Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: Geekofbroadband on May 19, 2020, 08:32:17 AM
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I recently checker the BT DSL checker and it said FTTP is now available then checker the BT site and it confirmed it.
I have some questions about it.
1) Our line comes to the house on a telegraph pole, when they install it will they run it along side the copper line, or replace it fully with a fibre one?
2) Right now it seems like only BT are selling it, 500Mbs/73Mbs for £49.99 a month or 910Mbs/110Mbs for £59.99 a month, will Plusnet offer FTTP any time soon?
3) I currently have VDSL with Plusnet, and I'm on an ECI cabinet, I know all the issues everyone has had with ECI /G.INP but with FTTP does that no longer matter, for example the fibre modem they provide, it won't matter about the chipset (Broadcom or infineon) right? because its directly to the exchange, no cabinet involved.
4) If I were to use my own router and plug it into the fibre modem, what are the set up options I should pick. Now with VDSL I would pick PPPoE then put in my username and password. But im not sure for FTTP.
Thanks
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I recently checker the BT DSL checker and it said FTTP is now available then checker the BT site and it confirmed it.
I have some questions about it.
1) Our line comes to the house on a telegraph pole, when they install it will they run it along side the copper line, or replace it fully with a fibre one?
2) Right now it seems like only BT are selling it, 500Mbs/73Mbs for £49.99 a month or 910Mbs/110Mbs for £59.99 a month, will Plusnet offer FTTP any time soon?
3) I currently have VDSL with Plusnet, and I'm on an ECI cabinet, I know all the issues everyone has had with ECI /G.INP but with FTTP does that no longer matter, for example the fibre modem they provide, it won't matter about the chipset (Broadcom or infineon) right? because its directly to the exchange, no cabinet involved.
4) If I were to use my own router and plug it into the fibre modem, what are the set up options I should pick. Now with VDSL I would pick PPPoE then put in my username and password. But im not sure for FTTP.
Thanks
As far as i'm aware FTTP is different as they have to come and install a openreach modem with a fibre input which then gives you ethernet out to any device you plug in e.g. RT-AC68U.
Found a good example of what it may look like on Google Images
(https://tom.goskar.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/IMG_20131015_110246-e1381855579545-500x375.jpg)
As for ISPs other than BT supplying fibre I am unsure, there are a handful of ISPs who do supply FTTP. Zen are one who do I believe.
And as for replacing the copper I am unsure, I don't think they replace it they just disconnect it in favour of fibre but I could be totally wrong in that regard.
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If FTTP were installed now they would replace your copper with a dual fibre/copper cable.
Plusnet don't sell FTTP. No plans to do so at present.
The manufacturer of your FTTC cabinet is irrelevant.
Authentication on a router is the same on FTTC and FTTP with BT.
Same username password, still PPPoE.
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Thanks :D
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How comes its advertised as "910mbs" and not just "1000mbs" or "1gbs" like most fttp services do? I mean I'm not complaining about the speed but its normally 1gbs down and up. Can openreachs fttp only handle so much or could they sell 1000mbs down and up if they wanted
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How comes its advertised as "910mbs" and not just "1000mbs" or "1gbs" like most fttp services do? I mean I'm not complaining about the speed but its normally 1gbs down and up. Can openreachs fttp only handle so much or could they sell 1000mbs down and up if they wanted
Probably to accommodate overheads and so people with crap Realtek Gigabit NICs don't complain that they are only getting 940Mbit?
Its provisioned as Gigabit (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,24479.msg412933.html#msg412933).
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How comes its advertised as "910mbs" and not just "1000mbs" or "1gbs" like most fttp services do?
OFCOM want average speeds advertised instead of selling a package as "up to".
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OFCOM want average speeds advertised instead of selling a package as "up to".
While I understand that, I'm not sure that counts as the average speed of Gigabit is going to be much much lower than 910Mbit because its so hard to actually test it and as FTTP is not an "up to" service provision, does that even apply anyway?
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FTTP is not an "up to" service provision, does that even apply anyway?
The advertising rules aren't just for DSL broadband that varies by distance.
Under the ASA's new rules, broadband providers must give an 'average' speed.
It must be based on the download speed available to at least 50% of customers at peak time (8pm-10pm for residential lines).
Numerical speed claims
Advertisers making a numerical speed claims should be able to demonstrate that that speed is achievable for at least 50% of the consumer base at peak time (defined by Ofcom as between 8 and 10pm). The substantiation required for speed claims must be robust and representative of actual performance.
No idea what the exact methods used to test this are.
I'm not sure that counts as the average speed of Gigabit is going to be much much lower than 910Mbit because its so hard to actually test it
BT name the package full fibre 900 but they are advertising it as 910Mb average download.
They must be pretty confident they are meeting the ASA criteria.
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How comes its advertised as "910mbs" and not just "1000mbs" or "1gbs" like most fttp services do?
Just to add to my earlier comment...
Other FTTP providers have to follow the same rules and don't sell their products as 1Gb or 1000Mb.
Although Vodafone name their full fibre as Gigafast, they sell their 1000Mb package as 900Mb.
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I'd get upgraded asap! Especially being on a ECI cabinet like me.
I'm sure its going to be like night and day when you switch on the FTTP connection.
Let us know how you go on through the ordering, installing, and what you think about it.
I'm always interested reading peoples experiences of FTTP. It's like reading a scifi book ;D
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I'll be sure to share details ;)
Right now we're deciding what to do, currently we're paying Plusnet £27.99 a month with unlimited calls, with BT 910mbs and unlimited calls it comes to £75! and dropping £10 a month for 500mbs isn't worth the speed lose in my opinion, seems like the 500Mbs should have been at least £20 cheaper
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While I understand that, I'm not sure that counts as the average speed of Gigabit is going to be much much lower than 910Mbit because its so hard to actually test it and as FTTP is not an "up to" service provision, does that even apply anyway?
Not hard to test, can be done easily enough from the CPE.
FTTP is still prone to congestion just as everything else that isn't guaranteed is.
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Not hard to test, can be done easily enough from the CPE.
FTTP is still prone to congestion just as everything else that isn't guaranteed is.
But that's what's confusing, as these packages now have a minimum guarantee you'd think that would factor in more strongly. But then we knew the OFCOM ruling was kinda flawed to begin with.
Depending on the uptake of the technology, the average will surely change? I'd think the average today, based on actually being able to max it out, would pretty much be full speed. Calling it 910Mbit just seems like a safety margin to me, not based on real-world testing.
Like I said, even your choice of NIC could drag that speed down as older Realtek Gigabit NICs would fall well short.
I'm already seeing plenty of complaints from people with Gigabit (or higher) on the Linus Tech Tips forum because they don't understand its not intended to be maxed from a single source. I think Ofcom and ISPs worldwide are doing a great disservice to not have guaranteed and maximum speeds stated, as averages were most necessary due to limitations of DSL sync rates rather than the actual network capacity.
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But that's what's confusing, as these packages now have a minimum guarantee you'd think that would factor in more strongly. But then we knew the OFCOM ruling was kinda flawed to begin with.
The minimum guarantee is something additional BT have added themselves, which goes above and beyond even what OpenReach guarantee ISP's.
It's nothing to do with OFCOM.
Most other ISP's don't have such a minimum guarantee and for good reason.
It's considerably above what GPON can deliver if everyone on the PON took a 1Gb service.
The average is just that, an average. It isn't any kind of minimum guarantee.
It doesn't matter if some customers get less at times as long as the average is maintained.
Like I said, even your choice of NIC could drag that speed down as older Realtek Gigabit NICs would fall well short.
Customers hardware limitations (like poor NIC's) are irrelevant.
The ISP can test directly from the CPE.
They aren't guaranteeing any kind of throughput to devices.
I think Ofcom and ISPs worldwide are doing a great disservice to not have guaranteed and maximum speeds stated, as averages were most necessary due to limitations of DSL sync rates rather than the actual network capacity.
You can't expect high throughput guarantees on a residential service.
Look at the pricing of a 100Mb leased line with 1Gb burst.
It's considerably more than these 1Gb residential packages cost.
Some will always complain asking why the minimum guarantees are so low with the usual "I thought full fibre meant full speed all the time" complaints.
Others will complain that they can't ever reach the headline rate, usually due to wireless or hardware limitations.
The vast majority of the internet can't even fill a 1Gb line.
Even when an ISP has enough bandwidth available on their network there will always be someone there to complain about something.
There's no easy fix for advertising these residential packages that will satisfy everyone.
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I'm well aware that Gigabit on GPON basically can only support 2 customers per PON at maximum speed, my point was more that something which is supposed to make things easier for the customer, isn't really. Because an average metric across DOCSIS, ADSL, VDSL, GPON, potentially bottleneck in completely different ways. DSL being a particularly problematic one, due to line length/quality being the biggest limitation.
I'm really just saying what you have, there is no easy fix for advertising. I just think the current system is still rather flawed, what with not even covering upload speeds at all.
Plus as you say, there is huge problem with not explaining to customers that with the faster connections, you simply CAN'T hit the peak speeds in most use cases. Thus why I'm constantly correcting people on forums about the fact not hitting Gigabit on your speedtest doesn't mean a damn thing.
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How does the landline phone work with the latest way BT handle FTTP, I've been looking around online and some people say you plug the phone into the ONT while others have said on here the new line they install is a 2 in 1 fibre/copper line meaning it would have its own socket or use the existing one now?
Then also this new "BT Digital Voice" where you plug the phone into your Smart Hub 2, could this not cause issues down the road if you wanted to use your own router, it would need a phone socket.
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AFAIK BT never did the "plug phone into ONT" route, although personally that's the one I favour. Even if its less flexible, the fact it means VoIP traffic can be completely separated from broadband traffic with corresponding QoS, without the end user having to worry about that on their router, seems wise. Going forward, how will that service even work without broadband if its not driven by the ONT?
Right now though, its the dual fibre and copper line.
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I am sure that the original BT FVA (Fibre Voice Access ) on earlier FTTP provisions did provide the phone service via a socket on the ONT which is why there was the Battery backup unit for the ONT to keep the phone connection working. This has all changed now with BT Digital voice which has the phone connected to the Smarthub, making using a different router difficult.
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I am sure that the original BT FVA (Fibre Voice Access ) on earlier FTTP provisions did provide the phone service via a socket on the ONT which is why there was the Battery backup unit for the ONT to keep the phone connection working. This has all changed now with BT Digital voice which has the phone connected to the Smarthub, making using a different router difficult.
It certainly was the plan, this is even still on the website:
https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/super-fastfibreaccess/fibrevoiceaccess/fibrevoiceaccess.do
Its also how its done in other countries and to me it seems the only logical way going forward for people who want a landline but no broadband. I'm baffled they ditched the BBU as it should at least be an optional extra.
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How does the landline phone work with the latest way BT handle FTTP, I've been looking around online and some people say you plug the phone into the ONT while others have said on here the new line they install is a 2 in 1 fibre/copper line meaning it would have its own socket or use the existing one now?
Then also this new "BT Digital Voice" where you plug the phone into your Smart Hub 2, could this not cause issues down the road if you wanted to use your own router, it would need a phone socket.
Openreach stopped selling FVA (fibre voice access) at the end of March 2020.
This is the phone service connection via the ONT.
BT are the only ISP to ever sell FVA.
Customers on FVA can remain on it but it can no longer be ordered.
The replacement for FVA is Digital Voice which requires the telephone be connected to the BT Hub to work.
If on Digital Voice the only way to make or receive landline calls is to use the BT Smart Hub.
So if you need the landline and you require using your own router then you need to find another ISP.
This is probably how most large ISP's will handle VOIP though.
If you have a copper line the chances are BT will keep that active for voice for now.
Eventually BT will switch all customers to Digital Voice, not just on FTTP but also on ADSL, FTTC and G.Fast.
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So this Digital Voice service is essentially BT's version of VoIP? Thats the impression I get from it.
I think I would rather sign up for a VoIP service as i've heard they tend to be significantly cheaper than actual landline costs.
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So this Digital Voice service is essentially BT's version of VoIP? Thats the impression I get from it.
I think I would rather sign up for a VoIP service as i've heard they tend to be significantly cheaper than actual landline costs.
Yes.
PSTN is being switched off in 2025 so all ISP's will have to switch to VOIP by then.
Some ISP's will sell broadband without a bundled voice service allowing you to use a 3rd party VOIP provider.
BT don't sell broadband without a bundled voice service. They will bundle Digital Voice with their broadband packages but customers will still be able to use a 3rd party VOIP provider instead.
PSTN will close in 2025 but not everyone will have FTTP by then so customers on xDSL will also have to switch to VOIP.
BT have been trialing Digital Voice with FTTC and G.Fast customers and eventually this will be the default for all lines.
Sky currently sell G.Fast with VOIP only, no PSTN (SOGFAST).
The only way to make "landline" calls is via the telephone port (ATA port) on the Sky router.
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I'm just not a fan of VoIP, too much scope for latency. How can it possibly work properly for people on noisy lines with high interleaving?
There's also so much scope for it to go horribly wrong if you are maxing out your broadband and want to make a call.
Its good to have it as an option sure, but I feel some people are going to have a really bad time once its mandatory.
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We have at best 38/5Mbps at work, always interleaved, about 700 IIRC. There's 6 staff with PCs that constantly back up to the cloud, the rest of the staff all have guest WiFi access.
We had loads of issue's when they first setup 3CX, the phone company never implemented QOS. Once that was properly set up call quality vastly improved.
Other companies I deal with are always having problems with VoIP, some clearly because QOS isn't set up.
My biggest annoyance is the way 3CX handles my dect coreless phone, I dial out from the softphone on the PC as it's where all my numbers are stored for really easy access (not in 3CX) but as it transfers the call to the cordless instantly I actually don't get a ringing tone, I get our on hold music until the call is answered! That's the way it's supposed to work apparently, most annoying. I've actually taken to dialling the number from the handset.
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I'm just not a fan of VoIP, too much scope for latency. How can it possibly work properly for people on noisy lines with high interleaving?
Latency seen on interleaved connections shouldn't be an issue or noticeable, certainly no worse than the latency on the average mobile phone call.
There's also so much scope for it to go horribly wrong if you are maxing out your broadband and want to make a call.
This is why the tendency will be to supply VoIP from the router which will be supplied pre-setup with QoS.
Its good to have it as an option sure, but I feel some people are going to have a really bad time once its mandatory.
It will or course become the only option, and yes some people will have a poor experience if their existing copper has issues such as drop outs, but the aim is of course to get many millions onto FTTP and then eventually everyone on FTTP, so the humble landline will be over fibre optic cable from the home and digital all the way and better than it was before.
I suspect many thousands of people who are now working from home have been introduced to VoIP by way of a "works" phone and so a move to a VoIP landline will not seem so strange as it might have been for some.
Of course a lot of people have already ditched a landline line for phone calls, and many more will come 2025.
Regards
Phil
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I just looked up my cousins address in Wythenshawe and noticed he has the top FTTP speed available to him.
He's a business man. But I'd be surprised if he actually realises he has FTTP available. It's left to me to let him know.
There needs to be a lot more promotion of FTTP services in my opinion, even if it's targetted mail at the areas that have become FTTP enabled.
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I'd be surprised if he actually realises he has FTTP available.
Really surprises me when people who use the internet don't follow what ISP's are offering and any upgrades they may be offered. :(
Jeebus I'm checking daily to see any progress or updates. :lol:
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I only checked becauae an openreach engineer told me when he was doing repairs on my line about 4 months ago they are installing fibre to the home, then about 2 weeks ago they were digging up the roads and installing new cables so I checked everyday until it said it was avaliable ;D
But I agree there should be more promotion for something as significant as FTTP, I feel like we would check this sort of thing regularly because we're into it, but the average person wouldn't know unless told
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Hi
The emphasis is on properties passed and not properties connected, so the priority and resources is to keep passing properties. Getting everyone connected is an issue for another time. So currently we see this time as an investment taking place into the network now, rather than a marketing exercise to move people to a different product.
Also think about the monumental effort it is going to take to connect up tens of millions of properties that are going to be passed in the coming years. Something on a similar scale is already taking place and that is replacing meters for smart meters, a very similar task to a FTTP install as it needs an appointment at each property with the home owner home and we know how well that is going!
In many ways connecting each home up to FTTP is actually a lot more complex than replacing everyone's meter. Roads may need closing to unblock ducts or get fibre across a road and it may need two appointments at the property. The cheapest way to achieve it is to take a street or town at a time and target areas to be done on the same day or the same week using a dedicate team with all resources there ready, i.e. do it in bulk rather than encouraging a few here and a few there. So I think it is deliberate they are not really marketing or encouraging take up at this time. They will start marketing it actively town by town when they are ready, and this sort of mass migration over to FTTP is already being tested.
The other thing is people don't tend to pay much more for FTTP, they often stick on slower packages paying the same price, so there is the cost of installing FTTP with no extra income for it. So it is only worth getting people on FTTP en-mass when they are ready to turn off copper town by town/city by city, as their payback then is selling no longer needed land and properties, scrap value on any copper recovered and saving on the maintenance costs.
Regards
Phil