Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: noddy on May 29, 2020, 08:07:50 AM
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Hi I know I get increased error rate when the electric fences go on during summer and this year is no exception :( , put I've spotted that when we are using the electric shower the rate drops while it's on ? I've yet to check if it happens if it's the same with other big draws like oven etc any ideas what could be happening ? , it's never done this through winter :( cheers
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It would be worth checking the tightness of all electrical connections in that circuit. Shower switches are notorious for overheating if the connection's not properly tight and if it's left like that it can cook and damage both the switch and the cable.
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Thanks for that :) , I did have a look and check + disconnected that circuit made no difference . I'll keep digging :)
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put I've spotted that when we are using the electric shower the rate drops while it's on ?
You mean that while using the electric shower the speed rate drops? am I right?
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You mean that while using the electric shower the speed rate drops? am I right?
no the error rate drops
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Hi
When you say electric shower, is this a pumped shower?
Regards
Phil
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That is weird, do the electric shower decrease the error rate while on every summer? also you say that electric fences cause increase error rate during summer, so I guess that for some reason the electric shower effect that happens doesn't appear during winter when the certain cause of higher error rate is not persistent (electric fences are not used), not sure if phone lines passing near electric fences and that cause electromagnetic interference on the lines (but in that case it is not reversible easily, may be the Zyxel "b10a"s models which include a line filter can help more) or the fences are affecting the house electricity itself which go through router adapter to inside the router causing interference or the router adapter is the cause of interference since it is probably near the router and increase error rates so something in the electric shower is canceling or decreasing that effect from house electricity while it is on (if all is on the same circuit).
Also do not forget that during summer phone lines affected by heat and that is a reason why errors may increase or even speed decreases especially on longer lines, this is aside from the your query.
It is guessing I am not an electrician may be it is all nonsense at all.
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Hi
When you say electric shower, is this a pumped shower?
Regards
Phil
no just a normal water heating shower
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That is weird, do the electric shower decrease the error rate while on every summer? also you say that electric fences cause increase error rate during summer, so I guess that for some reason the electric shower effect that happens doesn't appear during winter when the certain cause of higher error rate is not persistent (electric fences are not used), not sure if phone lines passing near electric fences and that cause electromagnetic interference on the lines (but in that case it is not reversible easily, may be the Zyxel "b10a"s models which include a line filter can help more) or the fences are affecting the house electricity itself which go through router adapter to inside the router causing interference or the router adapter is the cause of interference since it is probably near the router and increase error rates so something in the electric shower is canceling or decreasing that effect from house electricity while it is on (if all is on the same circuit).
Also do not forget that during summer phone lines affected by heat and that is a reason why errors may increase or even speed decreases especially on longer lines, this is aside from the your query.
It is guessing I am not an electrician may be it is all nonsense at all.
no doesn't sound nonsense to me , during the past winter my hourly ES/Hour rate is around 2 to 3 , now the fence's are on it's around 2500 to 3000 :( all our lines are under ground and many run parallel with fence lines
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parallel with fence lines
Ah, worst direction with when phone lines has to be near electric lines which usually required to be + not = to minimize the interference... but how the electric shower reduce the effect of interference when it is on? it has to be something with the electric feeding which is powering on the router (can not see a relation between the electric shower and the phone line)... and it is not related to the load of the device like other things in the house, it is the electric shower something inside it when it is in use only.
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Ah, worst direction with when phone lines has to be near electric lines which usually required to be + not = to minimize the interference... but how the electric shower reduce the effect of interference when it is on? it has to be something with the electric feeding which is powering on the router (can not see a relation between the electric shower and the phone line)... and it is not related to the load of the device like other things in the house, it is the electric shower something inside it when it is in use only.
The router is run through a UPS and in a very quite ( electrically wise ) spot
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The router is run through a UPS and in a very quite ( electrically wise ) spot
That's even more bizarre. Unless the UPS is somehow kicking in when you operate the shower due to the voltage drop?
I know I've seen mine kick into line conditioning mode when the voltage goes too high.
Have you tried changing the router PSU?
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The router is run through a UPS and in a very quite ( electrically wise ) spot
I meant the outside phone lines running parallel to the fence lines so the effect should be on the line already I guess it will not matter if a UPS is used or not.
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I meant the outside phone lines running parallel to the fence lines so the effect should be on the line already I guess it will not matter if a UPS is used or not.
But that wouldn't explain the shower helping, so could it in fact be coming in via the electricity wiring not the telephone line? The UPS may be unable to filter out the particular harmonics being produced, unless its an online UPS.
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That's even more bizarre. Unless the UPS is somehow kicking in when you operate the shower due to the voltage drop?
I know I've seen mine kick into line conditioning mode when the voltage goes too high.
Have you tried changing the router PSU?
interesting idea
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I meant the outside phone lines running parallel to the fence lines so the effect should be on the line already I guess it will not matter if a UPS is used or not.
going by the clicks and other noises on our phone line I'm sure the interference is through the line
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May be both electric wiring and phone lines affected, and when voltage decreases as Alex suggested the part of the problem fixed temporally by UPS kicking in!! but with noise on the line I guess it is not the only (and not the main) problem on your line and neither the UPS nor the electric shower can do anything regarding it.
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A quick experiment might be to disconnect the UPS from the incoming mains supply and then, whilst the UPS is supporting the modem/router, check the recorded error rates? :-\
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A quick experiment might be to disconnect the UPS from the incoming mains supply and then, whilst the UPS is supporting the modem/router, check the recorded error rates? :-\
brilliant idea took a snap shot 10 minutes at the end UPS running
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SNR
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Even SNRM at your given sync. rate is lower which means the line is quieter, so another quick experiment while the UPS off main supply and feeding the router can you still hear the noises on the phone line?
If it is wireless handset then router wifi may produce some clicking while hearing the dial tone, so make sure the test is done in another room.
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tried that line still sounds the same :(
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But it is nothing to worry about, the issue is electric... do you have any powerline adapters?
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But it is nothing to worry about, the issue is electric... do you have any powerline adapters?
No tried them once years ago and they sent the SNR crazy
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:( Thought that might be the issue...
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so perhaps I should look for something that continually plugged in and running first ?
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It would be probably from the fences as you said that errors in winter way lower than in summer, unless there is something else used during summer in the house.. but you can use an AM radio on 612khz and around follow the picked up noise wave (if any) to the source, unplug it if noise gone then there it is (or one of the sources is gone).
A question that just pumped into my head, do your house has an electric fence? that is sharing power with the house, or where do the fences belong to?
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Hi no we don't have a fence but we are surrounded by them almost all are battery powered
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brilliant idea took a snap shot 10 minutes at the end UPS running
Ah, now that is interesting. So you have shown clear evidence of the interference being carried on the main wiring.
Is your mains supply an underground or an aerial feed? If the latter, is there a near-by pole mounted delta-star transformer? (Three-phase 11 kV to the delta, three-phase 415 V from the star, with the star centre earthed. Thus three single-phase 240 V feeds from each arm of the star and its centre.)
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Ah, now that is interesting. So you have shown clear evidence of the interference being carried on the main wiring.
Is your mains supply an underground or an aerial feed? If the latter, is there a near-by pole mounted delta-star transformer? (Three-phase 11 kV to the delta, three-phase 415 V from the star, with the star centre earthed. Thus three single-phase 240 V feeds from each arm of the star and its centre.)
we do have a pole about 100mtrs away with some type of ( I assume ? ) transformer on it , the feed to our house heads underground from it . I'll get a pic of it
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The pole :)
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Hmm . . . :hmm: I'm not sure about that but it would be worthwhile checking in its vicinity for any radiated interference.
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Hmm . . . :hmm: I'm not sure about that but it would be worthwhile checking in its vicinity for any radiated interference.
according to my little AM radio there's plenty and on the power line coming into the house :( ( it goes up the outside before entering the house )
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would something like a power line conditioner be any use ?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00UB0G4DQ?pf_rd_r=0CTPB2EWW04WVP8KCK2G&pf_rd_p=e632fea2-678f-4848-9a97-bcecda59cb4e
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would something like a power line conditioner be any use ?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00UB0G4DQ?pf_rd_r=0CTPB2EWW04WVP8KCK2G&pf_rd_p=e632fea2-678f-4848-9a97-bcecda59cb4e
Maybe . . .
I would be more inclined to make a request to the relevant electricity distribution company for the gubbins on the pole to be checked for faults.
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I'll give it a go :fingers: cheers
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would something like a power line conditioner be any use ?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00UB0G4DQ?pf_rd_r=0CTPB2EWW04WVP8KCK2G&pf_rd_p=e632fea2-678f-4848-9a97-bcecda59cb4e
I have one of these running most of my AV kit and the plug-only model also elsewhere on the circuit, belt and braces.
I'm not sure they are having any impact at all as they aren't near my air conditioner, but as I think I said before - neither my AC nor fridge kicking in seems to have any impact on my line. Make of that what you will.
A higher end UPS however would generate its own AC directly from the DC voltage, which would be the ultimate line conditioner. But I'd still be tempted to swap out the modems PSU first as it may be its developed a fault and its own basic conditioning is not functioning any more.
We do at least seem to be coming to some conclusion, that there is interference on both the phone line and mains, but its only when both are present that it becomes a major problem.
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I have one of these running most of my AV kit and the plug-only model also elsewhere on the circuit, belt and braces.
I'm not sure they are having any impact at all as they aren't near my air conditioner, but as I think I said before - neither my AC nor fridge kicking in seems to have any impact on my line. Make of that what you will.
A higher end UPS however would generate its own AC directly from the DC voltage, which would be the ultimate line conditioner. But I'd still be tempted to swap out the modems PSU first as it may be its developed a fault and its own basic conditioning is not functioning any more.
We do at least seem to be coming to some conclusion, that there is interference on both the phone line and mains, but its only when both are present that it becomes a major problem.
I've been eliminating the different circuits in the house and running leads to the UPS from other circuits with no change so can't find anything internal , the PSU is certainly worth a try I'm just nervous of dropping any more speed by disconnecting when it's hanging on at a almost usable rate
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I've been eliminating the different circuits in the house and running leads to the UPS from other circuits with no change so can't find anything internal , the PSU is certainly worth a try I'm just nervous of dropping any more speed by disconnecting when it's hanging on at a almost usable rate
I'd get the PSU but only swap it out once you're comfortable enough time has passed to not upset it, or if it drops sync on its own.
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I do have a new spare ready :)
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By the way what make are the plug only conditioners you use ?
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By the way what make are the plug only conditioners you use ?
Tacima, its actually the same one you linked above my AV equipment is plugged into and the same brand but their plug-only (passive) model is currently next to the fused spur to the outdoor socket the lawn mower uses.
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The pole :)
That looks like an 11kV transformer, normal practice for rural properties around here. I must say I'd be surprised if noise picked up on the 11kV side would pass through to your 220V side. For a start it would transformed down even if it did.
By the way looking back at the graphs, the one where you ran on UPS for 10 minutes, the error rate dropped but also the Noise Margin. IE error rate got better, noise margin got worse. That's a bit odd.
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That looks like an 11kV transformer, normal practice for rural properties around here. I must say I'd be surprised if noise picked up on the 11kV side would pass through to your 220V side. For a start it would transformed down even if it did.
By the way looking back at the graphs, the one where you ran on UPS for 10 minutes, the error rate dropped but also the Noise Margin. IE error rate got better, noise margin got worse. That's a bit odd.
Yes it's all a bit odd :( , the error rate seems to be on a steady increase . I know at first it was around 1500 mark it's crept up to 3250 mark now but hanging on :( sure it will crash out sometime soon I'll sit back and watch :no:
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We're affected by an electric fence and get a more or less steady 2800 ES/hour. It doesn't affect throughput in any way that I can detect, except that the ISP has to disable DLM to prevent BT clocking the line down to some punitive banded profile. The fence doesn't affect noise margin either, when the fence is off you see errors drop to zero but margin is unchanged.
I've noticed two things, one is that the interference almost disappears when it's raining, secondly that fixing some bad joints in the fence made some initial improvement.
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We're affected by an electric fence and get a more or less steady 2800 ES/hour. It doesn't affect throughput in any way that I can detect, except that the ISP has to disable DLM to prevent BT clocking the line down to some punitive banded profile. The fence doesn't affect noise margin either, when the fence is off you see errors drop to zero but margin is unchanged.
I've noticed two things, one is that the interference almost disappears when it's raining, secondly that fixing some bad joints in the fence made some initial improvement.
Yes I've had to do a good bit of research on fence set up ;) I did learn that wet ground provides better grounding as most fences earth is inadequate . I've also done the rounds of fencing directly around us improving bad joints ( the farmer has been happy to let me do this ) but it seems different in that it's really constant I'm sure in previous years there's been more fluctuation in the error spikes
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Interesting development , ran dslstats from laptop ( wireless ) this morning ( the P.C it normally runs from not on )stats still the same , so out of interest unplugged the P.C Ethernet cable ( P.C still not on ) still the same , plugged new cable in SNR goes up errors stop the other end still not plugged in yet . So plugged into P.C still no errors , turned on P.C still no errors , stopped dslstats on laptop started it on P.C and 2 hours on still no errors :fingers: Bitswaps dropped way down and snr seems to be fluctuating more but nothing too bad . We will see what happens ;)
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Still behaving its self :fingers: