is not required. Have you tried doing a factory reset on the router?
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I know, but he appears to be following the script to the letter.
I've asked about DLM / Profile resets and he says he can't do them - has to be done by Openreach (true?)
True, DLM is enabled by default and controlled by Openreach
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So, after 3 hours on live chat:
"Based on the checks we’ve run it looks like the issue is likely to be within your home.
We've completed the following checks:
Run a line test today and found no line fault is present.
Our systems have checked line data for the past 7 days and found no line faults present.
You've confirmed your Broadband/Telephone equipment is connected to your main telephone socket and the equipment is not damaged.
Ensured your router is current and up-to-date (if the issue impacts Broadband).
We can send you additional guidance on how to check the setup in your home
Or if you’d prefer we can send an engineer to investigate and make sure your setup allows you to get the most from your TalkTalk service. The cost to send an engineer is £40, but if the engineer finds a fault in TalkTalk or Openreach equipment then this will be credited back to you.
What would you like to do?
Book a TalkTalk Engineer
Get the in home check guide by email
Get the link for the to in-home check guide
Resolve the issue myself"
This is with a factory reset TalkTalk router connected to the master test socket with only 1 ethernet connection active. Sync speeds for upload 6.5Mb. Throughput speed test: 1Mb.
I think I need to give up for today :-(
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what do you get from the talktalk speedcheck? https://www.talktalk.co.uk/speedcheck/
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38Mb down
1Mb up
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I have a Raspberry Pi monitoring my HG612 modem.
Nothing of note in the graphs. Connection normally very stable (connected for months at a time).
No change at all in my Sync speeds. It is just my Upload throughput that has dropped from around 6Mb to 1Mb about 48 hours ago.
I've never been happy with my downstream sync speed. I've had 3 open reach engineers over recent years. This is as fast I can get. Lots of crosstalk in my area. Over the years there have been a couple of occasions where the cabinet must have reset and kicked everyone off. My HG612 resyncs quite quickly at over 50Mb in these situations. As everyone else comes back on line my SNR drops like a stone until it resyncs back at around 42Mb.
I used to get a max attainable of 70Mb when I was on Digital Region all those years ago (but never synced more than 40+Mb as that was all they sold).
I've been on an online chat with a TalkTalk agent for over a hour now. Keeps asking about filters, master sockets etc etc despite my Sync speed being fine.
OK, good to know you already have line stat's monitoring capabilities with the Huawei HG-612 modem & RPi combination.
Can you possibly post some DSLStats snapshots, specifically:
HLog, QLN, SNRM, Bitloading and "Average Error Rates by Day" graphs.
Ensure DSLStats tone range is adjusted to cover all your active range before snapshot is captured.
I've asked about DLM / Profile resets and he says he can't do them - has to be done by Openreach (true?)
Yes, but have to be requested by the ISP.
Plusnet certainly used to get this done quite quickly via an OR request, not sure what TT's current policy is on DLM resets.
Have you tried the BTw Availability Checker by phone number, link supplied earlier, this will indicate what speeds your line should be capable of and what your handback DS speed threshold is.
Crosstalk is always going to be an issue on VDSL-2 FTTC service in the absence of vectoring which will never happen now, if you are unlucky and your line happens to inhabit a heavily populated DSLAM cabinet in a high density area there's not a lot you can do other than pray for FTTP service being available sooner rather than later.
First line ISP telephone help is as you have related very basic with the operatives just reading from a script with very basic understanding of what they are talking about, I have read that some parties have had good service from TT's second line technical service if you can manage to get your issue escalated.
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I don't think this is a DLM issue as the sync speed is as expected. More likely a stuck profile , linecard, or TT config problem.
I would be very insistent on talking to second line on this, as the first line people don't usually have much understanding of how any of this actually works and will just follow their script (as you have found).
I have been in a similar situation with BT in the past when I had no internet due to their DNS server being at fault. It was obviously this as I could ping via IP but no names would resolve. First line still wanted me to go through the 'unplug the front panel from your master socket and connect the HomeHub directly to it.....' nonsense. I gave up trying to explain that it was nothing to do with the actual connection and just told them I had done what they had asked and that it made no difference. They did eventually refer it to second line but it was hugely frustrating.
:)
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Good morning...
Update: a third period of powering off the modem for around an hour appears to have fixed the problem. As suspected it was a stuck profile somewhere. Just can't understand why the other periods of power down didn't work (each was around 45-60mins).
At least I've got my upload speed back and I can now actually use Microsoft Teams (wait... that's a bad thing!!).
Thanks for the suggestions everyone - it kept me said whilst I was on the 3hr live chat.
I'll upload some DSL Stats graphs for those interested (over multiple posts)
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More graphs
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Final graph and BT DSL Check (taken a few months ago when I was still on a BT line using phone number)
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Glad you got a result with respect to US data speed restoration.
Certainly no glaring anomalies that I can see in the DSLStats snapshots you have posted.
US ES rate is quite high but must still be within the acceptable DLM parameters as US G.Inp has not been applied.
DS G.Inp is active which will of course suppress the DS error rate, G.Inp re-tx profile is high which will limit your DS BRAS IP profile to approx 93% of DS synch speed as opposed to approx 97% on re-tx low profile.
From the BTw Availability Checker you posted, you are certainly getting poor DS speed performance with respected to line predictions, 73/49 Mbps high/low even on impacted, of course the impacted handback threshold is 40 Mbps which is just under your current line speed.
I know TT are "funny" with their exchange based LLU system but as FTTC is on OR network would have thought you could still access the BTw Availability Checker, not the case?
Out of interest, can you possibly post a snapshot of the DSLStats SNRM graph preferably over a 24 hour time scale which should give a good indication of just how noisy or impacted your line is.
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Thanks for looking at the graphs - appreciate it and good to hear that nothing bad sticks out.
I've never been happy with my BTw based FTTC connection, especially when compared to the stats that I used to get with Digital Region (the cabinet was sighted next to the BT one so same line length). I can live with the 40Mb down. It is fine for almost everything (could do with more when streaming 4K content), but the 7Mb upload is a bit of a killer at times.
This is the only copy of stats I have from by Digital Region days - I was probably the only customer on the cabinet (once of the reasons it shut down). Same phone line with same modem!
Digital Region Stats:
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 21264 Kbps, Downstream rate = 72184 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 10997 Kbps, Downstream rate = 43998 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 18.4 17.0
Attn(dB): 0.0 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 8.4 1.1
VDSL2 framing
Path 0
B: 223 191
M: 1 1
T: 64 11
R: 16 16
S: 0.1619 0.5547
L: 11856 3000
D: 197 375
I: 240 26
N: 240 208
Counters
Path 0
OHF: 266025 64544
OHFErr: 1 1
RS: 17025549 673880
RSCorr: 234 157
RSUnCorr: 38 0
Path 0
HEC: 51 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 58507817 0
Data Cells: 85631 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
ES: 1 1
SES: 0 0
UAS: 111 111
AS: 690
Path 0
INP: 1.00 1.00
PER: 2.59 10.67
delay: 8.00 7.00
OR: 92.62 36.71
Bitswap: 1 0
The day my Digital Region connection was switched over to BTw, I looked at the change in stats and my heart sank. I've had 3 Openreach Engineers over the years as every time I switch suppliers my connection is always less than promised.
My SNR doesn't really change through the day, except for + and - 0.1 dB. The line can stay connected for weeks or even months at a time if I let it.
Not sure how to change the DSLStats graph to zoom out and show a 24 hour period.
With regards to the BT DSL Checker website, as I don't have a BT phone line I can't use my phone number to look up the most accurate data. I can only use Postcode/Address which they say isn't as accurate. I've attached one though taken today for comparison.
Annoying that my speeds are lower than expected as a friend that lives around the corner is connected to the same cabinet at a similar distance. She has very slightly higher predicted speeds according to the checker (BT line to should be accurate). She is getting 60/20 at the moment.
I've been considering the 'Three' 5G service instead, as since I got my iPhone 12 I see I get speeds like this inside the house (upload is better if I go outside):
https://www.speedtest.net/my-result/i/4368379639
Many thanks :)
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Yes, as long as your US data speed remains reasonable your line performance its probably as good as it gets on FTTC, with the DS handback speed threshold being "just" satisified it's unlikely you will get any further investigative or remedial action from TT or OR.
You could try to encourage DLM to change your G.Inp DS re-tx profile to low which should increase the BRAS IP profile (and data speed) by approx 2 Mbps for the same DS synch speed, the DS FEC error rate you posted does not look too bad, this is "believed" to be one of the main factors that DLM considers as to whether your line will remain on low re-tx profile once achieved.
The method of encouraging a DLM re-tx profile change is DS modem speed capping which has been explained extensively on a number of forum posts, can take a long time to implement especially first time around, my line initially took 14 days with quite a severe modem clamp.
My SNR doesn't really change through the day, except for + and - 0.1 dB. The line can stay connected for weeks or even months at a time if I let it.
Not sure how to change the DSLStats graph to zoom out and show a 24 hour period.
Just let it run for at least 24 hours then snapshot.
DSLStats can scroll back once you have collected over a (page worth) of data, I run mine on a 4 day/page cycle and auto-archieve the results to LAN for future reference, sad I know but does help in the event of any line issues.
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SNR Graphs attached...
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Rest of the 24 hour graphs.
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Not a lot to say regarding the SNRM graph snapshots, very smooth, with DS on 3 dB, very likely as good as it gets.
I would have expected that the amount of crosstalk that you suspect exists would have had a much greater impact on the SNRM graph.
Attached for reference, SNRM snapshots of my relatively clean, low noise line (low density area) and my daughters noisy (very high density area) VDSL-2 lines, not difficult to spot the difference!
Both are on a 4 day page with 2 min's sample rate.
As long as the US data rate remains proportional to the US synch speed you are likely at the end of the line regarding further investigation unless any other forum patrons have further suggestions, as mentioned previously, you could go through the modem DS speed capping exercise and should eventually persuade DLM to change DS G.Inp re-tx to low profile and gain approx 2 Mbps DS data speed increase if you think it's worth the effort.