Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ISPs => Topic started by: Pwiggler on July 26, 2008, 10:44:12 AM
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hi all,
i'm pretty sick to my back teeth now with having to put up with BT using ellacoyas to QOS/shape my traffic so i was thinking of moving to a different isp, heres where my question starts:
when bt sell bandwidth to another isp (ie aol), do bts ellacoyas shape their traffic as well or do the purchasing isp apply their own method of traffic shaping? (if that makes sense)
.... so therefore i could end up a much less shaped connection??
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Ellacoyas are operated by ISPs, so if you change to a different ISP you will no longer be affected by BT Broadband's Ellacoyas.
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cheers Eric :)
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>> bts ellacoyas shape their traffic as well or do the purchasing isp apply their own method of traffic shaping?
Its BT Wholesale that sells the backhaul which is a completely different company to BT retail.
BTBroadband is part of the BT retail group.
Confused? :D
Its up to the ISP to put their own ellacoyas on (although this can change with 21CN, where if the ISP wants they can use BT Wholesale to control traffic).
.. and on top of that there is some very low level QoS that goes on at the exchanges to give priority to certain traffic if the exchange is busy.. but its far from the ellacoya type stuff.
ATM its BTBroadbands ellecoyas that are controlling your traffic.
>> so therefore i could end up a much less shaped connection??
You could indeed.. but be careful because there are a few ISPs whose traffic shaping is much worse than BTs.
http://www.kitz.co.uk/isp/caps.htm
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Gosh that was quick with the replies
/must learn to type quicker :D
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Just on the off-chance.
Don't sign up for one of their higher packages, but sign up on a lower package, then if satisfied you can always upgrade, at least this way you do not end up paying for something you either can't get or use.
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cheers all !
i'll have to look at whats available and what they can offer.
atm i pay £4 and unlimited telephone calls in the uk and the way mrs pwiggler hammers it, i'll have to choose carefully.
my line is capable of 8 meg but i want the cheep calls as well?? any ideas??
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There's always TalkTalk. :-X
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You could leave the phone with BT for their Anytime package and use another ISP for adsl.
atm Im with BT for phone but on LLU adsl.
When I get my lazy ass in gear though.. Im thinking of going for this package which is cheaper than BT, and about the cheapest package out there (for my use anyhow)
http://www.plus.net/residential/phonecalls/home/index.shtml
Warning though you need to add on £1.50 for caller display (http://www.plus.net/residential/phonecalls/home/homephone_features.shtml), but its still cheaper than BT.
I was originally put off by
If you don't have PlusNet broadband, you'll need to get it so that you can have Home Phone
but Ive been told thats only because they cant do the automated signup online for phone only..
However if you contact any of the reps (theres a couple who frequent this forum) they can do the signup manually, even if you dont have Plusnet adsl.
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thanks for that, the plusnet package with anytime calls is £35 per month. i had a look at orange's packages as well which works out at £25 pm, but thats only evening and w/e free calls.
hmmmmmmmm .... still thinking
just looked at plus.nets site and they give details of what traffic shaping to expect and on option 3 its down to .25mbs in the day time :(
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So switching your phone from BT Retail (part of the BT Group) to Plusnet (part of the BT Group) saves money?
Priceless :lol:
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yeah seems silly doesnt it.
Mind you PN is cheaper than BT for adsl anyhow.
The one that always amazed me when they first started doing things like that was when the post-office started offering things cheaper than BT.. maybe I recall the term "GPO" too much.
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Mind you its not as stupid as when Br Gas started saying that they could supply electricity cheaper than the electric co.
And the Leccy co started saying that "their Gas" was cheaper than the Gas companies. ??? ??? ???
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I recently changed telephone from BT to Plusnet Anytime+ for one of my friends who was only on dialup with PN. As Kitz said, it has to be done manually and it is best to contact one of the reps.
I would imagine that you would have to sign up to a PAYG dialup account on the PN portal first.
I've used Anytime+ for quite a while and IMO it is good value for money. Also, they have a pretty good fault reporting system where if you press the correct number for telephone faults you are not queued and the call is answered immediately (also it's a geographical number). I had a fault a few months ago and it was sorted promptly and efficiently - no waiting for the call to be answered by somebody abroad.
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thanks for that, the plusnet package with anytime calls is £35 per month. i had a look at orange's packages as well which works out at £25 pm, but thats only evening and w/e free calls.
hmmmmmmmm .... still thinking
just looked at plus.nets site and they give details of what traffic shaping to expect and on option 3 its down to .25mbs in the day time :(
You could always go with Tiscali Anytime Talk with BBand Option 2 LLU :o 8)!!
Anytime Local and Int. Calls. 8meg Unlimited Broadband, Free Line Rental & Caller Display @ 48p a month ;D £20.48 p.m
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/talk/
Its a great package and their phone service is great, and when the broadband is set up and configured correctly it is a great service. I have been with them for 5years and only recently went on their Talk and BBand Package.
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The vast majority of ISP phone packages use something called WLR (Wholesale Line Rental) which is basically the same BT service only rebadged by the ISP (and sometimes sold a bit cheaper).
Some ISPs have installed their own kit in the exchanges.
ISPs that use WLR for phone off the top of my head are
Plusnet
Sky
BT (obviously)
PostOffice
IDNet
Vodafone
Vispa
.. and lots more
ISPs that use MPF :-
CPW Group (TalkTalk + AOL)
Orange
Tiscali Group (Tiscali + Pipex + Bulldog)
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finally got a MAC from BT after 5 emails requesting it. in the end i had to resort to threatening to report them to ofcom.
had another look around and sky seem to be a good choice atm. 8meg bb and free anytime telephone call for £34.00.
thats £16.00 cheeper than bt!
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finally got a MAC from BT after 5 emails requesting it. in the end i had to resort to threatening to report them to ofcom.
had another look around and sky seem to be a good choice atm. 8meg bb and free anytime telephone call for £34.00.
thats £16.00 cheeper than bt!
Sky BB is aparently very good! Have you considered they Upto 16meg Bband? £5 more than the 8meg but it is unlimited?
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finally got a MAC from BT after 5 emails requesting it. in the end i had to resort to threatening to report them to ofcom.
had another look around and sky seem to be a good choice atm. 8meg bb and free anytime telephone call for £34.00.
thats £16.00 cheeper than bt!
Good luck with sky and hope all goes well on migration day. :)
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>> Have you considered they Upto 16meg Bband? £5 more than the 8meg
Pwigglers connection may not be able to support the higher speeds, at 42dB attentuation he's already on the limits somewhere around 8Mbps, although he may push a lil bit more with adsl2.
>> but it is unlimited?
Its not unlimited - they have a FUP policy, which admittedly is fairly generous at around 250GB.
If pwiggler does less than 40GB per month (which the vast majority of users do), then theres no point him paying for the extra.
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Nowadays even I don't use 40GB (P2P torrents)
It's always far better to start on a low/lower contract, then upgrade at a later date if necessary.
If they can't supply what you have asked for, it could be hard work arguing the fact they are not providing a certain service to get your fee reduced.
Wheras they will soon upgrade you without any problem.
At least that way you will have been able to run the checks needed etc.
Although Kitz has already pointed out the stats (which I don't understand so am saying no more on that subject)
A few months ago, when I was also looking for a new ISP, there only seemed to be 2 that was of interest to me, "BE" and "Sky", unfortunately BE is not in my area, but Sky looked very promising.
The only reason I eventually did not change was because circumstances changed with VM.
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@of, Likewise, I don't really download 40gb in a month, I don't use p2p or torrents or anything really Bandwidth hungry, just download the odd song or video/movie from iTunes.
@kitz, sorry, I didn't know the state of pwigglers line :-X
However, I though Sky LLU used ADSL2+ on all its broadband services, not just the Upto 16meg one? I maybe wrong? :-\
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theres no LLUs in our exchange :no:
just rang sky and they said i godda have a tv package as well !!! for another £17 pm :no:
they said they would give no a cheeper broadband deal and free phone which would bring it down to £37pm for 6 months, then a fiver more...
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Yep, that sounds like the "nearly basic package" I also looked at.
But again worked out roughly £14PM cheaper than VM (at the time)
There is also the free BB option, but the limits are a bit on the low side, but that would reduce it by about £10.
OR, Virgin Media?
10MB BB, Telephone & TV (starter package) £24.50.
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Just re-read your original post.
atm i pay £4 and unlimited telephone calls in the uk and the way mrs pwiggler hammers it, i'll have to choose carefully.
my line is capable of 8 meg but i want the cheep calls as well??
How bad is your service?
Does it warrent a further contract?
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>> I though Sky LLU used ADSL2+ on all its broadband services, not just the Upto 16meg one? I maybe wrong?
No they dont.
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>> theres no LLUs in our exchange
You'll have to got for the more expensive sky connect then :/
Are there any LLU providers at all at your exchange?
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adslchecker.php
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Sorry to Jump on the thread:
Zen does do voice now aswell.
http://zen.co.uk/Broadband/S_Business.aspx - ADSL Packages
http://zen.co.uk/Voice/Broadband-Voice.aspx - Zen Voice
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no kitz, no LLUs at all, VM tried to get in our village before i moved here but they had a protest about diggiing everywhere up so they were banned.
@OF, yep its the connect package .... spoke to them again last night and got the dish, receiver, 8 meg BB (40gb limit will just about do), free phone calls anytime for £32 in the end so i ordered it. i can also buy additional tv packages for £1.00 each.
the reason for the change if coz i'll be saving £18 pm and I still cant get over BT lying to me about traffic shaping .. i got quite a bee in my bonnet about it.
just hope i havent jumped out of the frying pan into the fire :o
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oh ... OF ... i was with VM in my last house. had the BB, phone and TV.
i rang their disconnection dept and asked to cancel everytthing, so they offered to increase my connection from 4meg to 10meg free of charge, i said no so they offered me half price phone line rental, i said no again, then he offered me free tv, half price BB and half price telephone calls. i again said no so he said i can have thelot for free for 6 months and if i stay with them they'll apply the discounts they just offered me ....
saved me £40pm !!!
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Yes I think Virgin Media will do just about anything to retain a customer.
As with my own recent experience, not only did I save £20.01PM but it also saved all the hassle of not only changing ISP's but also changing Router, Telephone Install and re-routing of line etc etc.
And sometimes, better the devil you know.
But they are also very cunning, because they have now sent me a email thanking me for changing/upgrading my package but also started a new 12 month contract.
Did you not consider Virgin Media this time around to change to?
BB, but through a telephone line.
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i did look at em OF but they also throttle like mad on adsl connections so i've heard
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This is the "Throttling" times for Cable BB.
I don't know if it's the same for ADSL, but I would of thought so.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi92.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl39%2Foldfogy%2FvirginTrafficManagement.jpg&hash=fd2f0c19afd1959d4a00c5c9bb926aef603ed213)
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Sorry to Jump on the thread:
Zen does do voice now aswell.
http://zen.co.uk/Broadband/S_Business.aspx - ADSL Packages
http://zen.co.uk/Voice/Broadband-Voice.aspx - Zen Voice
Thanks Azzaka, but I think pwiggler meant line rental?
Do Zen do WLR, or is that just voice over IP?
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migration went ok apart from them telling mrs pwiggler i asked them install sky tv when i specifically told them that i dont want it installing coz of my media center setup which is a bit percarious. but they didnt damage anything but i've got a bloody telephone cable stapled across my front room wall >:D
ip profile is 6000 which is a bit lower than when i was with BT.
but guess what ....... torrent shaping down to .5meg when they said they dont shape apart from 5 - 12 at night >:D >:D >:D
nntp runs at approx 4meg tho but they dont have any usenet servers any more so i godda pay for astraweb new access.
i've emailed them about it and awaiting their reply.
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Pwiggler.
This might also be of interest.
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=2953.new#new
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Sorry to Jump on the thread:
Zen does do voice now aswell.
http://zen.co.uk/Broadband/S_Business.aspx - ADSL Packages
http://zen.co.uk/Voice/Broadband-Voice.aspx - Zen Voice
Thanks Azzaka, but I think pwiggler meant line rental?
Do Zen do WLR, or is that just voice over IP?
Just the VoIP. The only LLU we have is in the Manc Exchanges. And no hard Voice yet. Maybe for the furture though.
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cheers OF for that but i'm on the 'connect' package which is for the non-LLU exchanges so it doesnt apply to me.
i rang them today coz i didnt get an answer from the email and the tech woman who i got thru to was sorry that she had not heard of NNTP or bittorrent protocols !! poor girl !
she escallated it to their 2nd level but they havent rang me >:D
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cheers OF for that but i'm on the 'connect' package which is for the non-LLU exchanges so it doesnt apply to me.
i rang them today coz i didnt get an answer from the email and the tech woman who i got thru to was sorry that she had not heard of NNTP or bittorrent protocols !! poor girl !
she escallated it to their 2nd level but they havent rang me >:D
This might sound silly,but why is someone employed as a technical support operative when they don't know nothing about the subject.
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>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
just come off the phone from sky for an hour !!!
after speaking to 1st level, 2nd level, escallations and then 'super brains', they tried every fob-off possible to blame me, my equipment and BT for the slow nntp/bittorrent traffic to which i had an answer for every fob.
in the end he said 'it cant be changed so go to another isp'.
my good god !!! this is after i was PROMISED there would only be traffic shaping between 5pm and midnight.
i'm at my wits end.
any suggestions peeps??
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>> i'm on the 'connect' package which is for the non-LLU exchanges
In that thread theres a little bit of info about the Sky connect.. but rumour has it that its very recently (like this week) they have started traffic management on the sky connect accounts.
17th Sept (http://www.broadbandchoices.co.uk/sky-ditches-fair-usage-policy-170908.html)
Sky has decided to balance things out by adding traffic management to the package which already has a 40GB monthly allowance.
This is in addition to the 40GB allowance, and in view of this being such a recent development I bet thats why theyve told you to go to another ISP.
One consolation with being on Connect and not LLU is that it should be easy enough to migrate.
What sort of speeds are you seeing Pwiggler? Is the .5Mb just on p2p and 4Mb on binaries.. and just at peak or all the time?
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my good god !!! this is after i was PROMISED there would only be traffic shaping between 5pm and midnight.
i'm at my wits end.
any suggestions peeps??
Move to Zen???
Just a thought really. :angel:
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sorry for the delay, i've had a week in skeggy.
i'm getting 4ish meg on nntp when it feels like it, 5pm one day its fast then 5pm the next day its down to 50kbps.
p2p is dreadfull all the time, no matter what time of the day.
i requested a MAC the last time i spoke to them which i found on my doorstep when i got back but that doesnt entitle me to cancel the whole tv/phone service so i'm stuck now.
booooooooooooooo
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..... but that doesnt entitle me to cancel the whole tv/phone service so i'm stuck now.
Surely that would depend on if it was part of a package deal.
As they are not supplying "in whole" what they said they would!
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:'(
As OF says, it may be worthwhile pressing them on the fact that you only subscribed to a package after their assurances over the adsl.
It sounds like they may have already realised that they gave out duff info re the adsl hence why they have supplied the MAC without further ado.. so perhaps a little bit more pressure may do no harm.
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Just a thought.
Don't they also say to get BB "You have to take the other packages"?
You are forced to have the TV box, or else you can't get BB.
I'm pretty sure they did when I was looking into changing over a couple of months ago.
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i dont know what has happened but since saturday my torrents and nntp have been running at a rock solid 5.5mbs .... day and night !
i havent heard anything about a change in policy from sky ... has anyone?
i sync on sky is 6400 but on BT it was 8000 ! might try disconnecting the sky tv box from the phone socket and see what happens.
tried to get routerstats to work but it cant log into my router - socket error .... hmmm
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>> i havent heard anything about a change in policy from sky ... has anyone?
nope
>> i sync on sky is 6400 but on BT it was 8000 !
Sky put you on maximum interleaving by default, this will likely reduce the maximum speed at what you can sync at. Unlike BTw systems they wont switch interleaving off, but may reduce the interleaving depth.