Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Hardware => Topic started by: banger on September 03, 2020, 08:06:05 PM
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I have been having PPP drops on my Asus RT-AC68U so I converted it to a wifi AP and turned my ZyXel VMG-1312-B10A into a router which was being used as a bridge modem. I have 3 Zyxels and earlier in the year PPP was dropping so I swapped out the modems and it stopped. But recently it started happening again so I reconfigured the Zyxel as a router but it dropped at 8.34 this morning. I have a script to download a 1gb at 32 minutes past the hour every hour and the ZyXel was fine up til 8.34 this morning. It usually gets to about 800mb downloaded and then the PPP drops and its very random.
I have swapped the Zyxel with a 3rd 1312 and it has been fine all today, further testing needed. I have been talking to my ISP and they want to send an engineer but I doubt they will have the skills to diagnose this type of fault as it only drops when under load. Could it be I am not powering off the Zyxel often enough?
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Sounds like you need to change to a good ISP if they can’t sort this out for you. You shouldn’t be powering the ZyXEL off ever, of course.
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Well Ive swapped to HG612 to test. The Zyxel was up 2 months almost before my line started playing up.
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Sounds like you need to change to a good ISP if they can’t sort this out for you. You shouldn’t be powering the ZyXEL off ever, of course.
Uno are one of the best. Maybe not quite in AA's league, but probably the best of the rest and have already offered Tim an engineer visit, so don't think they are doing much wrong.
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I agree they got BTO to dig up my drive for a new cable gratis.
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So my PPP session dropped 3 times today under load, ISP is contacting OR to send an engineer. But even their own session history says "Port error" when the line drops so I am hoping for a port swap although DSL is rock solid with HG 612.
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Well this is getting frustrating. Uno are saying that port error in their session history could be anything. This has been going on for months and I have sent numerous routers back as faulty due to this PPP session disconnect fault.
I have now tried numerous makes of router and modem and it does it with all of them. Uno are also telling me it is unlikely OR will do a port swap or lift and shift as they term it as the line is likely to prove clear. It's like I dont exist and my swapping of routers counts for nothing. I am now using BT OR modem and Asus router with default settings which countless other users must be using successfully. Now considering A&A.
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Well this is getting frustrating. Uno are saying that port error in their session history could be anything. This has been going on for months and I have sent numerous routers back as faulty due to this PPP session disconnect fault.
To be fair, if your line stays in sync it seems unlikely its a problem with the DSLAM port.
This is a frustratingly difficult problem to diagnose and switching ISPs could very well be the best option, as it would eliminate the ISP as the problem. (as its the ISPs kit your PPP session is terminating on so perhaps where the problem lies)
Notice what AA say port error refers to: https://support.aa.net.uk/Line_State_Colours
"L2TP relay failure, or L2TP tunnel level close"
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Thanks for that Alex. I have never tested the line this hard before but I suspect this has been going on a while. I have now reconfigured my ZyXel as a router as I really didn't test it hard before and the Asus as AP. A&A is on my list to change to if Uno cant fix this.
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AA also has this ‘fix your line in a month (https://www.aa.net.uk/broadband/we-will-fix-your-line)’ deal where they will take you on with a fault and will even give you your money back if they can’t fix your problem in a month.
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Thanks for that Weaver. I wrote to Openreach CEO on Saturday and today a Network specialist called me who will own the problem until it is fixed he said. I will keep the A&A option in mind. Only trouble with A&A is they have fixed limits which I might go over downloading 1gb every hour to test the line.
Edit: Emailed A&A support for an opinion.
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I am a longtime AA customer, and I don’t have fixed limits. No quota. I use their ‘units (https://www.aa.net.uk/broadband/units/)’ tariff which has no limits; you get charged for what you use downstream (on fixed lines, only downstream packets are charged; upstream is free). You can use what you like and it’s slightly cheaper if you pre-purchase ‘units’ of download bytes. Units tariff is very expensive in the daytime mon-fri but incredibly cheap overnight 02:00-05:59 BST.
You don’t need to download huge amounts to test the line with AA; and it would bankrupt you. AA continually tests the line every few seconds; measures the latency and checks for packet loss: See https://support.aa.net.uk/CQM_Graphs You get pretty pictures that show you the line performance minute by minute and also show your traffic usage.
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I am a longtime AA customer, and I don’t have fixed limits. No quota. I use their ‘units (https://www.aa.net.uk/broadband/units/)’ tariff which has no limits; you get charged for what you use downstream (on fixed lines, only downstream packets are charged; upstream is free). You can use what you like and it’s slightly cheaper if you pre-purchase ‘units’ of download bytes. Units tariff is very expensive in the daytime mon-fri but incredibly cheap overnight 02:00-05:59 BST.
You don’t need to download huge amounts to test the line with AA; and it would bankrupt you. AA continually tests the line every few seconds; measures the latency and checks for packet loss: See https://support.aa.net.uk/CQM_Graphs You get pretty pictures that show you the line performance minute by minute and also show your traffic usage.
That's the trouble I do need to download 1gb per hour as that is when the fault occurs. That looks way to expensive when I put my useage in the calculater. Uno's unlimited option gives me less worry.
I've just had an email from the Chief Engineer at Openreach noting some problems with routers in bridge mode. It was not addressed to me, merely a CC but will be interesting to see what the Network Engineer comes up with.
Also a thought had occured to me, with OR updating the Line cards what if the VMG-1312-B10A is no longer compatible with the OR linecards/dslam. I have a VMG-1312-B10D on its way to me hopefully which is on the current OR approved list.
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You don’t need to download huge amounts to test the line with AA; and it would bankrupt you. AA continually tests the line every few seconds; measures the latency and checks for packet loss: See https://support.aa.net.uk/CQM_Graphs You get pretty pictures that show you the line performance minute by minute and also show your traffic usage.
His issue is his PPP session terminates when he does large file transfers.
He needs to run large file downloads to replicate the issue.
Uno run practically identical line monitoring to AAISP.
An example of this from Bangers line is attached.
I actually prefer how Uno display the data.
It's just a Broadband Quality monitor which you can setup for free on ThinkBroadband, who use a FireBrick FB6000 series ping box like AAISP.
Going by the TBB thread Uno have progressed the ticket within a few hours.
Matt himself is keeping an eye on the ticket and I'm sure they'll get to the bottom of it.
The answer isn't always switch to AAISP.
Their cost for what is a metered service is ridiculously expensive particularly for those who consume large amounts of data.
Banger would use over 37.5% of their largest monthly quota running his hourly tests alone.
Uno are a good ISP and given the proper time to investigate the issue will likely get to the bottom of it.
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His issue is his PPP session terminates when he does large file transfers.
Every 4 hours so far as I can tell.
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So I had a port swap this afternoon. But been told not to hammer the line testing or DLM might think it is line instability. OR think it is the router at fault but I have a VMG-1312-B10D coming on Wednesday to test. So I will do random tests to see if it is stable.
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PPP doesn't effect the DLM.
By testing they mean don't do anything that will break the DSL link.
A line has the same ES/CRC etc whether you are downloading or not.
If by "hammering the line" you mean doing large downloads then that will have no impact what so ever.
The fact this breaks your PPP session and not the DSL link points more at the ISP's hardware your session terminates on being at fault.
If the port swap fixes it though then great.
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Thanks John for your informed thoughts. I will do random tests to start off with then a couple of days hammering it when the new router arriveds. Reason I have gone for the B10D is it is on the OR MCT Approved list and has recent firmware. If it is the router I can get on to ZyXel. If it is TTB gateway falling over I will be onto Uno. No one else seems to have these probs.
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I have a VMG-1312-B10D coming on Wednesday to test. So I will do random tests to see if it is stable.
I have a VMG1312-B10D which I keep as an emergency spare, had occasion to put it into service a few days ago, modem/router mode, it performed really badly on my line, slightly lower synch than normal but with all error rates very high, took it off again after a few hours but it had already upset DLM causing a further re-synch & parameter changes the next morning.
Huawei DSLAM with a fairly long line, normally achieve 40 Mbps DS synch max..
By comparison to the VMG1312-B10A I wouldn't expect too much from the VMG1312-B10D with it's lower spec. BCM chip set and the lack of the on-board filter but who knows, every line is unique !
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Thanks Tiffy, I can test and monitor. OR via Uno have detected interference so are sending an SFI engineer.
Edit: Tiffy what sort of sync speeds were you seeing with the different routers?
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@banger:
This post from a few months ago regarding frequent, random PPP session drop outs on an Asus RT-AC68U I purchased from Amazon may be of interest or relevant to your current issue:
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,24720.msg415781.html#msg415781
I eventually accepted that the unit was faulty and returned to Amazon for a full refund.
I was also using the Asus in bridge mode with a ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A as modem.
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Tiffy what sort of sync speeds were you seeing with the different routers?
With my VMG1312-B10A as modem I achieve very close to 40 Mbps DS synch and 5.6 Mbps US synch which is the max achievable for my line.
The VMG1312-B10D was 2 to 3 Mbps down on DS synch speed and with horrendous US/DS errror rates even with DS G.Inp active, my normal day to day ES rates are practically zero on the VMG1312-B10A.
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@banger:
This post from a few months ago regarding frequent, random PPP session drop outs on an Asus RT-AC68U I purchased from Amazon may be of interest or relevant to your current issue:
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,24720.msg415781.html#msg415781
I eventually accepted that the unit was faulty and returned to Amazon for a full refund.
I was also using the Asus in bridge mode with a ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A as modem.
I'm using the 1312-B10A as a router as I find it snappier than the Asus. Thanks for the Sync info.
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SFI cancelled. Both OR and SP agree after port change there should be a noteable pause to monitor the line to see how it performs.
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Quote by tiffy:
I was also using the Asus in bridge mode with a ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A as modem.
Apologies, a rather obvious and unnecessary statement on my part, with the Asus RT-AC68U being a router only was using the only possible "2 box" modem/router permutation with the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A combination.
Quote by banger:
I'm using the 1312-B10A as a router as I find it snappier than the Asus.
I take it you mean modem/router with the Asus RT-AC68U being a router only.
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Quote by tiffy:
Apologies, a rather obvious and unnecessary statement on my part, with the Asus RT-AC68U being a router only was using the only possible "2 box" modem/router permutation with the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A combination.
Quote by banger:
I take it you mean modem/router with the Asus RT-AC68U being a router only.
Yes modem/router and the Asus as Access Point. Although it just fell over again with a PPP disconnect so have swapped out now to TP-Link WD9970 modem router to rule out ZyXel.
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There was an overnight drop under load with the ZyXEl so have swapped modem/router to a TP-Link WD9970 and monitoring with random downloads.
Edit: Although the TP Link is about 5 megs sync slower I haven't seen any ES on my line since I swapped it.
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PPP just dropped with the TP-Link on load, it has to be ISP termination/gateway router.
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Hi
I was with UNO for years using various modems and the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A, as a router and in modem only mode, and never had random PPP drops, but no longer with them so can't say if I would be seeing the same as you now. However this was a thing at PlusNet many years ago when they put some of us on LLU, and turns out it was a configuration issue with their gateways and eventually it was fixed at their end.
Have you got a Thinkbroadband BQM set up, is there lots of packet loss or slow responses that could point to an issue with the line? If that chart is all okay then interference on the line at the xDSL level isn't your issue, and most lines in the UK will likely test positive for some interference, its the nature of the beast.
So if sync remains stable, error rates are in normal range, BQM shows no packet loss or other issues, then the problem is most likely at UNOs side (or kit en-route) under the assumption you've swapped your kit and ruled it out. If it started recently then does that coincide with any configuration changes or firmware updates UNO made to their kit, of course you may not have that level of information or it could be changes made elsewhere on Openreach's kit.
If UNO have no other customers they can see with the same issue in their logs then I would think it must be some kit sat in between somewhere and likely other people are affected with other ISPs, unless you can all get together, as a lone person trying to get it resolved, it could be a long battle. Swapping ISPs may resolve the issue, or it may continue, if it continues you will be starting again with a new ISP to get it resolved. Good luck, let us know how it goes.
Regards
Phil
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So I had a port swap this afternoon. But been told not to hammer the line testing or DLM might think it is line instability. OR think it is the router at fault but I have a VMG-1312-B10D coming on Wednesday to test. So I will do random tests to see if it is stable.
Can you confirm if it's a port swap on the same card or different card?
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Hi
I was with UNO for years using various modems and the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A, as a router and in modem only mode, and never had random PPP drops, but no longer with them so can't say if I would be seeing the same as you now. However this was a thing at PlusNet many years ago when they put some of us on LLU, and turns out it was a configuration issue with their gateways and eventually it was fixed at their end.
Have you got a Thinkbroadband BQM set up, is there lots of packet loss or slow responses that could point to an issue with the line? If that chart is all okay then interference on the line at the xDSL level isn't your issue, and most lines in the UK will likely test positive for some interference, its the nature of the beast.
So if sync remains stable, error rates are in normal range, BQM shows no packet loss or other issues, then the problem is most likely at UNOs side (or kit en-route) under the assumption you've swapped your kit and ruled it out. If it started recently then does that coincide with any configuration changes or firmware updates UNO made to their kit, of course you may not have that level of information or it could be changes made elsewhere on Openreach's kit.
If UNO have no other customers they can see with the same issue in their logs then I would think it must be some kit sat in between somewhere and likely other people are affected with other ISPs, unless you can all get together, as a lone person trying to get it resolved, it could be a long battle. Swapping ISPs may resolve the issue, or it may continue, if it continues you will be starting again with a new ISP to get it resolved. Good luck, let us know how it goes.
Regards
Phil
See my post on TBB for graphs and BQM. https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/4657726-re-line-drops-under-load-random.html
Phil I cant see any problems on the graphs around the drop times. It is random, I setup hourly testing of 1gb file and it would drop every 4 hours but OR said hammering the line would affect their monitoring so have changed it to d/l a file every 4 hours and random tests when I am on the PC. The is some PL around the drop times but that could be the actual disconnect itself on BQM.
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Can you confirm if it's a port swap on the same card or different card?
AFAIK its a different card.
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Hi
See my post on TBB for graphs and BQM. https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/4657726-re-line-drops-under-load-random.html
Phil I cant see any problems on the graphs around the drop times. It is random, I setup hourly testing of 1gb file and it would drop every 4 hours but OR said hammering the line would affect their monitoring so have changed it to d/l a file every 4 hours and random tests when I am on the PC. The is some PL around the drop times but that could be the actual disconnect itself on BQM.
Can see the packet loss but hard to know from that chart if the packet loss comes first which then causes PPP to drop, or PPP drops then you get the packet loss. It's unusual that noise on the line would cause enough errors to cause PPP to drop but doesn't cause the modem to resync, plus your errors logged are negligible.
Seems like this is an issue higher up the stack and not related to the physical connection.
One test you could try is putting the router in modem only mode then creating a PPPoE connection via a PC directly connected and try the downloads and see if that drops the connection still. This basically rules out anything your end including anything else on the network/Wi-Fi given you've already tried different modems/routers.
Good luck.
Regards
Phil
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Got my ZyXel VMG-1312-B10D today and it works well with a 3 dongle. It was Zen branded so after I cleared the ROM I was able to upgrade the firmware to the latest. I'm not 'allowed' to put it on my line because OR and Uno are monitoring DSL and also I want my 3db SNR back.
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Still getting disconnections under load. One thing I have noticed in my router log is below
2020-09-10 03:40:59 [6] PPP: ppp1 rcvd [LCP TermReq id=0xe5]
2020-09-10 03:40:59 [3] PPP: ppp1 LCP down
2020-09-10 03:40:59 [4] PPP: ppp1 LCP down
2020-09-10 03:40:59 [6] PPP: ppp1 sent [LCP TermAck id=0xe5]
2020-09-10 03:40:59 [6] PPP: ppp1 rcvd [LCP TermReq id=0x1]
2020-09-10 03:40:59 [6] PPP: ppp1 sent [LCP TermAck id=0x1]
Which looks like the server requested a termination of the session because of 0xe5 if only I know what that reason code was.
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Just had a DLM re-sync. Interleave from 4 DS to 8.
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The answer isn't always switch to AAISP.
This.
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I maybe jumping the gun, but as of 23:14 11.09.20 it appears fixed. Dont ask me what has changed other than sessions stay up and PPP echo packets appear to be getting through.
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Still waiting for 3db using a TP-Link router which seems stable. But I plan to re-instate the ZyXel VMG-1312-B10A when I have 3db back.
A question in the BB properties of the Zyxel, which is best for stability Auto Connect, Connect on Demand or Manual connect? What is yours set at?
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A question in the BB properties of the Zyxel, which is best for stability Auto Connect, Connect on Demand or Manual connect? What is yours set at?
PPP Trigger Type: Auto Connect
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Many thanks Mr B*Kat. Interesting.
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Changed router back to the ZyXel VMG-1312-B10A as it has higher sync and lower errors than the TP-Link WD9970.
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Just discovered that the 1312-B10A has DOS protection. Wondered why my speedtester was dropping pings as it works outbound as well as inbound. Now disabled.
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Uno Session History has no data now, backend problems apparently or to stop me looking at it. :lol:
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Still getting disconnections under load. One thing I have noticed in my router log is below
2020-09-10 03:40:59 [6] PPP: ppp1 rcvd [LCP TermReq id=0xe5]
2020-09-10 03:40:59 [3] PPP: ppp1 LCP down
2020-09-10 03:40:59 [4] PPP: ppp1 LCP down
2020-09-10 03:40:59 [6] PPP: ppp1 sent [LCP TermAck id=0xe5]
2020-09-10 03:40:59 [6] PPP: ppp1 rcvd [LCP TermReq id=0x1]
2020-09-10 03:40:59 [6] PPP: ppp1 sent [LCP TermAck id=0x1]
Which looks like the server requested a termination of the session because of 0xe5 if only I know what that reason code was.
http://pptpclient.sourceforge.net/howto-diagnosis.phtml#lcp_term_authentication
For the 0xe5 bit, I had to wander over to CCP
https://sourceforge.net/p/pptpclient/mailman/message/19160901/
rcvd [CCP TermReq id=0xe5]
CCP terminated by peer
sent [CCP TermAck id=0xe5]
Compression disabled by peer
Someone else is welcome to correct me, but this reads like a compression issue between the ISP and yourself.
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Thanks for that info, either way a server problem no? Anyway looks like it has been fixed.
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Yes server end