Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: zvirus on May 17, 2020, 10:26:13 AM
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Hi,
Just wonder....
I have had this on VDSL:
>ping bbc.co.uk
Pinging bbc.co.uk [151.101.128.81] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 151.101.128.81: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=58
Reply from 151.101.128.81: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=58
Reply from 151.101.128.81: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=58
Reply from 151.101.128.81: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=58
(https://tombassist.uk/pliki/tt.png)
And now having FTTP:
>ping bbc.co.uk
Pinging bbc.co.uk [151.101.192.81] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 151.101.192.81: bytes=32 time=22ms TTL=60
Reply from 151.101.192.81: bytes=32 time=24ms TTL=60
Reply from 151.101.192.81: bytes=32 time=27ms TTL=60
Reply from 151.101.192.81: bytes=32 time=26ms TTL=60
Is this normal?
Line looks like this:
(https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/quality/share/84d5c9fc87941efa4bb8c9094743546a11ae34fe.png)
What is VERY interesting I think Virgin is using tunneling when their hub set to MODEM mode (No VPN used on my side):
(https://tombassist.uk/pliki/2020-05-17%2010_27_58-CountryTraceRoute%20%20-%20%20halifax-online.co.uk.png)
Hop #2 after my router (192.168.2.1)
Open VPN on my side:
(https://tombassist.uk/pliki/my%20vpn.png)
The lowest observed pings using only Virgin M200:
>ping 1.1.1.1
Pinging 1.1.1.1 with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=20ms TTL=58
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=18ms TTL=58
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=19ms TTL=58
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=17ms TTL=58
In the morning I switched hub to so called "Router Mode" and... all was the same SPEED and LATENCY.
Around 220Mbps upload and 22Mbps download 20ms latency while testing on https://www.speedtest.net/
The good side of the story is when I`m using Open VPN on my side(client) delays go to just 25-30ms
I`m a "bit" surprised regarding delays... I was expecting them at least to be the same... :-[
Cheers!
Tomas
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Is this actually FTTP or Cable? Their website says Fibre then clearly says "DOCSIS 3 Cable" further down the page.
I have to agree that something looks rather off with that second hop, modem/bridge mode should not look like that at all. Even if it WAS tunneled, it should be completely invisible from the router.
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Fibre optic to my property (wall) then coax = DOCSIS 3 Cable
Around 15m Fibre Optic from street cab + 1.5m coax to be precise...
So far I found on various forums 20ms is quite normal... I wont cry having 200Mb Download... but same 10ms will be better than 20ms :)
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It's RFOG (radio frequency over glass).
It's still Virgin DOCSIS from the cabinet.
I'm on a brand new Virgin FTTP rollout and the latency is worse than VDSL2.
I was expecting it to be worse though.
I purchased it for the higher speed.
DOCSIS just has higher latency than VDSL2 in most cases (when pinging the same location).
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THANK You.
Still not bad - only left TalkTalk for decreasing upload speeds...
I wish to have 50 up 50 down broadband (not 200/20) but impossible in country like N. Ireland
In real life 40Mbps download was PLENTY in my household (kids still under 10 yo)
Have to live with 20ms pings... ::)
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No tunnelling. Latency is about normal depending where in the country you are. The standard VM use adds a bit of latency and their core network can go around the houses due to being built around linking cable network locations.
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No tunnelling. ...
So what is IP: 10.25.60.1 Hop #2 ???
TO me looks like LOCAL network IP same as my Open VPN (local) IP: 10.17.232.1 Hop #2
Edit:
Got answer here: https://superuser.com/questions/777866/why-is-tracert-showing-a-private-ip-address-right-after-my-router-even-though-i
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It's RFOG (radio frequency over glass).
It's still Virgin DOCSIS from the cabinet.
I'm on a brand new Virgin FTTP rollout and the latency is worse than VDSL2.
I was expecting it to be worse though.
I purchased it for the higher speed.
DOCSIS just has higher latency than VDSL2 in most cases (when pinging the same location).
That's interesting, I never knew that. I only know one person with Virgin and his latency always seemed to be really good, I guess its just the nature of how his part of the network is laid out?
I presume then that this setup still has the same contention issues as DOCSIS over Coax then? Although I'm honestly not sure how that compares to PONs, I'd imagine DOCSIS 3 makes them much more comparable than in the past where DSL seemed to be less contended. Heck, did VDSL change that?
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So what is IP: 10.25.60.1 Hop #2 ???
TO me looks like LOCAL network IP same as my Open VPN (local) IP: 10.17.232.1 Hop #2
Edit:
Got answer here: https://superuser.com/questions/777866/why-is-tracert-showing-a-private-ip-address-right-after-my-router-even-though-i
The answer is sadly nonsense.
Your modem connects to a 10.x.x.x address that sits on a virtual interface within the CMTS.
Your router, whether incorporated into the modem or your own device with the Hub in modem mode, connects via a public IP address.
Neither of these map to physical ports on the CMTS, people can be on different line cards to you and connect to the same addresses.
There is no IP link between your modem and the line card interface it goes to a virtual interface.
The CMTS responds via the 10.x address the modem talks to. It could respond via a public IP address if the software were configured to do so, just the 10.x address responding is how the software is written to respond.
Your device just sends a packet that will trigger a response from a single hop and that hop is privately addressed.
Modems pull an IP address from the 10.x address pool and use this to talk to the CMTS for their own purposes only. The traffic from devices doesn't go via the 10.x addresses.
Packets both privately and publicly addressed flow between subscribers and CMTS. You can confirm this by tracerouting to the default gateway of your firewall/router - it'll be a x.x.x.1 address and will respond as the same hop as the 10.x address.
I'm not going to do diagrams but as a case in point
2.208.28.86.in-addr.arpa name = cpc114124-lee213-2-0-cust1.7-1.cable.virginm.net
Cust 1 - 1st usable IP address in the scope, so it talks to;
1.208.28.86.in-addr.arpa name = cpc114124-lee213-2-0-gw.7-1.cable.virginm.net
Which is reachable via the public Internet, hop before the cable modems, naturally.
9 leed-core-2a-ae4-0.network.virginmedia.net (82.15.94.254) 20.918 ms 16.871 ms 20.742 ms
10 lee2-cmts-13-tenge413.network.virginmedia.net (62.252.224.110) 17.551 ms 18.795 ms 18.494 ms
11 cpc114124-lee213-2-0-cust1.7-1.cable.virginm.net (86.28.208.2) 24.840 ms 28.203 ms 26.579 ms
9 leed-core-2a-ae4-0.network.virginmedia.net (82.15.94.254) 19.500 ms 16.692 ms 17.638 ms
10 cpc114124-lee213-2-0-gw.7-1.cable.virginm.net (86.28.208.1) 17.459 ms 18.176 ms 18.987 ms
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The answer is sadly nonsense.
Your modem connects to a 10.x.x.x address that sits on a virtual interface within the CMTS.
Your router, whether incorporated into the modem or your own device with the Hub in modem mode, connects via a public IP address.
Neither of these map to physical ports on the CMTS, people can be on different line cards to you and connect to the same addresses.
There is no IP link between your modem and the line card interface it goes to a virtual interface.
The CMTS responds via the 10.x address the modem talks to. It could respond via a public IP address if the software were configured to do so, just the 10.x address responding is how the software is written to respond.
Your device just sends a packet that will trigger a response from a single hop and that hop is privately addressed.
Modems pull an IP address from the 10.x address pool and use this to talk to the CMTS for their own purposes only. The traffic from devices doesn't go via the 10.x addresses.
Packets both privately and publicly addressed flow between subscribers and CMTS. You can confirm this by tracerouting to the default gateway of your firewall/router - it'll be a x.x.x.1 address and will respond as the same hop as the 10.x address.
I'm not going to do diagrams but as a case in point
2.208.28.86.in-addr.arpa name = cpc114124-lee213-2-0-cust1.7-1.cable.virginm.net
Cust 1 - 1st usable IP address in the scope, so it talks to;
1.208.28.86.in-addr.arpa name = cpc114124-lee213-2-0-gw.7-1.cable.virginm.net
Which is reachable via the public Internet, hop before the cable modems, naturally.
9 leed-core-2a-ae4-0.network.virginmedia.net (82.15.94.254) 20.918 ms 16.871 ms 20.742 ms
10 lee2-cmts-13-tenge413.network.virginmedia.net (62.252.224.110) 17.551 ms 18.795 ms 18.494 ms
11 cpc114124-lee213-2-0-cust1.7-1.cable.virginm.net (86.28.208.2) 24.840 ms 28.203 ms 26.579 ms
9 leed-core-2a-ae4-0.network.virginmedia.net (82.15.94.254) 19.500 ms 16.692 ms 17.638 ms
10 cpc114124-lee213-2-0-gw.7-1.cable.virginm.net (86.28.208.1) 17.459 ms 18.176 ms 18.987 ms
I know how to play a double bass and whats Amaj7 or Em7b5 chord and few more... this is beyond my comprehension...
Thanks anyway as some might find it useful! :)
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I know how to play a double bass and whats Amaj7 or Em7b5 chord and few more... this is beyond my comprehension...
Thanks anyway as some might find it useful! :)
I'm very confused too. All I can think is its a misconfiguration/bug, as if that hop is supposed to be invisible it should neither be reducing the TTL nor responding as if its an actual hop.
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Exactly! ;D
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I'm very confused too. All I can think is its a misconfiguration/bug, as if that hop is supposed to be invisible it should neither be reducing the TTL nor responding as if its an actual hop.
When you're talking to a virtual interface rather than a physical one the device can respond to you via whatever address it sees fit to.
It's appropriate for it to be reducing the TTL. It's an IP hop.
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When you're talking to a virtual interface rather than a physical one the device can respond to you via whatever address it sees fit to.
It's appropriate for it to be reducing the TTL. It's an IP hop.
I guess its just hard to wrap your head around when you're not used to that kind of virtual interface.
I'd always figured this part of the network was always seen (or more accurately, not seen) as a bridge. Is there a detailed explanation anywhere of how this is actually functioning to get it straight in my head?
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Think of it as an SVI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch_virtual_interface) with multiple IP addresses. That plus Google for shiny diagrams should help.
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Hi,
Well, looks like I have to report this as this is a matter of Fact.
The delays improved after few days. I do not know why and for HOW LONG but they are great.
>ping 1.1.1.1 -n 10
Pinging 1.1.1.1 with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=16ms TTL=58
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=17ms TTL=58
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=58
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=14ms TTL=58
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=14ms TTL=58
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=14ms TTL=58
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=14ms TTL=58
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=15ms TTL=58
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=15ms TTL=58
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=58
Ping statistics for 1.1.1.1:
Packets: Sent = 10, Received = 10, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 13ms, Maximum = 17ms, Average = 14ms
>ping bbc.co.uk -n 10
Pinging bbc.co.uk [151.101.0.81] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 151.101.0.81: bytes=32 time=18ms TTL=58
Reply from 151.101.0.81: bytes=32 time=17ms TTL=58
Reply from 151.101.0.81: bytes=32 time=14ms TTL=58
Reply from 151.101.0.81: bytes=32 time=14ms TTL=58
Reply from 151.101.0.81: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=58
Reply from 151.101.0.81: bytes=32 time=14ms TTL=58
Reply from 151.101.0.81: bytes=32 time=19ms TTL=58
Reply from 151.101.0.81: bytes=32 time=16ms TTL=58
Reply from 151.101.0.81: bytes=32 time=14ms TTL=58
Reply from 151.101.0.81: bytes=32 time=14ms TTL=58
Ping statistics for 151.101.0.81:
Packets: Sent = 10, Received = 10, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 13ms, Maximum = 19ms, Average = 15ms
(https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/quality/share/84d5c9fc87941efa4bb8c9094743546a11ae34fe.png)
Keep in mind it`s not FTTP (I have found recently) Its hybrid line and it`s trumped out as *FIBRE OPTIC* but shall be called DOCSIS 3.0 Line.... or simple Fibre COAX:
(https://regmedia.co.uk/2014/08/15/cable_network_journey.png)
Grey is coaxial, Yellow is fibre....
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What's not FTTP? Your Virgin connection?
I'm confused. Earlier in the thread you wrote.
Fibre optic to my property (wall) then coax = DOCSIS 3 Cable
Around 15m Fibre Optic from street cab + 1.5m coax to be precise...
That describes a Virgin connection in a new Project Lightning area.
Your diagram is the older Virgin deployment method.
It depends where in the country you are if your Virgin is FTTP or not.
Expansion in older Virgin areas is HFC (Hybrid Fibre Coax) as your diagram shows.
Their rollout to new areas is FTTP.
It's still DOCSIS from the cabinet but they use RFOG (radio frequency over glass) to send the DOCSIS over fibre.
Virgin just rolled out to my area and it isn't as your diagram describes.
I have fibre right to my doorstep.
They fit a box on the wall outside and the fibre is converted back to coax before entering my property.
That way they can use the same TV box and modem/hub in both deployment scenarios.
An FTTP deployment will have a box on the wall outside, then a single piece of coax entering the property to a powered socket, then coax from the powered socket enters the Hub.
Too many people trying to confuse you on the Virgin forums.
No idea how hortonj88 knows you are on FTTP without asking you any questions.
Without you describing your setup or what area you are in they can't tell if you are HFC or FTTP.
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Hi,
After reading this: https://www.cablelabs.com/driving-gigabit-speeds-from-lab-to-consumer?utm_campaign (a bit)
Got some good news for myself from that article:
"...Therefore, HFC and FTTH networks are technologically equivalent as it pertains to latency, and differences between networks are more likely to be driven by factors that are not reliant on the choice of physical medium. Latency parity potential between HFC and FTTH is seen, for example, in the FCC’s Measuring Broadband America program. The top-performing cable and FTTH networks have average round-trip latencies of about 15 milliseconds. ..."
(https://tombassist.uk/pliki/hfc.png)
I think i shall only use term HFC Broadband not FTTP Broadband (I guess)
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...
Their rollout to new areas is FTTP.
It's still DOCSIS from the cabinet but they use RFOG (radio frequency over glass) to send the DOCSIS over fibre.
Virgin just rolled out to my area and it isn't as your diagram describes.
I have fibre right to my doorstep.
They fit a box on the wall outside and the fibre is converted back to coax before entering my property.
....
This is what I HAVE too :)
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This is what I HAVE too :)
Then you are on Virgin FTTP, not Virgin HFC.
It makes no difference to the service and the exact same packages are available on both FTTP and HFC.
Virgin are currently upgrading the entire UK network from DOCSIS 3.0 to DOCSIS 3.1 which increases the top available package from 500Mb to 1Gb.
1Gb is available on both fibre and coax.
I think i shall only use term HFC Broadband not FTTP Broadband (I guess)
That would be incorrect as you aren't part of the HFC (Hybrid Fibre Coax) network.
It is FTTP.
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;) :D :D
Well... took me weeks to find out whats going on... 40Mb was plenty for me 200Mb is overkill. Im more about UPLOAD speeds... = sharing files with family abroad...
Thanks!!!
today's pings:
>ping 1.1.1.1 -n 5
Pinging 1.1.1.1 with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=14ms TTL=58
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=14ms TTL=58
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=14ms TTL=58
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=14ms TTL=58
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=14ms TTL=58
Ping statistics for 1.1.1.1:
Packets: Sent = 5, Received = 5, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 14ms, Maximum = 14ms, Average = 14ms
>ping bbc.co.uk -n 5
Pinging bbc.co.uk [151.101.64.81] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 151.101.64.81: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=58
Reply from 151.101.64.81: bytes=32 time=14ms TTL=58
Reply from 151.101.64.81: bytes=32 time=15ms TTL=58
Reply from 151.101.64.81: bytes=32 time=15ms TTL=58
Reply from 151.101.64.81: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=58
Ping statistics for 151.101.64.81:
Packets: Sent = 5, Received = 5, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 13ms, Maximum = 15ms, Average = 14ms
Perfect! :fingers:
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That would be incorrect as you aren't part of the HFC (Hybrid Fibre Coax) network.
It is FTTP.
It sort of still is hybrid fibre coax so I can see the point they are making, just the coax part is a couple of metres at most. I think Virgin need to modernise their platform and and not just the cable that carries the signal. DOCSIS is a hack to get data and TV over co-ax when cable TV was only ever designed for TV, it seems silly to keep it over fibre.
Given their fibre and co-ax works in exactly the same way, their advertising of FTTP and their Virgin Project Lightning is nothing more than marketing, as it gives no advantages, and is used on new installs likely because it is cheaper to buy fibre cable than it is to buy co-ax and they can use cheaper ducting techniques. Or am I missing something?
Its like Openreach taking FTTP to the CSP outside the house and then converting it to G.Fast so the home user can use their same modem and telephone master socket, thankfully they don't as it is stupid way of introducing real fibre connections to the home.
Regards
Phil
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Its like Openreach taking FTTP to the CSP outside the house and then converting it to G.Fast so the home user can use their same modem and telephone master socket, thankfully they don't as it is stupid way of introducing real fibre connections to the home.
Regards
Phil
Its hard to argue with their cost savings by being able to continue using their existing equipment and wiring in the home.
You also have to consider that with COAX, you can safely unplug it when cleaning the house and moving things to different rooms is much easier if they already have COAX in there, not so with fibre.
I can't see a solution that is better for Cable, having an ethernet port for the cable box and an ethernet port for the Internet would just be more confusing for the end user. Plus feeding TV into other rooms would be much more complicated.