Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: Freedom2 on August 26, 2020, 10:59:56 PM
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Wonder if anyone can help me with an order that has been messed around by Openreach for pretty much whole of August and if they can give me any pointers
10th August
- Original activation date provided by which was missed, not totally clear why.
17th August
- Openreach claimed AM that fault between exchange and cabinet prevented work and engineer was not trained to resolve them.
18th August
- Openreach state to Sky issue between exchange and cabinet or cabinet and property, some confusion over which one this was, appears to be between cabinet and property, underground cabling fault which should be fixed by 20th Aug.
20th August
- Sky inform me that Openreach have ran into a delay and it won't be done until 24th August
24th August
- Sky confirm that Openreach have given a go-live date of 26th August which they assure will not be missed.
26th August - Fourth Activation Date Missed./
- Engineer calls to say he's switched me over to FTTC and if it doesn't work now to call my ISP
- I wasn't disconnected and am still on ADSL2+ and not FTTC and still on G992 modulation.
- Sky confirm that Openreach haven't done the work but they don't know why as no update is issued and wonder if he has done the work to the right line.
At this stage that's three activation dates that Openreach have missed and a lot of time on the phone discussing this matter. I do not know if the engineer was dishonest earlier or just plain incompetent, but it looks pretty certain that he didn't switch the line or at least the correct one.
Sky have a strong belief that they may have lost track which cabinet the line is on and activated a card that doesn't point to the line, or even have even activated the wrong line, because all of this is very odd.
This [censored] has been going on the whole month now, and is starting to get rather tiresome.
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The fact that you still have a working ADSL connection suggests to me that Openreach have been looking at the wrong line the whole time. Other than continuing to chase this with Sky I'm not sure what else you can do, as I don't believe Openreach will speak directly with you as it is Sky who are contracting them for this.
:)
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Just spoke to Sky again. Openreach claim that the appointment was missed so how could an engineer call me and they will have to rebook date.
Either I have vivid imagination or someone in Openreach is lying. Either way this is unacceptable and they show a total lack of accountability and excuse after excuse.
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Only a guess, but this smacks of a possible incorrect Cab routing ??
As the vast majority of ADSL to VDSL upgrades are a simple jumpering task in the Cab, it shouldn't take all those visits.
If the routing the engineers receive for the VDSL ties to be connected to your circuit belong to a different Cab, there are two scenario's .... 1) It goes back to have the order cancelled with good notes about which Cab to raise the VDSL ties against and raise a new order 2) If the incorrectly routed VDSL Cab is connected to the same Head End as the 'Proper to your circuit' VDSL Cab, a co-op call is made to correct the routing and work can be carried out there and then.
This is all assuming that the correct Cab does have VDSL capability and that it has spare capacity.
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According to what I can see according to the BT checker, I am on EAHAS Cabinet 1, which is literally around the corner form me, that would make sense since the whole of my road shows up as being on that cabinet. It is enabled for VDSL and the other cabinets around it are also enabled for VDSL (codelook check)
What hits me is the fact the engineer said he did work yesterday but my broadband remained connected the whole time. There was no loss of sync so either he actually did nothing or he did something to another line, or something that was not connected to my line because there was no drop whatsoever.
Saying that, I never saw a Openreach Engineer in the locality yesterday when WFH (I can virtually see the cabinet) but a friend at another place saw two Openreach engineers at another cabinet not too far away at the time that the engineer called, which woud tie in with the wrong cabinet narrative.
Openreach have now updated Sky and said the appointment was for sure missed and they apologise and have said that no engineer called me and basically accused me of lying and they will update by COB on Friday, but it's yet another delay with no endpoint in sight
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The advise on Thinkbroadband was good advise, to email Clive Selley.
Explain everything and his team will organise someone to come do the job correctly.
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CEO letters are acted upon if certain criteria is met when picked up by the triage teams and this does smack of one of 'them times', as j0hn mentions above.
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Also once sorted I do think this should also qualify for some kind of compensation. If they are saying 4 missed appointments make sure you get the payment for 4 missed appointments at a minimum.
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I've updated the top post as Sky have gone through the notes with me today and clarified some miscommunications from their side as well. They were late placing order which was why 3rd August wasn't met, so that's their fault, not Openreach.
Latest from Openreach following an intervention is that the routing is wrong and they are "working hard" on fixing it whatever that means. Don't hold much hope of it being resolved soon.
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What hits me is the fact the engineer said he did work yesterday but my broadband remained connected the whole time. There was no loss of sync so either he actually did nothing or he did something to another line, or something that was not connected to my line because there was no drop whatsoever.
Not just that, once you are connected to a VDSL port then the E-side is filtered so only voice frequencies can get through, so the ADSL service can no longer function. My line for example is still jumpered to ADSL back at the exchange, they leave it there for quicker migration between services. Fortunate in your case however as if they had removed it from the exchange first, you'd be stuck with nothing.
Sadly, especially if you've never been on VDSL before, its not uncommon for Openreach to have bad records for which line comes into which jumper in the cabinet. I've been through a similar experience and its hugely frustrating.
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It is frustrating and honestly out of all the delays, yesterdays angered me the most. When an engineer phones you up and tells you that the switch has been completed and to contact your provider if there is any issues you expect them to have done the job correctly.
Openreach's latest statement that they are 'working hard' to resolve the issue is meaningless and basically just tells you not to expect anything anytime soon.
The other thing is that when the 17th date was missed, they claim it was because the engineer was not trained to resolve underground cabling fault related to routing so it had to be resolved by someone else and seemingly it was, hence the next activation date being given.
Why then does someone rock up at the cabinet 9 days later and say that there is a routing issue? Couldn't that have been spotted when the fault was looked into initially before the activation date was re-ordered?
And honestly, for a line that has been stable for many many years, with low line noise, getting the highest upload and download sync rates possible on ADSL2+ it's a surprise they keep thinking it has so many 'faults' all of which cause absolutely no issues to the customer.....
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It is frustrating and honestly out of all the delays, yesterdays angered me the most. When an engineer phones you up and tells you that the switch has been completed and to contact your provider if there is any issues you expect them to have done the job correctly.
When I had the issue it ONLY got solved because an engineer turned up at the house, as he hadn't been told what the problem was I was able to explain to him EXACTLY what was going on.
Over the course of a week between me and my ISP we had discovered my line had been disconnected and incorrectly hooked up to someone else on the cabinet. Over the weekend that customers line had been fixed, leaving mine completely disconnected in the cabinet. :'( (found this out as I went with the engineer to the cabinet to see what was going on)
I'd hoped things had improved, as there was clearly some serious communication issues back then where whatever notes the engineers were making were clearly not getting reported to the next engineer who turned up.
A big problem seems to be that an engineer can only do what they are assigned to do, thus why my line was left disconnected as that engineers job was only to fix the other persons line. Kinda bizarre as you'd think it would save huge amounts of time and effort to check if there was another issue on that cabinet and fix it while you're there.
This is why when I got my second line fitted and it was below the handback threshold, I never bothered to chase it up. I'd got visions of them simply breaking my other line.
I absolutely do not blame the engineers for this, its clearly a management issue. Every time I've actually been able to see an engineer face to face, they've been great and the problem has been solved.
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When I had the issue it ONLY got solved because an engineer turned up at the house, as he hadn't been told what the problem was I was able to explain to him EXACTLY what was going on.
Over the course of a week between me and my ISP we had discovered my line had been disconnected and incorrectly hooked up to someone else on the cabinet. Over the weekend that customers line had been fixed, leaving mine completely disconnected in the cabinet. :'( (found this out as I went with the engineer to the cabinet to see what was going on)
I'd hoped things had improved, as there was clearly some serious communication issues back then where whatever notes the engineers were making were clearly not getting reported to the next engineer who turned up.
A big problem seems to be that an engineer can only do what they are assigned to do, thus why my line was left disconnected as that engineers job was only to fix the other persons line. Kinda bizarre as you'd think it would save huge amounts of time and effort to check if there was another issue on that cabinet and fix it while you're there.
This is why when I got my second line fitted and it was below the handback threshold, I never bothered to chase it up. I'd got visions of them simply breaking my other line.
I absolutely do not blame the engineers for this, its clearly a management issue. Every time I've actually been able to see an engineer face to face, they've been great and the problem has been solved.
In my experience there is for sure communication problems.
I've been onto Sky about 10 times in the last few weeks and every time it feels like I'm banging a head against a brick wall and time after time when an engineer goes out it's like they didn't learn anything from the previous visits to help them actually resolve the issue. The fact that the first engineer went out and wasn't trained for underground cabling work didn't help things either no doubt since that required another person to go out and have a look at it.
What you'd ideally like to happen is that these complex cases are assigned to someone with the experience and skills to cover all bases. It's clearly not a straightforward issue so it needs an engineer with the experience, knowledge and skills to actually pinpoint it and do it all in the one call. The whole system of having to raise a fault, and then make another appointment for activation surely cannot help either, if when the fault was fixed, they could activate it there and then it would make a lot more sense.
The other thing is the communication between OR and the providers doesn't seem great. I've had someone who has a contact in Openreach speak to them on my behalf today. What Openreach have said conflicts with the notes they have on the actual case and both their update today via a contact and on the case notes also contradicts what the engineer said to me yesterday and what they said previously.
The fact that OR won't even commit to a timeframe or a rough one for a routing issue suggests to me they aren't really bothered. I will give them until Tuesday and I will have to drop an email to the relevant person as suggested and not accept being fobbed off.
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Fortunately, their complaints team do seem really good and get things sorted if things otherwise seem to have stalled. Its just crazy that you ever need to take it that far.
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Fortunately, their complaints team do seem really good and get things sorted if things otherwise seem to have stalled. Its just crazy that you ever need to take it that far.
We'll see. I've just got a call back from Sky who have said that this issue needs to be closely managed outside of the usual customer care team so it's now going to sit with their 'Customer Priority Team' because of the ongoing issues.
Hopefully that's a good sign since it suggests that I may end up dealing with people who are used to dealing with complex issues rather than just the general customer care team and hopefully they have better access to the right people in Openreach too.
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At least you weren't cut off, with any luck they will avoid that little pitfall.
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So, I've had an update from Sky and once again it's a merry-go-round with Openreach.
Due to an issue with some systems, Openreach had to close the order down so have asked Sky to resubmit the order tonight and then they will shortly afterwards start the planning work for resolving the issue under the new request.
According to Openreach, they cannot start doing the planning work until the new order is in, which just stinks of playing for time. Does anyone else have any experience with this kind of thing?
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Had another round of this madness today, having looped in Openreach complaints.
The first email from High Level Complaints said that Sky need to place an order despite the fact I mentioned in the original email that we've done that several times with no result. The email also did not answer any of the points or questions I made in my email about focusing on solutions rather than semantics. They asked for permission to contact Sky which I gave whilst also stating that we've been through the order -> fail -> order -> fail cycle before and it has not achieved anything.
They have since come back with me and advised that Sky have been told to place another order and again avoided commenting on the actual issues at hand and all the things that I have described on here and in previous email. Last time I spoke to Sky they have stated that it does start to feel like a bit of a vicious circle as they have been told to re-place the order by OR before and it hasn't achieved anything because the underlying issues have not been resolved.
In the original email I sent to OR I stated that I would like someone to take responsibility to resolve the issue of providing me FTTC and to focus on resolving the infrastructure issues that were at hand, none of which appears to have been taken onboard. For all the talk about needing to place orders, not a single word has been mentioned about the actual issue at play. I've followed up with Openreach and told them this, and that continually placing orders is not going to help resolve the matter if the issues that caused the other orders to fail are not resolved and this was the whole reason for contacting them in the first place!
Sky have now called me and said that they cannot place the order because of the fact that the systems they place the order on are not allowing them to do so. I was told that it is because that the systems do not show that Fibre can be provided at the address.
Meanwhile Openreach have come back saying they cannot do any more until the order is placed.
Our executive team will look into this to resolve the problems which have caused the delay with this provision. We’ll own this matter until we get your dad up and running.
Our executive team will keep Sky updated on the progress we’re making. And will also explain where things went wrong.
Sky will stay in touch with your dad, keeping him updated until this is sorted out. It’s right that Sky keep your dad informed of what we’re doing – this is the correct industry process.
Honestly I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall.
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Latest is that now Sky are unable to place an order on Openreach's systems, so I've had to bounce it back to Openreach again.
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The other thing is the communication between OR and the providers doesn't seem great.
A while back OR proposed they should directly contact the end user in the event of issues to improve communication and result in things being resolved faster.
When they proposed the idea to ISPs they objected - the opposition led by Sky and Talktalk i seem to recall.
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Latest is that now Sky are unable to place an order on Openreach's systems, so I've had to bounce it back to Openreach again.
Kinda up to Sky to do that.
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Latest Update from Openreach (AM)
The line is exchange only despite the checker saying otherwise and they need to divert the pair to the cabinet in order to fix the issue which they are willing to do, but can only do that following an order from Sky.
Update from Sky (AM)
They cannot place an order because the Openreach system says that no FTTC is available but are not sure why. A full blown internal investigation reviewing all communications and info has been called for the afternoon by the executive team.
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Evening Update from Sky.
An investigation and an extensive internal meeting has taken place about the situation which reviewed all orders and communication between all parts of Sky and Openreach.
It has been confirmed that Openreach have very recently changed the line status on the live system to Exchange Only and this is a result of a failed network rearrangement which missed out the lines in question years ago which has prevented Sky from placing a new order for the service which resulted in the database being incorrect previously which is why they could place an order. This update has not yet been pushed to the Openreach and BT Wholesale checkers as it was very recent which is why they still show I can get FTTC.
Sky have also stated that the communications from Openreach's high level complaints department have left a lot to be desired and have reported that they have been both evasive and unhelpful and there has been a high level of contradiction from Openreach the whole way through. He also read some of the communications that they had received from Openreach out which showed they were not being very helpful.
The Sky position is currently that they are unable to progress this further until Openreach connect the line to the cabinet and fix their mistakes from all those years ago. Until then they are snookered. He said he's come across this before and there's no way they're going to dig the road up for one person, but since they said they would do it, then I need to make sure I do everything in my power to force them to follow through on that.
The only avenue now is to go back through Openreach high level complaints and since they offered to do the work, force them to do it no matter what it takes, because this is the only way things will progress.
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What a sorry mess, and very confusing at Openreach saying Sky need to place an order when obviously they can't if the system now reports it as an EO line.
Hopefully Openreach complaints will oversee this and get it done. Its absolutely bizarre that their database can say lines are connected to a cabinet when they are not, how does that even happen? And I thought my line being recorded on the wrong jumper ID was bad.
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Its absolutely bizarre that their database can say lines are connected to a cabinet when they are not, how does that even happen?
It's not bizarre at all, when you consider there must be millions of records in that database, data entry errors happen, old records have been digitised. When I mapped our local cabinets I found odd properties supposedly connected to cabinets miles away, which were clearly errors.
OP. Hopefully you're getting somewhere now, albeit slowly, if no progress is made then perhaps a second line is the answer.
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OP. Hopefully you're getting somewhere now, albeit slowly, if no progress is made then perhaps a second line is the answer.
From what I can glean above, no amount of lines ordered will help the OP acquire FTTC ??.
It reads to me (and I've seen it happen a few times myself), is that the whole DP has been accidentally missed, when extending and jointing the D-side cables into the then newly positioned FTTC Cabinet.
To try and elaborate, the planner (using various electronic systems) will have done his bit and captured 'x' amount of DP's worth 'x' amount of potential customers, in his job-pack. He will then locate the best place for the new Cab to be placed, usually within approx 50mtrs of the existing copper Cab.
Once in place, the distribution cable jointers then identify the relevant DP cables that have been planned, and extends them so they go into the new FTTC Cab in order that we can then cross-connect the VDSL service when an order is placed.
As mooted above, the issue that can sometimes happen (albeit rarely), is that a DP gets missed out by accident during the cable-extending task.
There are many cables in these underground Cab boxes, but for the most part it should be easy (ish) to perform the task, as for example ... you may have 5 DP's all worth 20 customers, so this will manifest itself in the underground Cab box as a 100pr cable. This then gets extended into the FTTC Cab and formed out so each DP runs concurrently down the strip. There may be 2 DP's worth 15 & 20 customers on each, this will manifest itself as a 50pr cable in the underground Cab box and the format will be the same as the 100pr.
It's when you get the odd DP worth 5 customers etc that is fed via its own single cable from the underground box, that a mistake may occur.
Not trying to make light of your plight here, just trying to explain the process and how human error can creep in ... and to point out your road will not need digging up, it simply needs your underground cable extending in the underground Cab box and presented into the FTTC Cab.
I hope this makes sense, if not please say and I'll try to put it further into layman's terms. Cheers.
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Hi Blacksheep,
There's another thread on https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/f/4656609-openreach-and-their-excuses-for-provisioning-fttc.html?vc=1 with a lot more info.
It would seem that a lot of lines in his vicinity including his own were EO, at some point recently the network was re-arranged to either go to a new cab, or existing, I think existing as PCP 1 is mentioned. It transpires that his line was the only one missed (which seems unlikely just one would be missed, but possible??), not sure how likely this is but one of his direct neighbours does have FTTC, but could be an a different DP, they don't have poles so cant check.
High level complaints at OR are telling him Sky need to place an order for VDSL they can then proceed to fix the problem once an order is on the system, but Sky can't place an order as the system says no VDSL available, so catch 22. Surely OR need to sort the problem so Sky can place the order?
If the system lets Sky order a new VDSL line, then this may be routed correctly already, OR HLC can be notified of the order once placed, and if it's not routed correctly then an order will exist, that's my laymen's thinking .
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The funny thing is a check has been done on all of my neighbours and they are still all showing as connected to Cabinet 1 on the live system (not the public one) it's just my own line that has changed to exchange only.
I've also had the distances from exchange looked at for the next 5 houses down from mine and there's something weird there, they all show 1km, even next door as part of this semi-detached house, whilst here, on my side of the wall, shows 700m which clearly is not right
You would imagine 300m extra distance for the house next door would probably be explained by a diversion to the cabinet., which would show the distance records are right, if not the cabinet ones, but that itself should be a red flag for Openreach that something isn't right.
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Hi Blacksheep,
There's another thread on https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/f/4656609-openreach-and-their-excuses-for-provisioning-fttc.html?vc=1 with a lot more info.
It would seem that a lot of lines in his vicinity including his own were EO, at some point recently the network was re-arranged to either go to a new cab, or existing, I think existing as PCP 1 is mentioned. It transpires that his line was the only one missed (which seems unlikely just one would be missed, but possible??), not sure how likely this is but one of his direct neighbours does have FTTC, but could be an a different DP, they don't have poles so cant check.
High level complaints at OR are telling him Sky need to place an order for VDSL they can then proceed to fix the problem once an order is on the system, but Sky can't place an order as the system says no VDSL available, so catch 22. Surely OR need to sort the problem so Sky can place the order?
If the system lets Sky order a new VDSL line, then this may be routed correctly already, OR HLC can be notified of the order once placed, and if it's not routed correctly then an order will exist, that's my laymen's thinking .
PCP1 was upgraded in March this year with an extra cabinet so I assume it may have happened then. However that cabinet has been there since 2012 so it has been mooted that this problem with inaccurate records has been there since 2012.
Therefore it's possible that this could have happened when the cabinet was installed in 2012 or it could have been the case when the extra cabinet was added to expand it in March this year, but obviously at one of those points there was a re-arrangement of the copper to connect through the cabinets where mine has been missed.
There's no way of knowing when because I'm currently caring for my father and working from his house following major surgery as he has to have a second op to finish the job which has been delayed by COVID-19 and I have no idea of what the status was before the last couple of months so I can't give that information unfortunately.
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To try and elaborate, the planner (using various electronic systems) will have done his bit and captured 'x' amount of DP's worth 'x' amount of potential customers, in his job-pack. He will then locate the best place for the new Cab to be placed, usually within approx 50mtrs of the existing copper Cab.
Not trying to make light of your plight here, just trying to explain the process and how human error can creep in ... and to point out your road will not need digging up, it simply needs your underground cable extending in the underground Cab box and presented into the FTTC Cab.
Well that shouldn't be too hard, since the boxes are across the road from each other, you can even see where they've dug the road up and ran the cables underground.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0470105,0.9512364,3a,75y,280.59h,74.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHenTahpI0vf16_1jSD6Pzg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
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The funny thing is a check has been done on all of my neighbours and they are still all showing as connected to Cabinet 1 on the live system (not the public one) it's just my own line that has changed to exchange only.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if other lines are incorrect, but just haven't been checked or updated, your has as that's the one that's had the complaint/problems.
Did you ask neighbours if they had Fibre/VDSL/FTTC, I thought you had but skimming through the recent posts can't find it? I use the term fibre incorrectly as that's what VDSL has been marketed as and your neighbours might know it as that.
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I wouldn't be at all surprised if other lines are incorrect, but just haven't been checked or updated, your has as that's the one that's had the complaint/problems.
Did you ask neighbours if they had Fibre/VDSL/FTTC, I thought you had but skimming through the recent posts can't find it? I use the term fibre incorrectly as that's what VDSL has been marketed as and your neighbours might know it as that.
I have had neighbours very close to me say that they have fibre, yes. Now of course they could be mistaken and they actually don't, but having a shielding person in the house, I'm not too fond of going in other peoples houses, especially as someone who works in education myself and the neighbour in question being a key worker.
Thing is though even on the old database, before the correction, there was a disparity of 300m of line length on this property (700m) versus the other side of the semi-detached building that can get fibre (just over 1km) which obviously makes no sense if everything was equal.
That made me curious so I did some maths and route estimations. I come up to close to 1km from house, to cabinet to exchange and I come up with close to 700m for the distance directly to exchange which would explain the disparity between both sides of the building.
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the requirement for sky to submit order i expect is regulatory even though its stupid as it cant be submitted. essentially sky themselves need to escalate within openreach but seemingly seem incapable of doing so.
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the requirement for sky to submit order i expect is regulatory even though its stupid as it cant be submitted. essentially sky themselves need to escalate within openreach but seemingly seem incapable of doing so.
The person who led the investigation from Sky has confirmed that discussions with the executive team at Openreach have taken place but they have been unable to make a breakthrough because of the continued intransigence from Openreach.
When they have enquired about the previous order that was closed and getting it re-opened as they are not able to place a new one, to try and break the deadlock, they have been getting stonewalled with the following response.
The order in question has been closed. If you need anything else, place another order.
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Thats the problem Freedom2, you getting the story from sky, but you cant be sure you given the full story, the solution to this type of mess is to let openreach deal with consumers direct. But of course sky and talktalk wont let it happen and ofcom are pampering to the LLU providers.
I remember when a car crashed into my cabinet, sky gave me a story, I then spoke to openreach and I got the full details of what was happening.
The question is. is there a way to manually submit an order getting around the automatic rejection of it been exchange only, I think there is a way. Maybe Black Sheep can offer some insight on that.
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There is or certainly was a way for ISPs to submit manual orders where they thought the databases were wrong. I imagine that still exists.
Freedom2 - you may have more luck with a different ISP
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Thats the problem Freedom2, you getting the story from sky, but you cant be sure you given the full story, the solution to this type of mess is to let openreach deal with consumers direct. But of course sky and talktalk wont let it happen and ofcom are pampering to the LLU providers.
I am also dealing with Openreach High Level Complaints who have displayed nothing but intransigence.
Openreach HLC have been highly evasive and stonewalling questions with a request for another order. I sent a detailed summary to high level complaints and I got an email back simply asking to place another order, not addressing a single point that people on this thread have raised and I raised myself despite being prompted several times. This is the same kind of attitude apparently Sky have encountered .
Lets remember that Openreach themselves said they were working on correcting the routing but then a short while later inexplicably closed the order (despite indicating they would do the work under that order) and changed the database so a new order could not be placed and then said they couldn't do the work they said they would do under the previous order until a new one was placed.
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There is or certainly was a way for ISPs to submit manual orders where they thought the databases were wrong. I imagine that still exists.
Freedom2 - you may have more luck with a different ISP
The database IS correct now - the live one available to providers says exchange only and all the providers who have updated their checkers in the last few days are showing the line as exchange only, so it's not a database error. I've also had it confirmed that the last database update in the last few days made available to providers changed my record.
The Openreach fibre checker and the BT Wholesale DSL checker show FTTC is possible as do all BT Consumer Group ISPs, but places like TalkTalk etc and the other names are now also agreeing that it's an exchange only line, which was not the case a few days ago before the update.
I work in education and I have a shielding person here, Also with Sky TV in the house and a telephone number that it's not straightforward to port. It is simply not acceptable to deal with any downtime at present, I cannot risk it. In normal times I'd just have agreed to suck up the downtime and use 4G in the meantime and go to AAISP as I'm sure they'd be on the ball, but having to reconfigure the whole setup here and dealing with downtime is not acceptable in these times and would force me back into work several days a week and having to foot the care bill for a person who had major surgery, it's a non-starter right now.
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I am rather confused about your experience with the 'High Level Complaints' team, as I know fine well what a brilliant job they do.
When a HLC is raised, their team contact the operations manager for the area in question and he/she have to nominate the best person for the task .... most engineers are multi-skilled, but some will have greater knowledge in a particular skill-set.
When the engineer receives the task, they will also receive an accompanying e-mail with a full historical breakdown of the issue, including all notes from previous engineers and the ISP.
Once the info has been read, they then have to make contact with the HLC team by way of a phone call to ensure they have understood what the issue is and the result that is expected of them.
At the end of the task, they have to have another phone call with the HLC team who scrutinise any and all test results performed and have an in-depth conversation about the engineers findings. Only when they are happy that the issue has been fully resolved, or we have gone as far as we can within our remit ... will they close the case down.
Having done many of the HLC's myself, I can assure you their department really aren't intransigent. The polar opposite, in fact.
I may get time to have a look-see later on, if you can give me your DP number ??. No other info please, simply your Exchange and DP.
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I sent HLC a detailed email, detailing the complete situation and the only comment they made was really
At the moment, we don’t have an order from Sky to provide a fibre broadband service. We need an order to be placed before we can complete the necessary work.
Every single comment I made about the actual situation was stonewalled with discussion about an order needing to be placed and avoiding entering a discussion on absolutely anything else. A couple more emails went backwards and forwards in the chain and still there was a refusal to engage in the crux of the matter.
The last email I had from them said that they have contacted Sky and Sky would get in contact shortly and that it is industry standard for me to deal with my provider for updates. Sky then said to me that essentially they'd been told the same as me, to place a new order and they tried doing that but were unable to do so. They then went back to Openreach who were said to be intransigent.
I then followed up with HLC on Thursday evening detailing the situation and the fact we are now at an impasse and I haven't heard anything back since.
What's the best way of getting the DP Number? The Openreach checker seemingly doesn't leak it in the headers anymore, only the UPRN, and Nadkey.
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Are you able to provide a DP number ?? Are you fed from a telegraph pole, as there should be identification numbers nailed in place approx 5ft up from the ground ??
If fed underground, then I would need an address to locate the DP number on our prints, as you wont have vision of its identification.
Again, knowing my side of the business, I would be very surprised if HLC were being intransigent. I can not put over strongly enough the emphasis from 'them above' on getting results. I suppose playing the percentages game it can happen, but I fear there may be more to this than we are seeing ??
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It's not fed from telegraph poles, I was previously asked by Sky to check if it was to see if the other properties in the area are going to the same pole etc. Will PM you over some more details shortly.
The strange thing is next door of the other semi-detached house, is apparently 1km from the exchange and all the doors down from that is around the same and I am 700m, which suggests something is not right with records unless that 300m extra is defined by the diversion to the cabinet that mine doesn't have as my walls are not 300m thick!!!
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Spotted you PM after I posted the above. Have sent you a reply. :)
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Two engineers were out to the PCP1 (not fibre) cabinet this morning, had no sync for a while until just now and was about to log a fault through fear they'd ceased the ADSL2+ as it didn't seem to be coming back.
No idea what they were doing as I've had no notification any work was being done but hopefully it's a sign of progress.
Edit: Sync has gone again.
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Perhaps they are re-routing your line, check and see if the sync speed has changed when it comes back up.
When I made the complaint about my brothers fault I was informed of some engineer visits but the fault was fixed by a mysterious engineer that no one was aware of.
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Well sync is back again now, line stats are the same, still none the wiser.
Word is they might be proving the routing again, early this week, which is not the course of action that I was expecting because that happened the last engineer visit where they confirmed what we already knew, it was an exchange only line.
So unless they have done something since then, I fail to see what it will achieve other than telling them what they already knew.
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Well there's been engineers going backwards and forwards since 9.00am and as of 4.00pm once again they're opening the box up down my road for the third time of the day. It seems they are doing something, but I have no idea what as no communication from Openreach to anyone else.
In the last 7 hours I've had about 45 minutes sync on my ADSL2 and a working phone line and the rest of the time no sync and a completely dead phone line. I've had the connection drop out over 30 times from anywhere between a few minutes to over an hour and it's exceptionally frustrating and impossible to work from home.
They haven't told Sky what they are doing and haven't told me despite trying to find out. I'll be glad if they are fixing it, but some communication would be really nice so I could have planned around it with my boss. So in the absence of anything else, Sky have logged a PSTN fault in the hope it might provide some answers.
The saga continues....
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The fact your line is dropping out is probably a good sign that they are trying to probe where it is. I wouldn't expect them to give you a blow by blow of what is going on, I probably would have held off on the PSTN fault as don't want to muddy the waters.
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I didn't want to log the PSTN fault but it was causing me so many issues so I had no other choice - work said I need to log a fault in that case just in case and without any further communication I had no idea what was happening.
Engineer has now come to the door and said they've spent the entire day sorting out the circuits, routing and everything else for that matter and line now goes through the cabinet following a fair bit of work.
Sky are unable to place an order still though, because of the PSTN fault that was logged earlier, so now we have to get that closed down and hopefully a new order can be placed.
I've also heard back from High Level Complaints, who have assigned my case to a new case manager who has apologies for today's issues and has said an update is being issued to Sky.
Lets see how things move...
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Right, PSTN fault has been dealt with.
Sky have confirmed that they still cannot place the order because the database update is now showing FTTP which they do not offer, rather than FTTC being available, which looks like a database update error.
Therefore it's gone back to high level complaints.to look into.
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Sky have just launched FTTP actually but that won't help you as it isn't available at your property.
Like like someone made a mistake updating the records.
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Mad isn't it. Like a comedy of errors, once you get one issue sorted, another raises it's head.
The conversation with Sky was not the best. Rep I spoke to was adamant that despite what I was saying, that OR were never going to do work to convert someone from exchange only for one person, as it was just too much work with digging, opening up various boxes and rewiring etc. When I told her that is exactly what they have done today she didn't believe me!!!
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The Sky rep is very correct, they won't do this normally.
However your line should already have been moved from an EO line to a cabinet.
They often need to install ducting to link the EO lines to the cabinet but this work is already done.
Network rearrangements (moving EO lines to a cabinet) is a very expensive and time consuming task.
It is usually work done via BDUK funding which I would assume is what paid for your original rearrangement that went wrong.
If you weren't meant to be on a cabinet there would have been no hope of them doing what they have done for you today.
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The Sky rep is very correct, they won't do this normally.
However your line should already have been moved from an EO line to a cabinet.
They often need to install ducting to link the EO lines to the cabinet but this work is already done.
Network rearrangements (moving EO lines to a cabinet) is a very expensive and time consuming task.
It is usually work done via BDUK funding which I would assume is what paid for your original rearrangement that went wrong.
If you weren't meant to be on a cabinet there would have been no hope of them doing what they have done for you today.
Indeed, although I had to stress this point several times tonight about why it was done and I still think the rep was sceptical about it as she kept stonewalling me with the fact that it hasn't happened and I must have misunderstood something and nothing is going to change for the foreseeable future and she wants to close the case down as there is nothing new today.
I managed to get her to leave it open for another 24 hours after some tough bargaining. That will give me time to either get Openreach to issue another update to Sky confirming what I am saying and/or getting the database corrected through HLC.
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Put your UPRN into this site, Freedom2 ..... https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL
VDSL shows as available to you now. ;) :)
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Been saying that all the way through, even yesterday and all throughout last week when the live system was showing as Exchange Only. I've been told to disregard what it out of date.
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As mentioned in PM .... what has definitely changed is your routing status on OR's records. This can sometimes have a dwell time before being visible to other users.
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Quick Update.
Openreach HLC have now issued Sky with a comprehensive update outlining the order can be placed and the work that was carried out yesterday, confirming what I said.
Sky have now placed the order. Meanwhile HLC are going to then ensure that the FTTC order is completed once the order has been placed to make sure it happens.
Have to say since I've had my HLC contact change to a different person they've really pushed the boat out and I can see why people say that they get things done, he's been excellent and more than willing to push things along, both on the Openreach side and also on Sky's side.
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Have to say since I've had my HLC contact change to a different person they've really pushed the boat out and I can see why people say that they get things done, he's been excellent and more than willing to push things along, both on the Openreach side and also on Sky's side.
That is what I would have originally expected to happen. :thumbs:
Perhaps the first person, to whom your complaint was assigned, was the "bad egg in the carton" or the "rotten apple in the barrel". :-X
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Great result and certainly more in keeping with the HLC I know and love. ;) :)
As we also know .... there are bags of free spare VDSL ports since the expansion, so the task should progress smoothly from here on in.
There, I've done it now. ;D ;D
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Perhaps I should not mention that the cabinet (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0470141,0.9510769,3a,75y,33.01h,83.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sc4uvZJakAEGCoUl28kwtDA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) based DSLAM is of ECI manufacture . . . :-X
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Great result and certainly more in keeping with the HLC I know and love. ;) :)
As we also know .... there are bags of free spare VDSL ports since the expansion, so the task should progress smoothly from here on in.
There, I've done it now. ;D ;D
You've been a great help so really thanks a bunch for this, seems we're on the home straight now.
Honestly, I'm really surprised with how quickly HLC have worked this week, felt like they'll stop at nothing to fix things up and the new case manager really has took charge of things and took ownership of the situation and ended the 'to and fro culture that's been going on for weeks. Totally confident it will be fine now and he'll step in and deal with any issues if they should come up.
Perhaps I should not mention that the cabinet (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0470141,0.9510769,3a,75y,33.01h,83.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sc4uvZJakAEGCoUl28kwtDA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) based DSLAM is of ECI manufacture . . . :-X
There's a second one there next to it, which was added earlier this year, which I should be on, so hopefully I will bypass what you are implying!!
Just got go live date through of 23rd September as it stands.
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The incremental build is indeed Huwaei. Luck of the draw now whether a spare port becomes available on the ECI, or capacity issues ensure you are allocated a new Huwaei port ?.
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Perhaps I should not mention that the cabinet (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0470141,0.9510769,3a,75y,33.01h,83.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sc4uvZJakAEGCoUl28kwtDA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) based DSLAM is of ECI manufacture . . . :-X
There's a second one there next to it, which was added earlier this year, which I should be on, so hopefully I will bypass what you are implying!!
The incremental build is indeed Huwaei. Luck of the draw now whether a spare port becomes available on the ECI, or capacity issues ensure you are allocated a new Huwaei port ?.
That's good to know. (Unless all the pre-existing users, originally connected via ECI M41, have managed to get themselves transferred to the Huawei MA5616 . . . :P )
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Take it from moi ..... there are plenty of spares on the Huwaei ;)
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That's great news, glad to hear that in the end (although not quite there yet) that HLC got it sorted, perhaps a quick request to the case manager to get you on the Huawei cab might pay off ;)
Mind you, with all the problems you've had, you'd think they connect you ASAP.
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That's great news, glad to hear that in the end (although not quite there yet) that HLC got it sorted, perhaps a quick request to the case manager to get you on the Huawei cab might pay off ;)
Mind you, with all the problems you've had, you'd think they connect you ASAP.
The last I heard from the case manager late afternoon was that Sky are keeping him in the loop so he can get the FTTC sorted once they have raised the new order etc so something along those lines might very well happen.
Notification of the date came after that from Sky.
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Brief Update.
Sky have confirmed that they are liaising with the Director of Service office in Openreach in relation to expediting the migration to FTTC. No dates or anything yet.
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I can only guess, but I would imagine there's quite a lot goes on behind the scenes to bring VDSL to your doorstep ??
All sorts of systems will be at play creating orders, routings, billing, IP addressing, engineering cab work plus probably a hundred other things that we, Joe Public, probably won't ever consider ??.
Ask my missus what goes into making a light work and she'll just think you glue a switch-plate to the wall and voila !!! ;D ;D
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I can only guess, but I would imagine there's quite a lot goes on behind the scenes to bring VDSL to your doorstep ??
I presume most of the required activities would be "button pressing", computer based. The only exception being the jumpering of the tie-pairs at the PCP. :-\
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I presume most of the required activities would be "button pressing", computer based. The only exception being the jumpering of the tie-pairs at the PCP. :-\
Absolutely .... but with each button pressed playing a vital role in the circuits 'make up'. How many buttons ... who knows ?? :-\
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Here's the latest.
Whilst I was at work today, (ironically because I needed to upload huge files that were too slow to upload on ADSL2+) I got a call from Openreach on my mobile to say they are about to switch the line over to FTTC and if everything was okay to do so. Engineer said he'd do it and call me if there was any problems he could see, I had no call so I assumed everything worked correctly.
And it actually did! I'm now sync'd at 78224 downstream and 19999 upstream, which is really excellent. I was expecting less, but no doubt they made sure my line was high quality as possible after all the trouble I've had.
I just want to thank everyone on the forum, especially Black Sheep for your help on this situation, whether it's giving me escalation paths, information that helps me guide people to bark up the right tree as opposed to the wrong one or just suggestions that can help me try and kick people into action. I wouldn't have been able to do it without you guys.
Also thanks to my case manager, SH at Openreach. He has only been on the case for just under a week, but he's handled all communications within Openreach, given Sky a nudge when they need it and, got engineers out all day to fix this on Monday, personally made sure the order went through on Tuesday and kept a close eye on it and got the final bit of work done today. Also to S at Sky, who took over the case earlier this week and has been exceptional and very customer focused.
Have a good weekend all, and keep doing what you are!
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An excellent outcome. Thank you for reporting back with the good news. :)
I think I can say, on behalf of all who have contributed here: "Happy to have helped."
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Great result and thank you for providing the forum with feedback.
As always, a collective effort. :) :)
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Thanks guys! Having just done some work, having the massively increased upload speed makes things so much easier!
Despite the high sync rate and low attenuation only seen speeds of about 49Mbps as highest so far downstream and normally hovering around the 42-43Mbps (ethernet) which is pretty disappointing when you are syncing double that almost. Is that an ISP thing, cabinet/exchange thing, peak time thing, or something else?
I have a guaranteed minimum download speed of 61Mbps, so if it stays like this Sky will be giving me some free months!
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Despite the high sync rate and low attenuation only seen speeds of about 49Mbps as highest so far downstream and normally hovering around the 42-43Mbps (ethernet) which is pretty disappointing when you are syncing double that almost. Is that an ISP thing, cabinet/exchange thing, peak time thing, or something else?
I have a guaranteed minimum download speed of 61Mbps, so if it stays like this Sky will be giving me some free months!
Hmm . . . I'm not too sure what has occurred. I wonder if Sky have had you provisioned on the Openreach 55/10 Mbps product? :-\
Give it two days. For in terms of the Openreach product, the circuit should be operating "wide open" for the first 24 hours from provision then, once one day's worth of circuit statistics have been gathered by the DLM process, it should then auto-configure to what Openreach product the ISP (Sky, in your case) has ordered.
Something about Sky is niggling away at the back of my mind but I can't focus onto it. Perhaps j0hn or A.N.Other will be able to assist?
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It's fine now, pulling 74Mbps as we speak. Must have been congestion I'd imagine.
Now I just have to sort out the poor speeds upstairs with some better booster, but alas that is for another thread!
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It's fine now, pulling 74Mbps as we speak.
Ah, good.
However the circuit does need its complete 24 hours of up-time since being provisioned before the DLM process takes an interest. So do not be concerned if there is just one re-train once 24 hours have elapsed. Think of it as the VDSL2 link "having a cough to clear its throat".
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It's fine now, pulling 74Mbps as we speak. Must have been congestion I'd imagine.
Now I just have to sort out the poor speeds upstairs with some better booster, but alas that is for another thread!
Purely for info .... but the amount of times I've seen the customer plug a wi-fi extender ('booster') in the same room that they struggle to get broadband in, is countless !!
The key is to use your laptop/phone and walk towards the 'weak signal area' in the house, when the signal starts to drop that's where you plug the extender in.
Not for one minute assuming you have done this Freedom2, but thought it worth mentioning for any others looking in. :)
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Great news on finally getting connected :yay: Isn't it impressive seeing how support can really work, if only it was like that all the time, and you didn't have to go through all the pain and hassle previously, and in your case the initial problems with HLC as well.
Now did they put you on the Huawei cabinet? If so you're download speeds should eventually reach maximum given your current sync.
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Looking at the port usage of both vendors, I would say he has indeed been put on Huwaei. :)
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I have the Sky Box and the router near the back of the house downstairs whereas where I am working from is the front of the house upstairs. The previous set-up was to have a booster in the middle of the house on top of a cabinet which was about half way which needs to obviously go through the ceiling which probably loses it a lot of speed.
That was fine on ADSL2+ as it was pulling just as much as standing downstairs next to the router but we've hit a brick wall. The room I'm in does seem to be worst in the house, but moving the booster closer to here just makes the connection to the TV box downstairs a little flaky even if it slightly improves the broadband and my mini box TV drops out now when streaming HD from box downstairs.
I'm going to borrow some powerline adaptors this weekend to see how well they work, since the corner where the desk is in the 'office' seems to be in pretty much the worst space in the whole room for signal so if I can sort that with powerline the rest of things can cope fine as they are.
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I'm going to borrow some powerline adaptors this weekend to see how well they work, since the corner where the desk is in the 'office' seems to be in pretty much the worst space in the whole room for signal so if I can sort that with powerline the rest of things can cope fine as they are.
I'd hold off on the powerline, they can cause interference with VDSL and with it being so early I wouldn't want to risk the line getting banded. At the very least, make sure they have a VDSL mode which is supposed to avoid using the same frequencies.
Is there no possibility of adding a physical ethernet cable from your booster back to the router? Its a hassle, but its the only guaranteed way to get the speed and stability.
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Great news it finally got sorted out. Normal users as has been said wouldnt get this network rearrangement, I think this happened because a planned rearrangement earlier wasnt done properly.
I also agree with Alex on not using powerline networking. I would try to resolve that issue with high end wifi instead. Ethernet of course is always the way to go if possible.
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I'd hold off on the powerline, they can cause interference with VDSL and with it being so early I wouldn't want to risk the line getting banded. At the very least, make sure they have a VDSL mode which is supposed to avoid using the same frequencies.
Is there no possibility of adding a physical ethernet cable from your booster back to the router? Its a hassle, but its the only guaranteed way to get the speed and stability.
No, there's no chance as it would need to go through two walls. I have tried moving the booster around but essentially there are trade offs with doing that. I've been unable to move the booster to a place so far where it gives a reliable Sky Q TV service and also a decent wifi signal to the office area.
As stated previously I am currently at my fathers caring for him whilst he waits for the second part of major surgery delayed by COVID and running any cable in a place where it could be a trip hazard etc is a big no no.
I read about interference from Powerline adapters but it seemed to be pretty much that some people are effected by them and some people are not. Could I potentially sidestep this by moving the booster to a place where it gets a fairly good signal, but still not close to the main router, and plugging powerline into that rather than the router directly, or will that still cause interference?
I've tried the booster in two different spaces today and I've managed to get really really good connection to the mini box and in the hall (about 60-70Mbps) and two bedrooms upstairs but 15Mbps in the office. If I leave it in the current place where it's always been, I get about 30-40Mbps everywhere.
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Great news it finally got sorted out. Normal users as has been said wouldnt get this network rearrangement, I think this happened because a planned rearrangement earlier wasnt done properly.
I also agree with Alex on not using powerline networking. I would try to resolve that issue with high end wifi instead. Ethernet of course is always the way to go if possible.
What do you mean by high end WIfi, any recommendations?
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Well I've tried some higher spec'd TP-Link Powerline adapters and running a massive download in the background and I've not seen any issues thus far in the last half an hour.
Broadband Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed (Kbps) 78224 19999
Line Attenuation (dB) DS1:9.5 DS2:21.3 DS3:31.6 US0:5.4 US1:18.7 US2:25.6
Noise Margin (dB) DS1:6.4 DS2:6.4 DS3:6.5 US0:9.9 US1:10.5 US2:17.5
Line attenuation is exactly the same as what it was previously and I'm seeing speeds of up to 75Mbps now upstairs in the office. I'm going to keep an eye on the line stats for the next couple of hours whilst I am working, to see if there is any drop of sync or degrading, but so far it seems that there is not much of a problem.
Is there anything I should be watching out for that all is not well? I don't have access to error counts on the Sky router, so you know, I can't use them to judge.
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Without stats you'll just have to lookout for slowdown or it re-syncing at a slower rate.
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Yeah, that's all I can do, it's holding very well at the moment.
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What do you mean by high end WIfi, any recommendations?
Something like this https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/bt-mini-whole-home-wi-fi which can be used with any ISP.
That's quite a cheap system but works pretty well by all accounts, BT does do higher spec versions but of course they do get more expensive, and and of course other manufacturers also have mesh systems. I thought Sky had gone over to a mesh system, as in each bit of equipment had its own Wi-Fi AP built and became a mesh.
I cover pretty much the whole of a five bedroom house with a single Edimax Pro WAP1750 located in the loft, there are a couple of rooms which don't get a good signal from that and to cover that area I have a TP Link RE450 hardwired back to my main switch.
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Sky do have a mesh, there is
- Sky Q
- Sky Q Mini
- Sky Hub
- Sky Booster 2
In the house, however the range on some of those devices is not that great to make the most of VDSL2+ speeds. There's for sure some loss between the main hub and the booster and the booster and the Q mini whatever arrangement or location I have with them. Perhaps a second SKy Booster would make a big difference.
The powerline is working really well. The powerline is plugged into the interior wall in the living which the other side of is the left side exterior wall and come to think of it, most of the plug sockets in the house are on that exterior wall, apart from some on the exterior wall at the back of the living room and the bedroom directly above, whilst the BT line comes into the house on an internal wall with the kitchen on the other side, and there are no sockets on the front exterior wall of the house or the semi-detached part of the wall.
Might be how I am avoiding interference that others seem to find chronic as the Openreach socket seems quite well isolated from any electrical sockets.
Good evening speed tonight too, had it download an 80GB file over powerline and it didn't even blink or drop speed, let alone lose sync
(https://www.speedtest.net/result/10072786787.png)
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Some mesh system will use a separate wi-fi network for the back haul, these are generally more expensive, but perform far better. Cheaper ones share the same wi-fi network for the back haul so don't perform as well.
If the powerline adapters are working well, and isn't causing any problems, and you don't have any HAM Radio enthusiasts near by then carry on using them, trouble is I'm not sure you'll know if they are affecting your connection without proper stats until the DLM takes action, but hopefully they will be fine.
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It hasn't lost sync yet (can monitor that through router) and my ping is really low all of the time, much lower than on Wifi. The powerlines are TP-LINK with the VDSL interference reduction mode switched on. I haven't tried it with it switched off, nor do I intend to.
Since I'm only here temporarily to care for my father who doesn't need internet access in the room with a blackspot when I go back to my own place, I'm reluctant to spend too much money on a solution for what will most likely be only for a short period.
First moment I see any problems i'll re-evaluate, I'm checking the router logs quite often, but I'm not seeing any degrading of performance wherever I am in the house since plugging them in, loss of sync, increased latency or lagging that I've heard others complain about with VDSL and powerline.
This morning I got 76Mbps downstream and 19.1Mbps downstream via Sky router via ethernet and 73.5Mbps downstream and 18.9Mbps downstream via powerline. Yes there is a drop off compared to ethernet downstairs in the office, but it's very minor and vastly superior to the jittery bursting mess I had on Wifi.
Nothing like the Virgin Media connection I had in Dublin mind, but that network over there is supreme.
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The main consequence with Powerline adapters can be the increase in FEC (and ES on some lines) that can make DLM put a line on Interleaving, or prevent it removing Interleaving.
In extreme cases they can make the SNRM bounce around and effect sync.
I had Powerline adapters running and they shot my FEC numbers up from circa 5000 per min to 100,000+ per min anytime data was being transferred.
My incoming OpenReach feed ran parallel with some of my electrical wiring to a power socket right next to my master socket.
I moved the power socket about a meter to the left so that my OpenReach wiring never came within a meter of my electrical circuit.
After that I had absolutely zero impact on my xDSL circuit from using Powerline adapters. Not a single FEC increase from using them.
It depends on how your internal OpenReach wiring runs in proximity to your electrical wiring and the type of Powerline adapters used. Some are worse than others.
I have an old set of BT AV500's that never had any impact on the VDSL even prior to the power socket being moved.
It was the much pricier TP-Link kit that caused issues.
The TP-Links don't have the VDSL interference option you mention though.
So you're unlikely to notice if the Powerline adapters are having any impact on your line as most ISP modems don't give that kind of detail (advanced error stats).
It's rare (though can happen) that they directly affect the sync speed or SNRM.
I generally advise against their use when troubleshooting issues just to rule them out but many people find them convenient and have zero issues from using them, myself included in the past.
If they work for you and they are having no impact then why not.
Now I'm on FTTP using Powerline adapters would have no impact on my broadband but they are currently buried at the back of a cupboard somewhere. I'm about to decorate so will run some cat5e around the house instead.
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Latest result
(https://www.speedtest.net/result/10077137993.png)
Having watched my ping and played a bit online earlier the ping is always super low and every speedtest I do i'm getting 7-9ms which seems to suggest that there is no interleaving. The Openreach socket is well away from the plug socket, helped by a long cable on the ethernet to powerline to try and keep as much distance as possible between them.
The only thing I notice is that with powerline is that when you start a speedtest is that generally you see the speed steadily increase as the test goes on. For example on that test above it started about 60Mbps and gradually worked it's way up to 72Mbps, I think it could have got higher if the test went on for a bit longer. I assume it takes the powerline a bit to get going? If I run another speedtest straight off the back of the previous one it's up to speed straight away.
The BT speedtest is totally out of whack for me, it shows me only attaining about 50Mbps which is completely out of whack with what I'm seeing on other speed testers and downloads. It's noticeable that such speedtest is pretty 'bursty' compared to the others, which does suggest interleaving but the pings and other evidence doesn't appear to back this up.
Sync has still held from 4.00pm on Friday.
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Yeah it sounds like you're fine, the BT speedtest is known to be completely unreliable.
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Yeah, I've got excellent speeds where I need them now and decent speeds everywhere else.
However the place with the worst speeds right now happens to be the place where the router itself is which is not what I expected. Speed tests show it bouncing between 35Mbps and 55Mbps even if phone etc is placed right next to the router. Could powerline be causing Wifi interference?
It's clearly not a connection issue as anything connected via ethernet is hitting 72Mbps via powerline and about 75Mbps via direct router connection.
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The strange thing about WiFi is its actually possible to have too strong a signal which causes interference itself. Although just being in the same room wouldn't normally be a problem, right next to the router can be.
Not sure about the powerline interfering, you'd think that would cause issues further away too if it did, but you can't be sure as it may only be tripping up the clients not the router and only strong enough to be a problem when close by RFI is a strange beast..
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The strange thing about WiFi is its actually possible to have too strong a signal which causes interference itself. Although just being in the same room wouldn't normally be a problem, right next to the router can be.
Not sure about the powerline interfering, you'd think that would cause issues further away too if it did, but you can't be sure as it may only be tripping up the clients not the router and only strong enough to be a problem when close by RFI is a strange beast..
Still holding up really well, still been sync'd whole time and getting this via powerline:
(https://www.speedtest.net/result/10095518146.png)
I've reset the router downstairs and Wifi is back to normal again down there and really good speeds. So seems that problem has been resolved. I've also rejigged the boosters and mini boxes to give at least 40Mbps all over the house so that's another issue sorted.
Sky have compensated with approx 3 months of broadband service credit. Everything is working well and couldn't be happier :)
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After 12 days of using the powerline flawlessly with not a single drop in sync and speedtests and insanely low pings showing around 74-76Mbps download, ultra fast downloads and excellent gaming I thought I was home and hosed and everything had settled down nicely.
I was then informed that an issue was noticed and a tweak had been applied to fix it. From what I gather someone made the 'mistake' of not turning on DLM and has now turned it on to ''correct' that mistake, which has effected both my sync speed and pings.
Now DLM is seeing a small amount of interference from the powerlines and seems to have turned on interleaving a couple of nights ago and has developed a nasty habit of busting my sync down by 2Mb progressively every night at about 2.40am and I am guessing this pattern is not going to stop.
I understand that that DLM means well, but it is currently fixing something that isn't broken. There was absolutely no visible performance issues with my line until the DLM was turned on. Is there no way I can force them to turn it back off? I have a massive SNR margin and I've held sync for 12 days without it on, so it's not like I really need it.
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You may not think there's any issues with your circuits performance, but the DLM will be looking at your 'Mean Time Between Errors' and 'Retrains' and adding stability accordingly.
I suppose you do have an argument that 12 days with no DLM was fine by you, but not sure of policy these days .... ?? They may insist it's kept on ??
Others will know, I'm sure.
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You may not think there's any issues with your circuits performance, but the DLM will be looking at your 'Mean Time Between Errors' and 'Retrains' and adding stability accordingly.
I suppose you do have an argument that 12 days with no DLM was fine by you, but not sure of policy these days .... ??
Well my line didn't retrain once in 12 days between being set live and someone turning DLM on. It was stable all day, every day with fast download speeds, no packet loss and ultra low pings. That in my book is excellent performance and is not something that should be disturbed. My line was stable before DLM was turned on, now it's not.
For me as an end user, when I'm assessing performance, I care about sync rate, download and upload speed, packet loss, pings, latency and stability of connection and lack of retrains. I would give my connection post DLM being turned on 11/10 in relation to all of those areas.
So it seems that in order to fix an issue that is so minor that it doesn't even affect performance in a way that is noticeable to a human being, we have to affect the performance of everything that is noticeable to a human being. I guess the DLM software must be a fan of achieving pyrrhic victories, because that is exactly the kind of feat it is achieving on my line.
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So it seems that in order to fix an issue that is so minor that it doesn't even affect performance in a way that is noticeable to a human being, we have to affect the performance of everything that is noticeable to a human being. I guess the DLM software must be a fan of achieving pyrrhic victories, because that is exactly the kind of feat it is achieving on my line.
I don't think many of us will disagree, DLM is a PITA and counter productive at times. Trouble is, that fine line between "stable enough" and "unstable" can't really be determined without DLM and understandably it errs on the side of caution, much to the frustration of us hardcore users who are happy to tweak our line manually and accept the consequences.
Plus as people have pointed out to me in the past, its not all about our lines, its about finding a happy medium where one line isn't dramatically decreasing the performance of several others in the same bundle. In an ideal world we'd have vectoring to take care of that, but for whatever reason this never happened on the main VDSL roll out.
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Last night it didn't resync for the first time in a few nights, so at least the daily decline in sync speeds has been halted so it's not got any worse. Will have to see what the next few days bring.
I understand why DLM works the way it does and reducing sync rates for lines which drop up and often retrain because of the line conditions is completely sensible. However sacrificing low latency, low pings, high throughput, no packet loss, and rock solid stability of sync, to reduce a number hitting an artificial threshold that has no visible effect means that it's certainly has flaws in the way it manages lines.
It makes you think that it was designed by people who cared more about getting perfect numbers than the actual real world performance for the end user. It's the very essence of applying a fix that is completely counterproductive.
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Trouble is you can't see what's going on behind the scenes because you don't have a modem that allows you to use software to see the error rates. There are daily limits for certain errors, once these are exceeded the DLM will take action. On the other hand if it considers your line to be performing well and on a Huawei cabinet them G. INP and dBx will be turned on further improving your lines performance.
Worse case your line could end up banded., which means set at a permanent lower spend, and may never recover. Without software monitoring of stats you won't know if its the power line plugs or something else altogether causing it.
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Line just went down and immediately resync'd at 77073/19999 and pings are back to what they were before DLM was turned on. Wonder if someone has done something?
It's not the 78224 downstream sync that it was originally, but it's not much different.
Will have to keep an eye on the sync over the next few days.
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Line just went down and immediately resync'd at 77073/19999 and pings are back to what they were before DLM was turned on.
I would image that G.Inp is, by now, enabled. So perhaps the above was the DLM process decrementing the target SNRM from 6 to 5 dB.
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The day after my last post it went back up to the previous 78224/19999 but then gradually over the last 3 weeks it started to dip every week to the point where earlier this week it was something around 72000/19999.
Tuesday night it disconnected and reconnected immediately at 79390/19999 so that must have been G.INP going on by the sounds of things, since that sync speed has stuck ever since and noise margin is now 5.4dB where it never moved from 6dB previously.
All of the messing about was worth it in the end, don't know anyone with FTTC with a higher sync speed!
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The day after my last post it went back up to the previous 78224/19999 but then gradually over the last 3 weeks it started to dip every week to the point where earlier this week it was something around 72000/19999.
Tuesday night it disconnected and reconnected immediately at 79390/19999 so that must have been G.INP going on by the sounds of things, since that sync speed has stuck ever since and noise margin is now 5.4dB where it never moved from 6dB previously.
All of the messing about was worth it in the end, don't know anyone with FTTC with a higher sync speed!
Will be interesting to see if DLM tries 4dB to get you up to 79999/19999.
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Will be interesting to see if DLM tries 4dB to get you up to 79999/19999.
So, further re-sync overnight, and that's exactly what happened.
New sync speed
79999/19999
Noise Margin
4.9dB
Could probably go a fair bit higher sync speed if the Openreach product allowed.
Neighbours don't have that kind of sync so probably related to whatever work they did when the re-routed my line as I suspect they wanted to make it A* quality after the issues.
I'm not seeing any real difference between syncing at 73000 and 79999 though in speed test results or real world performance. Can something else, such as an IP Profile, be not taking full advantage of the 79999?
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It could very well be your IP profile didn't change, although it can also be practically impossible to actually measure differences in the real world when its only a Megabit or two as this can fall into the margin of error due to the fact any given speedtest is not necessarily maxing your line anyway.
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You're almost always put on Retx High when the SNRM target is lowered.
This has a lower throughput that Retx Low.
You can trick the DLM in to moving the line to Retx Low to get the throughput back up. This is done by capping the line.
There's a recent thread on this somewhere on the forum.
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You're almost always put on Retx High when the SNRM target is lowered.
This has a lower throughput that Retx Low.
You can trick the DLM in to moving the line to Retx Low to get the throughput back up. This is done by capping the line.
There's a recent thread on this somewhere on the forum.
This is the best I can get on 79999/19999
https://www.speedtest.net/result/10271399758.png
On 78224/19999 I got this
https://www.speedtest.net/result/10095513220.png
So there's very little difference, I've gone back slightly but what is noticeable is that my pings on speedtest.net now always seem to be around the 7/8 ms mark rather than the 9/10ms mark they used to be.
The other thing that's noticeable is that on other speedtests, such as Thinkbroadband, DSLReports, Fast.com etc, I'm seeing speeds of around 65-68Mbps whereas previously they were 71-73Mbps on the lower sync.
It's nothing too drastic of a drop off anyway so I'm not really fussed at the moment, but it would be nice to squeeze a little bit more out of it if possible but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
What causes Retx to be on high and does it go to low if the line is stable enough? Just seems silly to increase sync speed if the actual throughput is going to be less.