Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => Telephony Wiring + Equipment => Topic started by: GigabitEthernet on October 17, 2020, 03:54:04 PM

Title: Broadband stabiliser and line conditioner?
Post by: GigabitEthernet on October 17, 2020, 03:54:04 PM
Has anyone ever seen one of these before? https://www.amazon.co.uk/I-CHOOSE-LIMITED-Broadband-Stabiliser-Conditioner/dp/B084VSBY5W

They've got amazing reviews, seems a bit too good to be true to me.

I get thousands and thousands of FECs on my line, it's never caused an issue but wonder if this would help, purely from a curiosity POV.
Title: Re: Broadband stabiliser and line conditioner?
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on October 17, 2020, 04:00:02 PM
Presumably that just has an inductor in it like the later filtered faceplates.  It might help if you have an older faceplate or a crap plug-in filter, but I'd always prefer to stick with an official Openreach solution.
Title: Re: Broadband stabiliser and line conditioner?
Post by: burakkucat on October 17, 2020, 04:55:31 PM
Has anyone ever seen one of these before? https://www.amazon.co.uk/I-CHOOSE-LIMITED-Broadband-Stabiliser-Conditioner/dp/B084VSBY5W

The phrase "snake oil" comes to mind.

Quote
I get thousands and thousands of FECs on my line, it's never caused an issue but wonder if this would help, purely from a curiosity POV.

Remember that FECs are "CRCs that never happened" because the forward error detection and correction code has done its job. I.e. all is well.
Title: Re: Broadband stabiliser and line conditioner?
Post by: GigabitEthernet on October 17, 2020, 05:46:14 PM
The phrase "snake oil" comes to mind.

Remember that FECs are "CRCs that never happened" because the forward error detection and correction code has done its job. I.e. all is well.

Surely it indicates some kind of underlying noise etc, this is what I have always thought to be the case around here.

Code: [Select]
Since Link time = 3 days 5 hours 28 min 13 sec
FEC: 132906224 489
CRC: 66 238
ES: 21 132
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0

I've seen few lines here with as many FECs as I get. As I say, it seems to cause few issues but it's always been there.

I do wonder if vectoring has something to do with it, as it's a rare thing and therefore has not been studied in the detail of say G.INP.
Title: Re: Broadband stabiliser and line conditioner?
Post by: CarlT on October 17, 2020, 06:08:10 PM
Vectoring isn't a rare thing in other places and has been worked on plenty with regards to other settings.

The FECs could quite easily be spurious. Either way that device can't help you. It could only filter noise just before it hits the modem and only outside the VDSL spectrum. A passive device like that can't do anything else.

A decent faceplate to isolate in-home wiring from VDSL is the best that we can do.
Title: Re: Broadband stabiliser and line conditioner?
Post by: GigabitEthernet on October 17, 2020, 06:37:10 PM
Vectoring isn't a rare thing in other places and has been worked on plenty with regards to other settings.

The FECs could quite easily be spurious. Either way that device can't help you. It could only filter noise just before it hits the modem and only outside the VDSL spectrum. A passive device like that can't do anything else.

A decent faceplate to isolate in-home wiring from VDSL is the best that we can do.

Fair enough, I only posted it out of interest! No idea the cause of the FECs, as I say they've never caused any issue - but they are far higher than many other comparable lines I've seen.

Anyway, I'll refrain from posting random/interesting devices again in the future, all the best.
Title: Re: Broadband stabiliser and line conditioner?
Post by: CarlT on October 17, 2020, 09:33:06 PM
I'm not quite sure why the passive-aggressive response but okay. I was somewhat terse because I was in a hurry.
Title: Re: Broadband stabiliser and line conditioner?
Post by: Westie on October 17, 2020, 09:57:03 PM
...I'll refrain from posting random/interesting devices again in the future, all the best.

On the contrary, I think this forum is probably the BEST place to ask such questions. You did say "seems a bit too good to be true", and you have had your suspicions confirmed. You may have thought CarlT's reply was a little brusque, but he did give solid reasons why the gizmo wouldn't help, and now we all know too.

Thanks for raising the issue.
Title: Re: Broadband stabiliser and line conditioner?
Post by: Weaver on October 18, 2020, 06:02:08 AM
Seriously though, thanks for an interesting post.  ;D
Title: Re: Broadband stabiliser and line conditioner?
Post by: ejs on October 18, 2020, 06:20:59 AM
Actually, if it contains an interference filter similar to what is in the MK2/3/4 faceplates, then it will filter interference within the VDSL spectrum. Whether or not it will help any particular line depends on the circumstances of that line, the same is if the filter in the MK2/3/4 or certain Zyxel modems helps or not.
Title: Re: Broadband stabiliser and line conditioner?
Post by: mrk26 on October 18, 2020, 10:05:27 AM
Has anyone ever seen one of these before? https://www.amazon.co.uk/I-CHOOSE-LIMITED-Broadband-Stabiliser-Conditioner/dp/B084VSBY5W

They've got amazing reviews, seems a bit too good to be true to me.

I get thousands and thousands of FECs on my line, it's never caused an issue but wonder if this would help, purely from a curiosity POV.
If you need feedback for these (I got one plugged in).
Can't complain, it raise my attenuation from 12db to 13db what make vigor 2760 work properly. Before I plug that vigor tend to loose snr, always dropping, even then attenuation speed increases vigor never recovered snr. With this thing plugged in, vigor was able to go back to 6 db. Without tweaking snr line stats looked very boring (like FEC up to 600, CRC 100, ES 80) so I decided to reduce snr for higher speed (eci cabinet btw). Now I may get 1000 FECs daily maybe not (depend of the weather  ;)) es may be 100.
I'm overall happy with this thing plugged in and I personally can see benefits.
Don't understand people who didn't tried and have a lot to say about...
Hopefully I won't have to look on vdsl stats much longer as FTTP is on the way  :cool:
Title: Re: Broadband stabiliser and line conditioner?
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on October 18, 2020, 03:20:03 PM
If you need feedback for these (I got one plugged in).

Do you have a filtered faceplate and if so which version?  If not, what microfilter are you using?
Title: Re: Broadband stabiliser and line conditioner?
Post by: mrk26 on October 18, 2020, 07:23:23 PM
I got mk4 faceplate and this stabiliser just behind modem. Not using any microfilters.
Title: Re: Broadband stabiliser and line conditioner?
Post by: neil on November 26, 2020, 08:34:45 PM
Quote from: burakkucat
The phrase "snake oil" comes to mind.

Remember that FECs are "CRCs that never happened" because the forward error detection and correction code has done its job. I.e. all is well.


wow 😲 thanks for info and is there any delay penalty for these corrections?
One more question
I used to get 5-6ms ping to gateway with fast path and 0 delay
now it is "Delay (msec): 2" and my ping is 8-9ms to gateway

and why this delay is higher compared to fiber?

whats this interleave thing?
Title: Re: Broadband stabiliser and line conditioner?
Post by: burakkucat on November 26, 2020, 10:33:49 PM
I used to get 5-6ms ping to gateway with fast path and 0 delay
now it is "Delay (msec): 2" and my ping is 8-9ms to gateway

and why this delay is higher compared to fiber?

whats this interleave thing?

I'll let Kitz explain it . . . Please take a look at the "Interleaving Explained (https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/interleaving.htm)" and the "xDSL Broadband Data - Error Correction (https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/error_correction.htm)" pages.
Title: Re: Broadband stabiliser and line conditioner?
Post by: Weaver on November 27, 2020, 01:23:49 AM
> there any delay penalty for these corrections?

Reed-Solomon error correction doesn’t have any delay associated with it, but it effectively slows the data rate down by adding extra bytes of error correction information on to the end of transmitted data, so making it longer and taking longer to send, but it’s just a slower data rate, not a delay.

Another type of error correction, G.INP, does sometimes have a slight delay associated with it, where parts of a message are retransmitted if they are received in error.

You can read about interleave in Burakkucat’s link to Kitz’s page; does have a constant delay associated with it, of an amount set according to the ‘interleave depth’.
Title: Re: Broadband stabiliser and line conditioner?
Post by: neil on November 28, 2020, 11:39:42 AM
I'll let Kitz explain it . . . Please take a look at the "Interleaving Explained (https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/interleaving.htm)" and the "xDSL Broadband Data - Error Correction (https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/error_correction.htm)" pages.
thank you 🤗