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Chat => Chit Chat => Topic started by: Chrysalis on March 12, 2020, 07:01:21 AM

Title: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on March 12, 2020, 07:01:21 AM
There is at least a few of us on here with underlying health conditions.

I wish everyone the best of luck in getting through the weeks and months ahead.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: roseway on March 12, 2020, 09:29:22 AM
You're absolutely right, Chrys, and I second those best wishes to all.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 12, 2020, 12:59:40 PM
I have underlying health conditions. As long as Mrs Weaver doesn’t catch it from her visitors (she does b&b) then I’m all good, as I never ever see anyone.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Bowdon on March 12, 2020, 09:06:42 PM
I've cancelled a couple of hospital appointments for the next two months.

If anyone uses the home delivery service you need to book your delivery date asap, as it seems everyone as turned in to maniacs on there.

The Asda delivery driver said one person ordered 20 pallets of food the other day, that is equal to the amount of food they deliver to care homes.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 12, 2020, 09:43:20 PM
Don’t believe everything you hear in the news about supermarket delivery slots.   

As a precaution, just in case we end up isolating, I registered with my favourite supermarket today, for the first time.   No problem registering, and to test the system, a delivery already scheduled for Monday morning.   A few slots from tomorrow onwards, and all through next week, Monday simply suits me better

I’m not saying where I live or which shop, but it is a major national chain, within a 100 mile radius of London.  My basket for Monday already includes a large pack of Andrex loo paper, at a big discount of normal price. :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on March 12, 2020, 10:10:21 PM
i can normally order for next day, last week i had 3 slots to pick from for entire week and half of weeks 2 and 3 were gone also, so i did multiple advance orders as far as i could, its like Christmas now
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 12, 2020, 10:21:04 PM
i can normally order for next day, last week i had 3 slots to pick from for entire week and half of weeks 2 and 3 were gone also, so i did multiple advance orders as far as i could, its like Christmas now

Put another way, it sounds like you had a choice of three different slots that same week, and a choice of half of all the slots in the following two weeks.   Doesn’t sound too bad, to me. :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 12, 2020, 10:54:31 PM
I’m not saying where I live or which shop, but it is a major national chain, within a 100 mile radius of London.  My basket for Monday already includes a large pack of Andrex loo paper, at a big discount of normal price. :)

Don't hold your breath, none of the shops do reservations of products so when they turn up the loo paper will probably not be there.

We only use home delivery and its ALWAYS a mess.  You can order something and it be out of stock on the day so they do not deliver it, but you CAN'T order something that is out of stock, even though it might come IN stock before your delivery.  Utterly dumb.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 12, 2020, 11:04:08 PM
Ah, like so many things, too good to be true. :(

My basket for Monday is also well stocked with non-perishable tinned and bottled nourishment, aka beer and wine, fingers crossed that gets through ok. :fingers:
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: renluop on March 12, 2020, 11:27:54 PM
Don't hold your breath, none of the shops do reservations of products so when they turn up the loo paper will probably not be there.

We only use home delivery and its ALWAYS a mess.  You can order something and it be out of stock on the day so they do not deliver it, but you CAN'T order something that is out of stock, even though it might come IN stock before your delivery.  Utterly dumb.
The SM we order from, if you've agreed, will deliver substitutes for the same cost, even if larger or dearer.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 12, 2020, 11:44:13 PM
The SM we order from, if you've agreed, will deliver substitutes for the same cost, even if larger or dearer.

Thanks, I’ll probably put it to the test.   

I say this in jest, but not sure what would be the substitute for Andrex toilet tissue?     Daily Mail, Guardian, or Telegraph, or does the answer differ depending on Tesco/Asda/Waitrose? ::)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: burakkucat on March 13, 2020, 12:58:45 AM
WHO Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19) Situation (https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/685d0ace521648f8a5beeeee1b9125cd) page.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 13, 2020, 01:56:08 AM
The SM we order from, if you've agreed, will deliver substitutes for the same cost, even if larger or dearer.

Substitutes are recommended by computer, often completely bizarre and unrelated to what you ordered.

We no longer ask for substitutes as too many things react with my mums medication so she has to be extremely specific.

For example all the sugar free drinks have a chemical in them that is iffy. (likely for everyone as its not been well tested, but worse with her medication)  Its pretty much original Pepsi or nothing, soft drinks wise, which can be problematic with takeaways when they are out of stock so try to sub it for something sugar free.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: banger on March 13, 2020, 03:40:58 AM
WHO Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19) Situation (https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/685d0ace521648f8a5beeeee1b9125cd) page.

Scary stuff.  :'(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 13, 2020, 08:55:01 AM
Substitutes are recommended by computer, often completely bizarre and unrelated to what you ordered.


Sounds like home delivery may not be as useful as I hoped.   I’ve never used it, but did persuade my Dad to sign up to Tesco in the last year before he passed away.  It was a godsend as he was getting quite poorly.

My other worry is when choosing, say, a joint of beef, or a nice cauliflower we tend to be a bit picky and hard to please?   But I guess I can learn to compromise for a few weeks if that’s what it takes.


WHO Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19) Situation (https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/685d0ace521648f8a5beeeee1b9125cd) page.


Interesting site, but quite heavy on graphics and a bit slow to render - is that just my iPad?

My other favourite source of data is...

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

I’d never heard of them til last week but as far as I can see the data appears accurate and is concisely presented.



Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: renluop on March 13, 2020, 09:11:49 AM
Thanks, I’ll probably put it to the test.   

I say this in jest, but not sure what would be the substitute for Andrex toilet tissue?     Daily Mail, Guardian, or Telegraph, or does the answer differ depending on Tesco/Asda/Waitrose? ::)
I'd assume it would be another brand, or sufficient free copies of newspapers for you to cut to size.
You'd be getting paper, and and occupational therapy, to boot. :D
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 13, 2020, 09:13:19 AM
 :D
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: renluop on March 13, 2020, 09:19:19 AM
As to substitutes, it may depend on the SM's policies, for one, whether localised or centralised(?)
AFAICR, we've never had problems, though we very rarely would order meat joints or vegs.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Bowdon on March 13, 2020, 11:03:22 AM
WHO Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19) Situation (https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/685d0ace521648f8a5beeeee1b9125cd) page.

Thanks for the link. I have a friend who is following all the stats pages. I'll show her this one.

Substitutions in an order can be a catch-22 situation. If you don't allow for substitutions then you don't get anything. If you do, then at least you get something. Though I think it depends which items you're prepared to substitute. I look for gluten free stuff, so sending non-gluten free isn't much good to me.

I was looking around twitter before and some guy went to the store (in the US) at 2am and one side of the shelves was empty, it was the shelves for toilet paper, while on the other shelve it was full of food. So people are buying up toilet paper and forgetting the food. I think when this is over I'd like to find out who started the fear of being without toilet paper.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 13, 2020, 11:28:42 AM
My Wife and daughters are off to the theatre in London tomorrow, travelling by train. The daughters booked late last year, the wife only booked yesterday  :no: I'm glad I'm not going not that it will make any difference, as they may well catch it and infect me anyway  :no:

I'm early fifties and luckily don't have any medical problems apart from being very unfit, the wife on the other hand seems to catch everything going and works in a hospital.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 13, 2020, 04:54:00 PM
My estimation of home delivery is sinking fast.

Yesterday, I’d picked a slot and started to fill my basket.   I guess there must be a timeout as today, my slot has evaporated along with my basket.    And worse, the Andrex loo paper that I was so proud of finding... is now listed as ‘out of stock’. :D

I’ve got another slot, next Wednesday, and will  give it a try for validation purposes.  But hard to imagine this is going to be the lifeline we might need if things go badly with the virus. ???
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 13, 2020, 05:04:38 PM
Mum orders a lot of stuff from Amazon Pantry too.  You basically have to use every avenue possible to rely on deliveries only, it kinda sucks.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 13, 2020, 05:28:30 PM
Maybe I’ll give Amazon a try then.

Tesco was great for Dad after he lost my Mum.   He wasn’t very confident to begin with so I’d spend an hour on the phone with him, both of us logged to his account and both of us updating/checking the basket at the same time.   I was surprised that worked, but it did.   After a few weeks of course he’d mastered it without needing help.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: kitz on March 13, 2020, 10:18:08 PM
I have an annual anytime pass because I really do struggle these days.  Like Chrys I can usually place a next day order,  I've even placed orders just  minutes before midnight and can usually get a time slot to within about an hour either way of my preferred choice.
   
I was caught out unexpected for this weeks shopping  because there weren't any and a slot is not available until nearly a week in advance and there were only 3 time slots for that day.   Compared to a normal choices of about every 30mins from ~ 7am till 10/11pm that is a huge decrease.   There wasn't even any click and collect appts until Monday (those you can usually book same day).    Thus I haven't had a shop this week at all.   I was hoping to get out today, but that wasn't to be and I couldn't.  Hoping tomorrow I can at least get to the corner shop but if I can't I cant and I take each day as it comes.

I've no doubt there are many more like me who do rely on deliveries but find themselves not being able to get one this week. Thus also the ones who are beginning to run low on loo roll and don't have a years supply.   I'm not panicking yet,  I've no fresh milk or bread but I do have enough coffee pods and bottled water to last me until next week and I have frozen garlic breads in the freezer so I wont starve and I have a caffeine supply.   I'm not totally housebound every day and am able to get out some days if I can manage on just MorphineCR, but I'm not able to do big trolley load nor able to stock up...  which is why I have a pass in the first place.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: kitz on March 13, 2020, 10:19:50 PM
Quote
The SM we order from, if you've agreed, will deliver substitutes for the same cost, even if larger or dearer.

If that's the same one I use (asda) then that used to be the case and sometimes I got some fantastic bargains.   However for the past year all substitutions are computer generated and not chosen by the 'picker' as used to be the case.
More often than not the subs are ridiculous or they don't bother.   

The most annoying was my Xmas order I'd placed over a month in advance and in the morning of the expected delivery I got email confirmation that there was no turkey or sub.   How can they not reserve something like turkeys for the designated xmas slots. 
I literally dragged myself into the store that day looking a right state - I had to drive there so no Oramorph and it was very obvious I was in pain and struggling to walk only with the aid of a trolley as support.     There on the shelves were plenty of fresh turkey crowns - dozens of them.   I managed to literally grab hold of one of the manager who was walking past who explained they couldn't sub because it was less weight and dearer than the product I'd originally ordered.   

Guess who did eventually get a turkey crown and for free as a gesture of goodwill.  It was a nice co-incidence that my pass would have expired on 15th Jan and I could use the threat of buying an annual anytime pass elsewhere.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 13, 2020, 11:37:12 PM
I don’t want to start a panic but yesterday, when visiting Tesco, I found myself speculating on what was worth stocking up, apart from beer and wine...?

One was part-baked bread.   It’s pretty horrible, but edible for a month or two.  The shelves were full, so I bought two packs.   Butter lasts well too, so I now have plenty.

Another was Fray Bentos tinned pies, a relic of my childhood.   Embarrassing as it is to say so, I actually quite like them.   Nobody else seemed inclined though, so I bought several tins.

Dried pasta was restricted to 5 packs per customer.   I didn’t need 5, but bought two.  I also bought a big bag of rice, one of red lentils and one of chick peas, that nobody else seemed to be interested in.

Several of jars of pasta sauce and Indian cooking sauce too.  I usually make my own from raw materials, but just in case I’m sick and not inclined, they’re a good fallback.

Plus veg... eg carrots, cabbage and swede keep a long time.

 :)

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on March 14, 2020, 03:44:03 AM
Put another way, it sounds like you had a choice of three different slots that same week, and a choice of half of all the slots in the following two weeks.   Doesn’t sound too bad, to me. :)

Out of 120+ slots 3 were available for entire week.
Normally half of slots are available next day and rest for other 6 days.

Last night I ordered some extra tins.

Morrison's, 6 tins in "total" for entire order limit with about 60-70% of options out of stock.
Tesco entire tinned veg out of stock.
Ocado much higher limits, but still half of products out of stock, ordered from here.  The delivery date the earliest available is 29 march.

That's way different to normal.

Ocado as expected is handling this better as they actually deliver from distribution centres instead of supermarkets.

Also ocada has 1 soap/handwash per order in total not one of each type, morrisons 2.

My local coop which was 3 doors away, closed mid february, talk about awful timing.

The limits for those going in store seem much more relaxed than online which I think is discriminatory against the disabled.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on March 14, 2020, 03:59:47 AM
If that's the same one I use (asda) then that used to be the case and sometimes I got some fantastic bargains.   However for the past year all substitutions are computer generated and not chosen by the 'picker' as used to be the case.
More often than not the subs are ridiculous or they don't bother.   


What I have been told is now there is algorithms in play, if stock is "low" then there is a likelihood a product will be "unavailable" on the website as that reduces the risk of the store swapping in a more expensive sub.    It also wouldnt surprise me with this new computer auto sub you mentioned that if the substitute is priced a lot higher it then decides to a "no sub sorry, out of stock" instead.  Sub freebies have dried up hugely for me in the past 1-2 years, which has coincided with larger stock issues.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 14, 2020, 08:32:18 AM
Yes agreed, despite my initial enthusiasm, home delivery does not look anything like as good as I hoped.

One other aspect that concerns me is Tesco in-store last week, on a weekday morning, was nearly as busy as a Christmas eve.   When you ask yourself who these people might be, it seems more than possible that they include some who might be feeling a tiny bit icky, preparing to lie low for a week or two... so maybe worth persevering with deliveries as long as possible.

Only positive comment was that all these crowds in Tesco were being courteous, polite and friendly.  Everybody sharing a joke and a smile at every opportunity.   No signs yet, that the population are about to start eating one another.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: renluop on March 14, 2020, 08:51:18 AM
......   No signs yet, that the population are about to start eating one another.
Because no one knows, whether the virus can be spread by ingestion! ;D
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on March 14, 2020, 09:45:45 AM
Thats good news on your observation 7LM.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: tickmike on March 14, 2020, 02:02:49 PM
Our daughter bought her Mum and herself tickets for Wembly at the end on the month, well that's off  >:(
I think I am ok with the hotel as I can cancel it, but the 1st class train tickets I have bought  :( 

Same for May we booked a Hotel in Gibraltar for a week and again I think I can cancel the hotel but I have booked and paid the flights with BA in Business class also a car hire with them (for use mainly in south Spain  :o ) .
Not sure what we are doing about that yet.

We have also booked a house in Pitlochory Scotland for September for a week with that paid (none refundable)  >:(
Trains and plane and car hire paid for  :o

I have never known a Virus spread so fast.

My wife has just gone shopping and is getting a bit more stock if we are grounded as we do not to keep much in but do two shops a week.

Bit of a shock reading what you put about SM delivery as we thought we could rely on that if we self isolate.

No Toilet rolls OMG what are we going to do people are saying, (it's not that type of Virus !).

I was born in a Terraced house in Derby and I remember my Dad used to cut old news paper squares up with a hole in one corner with a piece of string through to hang on a nail for use in the Out Side toilet  :D.



I suppose on the bright side it's my Birthday today and my wife and I are going to a small local pub for a meal tonight.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: renluop on March 14, 2020, 04:55:33 PM
tickmike. Depends what type and where bought. For starters https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46594.aspx
It might help.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 14, 2020, 05:14:39 PM
Tickmike, if your September holiday is affected, we really will  be in the brown stuff.

I'm glad to say I have nothing booked, not a thing, the wife and daughters are at the Adelphi Theatre today, and I think she has another show booked in a few weeks time in Canterbury I think, but at least no holidays.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: tiffy on March 14, 2020, 05:33:04 PM
Quote
Tickmike, if your September holiday is affected, we really will  be in the brown stuff.

And may well need the extra loo rolls that everyone appears to be hoarding  :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 14, 2020, 06:26:46 PM
I actually fail to see how things can possibly be any better by September, why should they?   It’s not going to go away that soon, and probably not until vaccines are available.

Personally we’ve actually got one thing for which to be grateful.   Every four years, the last week in March, we’d normally attend a conference in the USA involving several hundred people from all over the world.    By a rare stroke of luck we decided, some months ago and before the virus was known, to give it a miss this year. :(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 14, 2020, 09:16:36 PM
I'm well aware it won't go away by them, but hopefully things will settle down and we'd be over the worst of it, or at least better at coping with it . Seems to be what the Government is publicly hoping with there smoothing the hump of out.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 14, 2020, 10:33:34 PM
Time will tell, Ronski.

I’m now retired but other half still works.   They had a ‘trial’ day last week where everybody worked from home and apparently it went ok, so they’ve all just this evening been told to work from home for two weeks.   I welcome the news, but question whether two weeks is enough?

Personally I still enjoy getting out to do the shopping twice a week, I’d go stir crazy without it, and would like to continue.   But I also had a naughty habit of doing the shopping early evening when the sun was already over the yardarm as they say, then sneaking in a quick pint in the pub before heading home.   I haven’t done that for the past couple of weeks, and have resigned myself to the idea that these days are gone, for many months to come. :'(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on March 15, 2020, 03:59:59 AM
Two weeks ago I was taking this serious, much more serious than most people, but my mind was almost convinced that we would eventually beat it, it would be gone, probably within a 4-6 month period.

But looking at how the spanish flu went down, and that most viruses become seasonal, year on year events.  Its kind of hitting home that we may have to deal with this for the rest of our lives, it can potentially change a lot of our way of life for the years to come.  Now it wont always be as grim as it is now, as eventually we will have vaccines and possibly even some type of medicine for those effected, and eventually the public will learn to live with it so things like sporting events would resume.  This will probably be a game changer for the NHS in its long term funding and management.

Looking at countries like china, they have effectively got their rate's down to how the spanish flu was after its first wave, at a continuous very low level, but not eradicated.

There is still absolutely no evidence that letting this run will will have it peak before it infects most of the population, if as predicted that plays out, our peak is going to be further than the government has predicted.  The virus will keep spreading until either (a) it runs out of people to spread to which basically almost everyone is infected, or (b) we stop it via vaccine, or (c) it mutates into a dormant form, finally (d) we almost stop it via china lockdown procedures, but of course this wouldnt kill it, it would just stall it.

With an aim of getting 40+ million infected I would be very surprised if we in any kind of normality in the upcoming months.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 15, 2020, 07:35:57 AM
I had a couple of events planned for May, even if they go ahead I don't think I can risk it seeing as I have Asthma and I've been worried about getting Pneumonia even from seasonal Flu as it does like to drop to my chest.  My mum is Diabetic and Asthmatic, so even if I were fine its a huge risk I'd pass it on to her.

I also have an event coming up in October, not so sure about that one.  I can hope for a vaccine by then, but its probably rather optimistic.

I barely leave the house as it is, but its amazing how much more oppressive it is when the danger in doing so is ramped up.

Its baffling how many people are acting like this isn't a big deal.  They seem to be blissfully unaware of just how much more contagious this is than the usual viruses we deal with and how much more serious it is for people with compromised immune systems.

Doing all I can, installed Folding at Home on my server and desktop, giving my GPU a good workout.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 15, 2020, 09:11:43 AM
I can't work from home, I can do some paperwork/admin on the computer at home, but my job is very hands on, I can't run a workshop and fix trucks at home.  Most of the companies business is removals, that again is a hands on job. My wife also works at a hospital so again can't work from home.

I've no idea what's going on at work as I'm in the middle of two weeks off using up holiday, and they've managed to block my remote desktop connection so I now can't log in and check emails  :lol:
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 15, 2020, 09:36:46 AM
Seems they are now saying over 70s will be asked to quarantine themselves for a lengthy period.

Four months quarantine is being touted but I can’t find any evidence that the actual duration came from any authoritative source, maybe just a journalistic rumour that is drifting into ‘fact’.

I do find myself trusting the government on this, and that they are doing the best they can, based on scientific evidence and advice, given that we are where we are in terms of resources.   They’ve no motivation to do otherwise.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: d2d4j on March 15, 2020, 09:41:06 AM
Hi

@ronski - can you not vpn into router to resolve connection block unless it’s on the terminal where your blocked

I think this is been blown out of all proportion and I had a terrible chest over Christmas which makes me think perhaps it was this.

It’s based on the fact that there will have been visitors to the uk before the virus was known and therefore could have started in uk before Christmas

We have not stopped doing the things we would normally do (including going out) but dismayed that people are hording (very selfish). However, again I think people saw the shelf’s empty so they in turn bought as much as they could, and do it makes it worse.

I also do not understand the toilet roll shortage - I thought this was made in uk and they must have stocks (manufacturers and supermarkets)

To the people trying online shopping - do you wipe your food/groceries and wash your hands - it may have been picked/packed by an infected person

I am sorry for long post, I try to keep away from posting on these type of threads but I cannot understand why fear is been propagated

Many thanks

John
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: broadstairs on March 15, 2020, 09:44:10 AM
These reports that over 70's may be asked to self isolate for four months even if they do not have any issues, yes 4 months! This is not just those who have underlying health issues but everyone!  This is ludicrous if it actually happens. The virus is not air borne so I cannot see what good it will do, older folks need exercise and keeping them effectively locked up for months will do no good for the physical or mental health. I do wonder whether this has been leaked to 'test the waters' prior to any real decision. Seems like Robert Peston started this and he is not known for fake news.

I see no problem in going out for a walk in the fresh air if you are not showing any symptoms, also being careful to avoid crowds if possible and taking sensible precautions like wearing disposable gloves or wiping the handle with a disinfectant wipe when shopping in supermarkets for example as you do not know who has used a trolley or basket before you. One thing I think shops have to clamp down on is people putting children  in the trolley where food is placed which is plain stupid, something I see a lot, who knows what they have trodden in!

Stuart
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: roseway on March 15, 2020, 10:03:20 AM
I'll be 75 in a couple of weeks, and I'm certainly not going to stop going out for fresh air and exercise. I live in a village, and it's easy to avoid getting too close to other people (but close enough to exchange a few friendly words). I'd quickly go mad if I was forced to stay indoors.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: broadstairs on March 15, 2020, 10:05:54 AM
I'll be 75 in a couple of weeks, and I'm certainly not going to stop going out for fresh air and exercise. I live in a village, and it's easy to avoid getting too close to other people (but close enough to exchange a few friendly words). I'd quickly go mad if I was forced to stay indoors.

My wife and I (both 72) will do the same.

Stuart
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 15, 2020, 10:12:28 AM
A thought.   If the supermarkets wanted to do something constructive, that would reduce unnecessary consumption, they could maybe suspend all multi-buy offers?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: broadstairs on March 15, 2020, 01:56:04 PM
According to Matt Hancock on the news the 70+ staying at home will come in at some time. Good luck with that, just don't see how it could be enforced.

Stuart
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Bowdon on March 15, 2020, 01:56:53 PM
Just had my Ocado delivery today.

They have a new procedure in place so they will knock on the door, greet you and put your order on the door step. They now aren't allowed to come in your house or hand you directly any bags. If you have any substitutions they now won't take them back, and if you have any spare plastic bags (that Ocado used to give you 5p per bag handed back to them) won't now be accepted.

I wonder how long the panic buying will happen? I'm hoping people will get sick of themselves, or finally realise there is no need to panic. If people are self isolating I'm sure there is an arrangement to keep people in food (and toilet paper).
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 15, 2020, 02:25:50 PM
I saw last night that ocado are not taking on new customers.

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 15, 2020, 02:29:41 PM
According to Matt Hancock on the news the 70+ staying at home will come in at some time. Good luck with that, just don't see how it could be enforced.

Stuart

That's where China has the advantage, don't do as they say there and they just cart you off kicking and screaming.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 15, 2020, 02:48:43 PM
I saw last night that ocado are not taking on new customers.

Yep, I just discovered that.  I was able to register but the subsequent email, rather than “welcome to Ocado”, was essentially “hard luck”.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: vic0239 on March 15, 2020, 03:22:58 PM
According to Matt Hancock on the news the 70+ staying at home will come in at some time. Good luck with that, just don't see how it could be enforced.
Here in Scotland we will just have to "Reduce social contact" according to the chief medical officer. So no bingo or visits to the pub, but visits from family and friends are ok.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: 4candles on March 15, 2020, 04:46:40 PM
Amidst all the gloom, I was touched by this note which appeared on the doormat this morning -

Dear Neighbour, We live at xx xxxx xxxx and would be very happy to help anyone in xxxx xxxx or xxxx xxxx who needs assistance in the next few weeks, if you are poorly and / or unable to go out. Please do give us a ring if you need shopping or something similar that we could do for you. If we become ill ourselves, we would of course let you know. Best wishes,

They're a relatively younger couple in a road of mainly oldies.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: broadstairs on March 15, 2020, 04:50:34 PM
We registered with Morrisons and did an order only to find the first delivery slot was 31st March so binned it! Went out locally and got all we wanted apart from loo rolls and tissues.

Stuart
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 15, 2020, 05:56:38 PM
Amidst all the gloom, I was touched by this note which appeared on the doormat this morning -

Yep I saw that on BBC, volunteers all over are handing them out.

Another story I liked....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-51895386/coronavirus-spain-and-italy-applaud-health-workers

...if somebody in the UK organised same I think I’d want to participate.  We live on a quiet rural road with no immediate neighbours so chances are nobody would see us, and anybody who did see us would think we were nuts, but I’d gladly go down and lean over the fence to applaud at the right time.    :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Westie on March 15, 2020, 06:14:47 PM
Did anyone catch the repeat of "Contagion: The BBC Four Pandemic" broadcast at 02:00 the other night? Apparently it was first shown in March 2018, and given the current situation was eerily prescient.

It certainly explains why the government has been so insistent about the need to wash our hands frequently, even if it seems a rather low-key response.

The programme is still available on iPlayer for the next month, and at 74 minutes long will give you something to do while you are self-isolating.  ;)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: g3uiss on March 15, 2020, 06:32:48 PM
I guess this wonderful forum may have another benefit as time progresses. I’m 70 and can’t face isolation for very long, but here we have a likeminded community and hopefully can support our mental health if nothing else.

My daughter has been sent home from St Andrews university ( student) and told not to return until September, she is in her third year and some on line tuition is promised. I’m also chair of a charity, we are making arrangements for board meetings by Skype etc. So whatever the government says the population is making its own mind in a good and bad sense.

Keep well everyone.

Tony
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 15, 2020, 08:50:49 PM
Did anyone catch the repeat of "Contagion: The BBC Four Pandemic" broadcast at 02:00 the other night? Apparently it was first shown in March 2018, and given the current situation was eerily prescient.

It certainly explains why the government has been so insistent about the need to wash our hands frequently, even if it seems a rather low-key response.

The programme is still available on iPlayer for the next month, and at 74 minutes long will give you something to do while you are self-isolating.  ;)

Just watched it, thanks for the tip.   Fascinating, and might well be the source of the hand washing advice.   I wish they’d foreseen that, obvious with hindsight, such advice would lead to shortages of soap.

Is it just me, or were their ‘reasonable worst case’ assumptions probably quite optimistic compared to what we’re seeing with COVID-19?    Also worth pointing out that the documentary was about a flu virus, whereby they tell us that the authorities already have warehouses full of medicines, and could knock up a vaccine in just a few months.   Unfortunately of course, Covid’s not flu, no stockpiles of medicines, and no vaccine any time soon.  :'(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: johnson on March 16, 2020, 01:20:37 AM
Did anyone catch the repeat of "Contagion: The BBC Four Pandemic" broadcast at 02:00 the other night? Apparently it was first shown in March 2018, and given the current situation was eerily prescient.

It certainly explains why the government has been so insistent about the need to wash our hands frequently, even if it seems a rather low-key response.

The programme is still available on iPlayer for the next month, and at 74 minutes long will give you something to do while you are self-isolating.  ;)

Just watched it as well, its beyond spooky! They simulate an outbreak starting in haslemere, which I believe is where the first reported case without travel to an affected area was last week.

Chilling, their model predicts 40m infected in the UK and with a 2% death rate 800k dead. All this with a a flu model which I think has a far shorter period without showing symptoms.

As 7LM said, the preparations for such a pandemic seem to be centred around flu, with an expected 4 month lead time for a vaccine... unlike C19.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 16, 2020, 07:01:34 PM
I went ahead with a pre booked Dentists appointment today, hygienist clean then a long overdue full checkup.   I felt quite well but even so, before setting off, I checked my temperature.   36 point something, quite normal.   

Did the Dental staff check my temperature for themselves?  No.
Did they even ask if I had a temperature, or other symptoms?  No.

There was a virus warning poster on display, and (optional) hand sanitiser on the reception desk, but these seemed to be the only precautions.

 :'(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 16, 2020, 08:19:33 PM
I dismay at people posting on Facebook "its just the Flu", there honestly seems to be some people that just don't understand the gravity of the situation.

I shouldn't be surprised really, its how we ended up with Brexit and electing this government back in again despite their complete incompetence after all.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 16, 2020, 09:14:43 PM

I dismay at people posting on Facebook "its just the Flu", there honestly seems to be some people that just don't understand the gravity of the situation.
I do not share your views on all matters mentioned, but I certainly share your dismay on people who are playing down this crisis.   

Governments all over the world are taking steps that are certain to send their economies spiralling into ruin.     Stock markets and pension savings will not just bounce back, because many companies will go completely bust, whereupon shareholder assets are gone for good.  Heaven knows what the future holds for us all, even after the outbreak subsides.

What possible motivation would these governments (that is ALL governments in the world) have to take these measures, other the fact that COVID-19 is for real?

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 16, 2020, 09:21:14 PM
I dismay at people posting on Facebook "its just the Flu", there honestly seems to be some people that just don't understand the gravity of the situation.

I shouldn't be surprised really, its how we ended up with Brexit and electing this government back in again despite their complete incompetence after all.
Agree with the first sentence, totally disagree with all statements in the last sentence - we ended up with the Conservatives back in power because the UK people saw Labour for the complete shambles they were/are.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 17, 2020, 05:57:20 PM
Things are starting to get bad here in Skye. No food to buy in the local co-op supermarket today. Luckily we have booked a delivery slot from Tesco for this coming Friday. Tesco comes across from Inverness to the island and has a pickup point for us in the carpark in Broadford. We’re taking orders from our neighbours and adding their needs into our own shopping basket for Friday where neighbours have been caught out by the coop. And thank goodness, we have flour in the house already so we can at least make bread.

Janet does B&B and her B&B guests have been cancelling their holidays across the board so our income will be zero, so it’s crisis time. The government is going to have to do something serious to help people, to feed them, to make sure people have something to live on. Luckily this won’t be forever, but I don’t know how long it will be.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: broadstairs on March 17, 2020, 06:17:28 PM
I know it's going to be hard especially for islanders who rely on the tourist trade. We have just had to cancel out visit to the Isle of Wight because we are in the group advised to avoid social gatherings and unnecessary travel. We were worried what might happen if we got the bug would we be allowed to travel back on the ferry.

As to supplies in the shops even here on the mainland it is problematic, our local Sainsbury looked like it had been ravaged this morning and not much better elsewhere.

Stuart
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: j0hn on March 17, 2020, 06:24:13 PM
Just FYI Tesco don't put your shopping aside when you order.
They pick it prior to delivery to you.

If you have pasta, rice, tinned soup, coffee, toilet roll, etc on your online order don't be surprised if much of it doesn't show up.

The mad panic buying by some is ridiculous.
I went to my local Tesco around 10pm last night and it looked like the zombie apocalypse had come.
Empty shelves all round and empty boxes all over the floor.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 17, 2020, 06:28:49 PM
@Weaver, sympathies re the income loss.

Good idea taking orders for neighbours.   I’ve  been thinking about doing likewise as most of our neighbours are even more elderly than me and not very computer literate.  One’s  recovering from a recent stroke, and another is making serious efforts to self-isolate as she’s on immuno-suppressant drugs following a major organ transplant.

I’ll test the water first though as my first ever home delivery is due tomorrow.  Much of the stuff I have ordered, edibles included, is now unavailable to re-order.  So I’m not pinning my hopes on anything useful actually materialising.... :(

And damn, you reminded me, I should have ordered flour.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 17, 2020, 06:29:27 PM
Here’s hoping anyway. The COVID-19 situation is, so Janet tells me, fairly non-existent thus far in the Highlands, but I may be wrong. I don’t know about the Lowlands of Scotland/Central Belt. We couldn’t be much more isolated here if we tried, Although perhaps the Western Isles and Northern Isles might win that one.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: broadstairs on March 17, 2020, 08:28:32 PM
The problem for the scientists right now is there is no reliable test for seeing whether someone has HAD the virus either asymptomatically or had it  and recovered. Once they this it will be a game changer in terms of understanding.

Stuart
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 17, 2020, 08:29:57 PM
Janet tells me there are now two cases in the Highlands.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: tickmike on March 17, 2020, 09:31:20 PM
https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/685d0ace521648f8a5beeeee1b9125cd
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: burakkucat on March 17, 2020, 09:36:40 PM
https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/685d0ace521648f8a5beeeee1b9125cd

See my Reply #11 (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,24502.msg411923.html#msg411923) on the first page of this topic.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 17, 2020, 10:34:30 PM
Janet does B&B and her B&B guests have been cancelling their holidays across the board so our income will be zero, so it’s crisis time. The government is going to have to do something serious to help people, to feed them, to make sure people have something to live on. Luckily this won’t be forever, but I don’t know how long it will be.

This is exactly why people should have savings, a rainy day fund, but too many people spend what income they have and don't save anything, I guess I'm just old fashioned.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: tickmike on March 17, 2020, 10:43:06 PM
This is exactly why people should have savings, a rainy day fund

We lost £10000 plus of ours in two weeks  :o we sent forms in to withdraw it all if there is any left of our Bond.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 18, 2020, 08:45:04 AM
I estimate I've lost about £6000 on my investments, I have withdrawn some, which I did online, but not early enough and nearly a week later still haven't received the money. I did get lucky with one small pension fund I was in the process of transferring and was able to divert that to a cash holding, but if I'm not careful I could miss out on rises in the market as it needs to be reinvested at some point. I also invested some cash in a new pension after the first big drops thinking that was it but I was wrong. My current investments would give me a pension of about £4000 a year if lucky, so we can ill afford these losses but that's the risk with investing and why we keep some cash investments to, just in case something bad happens. We are not well off, we live comfortably and carefully, both our cars are over ten years old, and we're trying to save for retirement, I have ten to fifteen years to go depending on how our savings go.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 18, 2020, 08:46:01 AM
An email from Sainsburys.

Quote
Dear Ron,

I wrote to you last week to tell you about some of the steps we are taking to support increased demand for food and other essential items.

After I wrote to you last week, many of you replied. You wrote to share your concerns about our elderly and vulnerable customers and to ask if we can do more to restrict the number of items each person can buy. I have listened to feedback from you and from Sainsbury's colleagues across the country and wanted to share some of the extra steps we are taking to make sure everyone has access to the items that they need:

A number of you suggested that we reserve an hour in stores for elderly and vulnerable customers. In response to this request, we will set aside the first hour in every supermarket this Thursday 19th March, for elderly and vulnerable customers. I hope that you can respect this decision and will work with us as we try our best to help those that need it the most. If you or an elderly family member, friend or neighbour would like to shop during this hour, please check online for your local supermarket opening hours.

We will also help elderly and vulnerable customers access food online. From Monday 23rd March, our online customers who are over 70 years of age or have a disability will have priority access to online delivery slots. We will contact these customers in the coming days with more details.

For any online customer who can travel to our stores, from Monday 23rd March, we will operate an expanded 'click and collect' service. We are significantly increasing the number of collection sites across the country over the coming days in preparation for this. Customers can place their order online as usual and pick it up from a collection point in the store car park. We believe this will also work for people who are self-isolating.

As we work to feed the nation, we are also focusing all of our efforts on getting as much food and other essential items from our suppliers, into our warehouses and onto shelves as we possibly can. We still have enough food for everyone - if we all just buy what we need for us and our families.

To help us get more essential items onto the shelves, from this Thursday 19th March, we will be closing our cafes and our meat, fish and pizza counters in supermarkets. This means we can free up warehouse and lorry capacity for products that customers really need. It will also free up time for our store colleagues to focus on keeping the shelves as well stocked as possible.

I mentioned last week that we had put limits on a very small number of products. Following feedback from our customers and from our store colleagues, we have decided to put restrictions on a larger number of products. From tomorrow, Wednesday 18th March, customers will be able to buy a maximum of three of any grocery product and a maximum of two on the most popular products including toilet paper, soap and UHT milk. We have enough food coming into the system, but are limiting sales so that it stays on shelves for longer and can be bought by a larger numbers of customers.

Finally, I wanted to end by saying a huge thank you to Sainsbury's colleagues across the business. Everyone is working flat out in difficult circumstances to do their best to serve our customers. If you're able to say thank you to them when you see them, I know they would hugely appreciate it.

Best wishes

Mike
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: d2d4j on March 18, 2020, 08:52:05 AM
Hi

I know it appears bad but they will recover.

I honestly believe this has all been hyped to the point of hysteria by firstly, the media and then politicians

If we all keep calm and think of others in relation to not hoarding food etc... there will be enough for all and supermarket shelf’s would be normal

This is not happening though and the thoughtless are making the situation worse for all

These are just my thoughts

Many thanks

John
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 18, 2020, 09:25:39 AM
From Ronski's Sainsburys letter...
Quote
To help us get more essential items onto the shelves, from this Thursday 19th March, we will be closing our cafes and our meat, fish and pizza counters in supermarkets.
...what does that refer to?

@d2d4j,  I can only try and persuade you to sit back and look at the facts.  No government is acting on media hysteria, they are acting solely on scientific advice, either local advice or International advice.  What possible motive would a government have to ruin the economy, other than that the scientific advice is overwhelmingly convincing?  Our own government has been better than most IMHO, distancing themselves from even WHO guidance so as to rely first and foremost on our own trusted advisors.  But unsurprisingly,  our own experts seem to have come to exactly the same conclusions as WHO and so we seem to be back on a common course.

I've yet to establish the facts but it was mentioned on BBC Breakfast this morning that the Police may soon be given special powers to forcibly detain and isolate people with symptoms.   If that is true, does it still sound like hype?

I do think it's time for the media to stop giving airtime to those with no scientific knowledge.  That includes all party-specific politicians, especially opposition MPs, or  'former ministers', both of whom might be suffering from sour grapes after losing their jobs.  It also includes social media stars, unless they have full scientific qualifications, I'm just not interested. Briefings from the PM, representing the Government rather than the party, and flanked by his advisors are much more useful.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: broadstairs on March 18, 2020, 09:29:12 AM
Totally agree John. The astonishing selfishness of the hoarders beggars belief. I do feel that the PM in particular is not being careful in the way he is presenting things and this is driving much of the hysteria. You only have to open say the Daily Mail to see they are not just reporting facts but much else as well which is not helping

Stuart
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 18, 2020, 09:49:03 AM
From Ronski's Sainsburys letter......what does that refer to?

I took it to mean  they're closing their cafes and meat, fish and pizza counters in supermarkets, which in turn means staff can stack shelves, space in delivery trucks can be used for essential items etc.

McDonald's are closing all seating areas, and will only be take away /drive through or McDelivery (https://www.mcdonalds.com/gws-newsroom/gb/en-gb/2020/3/covid_19_updates.html)

Tesco's are planning on only opening 6am to 10pm, no longer 24 hours

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8122785/Tesco-set-announce-reduced-opening-hours-6am-10pm-24-hour-stores-tonight.html

Some useful info can be found by the below link for those struggling financially.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2020/03/uk-coronavirus-help-and-your-rights/
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 18, 2020, 09:50:40 AM
I know it appears bad but they will recover.

I personally think that recovery will be very slow, and how many companies are going to go bust, which they can't recover from.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: broadstairs on March 18, 2020, 10:40:52 AM
The economic recovery will depend on how quickly or slowly the pandemic subsides, and the latter is a complete unknown right now. Yes some companies will not recover most likely in the leisure and hospitality industries at least at first.

Stuart
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 18, 2020, 11:25:50 AM
Just had confirmation of what I will and won’t receive in my first ever online shop.  Doesn’t look too bad...

Two tins of soup ordered, none available.
One pot of hand wash, none available.
Extra thick tinfoil ordered, standard tinfoil substituted.
Pack of 16 own-brand  loo rolls, pack of 9 substituted.
1.5 kg of potatoes ordered, 2kg of different potatoes substituted.

Other stuff like pairs of chicken kievs, meatballs, fish, instant coffee, bread, various bottled sauces, a bit of veg’, a few bottles of wine, all look set for delivery. :fingers:

And one more thing that I’m trying to blot out... 4 bottles of real ale ordered, none available.    :o

There seems to be plenty of other beers on the shelf, I suspect I just made an unfortunate choice and they were not inclined to substitute.    :(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 18, 2020, 01:01:26 PM
I asked my friend who has daily reports from his girlfriend in Italy if things are as serious as the media reports are making out.

He said its much much worse than the media are reporting.

I've also seen other reports basically saying that if you're over 60 in Italy and get it, you're screwed as the ventilators are only being offered to under 60s due to a huge shortage.

This is exactly what we should be trying to avoid over here and why our governments slow reaction is being laughed at by other countries.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: meritez on March 18, 2020, 02:37:57 PM
Tomorrow marks a fortnight of working from home to avoid this SARS-COV-2 virus.

The roads around here seem empty, my local Aldi looks ransacked.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 18, 2020, 03:31:44 PM
My wife's just come back from getting some shopping, she couldn't get potatoes anywhere, not even the local farm shop.

ETA. She did later find some at another fruit & veg shop
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 18, 2020, 03:43:43 PM
Interesting analysis by Imperial College researchers, explaining the various options and possible consequences.

Graphs show the predicted timelines from doing nothing, through to full insolation with closing of schools, as has happened in some regions.  It’s easy to see why the latter is not necessarily (but might be) the best option - look what happens next winter on the green line.   I don’t envy any PM faced with choosing which path to follow. :(

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/196234/covid19-imperial-researchers-model-likely-impact/
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Bowdon on March 18, 2020, 04:52:41 PM
I was going to put in an order today with Ocado. I sat in the virtual queue for about 3 hours (even though it predicted 2 hours). It got down to position number 37 then refreshed to say the site is temporarily closed until Saturday.

Ocado as really been caught off with bandwidth requirements of their website. They had to close their app yesterday as that was lagging for people.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 18, 2020, 05:41:10 PM
Schools are now to be closed at the end of the week, except for looking after the children of key workers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51952314
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 18, 2020, 06:01:42 PM
Schools are now to be closed at the end of the week, except for looking after the children of key workers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51952314

Seems to me it will only work if we also prevent children from mixing and playing together, for many months and maybe a year or two, which I really don’t think can be good for them. I’m not a parent, and certainly not a shrink, so just speculating. :(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 18, 2020, 07:37:37 PM
I had the exact same thought whilst watching the news. How many parents are going to be able to keep their children indoors.

Luckily both of ours are adults, one lives at home  and is in her last year at school. The other is at university, but currently at home, she's says she is going back as she can study better there, oh and her boyfriend is there to.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: g3uiss on March 18, 2020, 07:46:12 PM
My daughter is at St Andrews, and has been sent home and told she can’t return until September. In her 3rd year of 4. Some online tuition promised, I have my doubts. She is 21 and is becoming quite difficult in our insistence on the social distancing.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 18, 2020, 07:59:35 PM
Mine's at York, they are no longer holding lectures, but they can use the library etc. She studies Bio-chemistry so hopefully fully understands the risks, although I'm not sure she fully appreciates them - several weeks ago she told me it wouldn't be a problem, she wouldn't have it when I said it would be. She's in private accommodation and says she can revise better there, we'll not be happy if she does go back, but she 20 years old now, so we can't stop her.

One of our friends partners has gone down with it, they've just come back from India - luckily we haven't seen them recently.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: g3uiss on March 18, 2020, 08:53:29 PM
Yes I understand! 20/21 they don’t do reasonably and sensible  >:(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: pooclah on March 19, 2020, 05:48:30 PM
Is Chris Whitty a robot?  I've never seen him blink.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 19, 2020, 06:10:24 PM
Is Chris Whitty a robot?  I've never seen him blink.

Interesting speculation that I will check out in future broadcasts. :D

Joking apart, I find Whitty quite convincing.   He comes across to me as honestly presenting the facts, unswayed by political pressure, unswayed by international pressures, and unswayed by public opinion.   Which is exactly the way that science should be conducted.

We only see a limited subset of his peers and equivalents in other countries but so far, of those I’ve seen, I’d rather have Whitty than anybody else guiding our government through this.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: pooclah on March 19, 2020, 06:52:13 PM
He does come across as professional and factual, it was just something seemed odd about him.  Today I realised what it was.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 19, 2020, 07:05:24 PM
He does come across as professional and factual, it was just something seemed odd about him.  Today I realised what it was.

I meant no criticism of your comment, I see what you mean. :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: pooclah on March 19, 2020, 08:02:31 PM
Your reply didn’t come across as criticising at all, it seems the older I get the more terse my comments get, apologies for that.

Like you our Home delivery was missing beer :(  Are people stockpiling everything now?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 20, 2020, 11:37:34 AM
Person arrested in the Isle of Man for not self isolating.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-51974140

ETA. Altered to reflect the Isle of Man is not in the UK

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: CarlT on March 20, 2020, 02:20:05 PM
Small point - the Isle of Man is not a part of the UK.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: j0hn on March 20, 2020, 02:20:59 PM
Isle of Man.

I don't think such a law exists in England/Wales or in Scotland.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: watcher on March 20, 2020, 03:04:26 PM
I don't think such a law exists in England/Wales or in Scotland.

The Health Protection (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020 provide a wide ranging set of powers to the authorities including compulsory detention and/or keeping in isolation.

See this link (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/129/regulation/13/made) for the source of the information below:

"...Enforcement

13.—(1) Where a requirement is imposed on a person to be detained or kept in isolation under regulation 4, 5 or 8, a constable may do any of the following—

(a)take the person to a suitable place, specified by the Secretary of State or a public health officer, for the person’s detention or isolation;

(b)keep the person in detention or isolation.

(2) Where a person absconds from detention or isolation imposed under regulation 4, 5 or 8, a constable may take the person into custody and return the person to the place of detention or isolation, or take the person to another suitable place specified by a public health officer.

(3) A constable may use reasonable force, if necessary, in the exercise of a power under this regulation....".

Regulation 15 also makes failure to comply with restrictions or requirements, absconding or attempting to abscond from detention or isolation, obstructing a person carrying out a function under the Regulations, or providing false or misleading information to a person carrying out a function under the Regulations a criminal offence which can carry a fine of up to £1,000.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 20, 2020, 04:05:51 PM
Small point - the Isle of Man is not a part of the UK.

Well I never realised that, or if I did I've since forgotten  :-[
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 21, 2020, 08:29:48 AM
Another email from Sainsburys.

Quote
Update from Sainsbury's Chief Executive Mike Coupe

Dear Ron,

I wanted to write to you again to update you on the steps we are taking to make sure everyone has access to food and essential items. I'm also sharing more information about how we are supporting our colleagues in these challenging times and how you can help.

An increasing number of you have told me that you're not always able to get the items that you need when you need them. We are working with our suppliers to get even more stock of essential items and we are adding warehouse capacity on a daily basis. You will have seen that we put restrictions in place this week to ensure that more products are on shelf for longer. From Monday 23rd March, we are consolidating our opening hours and all our supermarkets will be open from 8am to 8pm, Monday-Saturday, including those with an Argos store. Sunday opening, Sainsbury’s Local and petrol station opening times will stay the same.

This means we can focus our store colleagues’ time on keeping shelves stocked and serving our customers well during the times that most of you are already shopping.

Last Thursday, we set aside an hour for elderly and vulnerable shoppers in our supermarkets. Many of you have told me how much you appreciated this and that you would like this to become a regular event. Some of you also said we should extend this to members of our hardworking NHS and Social Care workers. And we will be doing just that.

Every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, all our supermarkets will dedicate 8am - 9am to serving elderly, disabled and vulnerable customers, as well as NHS and Social Care workers. They will just need to show us their pass or ID when they visit. Some of you fed back that you couldn’t find what you wanted during that hour, so we will try our best to have essential items on shelf for these customers. We will be working to keep our shelves well stocked and would encourage customers to arrive throughout the hour to prevent queues forming and to help everyone keep a safe distance.

Hundreds of you have written to me to thank our amazing colleagues who are working around the clock to serve our customers. A number of you have also shared your concerns for the safety and wellbeing of our colleagues. I want you to know that we are doing all we can to support everyone who works in our business. We have committed to paying all colleagues who are unwell or need to self-isolate for the full period of fourteen days. We have also committed to paying vulnerable and elderly colleagues in full if the government decides they should isolate for 12 weeks. We hope this will go some way to helping our teams through this uncertain time and we are looking at other ways to thank our colleagues for their extraordinary efforts.

To keep our colleagues safe, I need to ask again for your help. Please do your best to stand one metre away from colleagues in our stores where you can. And we would prefer you to pay with card rather than cash at our tills. Please also treat our colleagues and other customers with kindness and respect. These are unprecedented circumstances and our colleagues are being asked to come to work every day while so many others are being asked to stay at home. We all need them to keep coming to work to feed the nation – a small thank you goes a really long way.

I hope you will join us in looking out for each other and the communities that we serve.

Best wishes

Mike
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Bowdon on March 21, 2020, 10:43:19 AM
That is good from Sainsbury's.

It's about time these superstores started enforcing rules. Because its not like they have an incentive to stop people panic buying other than public outrage at it.

The main online shop I use is Ocado and considering it only as an online presense its totally fell on its backside.

From virtual queues, to shutting down the website for 4 days and saying it'll be open on Saturday. Now the message is saying only people who have current orders can login, and the old "don't contact us, we'll contact you" message is now on there.

The problem I see is that they can't tell who is who, from a casual shopper to people who pay a monthly fee for smartpass, or even just a long standing customers.

I think if these superstores won't enforce proper rules I can see a good case for the police and army getting involved.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 21, 2020, 11:09:35 AM
One big step I’d like to see is complete cessation of multi buy offers.     Last time I visited Waitrose the shelves where toilet rolls might be was of course empty.  But the price labels were still there, boasting 2 for deals.

Lots of other 2 fors and 3 fors scattered around the shop, above mostly empty shelves, all encouraging greed and stockpiling.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 21, 2020, 11:12:36 AM
I wonder just how much food is going to go to waste, people being greedy and buying too much perishable food, which will go off or out of date before they use it.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: broadstairs on March 21, 2020, 11:15:44 AM
Sainsburys and Tesco have no delivery or click&collect slots available for the next 3 week. Iceland only book 6 days in advance and don't have any slots. I think the government needs to step in and organise something so those in the age group they want to stay out of crowds can get this service. Sainsburys did say they would be able to identify those in the older groups from their existing database, but I don't see how as they never took age or DOB when we signed up, to prioritise this group for delivery etc.

Stuart
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 21, 2020, 11:24:21 AM
I wonder just how much food is going to go to waste, people being greedy and buying too much perishable food, which will go off or out of date before they use it.

Indeed.  When we treat ourselves to a roast chicken, I usually spend upwards of £10 for a decent free range specimen.    Yet waitrose (again) have had their sad-looking ‘essential’ whole chickens on 3 for £10 for ages now, long predating this panic buying.   I’ve often wondered how many of these wretched birds end up in landfill.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: johnson on March 21, 2020, 12:23:21 PM
I think the government needs to step in and organise something so those in the age group they want to stay out of crowds can get this service.

During the day yesterday I saw a segment on the news that said morrisons was making food packages with lots of essentials in a single box that could be ordered by phone. First and last I have heard of it, but I believe its a sign the big shops are adapting.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: broadstairs on March 21, 2020, 12:33:40 PM
Yes hopefully but the problem is that many of the younger people are doing home delivery to the exclusion of those in the groups the government wants to keep out of shops, so those people are being forced to shop in store defeating the object and exposing themselves to more risk. The idea of self rationing is alien to many younger folk and they simply don't see why they should. If everyone bought what they normally do each week and no more there would not be a problem.

Stuart
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 21, 2020, 01:37:18 PM
One problem I have been finding with home delivery is, lots of stuff will be missing come delivery day.    That creates an incentive to order more, say a cauliflower as well as a broccoli just to double your chances of getting either one or the other.  Not defending such habits, just pointing out it will be human nature to do so.

Our village newsletter came around today, offering a parish communal shopping service by volunteers, on behalf of those who are isolating or are ill.   Seems like a good idea to me, though the volunteer doing the shopping might need special dispensation to exceed individual item purchase limits.  Not sure how that would work.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: johnson on March 21, 2020, 03:29:37 PM
Just been out to aldi and tesco.

Tescos had some empty aisles (I couldnt help but laugh at the one with the "household essentials" sign hanging above picked clean), but plenty of fruit and veg, decent amount of frozen stuff left.

Aldi was even better stocked, tins, pasta, jars. Loads of frozen stuff, lots of fresh fish.

The only thing missing from both was toilet roll, hey ho.

Edit: typo + was also great to see that almost all of the checkouts had 2 people on, a trainer and trainee.  :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: jelv on March 21, 2020, 05:28:23 PM
Not all the excess fresh food being bought may go off - I heard today that white goods shops are experiencing a run on freezers!
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 21, 2020, 05:50:27 PM
Now that wouldn't surprise me.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 21, 2020, 06:39:32 PM
Just had email from John Lewis partnership, all shops are ‘temporarily’ closing on Monday. 

That’s the Dept stores, Waitrose remain open.  They hint that Waitrose may even benefit, from redeployment of staff.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Bowdon on March 21, 2020, 08:42:57 PM
Another thing that is annoying is these supermarket sites let you fill up the basket and then at the end say there is no delivery slots. Even the click and collect slots are booked out.

Today I tried signing up to Sainsbury but it wouldn't let me. They have stopped people making new accounts. I signed up to Tesco and Iceland. But neither have slots available.

How are people managing to buy all the food? Most of the people I've seen look like they are on welfare.

The government needs to stop advising people and start enforcing it. It's not the 1950s were people are saying "oh sorry old chap.. have this toilet roll". The reality is enough greedy people are upsetting the system and unless this doesnt get under control I can see a public backlash.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: broadstairs on March 21, 2020, 09:57:16 PM
I suspect with Sainsburys it could be that they are trying to come up with a way to identify oldies to give priority to them for slots. Both Sainsburys and Tesco allow you to see slot availability prior to ordering.

Stuart
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 22, 2020, 08:49:54 AM
Quote
Further update from Sainsbury's Chief Executive Mike Coupe

Dear Ron,

We are continuing to work around the clock to feed the nation in these challenging times.

Many of you have written to me in the past 24 hours to tell me that you like the idea of priority shopping for NHS workers and for elderly and disabled customers, but that these should be at different times.

We have therefore decided to allow NHS and social care workers to shop in our supermarkets for half an hour before they open each day. So anyone with NHS ID will be able to shop from 07.30-08.00 every day from Monday to Saturday. We're delighted to be able to offer priority shopping to all the hard-working NHS staff across the country who are working so hard to keep us all safe and well.

In addition to this, every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, all our supermarkets will dedicate 08.00-09.00 to serving elderly customers, disabled customers and carers.

Many of you have also asked me about priority online delivery slots for elderly, disabled and vulnerable customers.

We have been able to identify a number of customers as elderly and vulnerable based on the information they have given us previously. These details would include date of birth and if you have ever used our vulnerable customer helpline. For all of these customers, we will email you today (Sunday) with information on when slots will become available.

If you do not receive an email and you consider yourself to be vulnerable, please visit our Groceries Online website on Monday for information on how to contact us. We are also working as quickly as possible on an option for people to register themselves as disabled and vulnerable on their online shopping accounts.

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to get in touch with me and share your feedback - it's because of you that we are making these changes and we will continue to listen, learn and adapt during this uncertain time.

Best wishes

Mike
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: kitz on March 22, 2020, 09:05:26 AM
Asda have no delivery slots either now.   It looks like they've closed down click and collect.   Everything is completely blocked out for the whole calendar as far forward as it goes.
 
I do have an order due tomorrow which I booked a week ago.  I signed in to add a couple of things last night, but as soon as I did that I got a message listing of all the things that I'd ordered last week which are now out of stock.  I ended up cancelling my amends because the items which aren't in stock take me below the threshold and I'd have to pay £5 for the delivery despite having a pass, so that gives you an idea of how low on stock they are.   

Since I can't get a slot for next month at all and only managed to get 2 this month, I wonder if they will give a refund to those of us who pay for an annual pass because we rely on it each week, yet can't use it.   

I don't think they are giving priority for delivery slots for the vulnerable, they have just asked on the site to be considerate when booking time slots... like that will make any difference.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 22, 2020, 09:26:08 AM
From my observation of home delivery, both Tesco and Waitrose...

It appears that you can’t add things to your basket that are not currently on the shelf at local centres.  Trouble is, by the time the order gets packed for delivery these things might be available again, yet you weren’t allowed to order them. 

And other things, that were ok when you ordered are now out of stock, so removed from the delivery.

This seems to be the case even for amending an order that’s imminent.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: roseway on March 22, 2020, 11:59:02 AM
Yesterday I received my first Waitrose delivery, and I was quite pleased with the result. The only thing where I fell foul of "no stock" was two packets of frozen veg, which I'd added to the order at the last moment (24 hours before delivery). There were a few substitutions, one of which was a bit idiosyncratic but OK.

But that looks like my last as well as my first, because every slot is now booked up to 20 June.

But the good news for old and vulnerable customers is that Waitrose is now giving over the first hour of opening every day to those categories. I went there this morning to get a couple of items which I'd missed from my delivery order, and they were actually policing it, stopping every car coming in and speaking to the occupant. I was in and out in ten minutes, and happy with the result.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: 4candles on March 22, 2020, 12:50:33 PM
But the good news for old and vulnerable customers is that Waitrose is now giving over the first hour of opening every day to those categories. I went there this morning to get a couple of items which I'd missed from my delivery order, and they were actually policing it, stopping every car coming in and speaking to the occupant. I was in and out in ten minutes, and happy with the result.
That's encouraging to hear.
'Vulnerable hour' was supposed to be operating at my local branch last Friday. Absolute farce - standing adjacent to the prominent notice about the scheme, a young female assistant was waving everyone in with a "Good morning - all are welcome". None of the usual security personnel anywhere to be seen.
Hope it's better next time.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 22, 2020, 01:13:35 PM
Maybe I’m just envious, as I don’t quite qualify on age criteria.  I’ve one or two ‘underlying conditions’ that may put me at risk.  But who hasn’t, over the age of greying hair?  And I’m unwilling to turn up at the door and plead for sympathy.

But I’m just not convinced that ‘prioritising’ any one group will solve any problem, other than a bit of good publicity for the supermarket.   We all need to eat, regardless of age.

Arguably it’s the youngest of all (younger than me, certainly) who should have priority access to soaps and sanitisers, as they’ll be the ones who’s jobs will make it hardest to self-isolate.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Bowdon on March 22, 2020, 01:46:22 PM
I noticed a couple of sites asked if I was either over 70, a vulnerable person, or in isolation. But it didn't make any difference when it came to ordering as there just isn't any delivery slots.

The food sites should have closed themselves to new customers, except those that can prove they are in an allowed group.

Someone on facebook said that shops should remove trolley's and only have people using the hand basket. I seem to have a memory from early childhood of a similar situation in the local stores and thats what they did. It soon stopped people hoarding as they couldnt carry that much in the basket.

I don't think the government is helping by putting out warning messages. When I've stumbled across someone defending hoarding they say they are stocking up in case they have to go in to 14 day isolation. Like they think they won't have access to food. I think the government needs to address this. I've often wondered when hearing stories of lockdowns, how those people are supposed to eat? It's ok ordering people in their homes but unless there is a way to access food then I don't see how a lockdown can operate. I wonder how people in these other countries (and US states) deal with supplying food while in a lockdown/quarantine?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Bowdon on March 22, 2020, 10:20:47 PM
I fell for it again guys  :(

I got an email from Ocado saying they had identified me as a vulnerable person. They give me a special link to click and was told to login, make an order and book a delivery. I thought awesome!

Used the link, made the order, got to the delivery page and no delivery slots. What's more is they only have tomorrow, tuesday and wednesday listed. They used to go a few weeks in advance.

So I fell for the old trick thinking there would be delivery slots, especially when told by them to make a delivery  :no:
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 22, 2020, 10:27:13 PM
Just how low can people go, in normal times this would be extremely bad, but with what's going on now  :no: :no:

https://theisleofthanetnews.com/2020/03/22/police-receive-report-of-drilled-tyres-on-thanet-ambulance/

This was at our local ambulance station.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: jelv on March 23, 2020, 09:58:10 AM
I saw a tweet about that and a follow up from a local security firm offering to do free patrols for them:

Quote from: https://twitter.com/probesec1/status/1241756166952271872?s=20
probesec
@probesec1 18h
I’m so sorry to hear this,
We at @probesec1
  would like to offer free evening mobile patrols to the ambulance station if they require it. If the station manager would like to take up this offer please email the office on info@probesecurity.co.uk Many Thanks #thanet
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 23, 2020, 12:18:35 PM
At risk of offending all Londoners...  do they actually feel an ‘entitlement’ to live in a world of their own?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52003076

Yes I know about the weekend chaos at Snowdonia, West Wittering beach etc, but cramming themselves onto a crowded underground train seems mind numbingly irresponsible to me, like they haven’t taken in single a word of advice.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: displaced on March 23, 2020, 01:17:36 PM
In fairness, Londoners aren’t a monolithic group of idiots.

They’ve got the same worries as everywhere else - idiot bosses who won’t let them take time off or work from home, landlords demanding rent for the next few months upfront, precarious housing situations, or jobs that actually are essential.  But the sheer numbers, coupled with a big reduction in tube and bus services lead to pictures like those in the article.

All those problems are exacerbated by the fact that most people can’t afford to live near their jobs, so commutes are required.

I mean, yes, there’ll be some idiots acting in bad faith, but I really don’t think that’s the whole story... unlike the absolute *morons* who congregated at Faversham for a few beers last week. No excuse.

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: kitz on March 23, 2020, 01:53:54 PM
Quote
I do have an order due tomorrow which I booked a week ago.

Well that was a disaster.   
Out of an order which was originally £130.73, total goods worth £27.21 were received.   In that £27 was a jar of Olay and 1 bottle of wine.. if you also take the bin bags off, I was left with about £12 worth of groceries mostly cat food.   No eggs, no bread, no peas, no corn, no beans and I can't believe they didn't even substitute milk for anything else, surely there must have been some milk as I was first order of the day.     

So after all that wait all I ended up with this week was basically:  2 chicken breasts, mushrooms, lettuce, part baked petit pans, garlic dip and bananas.     :'(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 23, 2020, 02:15:25 PM
Well that was a disaster.   
Out of an order which was originally £130.73, total goods worth £27.21 were received.   In that £27 was a jar of Olay and 1 bottle of wine.. if you also take the bin bags off, I was left with about £12 worth of groceries mostly cat food.   No eggs, no bread, no peas, no corn, no beans and I can't believe they didn't even substitute milk for anything else, surely there must have been some milk as I was first order of the day.     

So after all that wait all I ended up with this week was basically:  2 chicken breasts, mushrooms, lettuce, part baked petit pans, garlic dip and bananas.     :'(

We have you beat, had a pre-booked slot with Ocado for weeks and its suddenly vanished without a trace, no warning, no reason, no checking that we are at-risk so a priority, and their phone lines are closed.

Mum is frantically trying to get in touch with Sainsburys now as they won't let her order without confirming she is at-risk and the phone lines are jammed.  Also some stupid restrictions on how much you can order so its impossible to buy a weekly shop for two in one order.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 23, 2020, 02:21:17 PM
From my observation of home delivery, both Tesco and Waitrose...

It appears that you can’t add things to your basket that are not currently on the shelf at local centres.  Trouble is, by the time the order gets packed for delivery these things might be available again, yet you weren’t allowed to order them. 

Yup, its always worked like that and makes no sense whatsoever.

Its even more frustrating when you check your order the day before and it tells you what is no longer available but won't let you change the order at that point to add things that now ARE in stock.

Whenever we've complained about it in the past their response is "our service isn't intended for people who are disabled so can't get to the shops".

If there is one good thing to come out of this pandemic, I hope its that the government clamp down and demand that online delivery is better designed for people who are housebound.  Some of us have been suffering this mess for years already.

I mean sure, normally I'm not housebound as such, just have social anxiety and issues with major fatigue which means I'm not always awake during daylight hours.  But even then I can't do our shopping, as the shops I can get to do not stock the items my mum needs due to her dietary restrictions and it would cost a fortune to get taxis to the bigger stores on the off-chance they actually have stock.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 23, 2020, 03:21:55 PM
One thing I’ve found that Waitrose seem to do is, every time you amend an order, they knock three hours off the final deadline for amendments.  This makes it even harder to follow the availability, and to add last minute items.

as I was first order of the day.     

I wonder if being first order is necessarily a good thing, now that some are opening early to cater for elderly and vulnerable customers.   Much as I have every sympathy for the elderly and vulnerable, I see no reason to doubt that they’ll be as likely as any other group to get greedy and completely clear the shelves.  And being early, might be leaving nothing much for first deliveries?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 23, 2020, 03:43:56 PM
Another thing about being first order, it may be picked before the shelves have been re-stocked.

What's constantly annoyed me is they can have stock in the back but the pickers have to use stock on the shelves.

I know this from a friend who used to work at Sainsburys, they are heavily discouraged from checking the back as they have strict time limits.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 23, 2020, 05:28:11 PM
They’re predicting Boris is going to tighten the restrictions, after people not taking it seriously.

I do hope we’re still allowed out for walks.   There’s an obvious ‘circuit’ of our village that we’ve been walking every day, about a mile.   In the unlikely event we meet any other villagers a protocol is observed by all... cross to opposite sides of the road before passing.  It’ll be a shame if we have to stop that.

On a lighter note I’ve heard that in parts of Italy, the only acceptable excuse for going out is to walk the dog.  To this end, people without dogs are pleading to borrow dogs from neighbours and walk them.   The dogs, it seems, are becoming utterly exhausted. :D
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 24, 2020, 09:28:41 AM
Well we all know the new restrictions. And according to Victoria Derbyshire, London tubes still crowded. :(

Most of these people presumably regard themselves as key workers.  Maybe they are, or maybe not.   But time, perhaps, to start asking  at station entrances for evidence of their work status, or  purpose of their journey?    Maybe even hand out a few fines?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Bowdon on March 24, 2020, 11:51:27 AM
The guy I think I've mentioned before, who thought he had covid-19 and his work told him to still come in. Then during the next week he had the test and it proved positive. I think he got a few days off work.

Today he said he had to go to work via the tube, which was crammed full of people. Then he said when he walked past a supermarket, who were only allowing people one at a time for social distancing, outside everyone was standing next to each other in a long queue!

On the workers front, I can see if their employer is saying come in or you're sacked then people are likely to have to go in. The employers should really be punished for it.

Excluding the employment front, the people still going to crowded areas are really dumb. How can they not be self aware that standing in a crowd makes them more at risk of getting it. From what I can tell this virus seems to attack certain people badly and others get off lightly. But to even take the chance is stupid imho.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: gt94sss2 on March 24, 2020, 11:54:47 AM
While there will be many people travelling who shouldn’t be, the situation on the tube isn’t helped by the fact the Mayor has reduced tube services so they only run every 10/15 minutes - which makes social distancing almost impossible even if the numbers travelling reduced.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 24, 2020, 12:11:22 PM
The BBC interviewed a few self employed hairdressers today.   Now forced to lose their income, they have my sympathy.

But to me, the BBC maybe missed a point.   If the great British population had got the message, there would be no need to force hairdressers to close, because in the past week or two, nobody in their right mind would have been turning up for a haircut.

I therefor conclude, from the fact that hairdressers were still getting customers until legally banned, evidence the public have not yet got the message.  :'(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: jelv on March 24, 2020, 12:29:36 PM
We are going to see the army on the streets within a few days.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 24, 2020, 01:50:38 PM
I honestly think that's the only way people are going to get the message.  Its going to be very very messy.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: kitz on March 24, 2020, 02:05:49 PM
Someone in our street is having a new drive laid and the workmen have been working there most of the day.  ??? 
A builders delivery truck dropped off supplies earlier this morning too.    They've gone now so wondering if they were just finishing off the job as it was started last week.   I can't see if its been finished yet as another neighbours car is obstructing full view, but it looks like there are white plastic sheets covering the limited bit I can see.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 24, 2020, 02:31:15 PM
Just had a Tesco delivery, and pretty lucky I think.   Ordered 3 bottles milk, got two.  No tinned tomatoes, and a couple bottles of wine unavailable but otherwise OK, even got a (small) tub of hand wash.    I think the total order was about £110, £85 got delivered.

Not sure if this is a bit ocd, but I then spent a half hour wiping all the packaging, and all the bottles with food safe anti-viral disinfectant.  The carrier bags will be quarantined for a few weeks before reusing. ???
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: burakkucat on March 24, 2020, 05:10:09 PM
In the last seven days, I went outside once on Monday to put rubbish & recycling in their respective bins and today (Tuesday) to purchase grocery for the forthcoming week. The main road was significantly quieter than normal and Tesco's car park was not crowded.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Bowdon on March 24, 2020, 05:30:58 PM
I managed to get an unexpected delivery slot (Ocado) the other day and its due to be delivered today between 7:30pm and 8:30pm. They send the receipt via email before the guy appears. It's not saying any substitutions. So we'll see if the full order arrives.

It's good to know the 'mob' seem to be dying down. Maybe they have so much toilet paper they are stuck inside their houses now?  ;D
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: g3uiss on March 24, 2020, 05:45:43 PM
Today I managed a good walk with our dog. Then essential items from three shops. Got everything we needed.

There are three of us including two Vegans, so it’s a bit difficult for them ( not me!). So we are planning full shop weekLy with two top ups.

We gave a home to 2 Kittens at the weekend they needed litter and managed to get that also. They are Arthur and Elsie 10 weeks siblings abandoned. In good health but timid. Not yet introduced them to Lucy dog and tri paw Albert.

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 24, 2020, 05:47:23 PM
I have been incredibly fortunate in getting food delivered so far, but as no more slots can be booked that will end soon.  So it reassuring to hear of uncrowded car parks and food availability.

Regarding quiet roads we notice that too, on our once a day (government approved) exercise stroll around the village.  I also notice, being under a certain flight path, a big reduction in number of jet-trails in the sky.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: burakkucat on March 24, 2020, 05:59:22 PM
We gave a home to 2 Kittens at the weekend they needed litter and managed to get that also. They are Arthur and Elsie 10 weeks siblings abandoned. In good health but timid. Not yet introduced them to Lucy dog and tri paw Albert.

I have visions of fun times ahead . . . when the two kittens discover that dreadlocks are good playthings.  ;)  :D
Title: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: d2d4j on March 24, 2020, 06:56:01 PM
Hi

Has anyone received a text from uk gov telling you to stay at home

Funny to be honest, as I fall into the key worker sector so do have to travel a little

Congrats guis3, our last remaining cat is very old, in palliative care but keeps bouncing back

Many thanks

John
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on March 24, 2020, 07:18:20 PM
Hope everyone is ok.

The guy who delivers my medication turned up today with a mask on, telling me he will carry on as long as he can and he is sorry if he stops, I told him he is a hero and not to worry if he stops.  He is in his 60s as well.

Also register here if you need the help.

https://www.gov.uk/coronavirus-extremely-vulnerable
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Bowdon on March 24, 2020, 08:40:38 PM
That's a good link @Chrysalis

The Ocado delivery turned up and everything was there.

Standing about 2 metres I asked him how work was. He said they are extremely busy. But its gradually peaking off.

Got to give a heroes credit to all these delivery peoples for foods, medications/NHS and any other essentials.

They are life savers for many people.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: tickmike on March 24, 2020, 09:11:30 PM
Some bin men have seen a 50% rise in re-cycled food waste in the past week  :o some of it not even opened.   >:(

 A Lorry driver who delivers to supermarkets is finding the selfish car drivers are parking in the designated area for delivery lorries so he could not get in to deliver the much wanted items, after no one came out after a tannoy  announcement asking to move there cars, also some people were coming up to him to find out what he was delivering and giving him a lot of flack .
He could do no more but to take his full load away to the distribution centre, off load it and take another ordered load to another supermarket.    :(

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: roseway on March 24, 2020, 10:33:45 PM
Has anyone received a text from uk gov telling you to stay at home

Yes, I got it. I think the intention is to send this to everybody with a mobile phone. The link in the message takes you to the government instruction from yesterday. It's not special for those who receive it. The truly vulnerable have been (or are being) written to.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: g3uiss on March 24, 2020, 10:40:57 PM
No text to me, but my wife had one and a couple of colleagues. As said, it’s a general reiterating gov advice. I have a relative who got the stay in for 12 weeks shielding one
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 24, 2020, 10:56:37 PM
I got the text.  My understanding is they’re not really coming directly from Govt; the Govt have simply asked all networks to send it to all their own subscribers.

Possibly just a PR stunt.   I’m not sure I approve, as it may encourage people to think it’s OK to open links in unsolicited text messages, as long as they ‘come from the Govt’. :-\
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Browni on March 24, 2020, 10:57:06 PM
Has anyone received a text from uk gov telling you to stay at home
Yep, here it is

GOV.UK ALERT
CORONAVIRUS
New rules in force now: you must stay at home. More info and exemptions at gov.uk/coronavirus
Stay at home. Protect the NHS. Save lives
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: burakkucat on March 24, 2020, 11:03:35 PM
Are those messages being sent out by the various service providers, on behalf of the Government? I presume that is the case . . . unless it is being done by GCHQ.  :-X
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 24, 2020, 11:07:09 PM
Explained here...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52017451
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: burakkucat on March 25, 2020, 12:01:24 AM
Explained here...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52017451

Do we believe everything that emanates from the BBC?  :-X  (Rhetorical question.)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 25, 2020, 01:39:59 AM
Hello Arthur and Elsie.  ;D  (Elsie was my mum’s name and Arthur my dad’s first name, but he always only ever used his middle name for some reason.)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: g3uiss on March 25, 2020, 09:07:15 AM
They will say hello when I can get them still enough for a picture  ::)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 25, 2020, 10:39:24 AM
MOT exemptions

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/vehicle-owners-to-be-granted-mot-exemption-in-battle-against-coronavirus

We had one of ours serviced & MOT’d last week.  Good to get it done and to have confidence it is safe, but one of the very few compromises to our household isolation.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on March 25, 2020, 01:37:23 PM
Asda have opened up delivery slots and also added a queue to their website, I managed to get 3 orders in, first one next week.

Apparently iceland have opened up slots also.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Bowdon on March 25, 2020, 02:20:19 PM
I’m not sure I approve, as it may encourage people to think it’s OK to open links in unsolicited text messages, as long as they ‘come from the Govt’. :-\

The first thing I did was think it was some spam/phishing attempt. I'm not sure why they need to put a link in the text.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 25, 2020, 08:56:31 PM
The first thing I did was think it was some spam/phishing attempt. I'm not sure why they need to put a link in the text.

Apparently my mums phone marked it as SPAM.  :no:
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: g3uiss on March 25, 2020, 10:00:27 PM
Got mine today. Seems Vodafone a bit behind. Seems EE we’re first of the starting block. However the message is the  same of course giving concern over the source for the link.

On a side note, I’m really saddened by the fact criminals are using this as an opportunity, and on line scams are apparently on the increase.

I noted to day MS has put some restrictions on video on “Teams” suggesting they are getting some pressure on their infrastructure. That said it’s a very good WFH solution, had several multi conference calls with adequate success.

Keep safe all

Tony
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 25, 2020, 11:54:54 PM
I’ve noticed over the past week pretty much a total cessation of the usual scam calls about computer viruses, broadband faults, Amazon Prime, and HMRC investigations.

Sadly I suspect, the call centres are simply retraining all their staff for Coronavirus scams. :(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: kitz on March 26, 2020, 01:46:54 AM
We gave a home to 2 Kittens at the weekend they needed litter and managed to get that also. They are Arthur and Elsie 10 weeks siblings abandoned. In good health but timid. Not yet introduced them to Lucy dog and tri paw Albert.

Congratulations on your new additions  ^-^
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: kitz on March 26, 2020, 03:22:49 AM
Asda have opened up delivery slots and also added a queue to their website, I managed to get 3 orders in, first one next week.


Thank you.  Thank you.

Yesterday they had nothing for all the open calendar (end Apr).   I just checked and managed to get one for next week. 
By the time I placed my order it was 2am, but I noticed all the open slots were filling fast so I started stacking orders and got one for the following week and did that too...  then I got to the checkout and it asked me that as an annual pass holder would I like to make this date and time a recurring weekly slot  YES!  
I'm dog tired and aimed to be in bed before midnight.. but this took priority.   

However I'm not sure if I understand this bit   ???

Quote
You have booked a recurring slot:

Thu Apr 16 2020

10:00AM -11:00AM -Every 1 week until Friday, 27th March 2020

Order by: 12am, Tuesday, 14th April 2020
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: kitz on March 26, 2020, 03:34:11 AM
Got mine today. Seems Vodafone a bit behind. Seems EE we’re first of the starting block. However the message is the  same of course giving concern over the source for the link.

I'm with vodafone and mine came through 24th March @ 16:42
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 26, 2020, 06:26:55 AM
Quote
Update from Sainsbury's Chief Executive Mike Coupe

Dear Customer,
I have written to you regularly over the past few weeks as we continue to change how we work in line with Government advice and in response to your feedback. Changes we've made already, including limiting the number of items customers can buy and creating priority shopping times for NHS workers and for elderly and vulnerable customers, are all working well.
I am writing today to tell you what we are doing to keep you and our colleagues safe in our stores and what we are doing to get food to those that need it the most.
Keeping you and our colleagues safe
Starting today, we will limit the number of people allowed in our stores and at our ATMs at any one time. We are putting queuing systems in place outside stores and will ask everyone to please queue at a safe distance of 2 metres apart. Since we put limits on the number of items people could buy, food and other essential items are on shelves for longer each day so please arrive throughout the day to avoid long queues forming in the morning. We will be reminding people in stores to keep a safe distance from other customers and from our colleagues. Customers buying petrol will be asked to pay at the pump where they can.
We are reducing the number of checkouts we open in supermarkets, convenience stores and petrol filling stations to help our colleagues and customers keep a safe distance from each other. We are also introducing safety screens at every manned checkout to help keep our colleagues safe when serving customers. We are regularly sanitising all customer areas of our stores including chip and pin machines, baskets and trolleys.
Please pay by card at the till if you can. If you are unable to pay by card and want to pay by cash, please use our self scan tills which will stay open for cash payments. Many customers are now using our SmartShop app on their own devices when shopping in our stores. This means you can scan your own shopping as you go round the store, put food and other essential items straight into your own bags and pay for your groceries at a special till before leaving. Which means less interaction with other customers and colleagues and less time queuing to pay.
Elderly and vulnerable customers
Many of you have written to me to tell me you are elderly or vulnerable and are struggling to book online delivery slots. We are doing our absolute best to offer online delivery slots to elderly, disabled and vulnerable customers. These customers have priority over all slots. Our customer Careline has been inundated with requests from elderly and vulnerable customers – we have had one year's worth of contacts in two weeks.
We have proactively contacted 270,000 customers who had already given us information that meant we could identify them as being in these groups. Our customer Careline is working at full capacity to help other customers within these groups and we are able to give an additional 8,000 customers a day access to delivery slots over the phone. We have already booked in slots for 115,000 elderly, disabled and vulnerable customers this week and this number is growing every day.
We will receive the government database this week which tells us which people in England the government considers to be most vulnerable. Where these people are already registered with us, we will start to write to them next week to offer them a delivery slot. We are also working hard to secure details for vulnerable people living in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
I apologise to our regular online customers, who I know are feeling very frustrated at not being able to book slots. Please bear with us and I hope you can understand why we feel the need to prioritise elderly and vulnerable customers at the moment.
Communities working together
And this brings me onto my final request. We really are doing our best to manage a very difficult situation. Demand for online grocery delivery is higher now than it has ever been. We are working hard to increase our online capacity and we are adding more slots in every day. But it is not possible for us to create enough slots to meet the current level of demand.
We are seeing communities come together to work on this issue. We know that many people who are able to come into a store to shop are also shopping for others who can't access food online or get to a shop. We want to encourage and support this. If everyone who shops in store also shops for a person who is less able, it will go a long way towards getting food to everyone who needs it.
Our teams are also working with national and local government and a range of charities to see how we can best help food banks and other community groups. I'll update you soon on what we are doing in this area.
Lastly - thank you for all the support that you are giving our colleagues. As we do everything we can to feed the nation, your kind comments make a huge difference.
Best wishes

Mike
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: jelv on March 26, 2020, 10:01:38 AM
I noted to day MS has put some restrictions on video on “Teams” suggesting they are getting some pressure on their infrastructure. That said it’s a very good WFH solution, had several multi conference calls with adequate success.

It's going to be interesting to see how things have changed after all this is over. Will a lot more people find that Teams, video conferencing and other ways of doing things remotely is actually a far more efficient way of doing things and so business travel will be a lot less? Will they realise that HS2 is a huge waste of public money when a businessman can get from London to Manchester for a face to face meeting in about 10ns?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 26, 2020, 11:09:51 AM
It's going to be interesting to see how things have changed after all this is over. Will a lot more people find that Teams, video conferencing and other ways of doing things remotely is actually a far more efficient way of doing things and so business travel will be a lot less? Will they realise that HS2 is a huge waste of public money when a businessman can get from London to Manchester for a face to face meeting in about 10ns?

I have always had a little personal theory that as society evolves, people’s memories get longer.   By that I mean, within of few years of the 1918 pandemic we had the roaring twenties.  People seemed to have moved on.

This time I think it might be different.   I suspect we’ll remain conscious of the benefits of social distancing for years to come.   Heck I’ll think, if it can stop me getting Covid-19 this year, it might stop me catching a cold next year, which would seem great.  I’ll be deeply suspicious whenever anybody sneezes or coughs anywhere near me, and handshaking may vanish entirely.

And I may well find myself thinking twice before embarking on a cramped public transport in future, be it an economy flight or HS2.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 26, 2020, 05:09:26 PM
Quote
We know that many people who are able to come into a store to shop are also shopping for others who can't access food online or get to a shop. We want to encourage and support this. If everyone who shops in store also shops for a person who is less able, it will go a long way towards getting food to everyone who needs it.

Meanwhile, the local Coop idiots are preventing exactly this by limiting the number of items that one person can buy. My neighbours are helping getting stuff for other neighbours. Mrs Weaver’s car needs a new battery and I haven’t managed to persuade her to get another one ordered yet. Local garage is shut which is a nightmare but she could presumably order one on the web - I’ve found excellent suppliers, as long as they can deliver and aren’t prejudiced against Skye or the whole Highlands as some moronic suppliers are. Anyway she is off the road till she can scrounge a jumpstart from a neighbour. Anyway, neighbours have fetched supplies for us, medicines and food. Sainsbury’s are going the right way and the Coop the wrong way.

They need to massively increase the amount of online deliveries including order on web+collect-at-store. This will prevent users going into the stores which are very harmful centres for infection. Even just increasing the latter will mean people go to but not into the stores.

It’s no good having garages shut. What happens when key workers’ vehicles need repair ? What happens when ambulances need repair? They need to rethink the guidelines for garages, possible reverse the guidance selectively.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: 4candles on March 26, 2020, 05:32:41 PM
If your MOT is due soon, there's good news.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-mots-for-cars-vans-and-motorcycles-due-from-30-march-2020
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 26, 2020, 06:25:00 PM
Mrs Weaver orders a lot of food and supplies on an auto-repeating order from Amazon if I have understood correctly, you don’t even have to do anything, it’s not one-click but just zero-click. If I have got this right that could be a good tip for those of us struggling with supermarkets’ pathetically inadequate home delivery systems.

Hopefully the supermarkets will get a kick up the backside and scale their home deliveries up fast. And hopefully this will be a permanent change too.

The government needs to reform its functions like in 1939, to war time roles. We need a minister of supply, minster of COVID-19, minister of food and especially a minister of bog roll  ;D

They also need to get volunteers doing deliveries and volunteers helping the supply chain. Get retired food and logistics workers to un-retired and come back.

Someone I know works for British Rail or whatever on earth it’s called nowadays. She has been reorganising goods trains to take longer trains so they can haul more stuff. It is I think in some way related to the current crisis, perhaps related to lack of lorry drivers. So they are wanting her to go in to work otherwise the uk transport system breaks down.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 26, 2020, 06:36:15 PM
Talking of car batteries reminds me.  If we continue to be successful in self-isolating and not going out at all, I don’t think we’ll be jailed for taking the cars out for a short drive once every two weeks or so.

Should avoid the batteries going flat in case they are suddenly required and also avoid other probs too, from rusty brake discs to cobwebs in the carburettors.

Yes I know there’s no carburettors any more, I just enjoyed saying that. :D
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: 4candles on March 26, 2020, 06:49:30 PM
Virtually every organisation I've ever had dealings with are suddenly emailing me expressing their undying concern for my welfare.
Except Amazon.   :hmm:

I've got this earworm now... 


Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 26, 2020, 07:32:28 PM
Finally some good news this afternoon for the self employed who have zero income now. But we have to wait until June before we can get any money and then eat. God only knows what the government think people who are broke now and can not afford to eat are supposed to do; can’t pay their rent, mortgage, fuel bills. Janet says the government should just give everyone a fixed lump of cash right now, no questions asked so no assessment and admin bureaucracy required. People can then eat tomorrow.

Tory fat cat thinking, everyone has huge credit cards and can just live off those for four months. Like my wife’s 93 year old mum who’s never even had a credit card. And lots of people I know who could never get one.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 26, 2020, 08:07:25 PM
Anybody else been out to applaud at 8?

I waited patiently by the garden fence just before 8.   Eerie silence.  Then the clapping started, echoing through the village.  I couldn’t see where it was coming from as everybody was in their gardens, but glad I joined in. :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 26, 2020, 08:15:22 PM
There's going to be loads of people who don't need any financial help as they have plenty of money, I'd rather they didn't get any money dished out to them as they don't need it, and that money went to people who really do need it, like my brother who's in a financial mess partly due to his own constant bad decisions, but now made much worse because as a self employed painter and decorator on immunosuppressants he can't work.

It’s no good having garages shut. What happens when key workers’ vehicles need repair ? What happens when ambulances need repair? They need to rethink the guidelines for garages, possible reverse the guidance selectively.

Garage's are classed as essential, hence why I'm still at work because my boss won't shut up shop, I class only one of our customers as essential. That customer owns one truck, runs a farm and several farm shops, all our other customers are not related with the food industry at all. There's normally three of us in the workshop, but one is 68 so I sent him home Monday, he has holiday to use up before the end of the month so I told him to take. Today my boss sent the other fitter out on a house removal, putting him at higher risk (he has mild asthma) than in the workshop. There was other complications with the job/crew which also put him at risk, then I was asked to call the 68 year old back in, which I refused to do. Bosses answer was that he's under 70 so its fine! Perhaps Weavers local garage is run by someone who has an underlying health issue, or has just decided that it's so quiet they've shut up shop.

Yes we we're out clapping, I could hear from the surrounding streets too.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: d2d4j on March 26, 2020, 08:36:15 PM
Hi

I hope everyone is well and keeping safe

I would be careful over deciding which vehicles should receive service from garages etc...

I had to have some new tyres fitted and the garage had a similar view ronski. However they changed their mind when they found out why I was still working/travelling, been classed as a key worker and agreed not all vehicles gives any clue as their usage.

Many thanks

John
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 26, 2020, 08:51:07 PM
Not just Ronski and I, then.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-52054745/clap-for-our-carers-national-applause-for-coronavirus-health-workers

I’ve no idea who hear me, other than the others out clapping. But it’d be nice to think that everybody involved in healthcare, wherever they were, whatever town city or village they might have been passing through, would have heard some applause. :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: jelv on March 26, 2020, 10:12:21 PM
This is brilliant!

https://www.facebook.com/david.giles.3745/videos/10157717400466321/
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 27, 2020, 01:51:20 AM
On NHS night, at 8pm, Janet and George her donkey sang together "You’ll never walk alone" out by the front door of the house.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 27, 2020, 05:55:40 AM
On NHS night, at 8pm, Janet and George her donkey sang together "You’ll never walk alone" out by the front door of the house.

Does George sing in Gaelic?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 27, 2020, 06:22:16 AM
I would be careful over deciding which vehicles should receive service from garages etc...

We have a very small regular customer base (and I know pretty well what they all do), we don't do cars, and it's extremely rare we get new customers, mainly due to our location, the workshop is not the companies main source of income although they would like it to earn more. One fitter is 68, one has asthma, and then there's me running the workshop and fitting as well.

If we did close then customers would be able to get hold of me presuming I'm well if required, if not there are plenty of other options nearby hence also the lack of new business.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: jelv on March 27, 2020, 01:54:29 PM
Many retail outlets have introduced queuing systems - but this is the first time I've seen anything like this. Wickes have a queue - for their website!

https://www.wickes.co.uk
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 27, 2020, 02:19:35 PM
Many retail outlets have introduced queuing systems - but this is the first time I've seen anything like this. Wickes have a queue - for their website!

https://www.wickes.co.uk

My mum has just been stuck in a queue for the Ocado website.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: roseway on March 27, 2020, 02:26:13 PM
In the case of Wickes I guess that isn't too surprising. They've no doubt got an enormous increase in online orders from trades people and DIY'ers who would normally go to the store.

Actually, when the panic buying was at its height, Waitrose had a queuing system too.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 27, 2020, 02:53:36 PM
I ordered some items for delivery from Screwfix last week.  The website was working well, the items I wanted were in stock, and my order was accepted.

Then after 10 minutes I received a phone call to say the items were out of stock after all.  :(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 27, 2020, 07:22:22 PM
Just watching the new's, and they mentioned milkmen, seems they still exist and are doing a roaring trade recently, so if you have a local milkman it would be worth contacting them as they do more than just milk.

https://www.milkandmore.co.uk/ Seems they've stopped accepting new customers, but other firms will be out there.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 27, 2020, 07:33:07 PM
@7LM Janet knows lots of Gaelic songs (given a lyric sheet as an aide-memoire, as she can never remember words to anything), but she has never taught George any. Gilbert never sings nor brays. He makes a sort of funny woofling noise when he wants something though. Janet only speaks to the donkeys in English so they have never picked up any Gaelic. The two donkeys were not born around here, they are from either Wales or England - I’ll have to check with Janet - they had an enormous journey up here in a special horsebox van anyway
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 27, 2020, 10:26:22 PM
I’ve another Waitrose slot booked, and just been updating the basket.

I wanted carrots.  It seemed decent to just buy what I needed, which was 3 single carrots.   No, it wouldn’t let me, as each carrot counts as one item and together with other items in my basket that took me over my quota for fresh veg.   :'(

So I’ve now got a whole bag of carrots coming, when I just wanted 3, as a bag is just one item.   They won’t go to waste, but how bonkers is that?   ???
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 27, 2020, 11:38:22 PM
Does it only allow three veg items or did you have other things in the basket too?

Because considering you're supposed to eat five a day, how does that work?  Are they trying to screw everyone immune system so were more likely to get the virus?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 28, 2020, 12:29:05 AM
I had other stuff, but I think the veg limit was six items total.   Which, for example, could be six individual vegetables, say, four carrots and two parsnips.  Or it can be two huge sacks of carrots, two huge sacks of parsnips, plus another two sacks of potatoes, as long as it adds up to six.

Same with dairy.  You can have six items in total, but that can be six small cartons of milk or six giant catering-size cartons, as long as it’s just six.

Utterly stupid. :'(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 28, 2020, 10:03:10 AM
I see now Waitrose are only accepting new orders from those listed by govt as vulnerable or elderly.  I think others supermarkets are under pressure to follow suit.

It seems to me that this is flawed, since you can catch Covid-19 without being on any such govt list.   If not on the list and you want to eat while you are sick, since you can’t order online, there’d be a very strong temptation (avoidance of starvation) to go out shopping thereby spreading the virus.

 :o
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 28, 2020, 01:25:52 PM
Do you think there has been a surge of activity in previous weeks in buying of hardware and installation of networking upgrades by corporates in order to get ready for homeworking? Buying hardware to support massive numbers of VPN connections coming in (or not and just using ostrich technology so users have a nightmare experience). Buying laptops for homeworkers so they are properly secured rather than having homeworkers use their own boxes that are crawling with nasties and have children accessing them and snooping through mummy’s work or deleting half of it. Setting up secured lans at home for homeworkers similarly so they won’t be using their own lans which have infants and even neighbours on them. Ordering business class fast internet access links for home users so they have decent ISPs that can be trusted and also done in order that employer pays the ISP bills. Also maybe ordering video conferencing hardware for employees to have at home, be it low end or high end.

Could be a boom in orders for the industry. But maybe corporates were ostriches, clueless, overwhelmed or left it way too late. If they did not act early they have now missed the deadline for FTTP installations because of Openreach cutting off all new orders this week. The other problem is that the supply chain for some hardware may have failed some while ago and success in getting orders fulfilled may be patchy depending on supplier and on level of stock already manufactured.

This is the problem: "key workers" are not just the obvious, eg nhs staff, but also suppliers. Ambulances need tyres for example, so tyre manufacturers could become ‘key’, ie critical, too. Since our local garage is shut, what are the local ambulances to do if they need attention? Answer: a 170 mile [!] five hour journey to Inverness and an unforgivable waste of time. Assuming that there is even a garage open there. Or alternative answer: kick the local garage up the arse to cause them to come to their senses and make an exception in this case. But then of course the local garage might not be able to get parts for an ambulance as suppliers have failed.

It seems to me that government needs to act very very early in a situation such as this, before supply chains fail because of lack of manpower. If they leave it too late then they run out of supply availability and run out of fit humans to run government and run critical services. Members of the government are now symptomatic for COVID-19 infection and this damages government’s capabilities at a time when there’s a huge wartime-like critical workload.

I suspect our government should have acted a lot earlier, but what do I know. Going very early is difficult because people will not take it seriously, not seeing the need, and so tend to be rebellious, ignoring the measures.

Remember Y2K, when some people said there was never any problem, but in fact the badness never happened only because people including me put in work checking for and fixing bugs. I was a member of a small team back then in 1997 asked to check all the software we were producing, which I did by writing a scanner tool which greped all the source code (in C and C++) to find potential bugs/areas of interest and then I inspected areas around lines of code discovered. I found nothing to even look at in my designated area of code which was comms code; hardly surprising as such code never deals with textual ascii decimal dates anyway. (I’m not talking about software involving protocols above L4 - eg email, http - which might parse ascii decimal dates but which won’t have a problem because of the particular nature of that code. But anyway, doing a good job means people will say there never was any problem that needed urgent attention in the first place.

One thing however is that preventive/mitigating measures that involve placing massive orders with suppliers or require large amounts of manpower will be successful still, if they’re early enough, before everything starts to fall apart because of reduced workforce and even worse supplier problems in eg China.



I’m very sorry to have to report that someone I know is in hospital with presumed COVID-19; she was very poorly at home. She’s in hospital in Staffordshire where if I have understood correctly there’s now one designated hospital for all COVID-19 cases in that area. No visitors allowed, which is only sensible but horrible for the patient. Haven’t heard any reports from the hospital. I am extremely concerned about her as she is elderly.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 28, 2020, 01:46:49 PM
Weaver, Isle of Sky tyres is still open https://www.isleofskyetyres.co.uk/ they don't just do tyres, they offer full servicing (batteries as well!) and Mot's. Perhaps a bit of googling before chastising some local garage owner who's decided to shut for whatever reason. Oh, and they are 5.1 miles from your home.

There's several others nearby too, but they either don't have a website or state they open for business, the one above does. And I'm 100% positive the ambulance service will have suitable services in place for maintenance and tyres.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 28, 2020, 02:00:40 PM
I’m sure there is a good reason why our local garage shut and if he wanted to protect his workforce then that is very admirable. There was no intention to express hatred in my post; so mea culpa and much love to the garage, who is suffering we have to remember.

Good tip about that url, thanks. In fact I did some googling already and a battery might be here today, ordered from a supplier on the web who does free delivery and has a car model selector battery lookup thing too. The last battery we bought was clearly rubbish, only lasted a couple of years; buying not from a dealer up here may mean they sell you the cheapest crappiest one possible because people are all broke and so it is assumed they want the cheapest not a good one, which is a complete false economy anyway and actually backfires on you. If the web supplier turns out to be good then we will keep using them or get batteries etc from the main dealer so they are bound to be good quality and beefy enough for Janet's Land Rover Disco.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 28, 2020, 04:22:41 PM
Off topic. No need to pay way over the top for batteries from a main dealer, just need to buy well known brand names, most batteries have two year warranties, better one's three or you can even get some Bosch one's with five year warranties.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 28, 2020, 04:39:55 PM
Janet had a Tesco website shopping basket, order in progress, but she has decided to cancel it as neighbours report that when the order arrives most of it is missing or inadequate replacements may be present. This is together with annoying restrictions on amount of purchases. I’m wondering if Tesco’s supply chain is falling apart; especially a problem if international deliveries are required and stuff is supposed to come from foreign countries in a worse state than we are.

I don’t know how much stuff is to be seen on the shelves of the Tescos shops in the Highlands - nearest on the east coast, ~80 miles and 5 hr away [!]. Maybe it’s not so bad in the shops still. Some people are of the opinion that the problem is simply that their home delivery system (or in our case nearly-home, local-to-us collection point) is overwhelmed. But I think it could be deeper than that, a general lack of supply, as the old refrain about hoarding can only be true for so long; after a while the hoarders will have got all the stuff they want, or will have run out of money, or will have been frustrated finally by order quantity restrictions. Looking at the shelves will go some way towards an answer.

Janet said she though she couldn’t even get flour from Tesco’s. Luckily she still has some. She’s making bread this afternoon. I love her home-made bread and she’s finding that a valuable way to feed us if there’s no (nasty) bread in the Coop. Janet is feeding neighbours with eggs every day. She gives surplus eggs to the local food bank. Hope we can continue to get hen food.

Donkeys are well supplied as we have a mountain of donkey food (straw for their main food, and then chaff and treats), and next month the first grass will start to appear. Grass is very late here due to the altitude, two weeks later than down low in the village at sea level, and you see a wave of green every year rising up the hillside from sea level towards us. Presumably the northern latitude makes spring late too? Anyway in a month or so donkeys will be eating grass all the time, so only daily treats required. They will go bonkers if they don’t get their daily treats of chaff on time; kicking the house’s glass front door  :o and George braying for Janet to come out. Where are you - it’s getting late ? They’re not hungry as they have stray to eat constantly in their stable; it’s just that they have a routine and the crave their tasty donkey treats plus the dose of affection that they get daily.

The hens will be able to feed themselves in the field a little bit but are always totally reliant on lots of expensive hen food; they’re producing an egg a day so that requires a huge amount of food over day. They are now sleeping in the tack room which is part of the donkey stable and any predator has to get past the donkeys first; that’s the only way in. The donkeys are superb security guards. Reminds me of llamas guarding sheep in their field and running predators off. I’m told they’re so effective that it’s a reason to get a llama even if only as a policeman.

I suspect we might look into ordering more food from Amazon; we already have standing orders, automatic monthly deliveries of various food and non-food products if I remember what Janet said. That was all for Janet’s tourist accommodation business.

Janet’s business has closed down so we have nothing to live on until the end of June. I don’t know what the government thinks self employed people are supposed to do to allow them to eat and pay the rent or mortgage, and pay energy bills. You can sign on but that’s ridiculously inadequate. I’ve probably said, before it would be good if the govt would just give everyone a lump of cash right now to keep people going and then the govt can just deduct that from the July payment if they want.

At least Janet is less tired because she is getting a lie-in in the morning not having to get up to cook guests’ breakfasts after being woken up umpteen times in the night when I am asking for help with pain. And without all her usual daily work associated with the business she can do things similar to bread-making for example

I’m not sure what I will do if we get COVID-19. If Janet gets it then I’m done for as she is in poor health anyway so is vulnerable, and I hate to think about her going into hospital, and in any case, I will have no-one left to look after me. If I get it then I wouldn’t want to go into hospital; that would be horrific, so I hope I would have the courage to remain at home and refuse hospitalisation no matter what. And I hope I would not be taken into hospital against my will. That would be game over for me either way I think.

We perhaps should be in total super isolation now but would have to get someone to pick up food and medicines for us. The purchase limit restrictions in the Coop frustrate things when you are buying for a neighbour especially a vulnerable person. There needs to be a way around this at the supermarkets as we want to discourage multiple visits that are required just to get past the well-intended but mindless purchase limit restrictions.

Doctor rang up to speak to Janet. She has sleep apnea and some years ago they gave her some sort of breathing assistance contraption- whatever it’s called, I forget. She couldn’t cope with it though so she returned it to the local hospital. Doctor said using this puts Janet into the super vulnerable category so she would have to super-self-isolate which means no going out shopping and Janet said govt volunteers would have to be bringing us a morsel of food every week! She explained to the doctor that she had returned the kit, so luckily doesn’t fall into this category. I had never heard of such a thing, but then I never watch tv.  I wonder how many people fall into that category now just because they’re ill or in poor health generally, or are simply old. I suspect Janet is more vulnerable than me because she has diabetes amongst a host of other medical conditions. I have CFS and chronic pain syndrome (neuropathic pain) and neurological problems associated with my spine but I don’t know what that implies relating to COVID-19 vulnerability.

Doctor started giving me some drugs for anxiety and depression which luckily also give pain relief for neuropathic pain. Increased one of my drugs a lot and added a new one. The pandemic is not helping much with my anxiety; the other night Janet was listening to Sky News late at night while in bed and the news frightened me so much I asked Janet to listen on headphones. Since Janet gave me some additional drugs the other day, I’m feeling fine now; all anxiety gone. :)

We have been worried about Janet’s 93 year-old mum down in England, in Eccleshall, Staffordshire. Had a long phone call the other night. Last month we were trying to persuade mum to come up and stay here where she would be safer. She said no though; she perhaps didn’t fancy the journey even if we fetched her up in the comfortable Landrover Discovery rather than train or plane, and she wouldn’t want to be away from her many many friends and helpers who form a superb support network for her. Their help is especially valuable as we are so far away. We can only help by for example doing internet orders for her and sorting out administrative and financial things for her as she gets tired, yet has all her marbles- mind as sharp as ever apart from some small amount of nominal aphasia. Mum was going out to the local supermarket on foot a while back, can’t remember if she has still been doing so recently; she has vertigo and other problems and is liable to fall over, so walking to the shop is a really bad idea, never mind COVID-19 exposure.

You might recall I was trying to get Janet to agree to put in a good internet connection at Mum’s place - earlier thread - and give her an iPad suitably customised dedicated and simplified. But I couldn’t sell Janet on the idea for various understandable reasons. Given the current crisis I wish more than ever that we had set this up though. The one problem would have been getting one of her friends - ideally - to do some training on how to use the (simplified, stripped down) iPad. Bring able to do video calls to her would be great. One snag is the lack of upstream bandwidth at this end, only a mere 1.3-1.5 Mbps and a single flow with eg TCP might be much worse as some protocols don’t play nicely with multiple bonded lines where the rtt is weird presumably especially in the case where the links are not all the same speed and my line #3 always has slow upstream for reasons unknown. Mum would have incredibly fast FTTC at her end and her speed would dwarf ours making us the bottleneck by a long way and I can’t see how to fix our upstream. I just think that having video calls with Apple FaceTime or whatever would be very good for cheering everyone up.

Just now, I have two extremely large ex-kittens on my knees and in my lap: the two boys Somhairle and Pangur Bán. Somhairle is now two years old I think, just had his birthday, while Pangur Bán is somewhat younger, by a few months. Definitely now ex-kittens but they don’t know that; still crazy playing, running, jumping out, climbing up the floor-to-ceiling cat pole with platforms on it. Having them sitting on me all the time is an incredibly good cure for anxiety, so I’ve found.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 28, 2020, 04:45:48 PM
Thanks Ronski, good point. The main dealer thing was more about selecting the right product. A friend of ours is a mechanic so we can always ask him. We’re placing our trust in the battery finder function in the supplier’s website this time, which said ‘landrover all models since xx date".
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: 4candles on March 28, 2020, 06:34:52 PM
Earlier this week I ranted about the farce experienced at Waitrose in their supposed "oldies' hour", so in fairness I'm posting to say that today's experience was excellent.
Arrived about 40 mins after opening. No queuing, and not many people in store. Everyone keeping their distance, albeit with a little good natured "trolley ballet moves" when people coming from different directions met at aisle corners.
Plenty of helpful staff, and additional tills opened quickly when needed.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 28, 2020, 06:51:12 PM
Flying the flag for my own favoured brand, not all main dealer parts are rip offs.   Volvo dealers’ parts managers seem to be authorised to give decent discounts, 10-20%, and the only requirement seems to be that they vaguely recognise or, failing that, if you just ask.

A new battery last year for S60 was circa £60, Volvo branded.  I forget which battery manufacturer’s name was on it, but it was the same as original battery that lasted ten years. :)

Except of course, I think the dealerships have all closed for coronavirus.   But I believe Volvo have confirmed that they will still honour new car warranties, if people are unable to get their cars serviced due to the lockdown.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 28, 2020, 07:02:35 PM
Weaver, anyone with a mortgage can get a mortgage holiday, my brother has also arranged for a holiday on his loan payments. He'll pay the minimum off his credit card, and as much off his overdraft as possible, interest on that is effectively 60% although next month it drops to 50%.

7LM Any main dealer can give a discount, us people in the trade get automatic discounts, and they can give additional discounts, but depends on the parts, some get more discount than others.  Most dealers can also request a price match from  the manufacturer. That does sound a very good price for main dealer battery especially if it includes VAT. Battery could well have been a Varta, pretty sure that's what Volvo trucks use, I never really deal with Volvo car's though.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 28, 2020, 07:09:34 PM
Thanks Ronski, I might have heard Janet mention the mortgage holiday thing, but I forgot. I suppose we might as well get one, if you have to ask for one as opposed to getting it automatically. That might save us a bit of money.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 28, 2020, 07:23:12 PM
Battery included VAT. :)

Back to closer to topic, on our authorised afternoon exercise stroll, we sometimes have to dodge cyclists.  I kind of disapprove as, for the same amount of calories, they are covering a far greater distance, potentially spreading infection wider.

But today I saw something better still.  A lady out for exercise, circuiting around the village, on her motorised scooter. ???
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 28, 2020, 07:34:36 PM
Do we think cyclists are spreading infection if they do not stop and stand close to other people? Or they zoom past and let out a perfectly timed cough directed at a close pedestrian they are passing by?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 28, 2020, 07:40:37 PM
You are free to believe what you choose, Weaver. ;)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 28, 2020, 07:50:16 PM
I have no idea - I’m wondering what you and others think though :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 28, 2020, 08:08:09 PM
Well my own belief, as previously hinted, is that the further we travel in pursuit of our daily exercise the greater the risk.   There’s no need to speculate as to specific coughing scenarios, the simple equation is... larger area equates to larger risk.

Until a couple of weeks ago we’d actually been driving out to our favourite woodland, about 5 miles away.   We’d never meet another soul within 200 feet yet alone 2 metres.   But government advice seemed to discourage that in favour of a local walk, so we complied. :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 28, 2020, 08:31:38 PM
I was thinking about the exact physical transmission mechanism, person-to-person but I know nothing.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on March 28, 2020, 10:30:42 PM
Thanks Ronski, I might have heard Janet mention the mortgage holiday thing, but I forgot. I suppose we might as well get one, if you have to ask for one as opposed to getting it automatically. That might save us a bit of money.

In my brothers case it was as simple as filling out an online form, and no they are not automatic, as many can still afford to pay so don't need one.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 29, 2020, 12:21:00 AM
Do we think cyclists are spreading infection if they do not stop and stand close to other people? Or they zoom past and let out a perfectly timed cough directed at a close pedestrian they are passing by?

Funny you should say that, as I was just thinking how I wouldn't want to cycle right now as the deep breathing makes it more risky that I would pick something up from a pedestrian or car driving past with the window open.

So personally I think the cyclist is more at risk than anyone they are passing.  I suppose in theory the cyclist could spread it further, but that would depend on them coughing on a whole lot of people.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: CarlT on March 29, 2020, 04:17:47 PM
Had a trip to see Trevor Noah at the end of this week planned.

Obviously not happening, the gig was cancelled a couple of weeks back, however the hotel cancelling and refunded our booking of their own volition, which is nice, and LNER gave an immediate refund after the website request was made.

I very much hope that when all this is over companies will continue with these kinds of cancellation policies. It's so much more pleasant to not have to spend an age fighting through a retentions team or having to inform who the first person outside of your parents to see you naked was before they'll offer a refund.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 29, 2020, 04:40:37 PM
Talk about good news and bad...

The #1 good news... had a waitrose delivery today.   Confirmation email showed very little missing.   Roast chicken for dinner tonight.  :)

The bad news... as I unpacked the bags, there’s a lot missing.   Not great monetary value, but basically all the fresh veg and bread, presumably that crate was left on the truck.   I’m not going to give them a hard time, might not even mention it.   I’m sure they’re just desperately busy and last thing they need is complaints.

The #2 good news... I opened Tesco.com.   Miraculously, there before my eyes, a few slots available on Wednesday.  These slots have all vanished again, nothing at all left, but not before I got one booked. :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 29, 2020, 07:05:34 PM
Mum was really unimpressed.

Ocado said "we are closing the website for 48 hours, no slots will be available".
Less than 24 hours later, they had opened up slots without warning and they were fully booked by the time she noticed.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Bowdon on March 29, 2020, 07:07:14 PM
Searching for delivery slots seem to be the new online sport  ;D

I got an unexpected slot on Iceland's site the other day, and got it delivered today. It was pretty good, only 4 items missing, which they refunded the money for.

I noticed Iceland is the only one so far I've seen accept Paypal, which made checking out even easier.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 30, 2020, 11:00:26 AM
Home delivery substitutions have their benefits.

A guilty secret of mine is that, for many years, I have indulged in a cup of instant hot chocolate at bed time.   There is only one brand and flavour that I like.   I’d never dream of buy anything else, so was a bit disappointed yesterday to find it had been substituted for the ‘white chocolate’ flavour.  :'(

And guess what, I now know that I quite like that one too. :D
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: CarlT on March 31, 2020, 01:00:14 PM
Just putting this out there for those making xenophobic comments on the origin of this pandemic.

https://twitter.com/samharveyrural/status/1244328444994949124?s=19
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 31, 2020, 01:17:02 PM
Just putting this out there for those making xenophobic comments on the origin of this pandemic.

https://twitter.com/samharveyrural/status/1244328444994949124?s=19

Good idea. :)

It seems to me we have an awful lot for which to be grateful to China.   

In particular imho for demonstrating that social isolation, lockdowns and quarantining can work.   If this had started in pretty much any of the Western economies, without the Chinese role model for us to follow, I find it hard to imagine such drastic government action would have been possible, or acceptable to the western populations.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 31, 2020, 07:45:03 PM
The comments on that tweet make me sick.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: g3uiss on March 31, 2020, 08:46:38 PM
It’s our “blame culture” nothing new, just a new excuse.

I wish I could do more to help others, but locally options seem limited.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 31, 2020, 09:27:38 PM
Talking of helping others, Janet is feeding people with spare eggs. Neighbours have fetched medicines for me and have helped Janet with gardening and with mucking out donkeys.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Bowdon on March 31, 2020, 09:36:20 PM
Sadly the anti-China language as been dripped fed in to the conversation in many countries by people who should know better.

I have a neighbour whos daughters work at the local Asda, so she managed to get me some of Asda's own porridge, which for some reason they don't sell on their own site and is nearly gone immediately off the shelves when they open the store.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 31, 2020, 10:20:48 PM
One thing I’ve been concentrating on is saying a specially sincere ‘thank you’, to all the various delivery people.   Supermarket deliveries obviously, but even just the Postie deserves recognition for carrying on working, imho.

The Parcel Force driver yesterday commented that he’s completely overrun with deliveries yet most people either just take him for granted, or are rude to him if he’s late or if packaging is the slightest bit damaged.   :'(

These guys and gals are what’s keeping us all going right now...
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on March 31, 2020, 10:34:31 PM
Maybe criticism should be directed at the Chinese authorities, who let the grim ‘wet markets’ continue. But that’s not the same as the Chinese people in general.i read a report that said some people in the USA were murdered because they were thought to be Chinese.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 01, 2020, 02:19:22 AM
Seen a tweet showing personel from china arriving to help out the UK, and was people writing abusive tweets. :(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: 4candles on April 01, 2020, 12:43:29 PM
Goats are taking advantage of empty streets in Llandudno.

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: roseway on April 01, 2020, 02:59:51 PM
That brightened my day ;D

 
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 01, 2020, 03:15:49 PM
We have wild goats every day, on the main road at Cinn t-Sàile at the head of Loch Dùthaich. I worry about them getting mixed up with the cars. Those Llandudno goats are beautiful.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: tickmike on April 01, 2020, 03:40:24 PM
That was on the BBC TV news last night.  :D

While we are talking animals, I asked my daughter if she had seen any changes it the primates she looks after in the Zoo and she has noticed the Chimps are very quite and seemed to be missing the public, but the Orangutan seems more happy because he does not like people (few weeks ago because some children were banging on his window he pulled a heavy metal feeding device off the wall and smashed his window  :o ). 
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 01, 2020, 03:44:15 PM
That’s awful if people were hassling him. Need cctv in his enclosure maybe and soundproofed double layer glass window. I absolutely love orang-utans and gorillas. I hope to god primates can’t get COVID-19 from humans.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 01, 2020, 07:19:00 PM
Not sure the goats have much to do with Covid-19, BBC ran a similar story about Llandudno goats a year ago...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47535311
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: 4candles on April 01, 2020, 07:57:42 PM
They do come into the town in bad weather, but on this occasion it seems they're taking advantage because of the deserted streets.
I blame the nanny state.  ;D
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 01, 2020, 08:41:53 PM
I thought perhaps the reporter was just kidding.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 01, 2020, 10:46:50 PM
Two cases in Broadford, Skye. And a couple in the Western Isles too. Janet says aliens came up here, from London even, driving through the night to get here before the lockdown, plus children returning home in a hurry. Janet had group video chat with all her many friends in Heasta using Facebook Messenger, not even going down into the village to meet people. Because we're both done for if Janet gets it.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 01, 2020, 11:20:45 PM
I never understood the sending all the University students home, to me that just means spreading it even further and potentially putting their parents at risk.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: tickmike on April 01, 2020, 11:27:10 PM
  I hope to god primates can’t get COVID-19 from humans.
Yes they can  :(   the virus is 'zoonotic'  That is a disease that can spread from animals to humans and humans to animals.

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 01, 2020, 11:29:14 PM
Oh god. That must have implications for the keepers?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 01, 2020, 11:49:25 PM
Yes they can  :(   the virus is 'zoonotic'  That is a disease that can spread from animals to humans and humans to animals.

There seems to be a lot of debate over exactly how and what though.

For example I've seen it mentions that you can pass it to cats, but it doesn't affect them and they can't pass it back to humans.

Obviously primates is a different thing and far more likely you can.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 01, 2020, 11:56:17 PM
That’s not what zoonotic means.   But can I very very strongly suggest we leave the science to experts?

I am simply not interested in anything that Guardian columnists or BBC newsreaders have to say, or ‘shadow ministers’, or ‘former secretaries’ have to say, or even what a prime minister has to say, unless they have a suitable degree from a serious university, and recent real-world work experience in the field of epidemiology.

The only scientific models I have been following are those of Imperial College, who’s teams seem to have good credibility.  Google will find useful information and data.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 02, 2020, 02:33:08 AM
The CDC website on Zoonotic diseases is hilarious, they've obviously never had pets.

Quote
Thankfully, there are things you can do to protect yourself and your family from zoonotic diseases.

Prevent bites from mosquitoes, ticks, and fleas.

Avoid bites and scratches from animals.

Yeah, good luck with that. :lol: :lol:

On the topic though, I notice none of our neighbours seem to be concerned that their cats could infect them if someone infected coughs on their fur (plus theres some people nearby who love to spit on everything that I cat could easily walk in or brush on their fur).

I don't know anyone who is particularly careful to wash after coming into contact with their outdoor cat.  ???

Fortunately our youngest cat has been raised as an indoor cat and our eldest has issues so doesn't go out any more either.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 02, 2020, 10:24:26 AM
This page from Office of National Statistics was linked from a BBC article earlier in the week; a summary of recent England/Wales deaths overall, and from Covid-19, compared with data from a five year average, which I personally find interesting.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending20march2020

I stress ‘interesting’ as that’s all it is.     I’d not suggest we start drawing any conclusions from things like this, unless we happen to be trained scientists.     But I do wish the BBC news reports would focus more on the huge amount of actual scientific data that is being produced, rather than just banging on about their traditional anti-government agenda (which seems to be their main focus no matter which party is in power).

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: tickmike on April 02, 2020, 10:47:45 AM
That’s not what zoonotic means.   But can I very very strongly suggest we leave the science to experts?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoonosis

My daughter has a PHD in the subject.  :)

Most zoo's take 'Bio security' very seriously .
Even if someone has a cold let alone this nasty virus. 
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 02, 2020, 12:03:44 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoonosis

My daughter has a PHD in the subject.  :)

Most zoo's take 'Bio security' very seriously .
Even if someone has a cold let alone this nasty virus.

You said (my emphasis)

 
Yes they can  :(   the virus is 'zoonotic'  That is a disease that can spread from animals to humans and humans to animals.

Wikipedia (your link) says
Quote
A zoonosis (plural zoonoses, or zoonotic diseases) is an infectious disease caused by bacteria, viruses, or parasites that spread from non-human animals (usually vertebrates) to humans.

... no mention of reverse transfer (humans to animals) in the common usage.

I have seen convincing (to me, as a layman) evidence that COVID-19 made a one-off zoonotic leap from animals to humans.  I have seen no such convincing evidence that the human version of the virus has made another leap back into animals.  That may be because I encountered the evidence and did not understand it, or the evidence has not surfaced yet, or because no such evidence exists.   But whichever of there, I'd leave it to the scientists to decide the truth and reach some consensus, before declaring it as a 'fact' on a chat forum.

CDC say (page last reviewed on 28th March)
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/faq.html/#animals
Quote
There is no reason at this time to think that any animals, including pets, in the United States might be a source of infection with this new coronavirus that causes COVID-19. To date, CDC has not received any reports of pets or other animals becoming sick with COVID-19 in the United States.

Same page also acknowledges. however
Quote
You should restrict contact with pets and other animals while you are sick with COVID-19, just like you would around other people. Although there have not been reports of pets or other animals becoming sick with COVID-19, it is still recommended that people sick with COVID-19 limit contact with animals until more information is known about the new coronavirus.

I do avoid patting my neighbour's friendly dog.  But that is simply because he (the neighbour, not the dog) is in the 'extremely vulnerable' category and I don't want to touch anything that he may touch soon afterwards... dogs included. :)

edit: added link to CDC
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 02, 2020, 05:37:35 PM
[Totally off-topic: That’s an amazingly long pathname with long filenames in it from that .gov.uk website. When I was writing some code 15 years ago to generate a website, I considered writing a module that generated file names for pages so that urls could be kept short and so that there could be no breakage of links if web pages were renamed (because the filenames could never be allowed to change). Filenames would be generated and stored in a database so that uniqueness could be guaranteed; you looked up filenames and ‘incremented’ a name somehow as required using some tricky tbs code that I was still working on when I became ill and got distracted from the project.]
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 02, 2020, 07:11:21 PM
Apols for the long URL, blame the government.

I could have used a hyperlink but actually I disapprove of hyperlinks, so I rarely use them. I think people should be encouraged to look at a URL in plain text, before deciding whether to visit.

If I had my way html hyperlinks would be uninvented banned, from all websites, everywhere.  But don’t worry, I am aware that as is so often the case, I am in a tiny minority.   :D
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 02, 2020, 08:20:22 PM
No need to apologise, I wasn’t complaining, just amazed by that webserver. Such long names are a small drag on performance where there are a lot of them. I shortened all of my pathnames to the absolute minimum in the project mentioned earlier.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 02, 2020, 11:38:19 PM
Apols for the long URL, blame the government.

I could have used a hyperlink but actually I disapprove of hyperlinks, so I rarely use them. I think people should be encouraged to look at a URL in plain text, before deciding whether to visit.

If I had my way html hyperlinks would be uninvented banned, from all websites, everywhere.  But don’t worry, I am aware that as is so often the case, I am in a tiny minority.   :D

The thing is though, when they were inventing you could SEE where it was going to take you before clicking it, and trust that its being reported accurately.

Thank Javascript for making it so we can't 100% trust that the destination is where it says its going to be, and touch devices for taking away the ability to easily view the destination of a link.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 03, 2020, 08:57:08 AM
How to build a hospital...

https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/download?ac=3180222

Ps: above was found on BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52125059

Quote
Mr Hepburn said his team has drawn up an instruction manual to share with other countries taking on similar emergency projects - and people in Australia and Canada have already contacted them.

Turns out the link only works once per device, maybe paywalled by a browser cookie.   Pity.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on April 03, 2020, 10:17:10 AM
Quote
Update from Sainsbury's Chief Executive Mike Coupe
Dear Ron,

I’ve written to you regularly over the past few weeks as we adapt the way we work to keep our shelves full while keeping you and our colleagues safe. We continue to make changes in line with government guidelines and in response to feedback from you and our colleagues. I am writing today to tell you about measures we are taking to protect our customers and colleagues and to update you on our product availability and on how we continue to support our elderly and vulnerable customers.

Keeping our customers and colleagues safe

Keeping you and our colleagues safe is our number one priority. This week we have brought in further measures to help you keep a safe distance from other customers and from our colleagues when you are visiting our stores.

We have queuing systems in place outside stores and ask you to please queue at a safe distance of two metres apart. Please also try to keep a safe distance from other customers and from our colleagues when you are doing your shop. We have placed clear markings on shop floors to help you know what a safe distance is.

From today, we are asking everyone to please only send one adult per household to our shops. This helps us keep people a safe distance apart and also helps to reduce queues to get into stores. Our store teams will be asking groups with more than one adult to choose one adult to shop and will ask other adults to wait. Children are of course welcome if they are not able to stay at home.

To help keep our colleagues safe while serving customers, we now have screens at most manned checkouts. In the next few days we will have finished installing the screens across all manned checkouts in every supermarket, convenience store and Argos collection point.

Feeding the nation

We have been working hard with our suppliers to improve our product availability. Most people are now just buying what they need for themselves and their families. This means we now often have stock on the shelves all day and at the end of the day.

People have been queuing to get into our stores when they open in the mornings, but customers are now finding they can shop at any time of the day and feel confident in finding most of what they need.

As stock continues to build, we have been reviewing whether we still need to limit the number of items people buy. I am pleased to tell you that we will start to remove limits from Sunday. Limits will remain in place on the most popular items which include UHT milk, pasta and tinned tomatoes.

We have removed limits from Easter eggs immediately as we know families often want to buy more than three and we have plenty of these in all stores and online.

Supporting elderly and vulnerable customers

We are continuing to prioritise elderly and vulnerable customers for online delivery slots and our customer Careline has helped 170,000 customers, who will now get priority access to online delivery. In total, we have offered priority booking to more than 450,000 elderly or vulnerable customers. I apologise to customers who have been struggling to get through to our online team. The team is working at full capacity and we are doing our very best to get to people as quickly as possible.

We are expanding our groceries online service as much and as quickly as we can. Two weeks ago we had 370,000 online grocery slots available. By the end of next week we will have increased this to 600,000 across home delivery and click and collect and we will continue to add more capacity over the coming weeks.

Supporting our colleagues

Our colleagues really are doing a remarkable job. I have been into a number of stores over the past few days and have been struck by their dedication and their determination to do the best job for our customers. These are very uncertain times and our colleagues really are on the frontline.

We are doing everything we can to keep our colleagues safe and this includes supporting them if they need to self-isolate. Where colleagues are considered vulnerable, we are paying them in full for the recommended 12 weeks self-isolation, including colleagues who live with extremely vulnerable family members who the government has asked to shield for 12 weeks. I am personally committed to ensuring the safety of our colleagues and we will continue to do the right thing to protect them throughout this time.

I have been delighted to see that customers have told us they think colleague friendliness is at an all-time high at the moment. I think this is real testament both to the hard work of our colleagues and also the fantastic recognition they are getting for the vital role they are playing throughout this crisis. Thank you for treating our colleagues with the respect and kindness they deserve. They really are doing their best to serve our customers well in these challenging times.

Best wishes

Mike
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 03, 2020, 03:25:06 PM
Quote
We are continuing to prioritise elderly and vulnerable customers for online delivery slots and our customer Careline has helped 170,000 customers

Good for them, mum has tried many times to register as vulnerable with Sainsburys and the careline every single time has said "we're too busy, call back later".  :'(

We haven't been able to get another food delivery booked until the 8th and that was Ocado.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 03, 2020, 04:01:49 PM
Good for them, mum has tried many times to register as vulnerable with Sainsburys and the careline every single time has said "we're too busy, call back later".  :'(

We haven't been able to get another food delivery booked until the 8th and that was Ocado.

Waitrose have been doing the same, they've actually been allowed to access Govt databases of the officially vulnerable, and only those people on the database get delivery slots.  But it seems flawed to me, as people who are sick may not be elderly and vulnerable, yet it is even more important for them to fully isolate when you are sick,  and definitely avoid shopping.

We did have one further delivery from Waitrose, which was ordered before the cutoff.  I asked the driver what I should do if I became sick, to obtain further deliveries.  His best answer was that I should 'call customer service'.   Fat chance of that getting us anywhere, with call centres overwhelmed and hours of queuing.  :'(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: roseway on April 03, 2020, 04:17:55 PM
It seems that "officially vulnerable" means everyone over 70 as well as those with serious medical conditions. I'm not in the "shielding" category but I am over 70 (it was my 75th birthday yesterday) and a whole lot of new slots have just become available at Waitrose.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 03, 2020, 04:29:03 PM
No Waitrose slots showing for me, but I’ll wait and watch.

I’ve a Tesco delivery tomorrow, then another in nearly three weeks.   It’s a challenge, but I think if I’m plan carefully I probably can order enough to last three weeks and, just as challenging, to not let anything go to waste.

If I it works then in three weeks I can do it again, seeing me through til early May, by which time - who knows - we might be relaxing a little.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Bowdon on April 03, 2020, 05:30:23 PM
It seems that "officially vulnerable" means everyone over 70 as well as those with serious medical conditions. I'm not in the "shielding" category but I am over 70 (it was my 75th birthday yesterday) and a whole lot of new slots have just become available at Waitrose.

https://www.gov.uk/coronavirus-extremely-vulnerable (https://www.gov.uk/coronavirus-extremely-vulnerable)

Please go to that website and fill out the form.

I'm in the vulnerable group, got the letter a couple of weeks ago. I still had to go to that site to fill out the form.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: vic0239 on April 03, 2020, 06:09:20 PM
I’ve a Tesco delivery tomorrow, then another in nearly three weeks.
I sat up until midnight logged onto Tesco refreshing the book a slot page. Just before midnight, I joined a queue. 20 minutes later the screen refreshed and low the slots for 23rd April became available. None were available when I checked in the morning.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: vic0239 on April 03, 2020, 06:13:15 PM
https://www.gov.uk/coronavirus-extremely-vulnerable (https://www.gov.uk/coronavirus-extremely-vulnerable)

Please go to that website and fill out the form.

I'm in the vulnerable group, got the letter a couple of weeks ago. I still had to go to that site to fill out the form.
Just for England though. An elderly friend just out of hospital and in the most vulnerable group tried to register and only at the end of the process was informed “no’! Can’t see how the supermarkets can fairly allocate slots on that basis.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: roseway on April 03, 2020, 06:28:31 PM
@Bowden: Thank you for your advice, but I don't qualify for (or need) that support. There are lots of other people who do need it.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 03, 2020, 06:36:29 PM
Another problem with prioritising  elderly is, and this is fact not ageism...   not all, but many, are insufficiently computer literate to benefit from it.

I just called our neighbours, aged 80 something and 90 something, the latter not long out of hospital.   Pleased to say they accepted my offer to add quite a few things to my own delivery basket for tomorrow. :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 03, 2020, 06:46:04 PM
Another problem with prioritising  elderly is, and this is fact not ageism...   not all, but many, are insufficiently computer literate to benefit from it.

I just called our neighbours, aged 80 something and 90 something, the latter not long out of hospital.   Pleased to say they accepted my offer to add quite a few things to my own delivery basket for tomorrow. :)

Not just that, my mums ex has had prostate cancer and a heart attack so clearly at risk, but he is also completely adverse to using computers.

Its not necessarily that he can't, he just outright refuses to as he sees people getting obsessed with being online and doesn't want to "be like them".

It wouldn't even cost him anything, I already beam my WiFi across there and could easily donate him a computer, but he won't even use iPlayer built-into his TV.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 03, 2020, 07:10:15 PM
I just called our neighbours, aged 80 something and 90 something, the latter not long out of hospital.   Pleased to say they accepted my offer to add quite a few things to my own delivery basket for tomorrow. :)

And this really cheers me up, they just rang back, with more requests for tomorrow’s basket.   They have a daughter in the next village but she is a care worker with her own issues, great to feel that we might be helping out. :)

Tesco have an overall limit of 80 items but that’s fine, we’re not even close.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: g3uiss on April 03, 2020, 08:15:09 PM
(it was my 75th birthday yesterday)
So great happy birthday. I’m over 70, but no other problems.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 03, 2020, 11:49:14 PM
it was my 75th birthday yesterday

Sorry Eric, missed that in my earlier reply.  I hope you were able to find sources of cheerfulness, hard as that may be.

I’ll share an amusing anecdote of my own, also yesterday.  A large white van manoeuvred into the driveway.  It was painted with “medical logistics” on the sides.   He was delivering beer. :D
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 04, 2020, 05:10:45 AM
Sorry Eric, missed that in my earlier reply.  I hope you were able to find sources of cheerfulness, hard as that may be.

I’ll share an amusing anecdote of my own, also yesterday.  A large white van manoeuvred into the driveway.  It was painted with “medical logistics” on the sides.   He was delivering beer. :D

One of the few things my mum DID manage to get delivered was a bottle of Whisky.  ::)

So not all essentials are out of stock.  :lol:
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 04, 2020, 02:49:20 PM
This page from Office of National Statistics was linked from a BBC article earlier in the week; a summary of recent England/Wales deaths overall, and from Covid-19, compared with data from a five year average, which I personally find interesting.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending20march2020

I stress ‘interesting’ as that’s all it is.     I’d not suggest we start drawing any conclusions from things like this, unless we happen to be trained scientists.     But I do wish the BBC news reports would focus more on the huge amount of actual scientific data that is being produced, rather than just banging on about their traditional anti-government agenda (which seems to be their main focus no matter which party is in power).
the bbc have always been pro government and thats still the same now imo, we have the paper press printing hysteria whilst the bbc is still acting as the governments mouthpiece
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 04, 2020, 03:13:48 PM
the bbc have always been pro government and thats still the same now imo, we have the paper press printing hysteria whilst the bbc is still acting as the governments mouthpiece

That is a matter of opinion.

Either way I’d like to see a lot more coverage of what the real experts have to say, and a lot less coverage of what small-time politicians have to say.   Now is just not the time for political points scoring.

There’s a huge amount of really interesting data out there, and not all of it is bad news.  Just use google to see what Prof Neil Ferguson and his teams at imperial college are producing from their models, which are providing input for the government’s SAGE operations.   It’s all in the public domain, but the BBC just want to keep banging on about testing strategies - which incidentally, seem to be broadly in line with Imperial College recognition of reality all along.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: banger on April 05, 2020, 12:24:25 AM
Anyone able to get delivery slots for supermarkets? Round my way they are all full thats the big 4 and Iceland. Not a sausage to be had. :(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 05, 2020, 04:09:24 AM
Janet managed to get a Teso delivery slot for in three weeks iirc. They don’t bring it to our home, just from the east coast to Skye, to a car park in Broadford, and customers pick their stuff up from there.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 05, 2020, 10:29:17 AM
They don’t bring it to our home, just from the east coast to Skye, to a car park in Broadford, and customers pick their stuff up from there.

That sounds like a good idea to me, that might work here too.

A lot of the houses are spread out, and many are down time-consuming offshoots from the main road.  But we also have a decent sized village car park. We walk past that car park every day on our circuit of the village, as part of our authorised daily exercise.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 05, 2020, 11:01:18 AM
I have Prime at the moment and Amazon seem to be adopting a sensible tactic, which is to de-prioritise non urgent stuff, but also bundle things together.

I ordered some car wash last week which they correctly assumed was not very urgent, so Prime delivery was scheduled for end of April.  Which was fine, the cars are obviously not being used at the moment.

Then I ordered a washing up rack for the sink which is actually quite urgent as we don’t have one, and the dishwasher has packed in.   Don’t know how they guessed that was urgent but it qualified for faster delivery, and I see the car wash has also been expedited to hitch a ride.  Both expected in a couple of days. :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: CarlT on April 05, 2020, 11:35:53 AM
Good to see that aside from the obvious none of the folks here have been obviously affected.

I imagine when it comes out in the wash a member here and there will test positive for antibodies having put it down as being a cold.

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 05, 2020, 11:39:57 AM
We already know of first tenuous connection with a fatality, spouse of one of other half’s former colleagues.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 05, 2020, 11:59:19 AM
@7LM very sorry to hear about that.

First person I know has fallen ill with COVID-19. She is in hospital down in Staffordshire and I’m worried about her especially because she is elderly.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: CarlT on April 05, 2020, 12:02:55 PM
Yes. Know of a couple of people second hand and, sadly, there will probably be way more to come. That'll go for absolutely everyone that knows anyone sadly.

Best I can do is hope none of you good folks get unwell.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 05, 2020, 12:14:18 PM
@7LM very sorry to hear about that.

Sympathies for us not really appropriate, it’s not somebody we knew well, if at all.   Obviously though, sympathies to his widow and family.

Yes. Know of a couple of people second hand and, sadly, there will probably be way more to come. That'll go for absolutely everyone that knows anyone sadly.

Best I can do is hope none of you good folks get unwell.

Let’s all join in that hope.

I’m seeing rather a lot of cyclists today from my window, most geared up in their lycra, some with rucksacks on their backs, some disappearing down towards the “pedestrian only” country paths.

I absolutely won’t do this of course, but must admit I can identify with anybody feeling a slight temptation to get in their own vehicle and drive all the way round M25, or maybe to Scotland and back on the M6, just for the experience of a deserted motorway.  I guess the same temptation on a smaller scale might apply to cycling.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 05, 2020, 12:32:17 PM
7LM if you do the round-M25 thing then you will definitely be in a dystopian apocalypse movie just without the zombies but with the plague.

I’ve been reading a spreadsheet from Imperial College epidemiologists; the numbers for the USA look bad. the only possible good think to come out if it would be if the Americans finally turn on Rump and roast him alive on a spit over this, although I’d settle for a Gaddafi. He was giving himself marks out of ten for his own fanciful prediction for 100k deaths if I heard correctly; doesn’t look like there’s much chance of that now. Congratulating himself for an utter disaster.

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 05, 2020, 01:11:23 PM
7LM if you do the round-M25 thing then you will definitely be in a dystopian apocalypse movie just without the zombies but with the plague.


See this BBC pic from last week, of the famous ‘give peas a chance’ bridge.  And note the traffic levels!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-52089188

But let me make clear, to avoid criticism, and to avoid arrest, I can absolutely guarantee I will be resisting that temptation.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 05, 2020, 01:25:58 PM
Why would you be arrested for being on the M25?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on April 05, 2020, 01:29:07 PM
May be not arrested, but if he didn't have a good explanation then he would be told to go home, and possibly fined.

However he could take a virtual tour via the traffic cam's http://www.trafficengland.com/#map-menu-traffic-information - need to turn camera's on in the layers options

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 05, 2020, 07:37:26 PM
Amazon seem to be a bit haphazard with their idea of "essential".

Ordered a portable HDD and it was next-day, looking to order a CPU cooler and its saying a week.  ???

Surely if someone is working from home and their CPU cooler dies, its rather important?

In my particular case its because I want to put more CPU cores into Folding at Home but the crappy Intel cooler can't handle it.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 05, 2020, 08:34:12 PM
Sympathies, but I suspect not many people working from home will be buying CPU coolers.   Most will be using company-supplied laptops that are exclusively maintained by the company’s IT dept.   

That was certainly the case when I used to work from home, mid noughties.   I wasn’t even allowed to buy a new battery, had to go through IT.  I would however have been allowed to buy a portable HDD and claim it on expenses, since that wasn’t part of the laptop.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: meritez on April 05, 2020, 11:16:31 PM
Anyone think the 3 week lockdown may be partially lifted next week?

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 05, 2020, 11:34:13 PM
Anyone think the 3 week lockdown may be partially lifted next week?

None of us here are remotely qualified to comment on such a question.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 06, 2020, 12:02:41 AM
The invasion has come https://www.facebook.com/louise.parker.963/videos/10217285116379502/ (https://www.facebook.com/louise.parker.963/videos/10217285116379502/)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 06, 2020, 01:03:44 AM
The invasion has come https://www.facebook.com/louise.parker.963/videos/10217285116379502/ (https://www.facebook.com/louise.parker.963/videos/10217285116379502/)

  :)

One of the options being touted, for a later stage, is South Korean style population tracking via mobile phone data.  A bit like snoopers’ charter on steroids.  Once testing becomes feasible, it appears that such tracking helps with containment.   

I wonder, would people in UK put up with that?

Personally I have crossed many of my own red lines already.   I’ve signed up with the sleaziest operators of all, the supermarkets.   I’ve signed up with wine merchants, and even disclosed my date of birth.  I have even enabled online banking on my accounts, which I swore I’d never do.

In the light of all that, and given that nobody has any real secrets from the state any more anyway, I’d personally agree in a heartbeat to such tracking.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: burakkucat on April 06, 2020, 01:14:36 AM
One of the options being touted, for a later stage, is South Korean style population tracking via mobile phone data.

I see one flaw. When did it become compulsory for every person to possess a mobile telephone, the data of which could be tracked?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 06, 2020, 02:13:21 AM
I see one flaw. When did it become compulsory for every person to possess a mobile telephone, the data of which could be tracked?

True, but even my mums ex who refuses to even use BBC iPlayer as he hates technology so much, grudgingly owns a mobile phone.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 06, 2020, 07:31:59 AM
I see one flaw. When did it become compulsory for every person to possess a mobile telephone, the data of which could be tracked?

Interesting question.  Even dumb phones provide some degree of tracking via tower triangulation, but that still leaves the ‘no phone at all’ scenario.

I believe card transactions also provide input to the published  data.  That, for example, would enable fairly accurate tracking of an individual’s movements within London on public transport.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 06, 2020, 08:51:31 AM
Yes they can  :(   the virus is 'zoonotic'  That is a disease that can spread from animals to humans and humans to animals.

Finally, some evidence of spread, to tigers at a zoo.    I don’t regard BBC news as a source of reliable information, but this does sound convincing and worrying...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52177586
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: meritez on April 06, 2020, 09:26:48 AM
None of us here are remotely qualified to comment on such a question.

Sweden's epidemiologist thinks we have gone too far with the lockdown: https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/05/uks-lockdown-gone-far-says-swedens-leading-scientist-12512763/

I'm curious what Dominic Raab will advise later
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 06, 2020, 10:01:02 AM
Sweden's epidemiologist thinks we have gone too far with the lockdown: https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/05/uks-lockdown-gone-far-says-swedens-leading-scientist-12512763/

I'm curious what Dominic Raab will advise later

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Tegnell
Quote
Nils Anders Tegnell (born 17 April 1956)[1] is a Swedish physician and civil servant.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Ferguson_(epidemiologist)
Quote
Neil Morris Ferguson OBE FMedSci (born 1968) is a British epidemiologist[3] and professor of mathematical biology, who specialises in the patterns of spread of infectious disease in humans and animals.

I wouldn’t expect Raab to be unduly influenced by a foreign civil servant when he can have advice from what may well be better qualified, and more impartial, experts with their feet on the ground here at home.


Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: CarlT on April 06, 2020, 11:23:59 AM
Amazon seem to be a bit haphazard with their idea of "essential".

Ordered a portable HDD and it was next-day, looking to order a CPU cooler and its saying a week.  ???

Surely if someone is working from home and their CPU cooler dies, its rather important?

I can assure you almost no-one working from home relies on kit with a replaceable CPU cooler and Amazon sell far fewer of those than they do external storage devices.

People running their own businesses relying on higher performance computing at home perhaps, however they would you'd hope not really on Amazon for spare parts.

People working from home on business kit will have a company supplier or order from anywhere and expense, cost irrelevant.

Amazon's idea of essentials is things like food, toilet paper, paper towels, sanitary products, etc. The idea that they would include IT stuff of any description in the prioritised essentials is a little strange.

You were lucky to see that on next day. Stock was in the right place at the right time.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: gt94sss2 on April 06, 2020, 11:49:28 AM
Anyone think the 3 week lockdown may be partially lifted next week?

No. if anything, I suspect it will get tougher before it starts being relaxed.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: tickmike on April 06, 2020, 11:50:43 AM
Finally, some evidence of spread, to tigers at a zoo.    I don’t regard BBC news as a source of reliable information, but this does sound convincing and worrying...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52177586
My daughter also had this info passed on through there 'zoo keepers' network about the Tiger but they also need more info about it to make any conclusions .

A person in our village has come down with the Virus, he and his wife have have been in hospital, he's been sent home but she is in a bad way still in hospital, He foolishly went to a meeting in the next town with a lot of people during lock down, he has been seen walking his dogs around the area knowing he had the virus (very irresponsible  >:D) .

Now the person and there family who looked after this chaps dogs have it, Possible link there is the virus can live up to four hours on the animals fur .  :o

Edit .. The Big cats (Tiger) incident above does seem to an active infection in all of that group at that zoo, all world wide zoo's are being issued with Covid 19 safety advice for the animals.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 06, 2020, 02:50:29 PM
That article linked to says that Sweden’s death toll is a lot higher than other Scandinavian countries. Denmark should be comparable but the other countries might differ due to geography, I don’t know, but because if the figure for Denmark I can see how the figure for Sweden can be said to be that bad solely due to Sweden’s geography; more like that scientist who has been advising the Swedish government is just a dangerous idiot. Was there a hint in the article that the Swedish government is getting cold feet and starting to ignore him and gong over to the approach of over sensible countries?



Bushman :
https://www.facebook.com/1786599751616434/posts/2928663017410096/
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: vic0239 on April 06, 2020, 04:08:15 PM
I've noticed when the BBC talk about someone who is sadly deceased they refer to it as "died with coronavirus". I've never heard that term before in general use in that context, it's usually "died of" or "died from". Does "died with" have a specific meaning or significance or is it just a BBCism?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 06, 2020, 04:24:19 PM
I've noticed when the BBC talk about someone who is sadly deceased they refer to it as "died with coronavirus". I've never heard that term before in general use in that context, it's usually "died of" or "died from". Does "died with" have a specific meaning or significance or is it just a BBCism?

I think they are covering for the possibility that some people in the statistics may be dying of other causes, even though they were also being treated for Covid-19.

So technically they are probably being accurate but I agree it sounds slightly strained sometimes, I wonder if the newsreaders have been told to put extra emphasis on the ‘with’?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 06, 2020, 04:39:05 PM
I think it’s just the BBC’s lack of ability to write English. Both in ‘died with’ and died of/with/because of Coronavirus when what they mean is ‘covid-19th. You can’t say ‘someone died of/from/with [etc.] virus’
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: j0hn on April 06, 2020, 05:00:06 PM
No they mean exactly what they say. Their use of English seems correct to me.

The figures aren't for people who died because of covid19, but people who simply died with covid19 in their system.

Most deaths are people with underlying health conditions. It's easier to lump all deaths with covid19 together rather than try guess which patients were actually killed by the virus.
It keeps reporting between different healthcare systems similar, though differences still remain.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: vic0239 on April 06, 2020, 05:20:35 PM
I see ... I think that makes sense. If someone "dies with dignity" then being dignified obviously isn't the cause of death, so possibly adding "symptoms" would make more sense to my ears. They "died with coronavirus symptoms" gives more weight to the cause of death perhaps being some other cause.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 06, 2020, 06:45:43 PM
Big surprise, under government guidelines me and my mum are NOT considered vulnerable.

It seems the only people they are prioritising are people currently receiving treatment for cancer or lung disease.

Anyone with Asthma which is controlled is not included, despite the fact it obviously would no longer be controlled if they got COVID-19.

I almost died the last time I got gastroentiritis but no, apparently I'm not at risk despite the fact even the common flu has a high chance of going to be chest.  I've learnt how to breath out quickly enough to force up any build up on my chest to avoid that, its bad for my throat but better than a chest infection.

I've already had a rough winter with chest pain and my O2 dropping to 92%, very doubtful I'd survive pneumonia and if I did would be a greater drain on the NHS for the rest of my life.  You really get the feeling they just want us all to die.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 06, 2020, 06:46:49 PM
Stock markets doing a tiny bit better today, attributed by some to favourable worldwide statistics.   UK and elsewhere are still expected to wait a bit longer before much improvement but globally it seems, there are positive signs from the various countries that have locked down. 

The fund managers that influence these markets do know a thing or two about number crunching, so lets’s hope they’re right. :fingers:

My own favourite source of stats... Toggle from linear to logarithmic on some of the country-specific data, you can see how the curves change a few weeks after suppression begins.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/



Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 06, 2020, 07:20:03 PM
That’s not the same kind of relation or role with respect to the verb. I didn’t explain myself properly and I should have pointed out that there could be an accidental pattern of words that looks the same but which has a verb different internal structure and doesn’t mean the same thing. There is a name for this in linguistics: “he hit him with a stick” (instrument role argument); “he hit him with delight” (adjunct or adverbial); he was killed by a gun (“instrument role argument”); he was killed by a quiet stream (locative adjunct). Please forgive me if my memory is failing - it’s be been 23 years since I studied this stuff.

I meant to say that this was the wrong role word to use with this kind of role in the subcategorisation frame for this verb.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: 4candles on April 06, 2020, 07:35:19 PM
I think it’s just the BBC’s lack of ability to write English. Both in ‘died with’ and died of/with/because of Coronavirus when what they mean is ‘covid-19th. You can’t say ‘someone died of/from/with [etc.] virus’

I'd prefer to hear 'with Covid-19' but would find 'with the coronavirus' acceptable.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 06, 2020, 07:58:30 PM
Amazon's idea of essentials is things like food, toilet paper, paper towels, sanitary products, etc. The idea that they would include IT stuff of any description in the prioritised essentials is a little strange.

You were lucky to see that on next day. Stock was in the right place at the right time.

Its not though, we rely on Amazon for a lot of essentials and Pantry is practically non-existent, all Morrisons products have been withdrawn (presumably not enough to supply their own stores and Amazon), etc.

Honestly I didn't expect they would include IT stuff in their essentials, it was the fact over the past week I've ordered three fans and a HDD and none of those were de-prioritised.  I guess it could be they suddenly have less delivery drivers or a different warehouse.

Must be warehouse or something, as if I put the cooler in the same order as a food item, they are not combined in the same delivery (at least not in the basket).
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 06, 2020, 08:08:14 PM
Sweden's epidemiologist thinks we have gone too far with the lockdown: https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/05/uks-lockdown-gone-far-says-swedens-leading-scientist-12512763/

I'm curious what Dominic Raab will advise later

Seriously?  When our cases were climbing more rapidly than Italy and their lockdown is WAY more strict than ours?

Natural herd immunity only ever happens by killing off everyone too weak to survive, how is that an acceptable outcome in a rich ration that has alternatives?

Some of the greatest scientific discoveries in history came from people who would have died before making those discoveries, had they been treated with the same "just let it happen" attitude!
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Bowdon on April 06, 2020, 09:33:43 PM
I managed to get a tesco delivery slot for Wednesday.

I noticed on the order confirmation it says
Quote
Your groceries will arrive Without Bags

How does that work?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 06, 2020, 09:52:42 PM
I managed to get a tesco delivery slot for Wednesday.

I noticed on the order confirmation it says
How does that work?

Our first Tesco deliveries, a few weeks ago, were bagged.  It was the new style heavy duty plastic bags, makes me cringe at the wastage.

Saturday’s Tesco delivery wasn’t bagged.   We wouldn’t let him in the house and he didn’t want to come in anyway, so the shopping was all laid on the driveway, each individual item laid on the tarmac.  Thank goodness it was a dry day.   My guess is, having scaled down bag production  over the past year or two, there’s probably a shortage of bags.

Both our Waitrose deliveries have been bagged and better still, they’ve been using old fashioned lightweight single-use bags, much less plastic wastage.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: vic0239 on April 06, 2020, 09:54:11 PM
Here at least the no bags rule has been suspended. The delivery arrives already bagged and the driver will leave them at your door and retreat. No need to sign for them either.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 07, 2020, 12:42:03 AM
Here at least the no bags rule has been suspended. The delivery arrives already bagged and the driver will leave them at your door and retreat. No need to sign for them either.

I was under the impression they all were supposed to have revoked the "no bags" rule as it was implemented on the principle that the driver helps you unpack the crates, which obviously they can't right now.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 07, 2020, 10:46:51 AM
Anybody else picked up on rumours that Germany has published a document planning easing up of their lockdowns after 19th April?

The story goes it’s not that they think the lockdowns were wrong, rather that they think the lockdowns have worked and now ready to move to the next phase, whilst keeping the reproductive number below 1.     I keep seeing mention of such a plan, but can’t find any concrete evidence. Until I do, I’ll regard it as just a rumour, but here’s the top hit I got from searching...

https://www.france24.com/en/20200406-germany-outlines-plan-for-scaling-back-coronavirus-lockdown

Emphasise again, I regard this for now as nothing more than rumour, not yet a ‘fact’ in my book.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 07, 2020, 06:41:04 PM
Surely you can't say the lockdown "has worked" until you stop getting new cases and/or have a vaccine?

The second you end the lockdown, cases will just go up again, its only logical.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 07, 2020, 06:44:26 PM
Agreed with Alex. Of course 7LM isn’t saying that.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 07, 2020, 07:06:31 PM

The second you end the lockdown, cases will just go up again, its only logical.

No.   As long as the reproductive number is less than 1, that is when each infected person infects less than one other people, cases must drop.

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 07, 2020, 07:44:59 PM
Adding to above, here’s one of the Imperial College reports, looking at how China has got on with relaxing the lockdowns.     It’s a couple of weeks old unfortunately, so maybe out of date.

From my position of scientific ignorance and likely misunderstanding, I think the important fact seems to be that containment must be achieved first, after which partial relaxation of distancing policies may be possible without immediate resumption of disaster...

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-Exiting-Social-Distancing-24-03-2020.pdf
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 07, 2020, 08:16:56 PM
No.   As long as the reproductive number is less than 1, that is when each infected person infects less than one other people, cases must drop.
no evidance of that though sadly, i think our r0 is still above 1 and ending a lockdown would just increase r0 as well
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 07, 2020, 08:38:13 PM
no evidance of that though sadly, i think our r0 is still above 1 and ending a lockdown would just increase r0 as well

I have seen no credible suggestions that we in the UK are anywhere close to being able to relax the lockdowns.

But I was referring to reports (see reply #316) that Germany may believe they are approaching a point where they can keep R below 1, whilst relaxing their own lockdowns.  Not a return to normal, but a relaxation, albeit with other measures such as intensive population tracking.

I’m not the biggest fan of German culture or German politics, but I so have good respect for their scientific competence. 
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 07, 2020, 08:52:07 PM
fingers crossed they right
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 07, 2020, 10:04:54 PM
No.   As long as the reproductive number is less than 1, that is when each infected person infects less than one other people, cases must drop.

Sure, but how do you achieve that WITHOUT lockdown?

The way I see it, our lockdown is already pretty relaxed.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 07, 2020, 10:17:14 PM
Sure, but how do you achieve that WITHOUT lockdown?

The way I see it, our lockdown is already pretty relaxed.

I was never referring to our lockdown, I was referring to (multiple and consistent) rumours thar Germany may soon be able to make a move.

There are different degrees of lockdown, and lockdown is not the only weapon in the armory.   Here again is a link to one account of German plans...

https://www.france24.com/en/20200406-germany-outlines-plan-for-scaling-back-coronavirus-lockdown

Quote
The document envisages a staged return to normality, backed by mechanisms that will make it possible to track more than 80% of people with whom an infected person had contact within 24 hours of diagnosis. Infected people and those they had contact with will be quarantined, either at home or in hotels.

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: kitz on April 08, 2020, 03:58:04 AM
I'm not in the "shielding" category but I am over 70 (it was my 75th birthday yesterday) and a whole lot of new slots have just become available at Waitrose.

Belated birthday wishes. :congrats:
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 08, 2020, 05:41:08 AM
I was never referring to our lockdown, I was referring to (multiple and consistent) rumours thar Germany may soon be able to make a move.

There are different degrees of lockdown, and lockdown is not the only weapon in the armory.   Here again is a link to one account of German plans...

https://www.france24.com/en/20200406-germany-outlines-plan-for-scaling-back-coronavirus-lockdown

Interesting, but hasn't it already been suggested that protective masks are useless?

It would also mean restaurants and coffee shops can't re-open, as you'd have to remove your mask.  Plus it doesn't exactly reduce the risks at work, where I can't see people wearing a mask all day, plus what to do when you need to eat or drink there too?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 08, 2020, 05:53:22 AM
I have come to defeat on trying to get recognition for disabled people not in the list, we are just going to be lumped alongside the fully fit.

I bumped up my asda order to try and prepare for a stint with no food coming in, i have one more asda order next week also, as I managed to pre book them when asda accidently unlocked the slots to everyone for a day (they honouring the orders).

Also I registered on facebook, I hate the site, but its where all the support groups are registered and working (alarming the amount of tracking they doing, they recognised all my family and friends already on there, just from my initial registration of name and email address).  So anyone who might need help with food deliveries, facebook is the place to be.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: roseway on April 08, 2020, 06:49:33 AM
@kitz: Thank you :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 08, 2020, 08:28:07 AM
Interesting, but hasn't it already been suggested that protective masks are useless?

It would also mean restaurants and coffee shops can't re-open, as you'd have to remove your mask.  Plus it doesn't exactly reduce the risks at work, where I can't see people wearing a mask all day, plus what to do when you need to eat or drink there too?

Masks seem to be just one aspect the supposed German plans, not sure they are a major aspect.   But scientific opinion does seem to be shifting, such that there are benefits if infected people , especially those who don’t know they are infected, wear masks.   The theory seems to be that even fairly basic masks cut down on you infecting other people, as you don’t sneeze or cough for as far.

I think that certified (FFP2/N95 I think are the terms) masks and respirators, when used correctly, must also help to avoid becoming infected.  Health staff seem to depend upon them, after all.  There’s a shortage of course but I’m sure manufacturers will be working hard to increase production.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on April 08, 2020, 10:18:29 AM
I was going to say the same as 7LM about the masks when infected people sneeze or cough, but he beat me to it.

Quote
An update from Sainsbury's Chief Executive Mike CoupeDear

Ron,

I wrote to you last week to update you on how we are supporting elderly and vulnerable customers with access to groceries online. I wanted to share some progress we have made on this over the past few days.

When I wrote last, we had offered 450,000 elderly and vulnerable customers priority booking to online delivery. At the end of last week we received the government database, which includes details of all the people in England who have registered with the government to say that they are vulnerable and need help getting a food shop. Since then we have been able to match almost 150,000 additional customers against our database. We have already contacted almost 30,000 of those and so we are now contacting almost 120,000 additional customers to offer them a priority delivery slot.

We are waiting for the databases for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and will contact vulnerable customers in those areas as soon as we are able.

We know many elderly and vulnerable people who need to self-isolate are relying on the kindness of family, friends and local communities to shop on their behalf and we encourage this.

You wrote to tell me that product limits were a barrier to being able to shop for other people. We understand that it can be difficult to buy what you need and shop for someone else with the 3 item product limit. We have now lifted buying restrictions on thousands of products and hope that this will help more of you to shop for others. I also want to reassure you that stock levels are now much better right across the store. We are keeping limits on the most popular items for now, including pasta, UHT milk, antibacterial products and some tinned and frozen foods. But you can now feel confident in shopping in our stores at any time of day and being able to find most of what you need.

To help people shop for others easily, we will be introducing a new volunteer gift card and online voucher in the next week or two. I will share more information on this soon.

Many of you have also written to me to tell me about food banks and community groups near you that are struggling in this crisis. We know from our ongoing support of food banks that this is a particularly tough time for them right across the country. To help with this, we have donated £3 million to Fareshare, who will use that money to distribute donated food to the people who need it the most. We are also partnering with Comic Relief and the BBC on The Big Night In which aims to raise money for people impacted by COVID 19. We'll be sharing more information on this in stores and online.

Best wishes

Mike
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: CarlT on April 08, 2020, 10:26:15 AM
Surely you can't say the lockdown "has worked" until you stop getting new cases and/or have a vaccine?

The second you end the lockdown, cases will just go up again, its only logical.

The lockdown cannot carry on for that long. Callous as it may seem keeping it going until there are zero new cases isn't an option.

We wouldn't be able to fund this. What would be left after the lockdown is opened would be unrecognisable. I need a job to pay taxes to fund healthcare, welfare and other public services. While I can work from home a number of our customers cannot and would close, in turn impacting us.

South Korea levels would be okay. Everything is a balancing act and carries some risk. A cautious and staggered reopening could and should commence if the numbers permit this month.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: meritez on April 08, 2020, 10:45:35 AM
Interesting, but hasn't it already been suggested that protective masks are useless?

It would also mean restaurants and coffee shops can't re-open, as you'd have to remove your mask.  Plus it doesn't exactly reduce the risks at work, where I can't see people wearing a mask all day, plus what to do when you need to eat or drink there too?

Yes protective masks are useless, unless you are also protecting your eyes.

New Zealand is doing exceptionally well: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/new-zealand-isnt-just-flattening-the-curve-its-squashing-it/ar-BB12gstI

The Level 4 lockdown they are under is detailed here: https://covid19.govt.nz/alert-system/covid-19-alert-system/

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 08, 2020, 10:48:25 AM
Carl I think the way forward is immunity pass's, so as people are determined it to be immune, they become exempt from the lockdown, which is kind of a gradual phasing of returning to normality.

The problem is with just cancelling it for economic reasons, is firstly its counter productive if it just makes the virus explode, and secondaly as much as everyone wants it, you cannot run an economy normally when everyone is in fear of the virus.  It just wouldnt work.  But I do agree we wont be waiting until the thing is 100% gone.

The reality is that covid 19 will probably stay around for a long while, so we will have to learn to manage it, I think what the governments are waiting for is enough people to get immunity which slows the spread and eases burden on health services, and for any type of treatment/vaccine which will help survival rates.  Once the risk level is closer to normal flu, then I think people can start to return to normal ways of living.

I think certain parts of society will stay changed though e.g. I think food deliveries will in the long term have higher demand than before the virus.  I think we also are going to see a shift left in politics.  Kind of like after ww2 but less extreme.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 08, 2020, 11:05:14 AM
Masks seem to be just one aspect the supposed German plans, not sure they are a major aspect.   But scientific opinion does seem to be shifting, such that there are benefits if infected people , especially those who don’t know they are infected, wear masks.   The theory seems to be that even fairly basic masks cut down on you infecting other people, as you don’t sneeze or cough for as far.

I think that certified (FFP2/N95 I think are the terms) masks and respirators, when used correctly, must also help to avoid becoming infected.  Health staff seem to depend upon them, after all.  There’s a shortage of course but I’m sure manufacturers will be working hard to increase production.

I can understand the masks helping prevent you infecting to some degree, but I just don't see how you would convince people to wear them consistently, especially as the weather gets warmer.

As for the certified ones, the problem seems to be for how long they are effective.

It seems incredibly ambitious of them to suggest they can get enough masks for their entire population.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 08, 2020, 01:34:09 PM
I agree with Chrys about the shift to the left. The NHS may have secured some long term protection now.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: c6em on April 08, 2020, 04:49:32 PM
I'd reckon on a hard shift to the right.
Start with ID card to enable tracing of everyone, NHS to cease treating those without unless paid upfront.
All mobile PAYG sim cards to be registered to a person - any not by certain date to be cut off immediately
We cannot have illegal immigration bringing back in CV19 - so any found will be deported the next day - no appeals no discussion.
Cash to be effectively banned
NHS needs a total overhaul - along S.Korean lines which has proved itself far better and handling the situation so privatise the lot - as indeed the health service is out there
Those who work in the NHS tell me there is no shortage of money - its all just wasted.
Today for example there is an advert for a diversity manager in Bristol at a cost of two nurses' salaries -this the sort of drivel we get from the NHS today and it needs to change pronto.
https://www.jobs.nhs.uk/xi/vacancy/916004843 (https://www.jobs.nhs.uk/xi/vacancy/916004843)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 08, 2020, 05:37:01 PM
I can understand the masks helping prevent you infecting to some degree, but I just don't see how you would convince people to wear them consistently, especially as the weather gets warmer.

As for the certified ones, the problem seems to be for how long they are effective.

It seems incredibly ambitious of them to suggest they can get enough masks for their entire population.

1.  I’m quite sure, with their ruthless efficiency, German scientists would have included estimates for non compliance, when calculating the benefits of any single strategy.

2.  FFP2/N95 masks and respirators are usually meant to be single use, that does not make them ‘useless’.

3. The recent CDC advice for mask wearing in the USA is basically ‘make your own, from fabric’.  They’ve even published a pattern and sewing instructions.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/diy-cloth-face-coverings.html

... Wish my Grandmother was still alive.  She died in 1990 but seemed to spend the last 30 years of her life simply sewing and embroidering. :D

Yes protective masks are useless, unless you are also protecting your eyes.

So you cough through your eyes?   That’s unusual.  For the rest of us, latest evidence seems to be that masks contribute to slowing the spread.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 09, 2020, 09:51:21 AM
Interesting data from IHME, predicting course of pandemic in the UK.  A lot more pessimistic than the current Imperial College predictions of <20k deaths during the lockdown, IHME showing NHS massively overwhelmed and > 60k deaths by early May.

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-kingdom

Consensus of academic opinion seems to be that IHME might be getting it quite wildly wrong for UK, missing a number of factors.  So far as I understand they make their predictions mainly from extrapolating the curves, rather than Imperial College’s models of spread and infection rates.  But IHME does appear to be a respected institution, and not to be sneezed at.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Health_Metrics_and_Evaluation



Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: meritez on April 09, 2020, 10:19:42 AM
Interesting data from IHME, predicting course of pandemic in the UK.  A lot more pessimistic than the current Imperial College predictions of <20k deaths during the lockdown, IHME showing NHS massively overwhelmed and > 60k deaths by early May.

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-kingdom


But America is only estimated at 60k deaths by the same data, which is 6k less than the UK?

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 09, 2020, 10:30:04 AM
I don’t understand the data there. The error bars are so enormous that the results come out as ‘we have no clue’ - daily deaths peak is at min 1k, max 9k. I suppose it is what it is. Someone has a lot of further work to do to make those numbers tight enough to be really useful.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 09, 2020, 11:44:59 AM
I don't think anybody can pretend the error bars don't exist. 

Imperial College also issue an ongoing forecast of daily death rates for the week ahead, updated each week by the reality of what happened the previous week.   I'm not pretending to understand all the data, but I think the error margins are slightly tighter.  And actually, are they that different from IHME?

Viewed on an iPad, I had to turn it to portrait to render this page correctly and expose the 'Access forecast full report' link.  Then to see the graphs within the report, click on 'Projections and estimates' then 'Projections'.

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/mrc-global-infectious-disease-analysis/covid-19/covid-19-weekly-forecasts/week-07-04-2020/

Interesting to see that Spain and Italy, if I understand the graphs correctly, have been less bad than the models predicted in recent weeks.

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 11, 2020, 10:24:46 AM
I missed the fact that last week, Andrew Marr interviewed Imperial’s Neil Fergusson, aka Professor Lockdown.   It’s a good interview that puts a lot of things in context, why did we act when we did, etc.   Fergusson gives convincing and neutral answers about how and why we are where we are, and how the lockdown might end and allow us to move on.

And - quite rightly - the interview, whilst deadly serious,  is not entirely without humour.  I liked that Marr asks “I just wondered how you cope, looking in the mirror in the morning”, quickly adding “not the shaving mirror, clearly”.  :)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p088qgkl
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 12, 2020, 01:27:27 AM
I got a text from the gov saying I am been passed onto the supermarkets even without been on the list.

My GP intervened last week.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 12, 2020, 12:52:15 PM
I got a text from the gov saying I am been passed onto the supermarkets even without been on the list.

My GP intervened last week.

Lucky, our GP said to my mum she isn't on the list, that was it.

The supermarkets are taking "the list" as gospel, which is too bad for the 95% of us that are merely just "vulnerable" so self isolating, but not serious enough to be on the list.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 12, 2020, 03:53:11 PM
Lucky, our GP said to my mum she isn't on the list, that was it.

The supermarkets are taking "the list" as gospel, which is too bad for the 95% of us that are merely just "vulnerable" so self isolating, but not serious enough to be on the list.

Worst of all must be those who are not on the vulnerable list, yet are currently ill with symptoms of Covid-19.   Do they get any help at all, obtaining delivery slots?   

If not, supermarkets may be creating a dangerous temptation for these people to break the rules and go shopping in person, which is probably the last thing anybody wants...
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 12, 2020, 03:57:34 PM
Worst of all must be those who are not on the vulnerable list, yet are currently ill with symptoms of Covid-19.   Do they get any help at all, obtaining delivery slots?   

If not, supermarkets may be creating a dangerous temptation for these people to break the rules and go shopping in person, which is probably the last thing anybody wants...

That too.  Its utterly bizarre that they are focusing on helping just one tiny subset of people who, as my mum points out, surely ALREADY get some help as if you're in the middle of a serious illness you'd have died without it.

I get having priorities, but having it as just two is bizarre.  Its denying help to the majority who need it.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 12, 2020, 08:49:10 PM
Lucky, our GP said to my mum she isn't on the list, that was it.

The supermarkets are taking "the list" as gospel, which is too bad for the 95% of us that are merely just "vulnerable" so self isolating, but not serious enough to be on the list.
i agree on that
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: CarlT on April 13, 2020, 12:53:27 PM
What a complete moron.

https://twitter.com/gamray/status/1249639419369357312

I have complained to Ofcom. First time ever I've complained about content in a TV show but that was a bridge too far.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 13, 2020, 02:00:57 PM
What a complete moron.

https://twitter.com/gamray/status/1249639419369357312

I have complained to Ofcom. First time ever I've complained about content in a TV show but that was a bridge too far.

I searched for a longer clip just in case the tweet was being selective, and it’s even worse.  The lady who seems to be talking sense actually backs down a bit, agreeing that maybe there is a 5G conspiracy, we just shouldn’t vandalise the equipment.   I don’t often watch that programme, was she a journalist, too?   Why didn’t she just tell him he was too stupid to engage in further conversation and wait for the producer to intervene?

Example I watched, top hit I found on Google..

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11386816/eamonn-holmes-conspiracy-5g-coronavirus/


Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: roseway on April 13, 2020, 02:13:32 PM
There are times when I despair. He claimed it was his duty to question opinions, but all he was doing was giving oxygen to a totally mad conspiracy theory. Idiot.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 13, 2020, 07:07:12 PM
i think the 5g stuff isnt true, but that wasnt his point, his point was the media shouldnt automatically accept what the state says and do its own research etc.

as an example im not happy the likes of youtube have turned into a censoring machine
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 13, 2020, 07:54:22 PM
i think the 5g stuff isnt true, but that wasnt his point, his point was the media shouldnt automatically accept what the state says and do its own research etc.

as an example im not happy the likes of youtube have turned into a censoring machine

Nonsense.   We are in the middle of the biggest crisis we have faced, outside of world war.  Madcap conspiracy theories may be a giggle at other times but right now, these ideas are just not funny and not appropriate, there are too many idiots who will believe in them.

And yes, in such a crisis, media should be trusting what the state says within reason, just as they would if we were actually at war.    If youtube is ‘censoring’ these clowns they have my full support, just as I’d support them in censoring holocaust deniers.

Apols for the rant.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: jelv on April 13, 2020, 08:51:41 PM
+1
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 13, 2020, 08:54:31 PM
Nonsense.   We are in the middle of the biggest crisis we have faced, outside of world war.  Madcap conspiracy theories may be a giggle at other times but right now, these ideas are just not funny and not appropriate, there are too many idiots who will believe in them.

And yes, in such a crisis, media should be trusting what the state says within reason, just as they would if we were actually at war.    If youtube is ‘censoring’ these clowns they have my full support, just as I’d support them in censoring holocaust deniers.

Apols for the rant.

youtube are censoring a lot now, pretty much everything thats considered conspiracy theory.

Also no the news media should not blindly believe government on everything.

I dont agree with the 5g covid 19 stuff thats my personal view, but I also dont believe in shutting off alternative views.

I dont think has claimed these views are funny either.  They not there for entertainment purposes.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 13, 2020, 09:17:00 PM
I suppose you are entitled to be stupid.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: kitz on April 13, 2020, 10:39:04 PM
The amount of conspiracies I'm seeing right now is ridiculous and not just 5G. 
Bill gates did it so we'd all be vaccinated.   Its been done to target Trump.   Its a bioweapon.   The US did it.  France did it.    NY is burying empty coffins & no one really died. .. it goes on and on and on. 

I saw this clip earlier and I too was furious.  It sounds like he is backing the 5G claim despite the fact it is false.   
Then when he said Main Stream Media I cringed.  Errr isn't he part of the MSM.     :rant:
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: j0hn on April 14, 2020, 01:03:41 AM
Nonsense.   We are in the middle of the biggest crisis we have faced, outside of world war.  Madcap conspiracy theories may be a giggle at other times but right now, these ideas are just not funny and not appropriate, there are too many idiots who will believe in them.

And yes, in such a crisis, media should be trusting what the state says within reason, just as they would if we were actually at war.    If youtube is ‘censoring’ these clowns they have my full support, just as I’d support them in censoring holocaust deniers.

Apols for the rant.

I couldn't agree more.

How anyone can argue with their statement on this is beyond me.

Quote from: YouTube
"We have clear policies that prohibit videos promoting medically unsubstantiated methods to prevent the coronavirus in place of seeking medical treatment, and we quickly remove videos violating these policies when flagged to us," a spokeswoman for YouTube told the BBC.

"Now any content that disputes the existence or transmission of Covid-19, as described by the WHO [World Health Organization] and local health authorities is in violation of YouTube policies.

"This includes conspiracy theories which claim that the symptoms are caused by 5G."
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 14, 2020, 09:29:28 PM
Thats blatant censoring, e.g. I think the WHO are wrong about if its airborne.

There is educated scientists arguing about that to this day, and evidence supporting it, but if I were to make a video stating that, under their current policies it would be taken down.

I think thats far from a conspiracy theory.

Government's are also flip flopping from day to day on recommendation's as they "reacting" rather than using educated decision making for safety.  e.g. at the start the NHs advice for PPE was reasonable, but they radically changed it when they realised they had no proper stock of PPE.  There is current advice not to use masks, because again supply issues, when enough supply is available that advice will change over night.  So something could be labeled a conspiracy theory one day, and be government advice the next.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: CarlT on April 14, 2020, 09:52:43 PM
With all due no-one cares what you think about whether the virus can go airborne given you have no scientific background in the field.

The UK has never had full freedom of speech. We aren't the United States and have no first amendment.

This really a hill you want to die on?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 14, 2020, 10:31:47 PM
One hope I’m clinging too is that, after all this, we’ll learn to leave science to the scientists.   

Science no longer influenced by ratings-conscious TV channels or attention-seeking celebrities.  And public opinion or mass demonstrations of lay people/children being deemed irrelevant to the conclusions of scientific research.

Science just as it should be, based purely on genuine research.  I can dream.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 14, 2020, 11:53:02 PM
With all due no-one cares what you think about whether the virus can go airborne given you have no scientific background in the field.

The UK has never had full freedom of speech. We aren't the United States and have no first amendment.

This really a hill you want to die on?

Not really, but if no one cared, there wouldnt be any censoring.

I have been in lots of healthy discussions about this stuff, but its a bit heavy handed when someone steps in and says this is how it is anyone who says otherwise I will stuff your mouth.

My opinion is based on scientists themselves and evidence, nothing other than that really.

As always its about selective evidence, if you want to form an official stance, you pick and choose which scientists agree with it, and use them as the basis of it, when it could have easily been done the other way as well.  Did you forget the open letter from scientists to the government some weeks back.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 15, 2020, 01:17:58 AM
I recall an open letter from campaigners including some doctors to the government, egged on by social media campaigns, some weeks back.   Being brutally honest, doctors are usually not scientists.

Technically I am a scientist myself, as I have a Bachelor of Science degree.  But I don’t regard an electronics engineer such as myself as qualified to comment upon this pandemic, any more than I regard my GP as qualified to comment.

Leave it to those who are qualified.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 15, 2020, 04:21:49 AM
One hope I’m clinging too is that, after all this, we’ll learn to leave science to the scientists.   

Science no longer influenced by ratings-conscious TV channels or attention-seeking celebrities.  And public opinion or mass demonstrations of lay people/children being deemed irrelevant to the conclusions of scientific research.

Science just as it should be, based purely on genuine research.  I can dream.

To be fair, the mass demonstrations of children HAS been based on the governments ignoring the science.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 15, 2020, 08:15:24 AM
To be fair, the mass demonstrations of children HAS been based on the governments ignoring the science.

And the children are scientifically qualified to make that judgement?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 15, 2020, 09:24:02 AM
And the children are scientifically qualified to make that judgement?

When the scientists say "we need to do x right now or were screwed" and the governments say "were doing y by this date" and the two conflict, then you don't need a PHD to make that distinction.

How is it any different to the NHS claiming they need more money, the government saying were giving it to them when the figures clearly prove they are not?

Are you seriously suggesting that people should do nothing unless they work in that field?  Nothing ever would change with that attitude!

You could make the same claim about 99% of what is said on this forum/site, most of us aren't experts in the technology but it doesn't mean we can't see when something is wrong.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 15, 2020, 09:58:50 AM
When the scientists say "we need to do x right now or were screwed" and the governments say "were doing y by this date" and the two conflict, then you don't need a PHD to make that distinction.

Personally, if these circumstances were to arise, first thing I’d do is look into the qualifications of the scientists that are saying we’re screwed.  Before taking sides,  I’d want to look at their CVs, academic careers.   I’d want to also look into voices of dissent, and at the qualifications of dissenters.

It is then possible, I agree, that I might form the opinion myself that we are probably screwed, and I might start encouraging government to think about unscrewing us.   But how can children make up their minds which scientists are to be trusted and which not?

This is relevant to SARS-CoV-2.   I’d not be surprised if scientific opinion started to diverge, leaving governments to decide which scientists to believe.   There’s then the same danger, that the choice of paths is made based on public opinion and best chances of getting re-elected, which is the least scientific approach of all.

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 15, 2020, 05:38:06 PM
Did get some good news today.  Despite what the GP surgery said, mum got both an e-mail from Sainsburys saying they were informed she is vulnerable, plus the GP letter.

So it seems the criteria is NOT as limited as the online documentation implies after all.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 15, 2020, 06:07:13 PM
Did get some good news today.  Despite what the GP surgery said, mum got both an e-mail from Sainsburys saying they were informed she is vulnerable, plus the GP letter.

So it seems the criteria is NOT as limited as the online documentation implies after all.

I appreciate that will be a load off your mind, glad to hear it.  :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 16, 2020, 04:05:10 AM
Did get some good news today.  Despite what the GP surgery said, mum got both an e-mail from Sainsburys saying they were informed she is vulnerable, plus the GP letter.

So it seems the criteria is NOT as limited as the online documentation implies after all.

I think there is a way onto these lists outside of the criteria, I got a sms saying similar last week from the gov, although as of yet nothing from the supermarkets, I guess I just need to wait though as is likely a time lag.

I spoke to my GP a short while back who told me he would help me, then days later I had that sms.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 16, 2020, 08:32:15 AM
I think there is a way onto these lists outside of the criteria, I got a sms saying similar last week from the gov, although as of yet nothing from the supermarkets, I guess I just need to wait though as is likely a time lag.

I spoke to my GP a short while back who told me he would help me, then days later I had that sms.

Have you registered with Sainsburys and Ocado?    Whereas most supermarkets just mutter vague hints about priority lists, these two are quite explicit, telling me categorically that I am not on the lists - which is true, in my case.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: jelv on April 16, 2020, 08:54:07 AM
To be fair, the mass demonstrations of children HAS been based on the governments ignoring the science.

And the children are scientifically qualified to make that judgement?

That is a typical ignorant response! The campaign by young people has specifically been saying we don't have the knowledge to make that judgement but we recognise that scientists who work in the relevant fields do. And the almost unanimous opinion of those scientists is that unless we make radical changes we are in deep, deep trouble and it is the lives of the young people who are going to be affected most. Meantime the adults are ignoring the science because the economic consequences will cost them too much now. They don't care that the economic consequences in 20 or 30 years time will be way more because we were slow to act because they'll mostly have died by then.

The whole world is driven by profits NOW with no thought to the long term consequences. The young people have every right to be angry!
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 16, 2020, 09:01:44 AM
I only mentioned the children because I hope we don’t see an equivalent interference of lay people and children taking it upon themselves to tell government how to deal with Covid-19.

And I do very much hope that we don’t, and I hope that their teachers and parents are drumming that into them... “leave it to the scientists, no matter what you see on social media”.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: jelv on April 16, 2020, 09:24:41 AM
Isn't the White House briefing led every day by someone who thinks he knows better than the scientists?  :(

Edit: And his biggest concern is to get the economy restarted.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: tiffy on April 16, 2020, 09:34:03 AM
Quote
And his biggest concern is to get the economy restarted.

In my opinion his biggest concern is to get re-elected !
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 16, 2020, 10:10:15 AM
Isn't the White House briefing led every day by someone who thinks he knows better than the scientists?

I have not heard him say that, but I don’t watch the briefings.

I do know that the early Imperial College model, that appeared to spur our own government into lockdown action, also modelled the American outbreak, with similar catastrophic predictions unless extreme suppression measures were implemented.   

Trump’s actions at the time were broadly consistent with the notion that he might be reacting to that report, although I daresay it was just one of many he was being given.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 16, 2020, 11:11:05 AM
I’m personally finding Sweden’s progress interesting. 

They appear in many ways to be choosing different scientific advice from most countries, with much less strategy stringent suppression policies.  Yet the statistics (measured in cases/deaths per million population) don’t look that bad to me (strictly as a lay person) and may even be levelling off, without overwhelming the hospitals.

In my ideal world, that’s the sort of issue I’d like to see explored in detail with the media coverage, with statistics analysed by real experts rather than journalists, and debunked if appropriate. But I’ve seen very little.

Since journalism is the only source I can find, this one seems more balanced than many... but may still be utter tosh...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/15/sweden-coronavirus-death-toll-reaches-1000
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 17, 2020, 01:56:57 AM
Have you registered with Sainsburys and Ocado?    Whereas most supermarkets just mutter vague hints about priority lists, these two are quite explicit, telling me categorically that I am not on the lists - which is true, in my case.
you cant, they using lists supplied by government

if you mean just been registered as a customer, im not on sainsburies as they closed up, but am on ocado and the rest.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: CarlT on April 17, 2020, 09:25:37 AM
This should get people going. Even more when I've installed the repeater in the loft.

(https://i.ibb.co/Y0y7KRP/WiFi.jpg)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: meritez on April 17, 2020, 11:39:43 AM
This should get people going. Even more when I've installed the repeater in the loft.


A 5G mast, disguised as a house, lets burn it down.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 17, 2020, 11:53:49 AM
This should get people going. Even more when I've installed the repeater in the loft.

(https://i.ibb.co/Y0y7KRP/WiFi.jpg)

Could that count as domestic terrorism?  :lol:
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: CarlT on April 17, 2020, 12:48:07 PM
Could that count as domestic terrorism?  :lol:

Wouldn't be the first time that accusation could be laid at my door given I own the domain jihadist.me.uk :shrug2:
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: j0hn on April 18, 2020, 11:09:43 PM
Up until a few days ago I hadn't heard of anyone I know personally who had caught Covid19.
Then my mum messaged me a few days ago, her best friend Jane was seriously ill in a Covid19 ward.

I've known Jane since I was 10 years old.
A wonderful woman who had helped me many times over the years. She donated me lots of furniture when I moved in to my new home, most of which I still have.

She passed away on Thursday morning.  :'(
I clapped for her that night at 8pm.
R.I.P Jane x

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/health/she-will-be-greatly-missed-tributes-paid-edinburgh-nhs-worker-who-died-covid-19-2541624
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 19, 2020, 12:37:11 AM
Sympathies,  j0hn

We’re relatively out in the sticks, nobody else in direct line of sight, and could easily think we were the only ones out applauding on a thursday.   Until we stop, and realise that what we then hear is not our own echo, it is others unseen people clapping too, from all directions.

Heartfelt thanks, to all of the Janes.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: roseway on April 19, 2020, 07:13:03 AM
I'm really sorry to hear that, j0hn.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: jelv on April 19, 2020, 10:13:55 AM
Wowser! The Sunday Times has really got the knives out for Johnson and the Governments handling of the crisis.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-38-days-when-britain-sleepwalked-into-disaster-hq3b9tlgh

It's behind a paywall but if you register you can read two articles a week for free.

One of the most peachy bits:

Quote
Towards the end of the second week of February, the prime minister was demob happy. After sacking five cabinet ministers and saying everyone “should be confident and calm” about Britain’s response to the virus, Johnson vacated Downing Street after the half-term recess began on February 13.

He headed to the country for a “working” holiday at Chevening with Symonds and would be out of the public eye for 12 days. His aides were thankful for the rest, as they had been working flat-out since the summer as the Brexit power struggle had played out.

The Sunday newspapers that weekend would not have made comfortable reading. The Sunday Times reported on a briefing from a risk specialist that said Public Health England would be overrun during a pandemic as it could test only 1,000 people a day.

Johnson may well have been distracted by matters in his personal life during his stay in the countryside. Aides were told to keep their briefing papers short and cut the number of memos in his red box if they wanted them to be read.

His family needed to be prepared for the announcement that Symonds, who turned 32 in March, was pregnant and that they had been secretly engaged for some time. Relations with his children had been fraught since his separation from his estranged wife Marina Wheeler and the rift had deepened when she received a cancer diagnosis last year.

The divorce also had to be finalised. Midway through the break it was announced in the High Court that the couple had reached a settlement, leaving Wheeler free to apply for divorce.

There were murmurings of frustration from some ministers and their aides at the time that Johnson was not taking more of a lead. But Johnson’s aides are understood to have felt relaxed: he was getting updates and they claim the scientists were saying everything was under control.

Also, did you know we sent 279,000 pieces of PPE to China while the government was in it's misplaced complacency phase?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: g3uiss on April 19, 2020, 10:14:30 AM
Sad news @j0hn. My thoughts are with you.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 19, 2020, 11:59:45 AM
Wowser! The Sunday Times has really got the knives out for Johnson and the Governments handling of the crisis.

I don’t regard the Sunday Times as a source of facts, any more than I regard any other newspaper or TV show as a source of facts.

But even supposing this one, at face value, contained a single seed of truth, which I doubt.   What’s to be gained from publishing it?   In what way does publishing this nonsense help us to move forwards from where we are now?

And what doesn’t help may hinder.

There’s plenty of more useful stuff for editors eager to draw in the readers, such as vaccine research and clinical trials for treatment.    This is just not the time for political points scoring, they should be ashamed of themselves imho.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 19, 2020, 12:07:28 PM
I don’t regard the Sunday Times as a source of facts, any more than I regard any other newspaper or TV show as a source of facts.

But even supposing this one, at face value, contained a single seed of truth, which I doubt.   What’s to be gained from publishing it?   In what way does publishing this nonsense help us to move forwards from where we are now?

And what doesn’t help may hinder.

There’s plenty of more useful stuff for editors eager to draw in the readers, such as vaccine research and clinical trials for treatment.    This is just not the time for political points scoring, they should be ashamed of themselves imho.

Newspapers have always been like this, publishing toxic stories on a daily bases.  It is bad all the time not just when its attacking a government in power during a crisis.

There can be something to gain from this type of story though, governments can be shamed to act sometimes.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: j0hn on April 19, 2020, 12:42:50 PM
Handy site for anyone struggling to book a supermarket delivery.
It checks Tesco, Asda, Waitrose and Iceland.
No need to register, you can just skip entering your email to see the results.
You can pay to be notified when a slot appears if none are available.

https://shoppingslot.co.uk/
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 19, 2020, 01:28:50 PM
how does it work without registering? as slot availability is dependent on local not national capacity.

I Cannot test either currently, seems they got problems. :(

503
Service Unavailable
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: j0hn on April 19, 2020, 01:31:55 PM
Working here. You simply enter your postcode.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on April 19, 2020, 01:35:54 PM
Also worked here, only Iceland had slots available, and surprisingly they were for tomorrow.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 19, 2020, 01:36:34 PM
now its working :) almost

when I clicked skip this step, then get the next 5xx error :(

502 Bad Gateway

Hitting refresh on the results got it loaded.

Same as ronski just iceland for tommorow.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 19, 2020, 03:24:50 PM
Unless the supermarkets agree to notify the website, I don’t see how it can work well?

I’m fairly sure the supermarket sites have ‘bot detection, if that’s what it is called, because if I just keep trying, over and over again, it never works, I never get a slot, as if my ip address has been sent to back of queue.   The occasions on which I have been successful is when I pick up the tablet after a few hours, out of the blue, and then, if I’m very lucky, I get offered a slot on the first attempt.

The other issue they’d face is timing and response, you’d need to be pdq quick, especially if racing against other users.   I’ve noticed, when I occasionally check as above, and find new slots have appeared...  even if I don’t book one,  if I wait about 30 seconds and look again, chances are most if not all slots will have evaporated.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 19, 2020, 03:45:03 PM
Interesting it showed nothing on ocado, yet mins later I was able to book a slot when I checked the site.   I suspect I do have priority now though as supposedly people without priority cannot even login to the site now until early evening.

Also I had a miss call just before midday today from someone on the nhs list team.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 19, 2020, 06:09:02 PM
I can’t get to shoppinglot. Tried to ping it, no luck, tried http(s) connection to the usual ports, no joy, tried a remote ping test https://ping.eu - no joy either.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 19, 2020, 06:11:40 PM
J0hn, my condolences, that’s awful. Our friend Pat who was in hospital with COVID-19 and is quite elderly is back home now, which I’m incredibly grateful for.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 20, 2020, 03:42:08 AM
I can’t get to shoppinglot. Tried to ping it, no luck, tried http(s) connection to the usual ports, no joy, tried a remote ping test https://ping.eu - no joy either.

yeah its up and down, I had another 503 when I tried it again about an hour later.  They likely getting overwhelmed with demand for the service.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 20, 2020, 08:53:08 AM
I had to go out yesterday to get petrol for my lawnmower, which included driving past Waitrose.

On a normal Sunday, the car park would be full and queuing, but it was largely deserted.    Looking through the window, it looked pretty empty inside.   Yet Waitrose seem to have completely stopped delivering to anybody not on the ‘vulnerable’ list, so how are all the healthy people getting groceries?

Makes me wonder whether an awful lot of people have found an angle to get themselves onto the ‘vulnerable’ list?   A bit like the number of incredibly fit professional racing cyclists who turn out to suffer from terrible Asthma, which happens to be treated with steroids.

Or maybe they conveniently have a vulnerable relative living nearby, or a neighbour on the list, and get their deliveries by proxy?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: roseway on April 20, 2020, 09:51:30 AM
Waitrose reserve some new slots for over-70s and the otherwise vulnerable, but only for a short time. After that these slots become available for anyone.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 20, 2020, 10:04:42 AM
Maybe there’s regional differences then, but I haven’t seen a Waitrose slot for weeks.

I note the availability list invariable shows “fully booked” for the next three days, and “unavailable” thereafter.   It would be interesting to know if the same “fully booked” vs “unavailable” distinction shows for their prioritised customers?

I’ve not tried to get myself listed.   Not yet 70 but my lungs have never been great after being hospitalised with pneumonia as an infant, then childhood asthma etc, and I suffer from a couple of other more modern ‘at risk’ conditions too.   Yet compared to my neighbour who recently had a multiple organ transplant, there is no way I can justify declaring myself to be in that category.   And anyway, I doubt if my pneumonia shows on any records.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: jelv on April 20, 2020, 10:13:30 AM
On a normal Sunday, the car park would be full and queuing, but it was largely deserted.    Looking through the window, it looked pretty empty inside.   Yet Waitrose seem to have completely stopped delivering to anybody not on the ‘vulnerable’ list, so how are all the healthy people getting groceries?

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 20, 2020, 10:50:47 AM
Or maybe they conveniently have a vulnerable relative living nearby, or a neighbour on the list, and get their deliveries by proxy?

That would be unlikely to work considering how few and far between slots are and I'd expect there are limits to how much of products you can buy it a single delivery.

Waitrose don't deliver in our area but if we were reliant on supermarket deliveries alone, we would have run out of bog roll weeks ago as we use WAY more than they let you order due to medical issues.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: roseway on April 20, 2020, 11:45:29 AM
Maybe there’s regional differences then, but I haven’t seen a Waitrose slot for weeks.

I note the availability list invariable shows “fully booked” for the next three days, and “unavailable” thereafter.   It would be interesting to know if the same “fully booked” vs “unavailable” distinction shows for their prioritised customers?

I checked just now after receiving a delivery this morning. I see available slots from 25 April until well into May, and a very small number of "unavailable". I don't really know what the latter means, but I'm guessing that it means slots which are free but not yet released.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 20, 2020, 11:57:26 AM
I had to go out yesterday to get petrol for my lawnmower, which included driving past Waitrose.

On a normal Sunday, the car park would be full and queuing, but it was largely deserted.    Looking through the window, it looked pretty empty inside.   Yet Waitrose seem to have completely stopped delivering to anybody not on the ‘vulnerable’ list, so how are all the healthy people getting groceries?

Makes me wonder whether an awful lot of people have found an angle to get themselves onto the ‘vulnerable’ list?   A bit like the number of incredibly fit professional racing cyclists who turn out to suffer from terrible Asthma, which happens to be treated with steroids.

Or maybe they conveniently have a vulnerable relative living nearby, or a neighbour on the list, and get their deliveries by proxy?

more likely you just went by on a quiet time of day, the vast majority of people are still going into shops, the supermarkets dont have the capacity to deliver to any more than a minority of people.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 20, 2020, 11:59:08 AM
They lifted some of the per-item limits a few weeks ago, and whereas Tesco limit to 80 items overall, I don't remember Waitrose doing that.  Might be wrong. 

Since we have started offering to help out elderly neighbours when we do get a Tesco slot, and we've sometimes gone nearly three weeks at a time, we can get close to their 80 items limit.  Annoying thing is that as a green gimmick, predating all this, Tesco started doing away with packaged multipacks.  So for example, when we first started ordering, a 4x pack of Pot Noodle was one item.  You'd now use up 4 items in such a purchase. :(

Had a bit of a traffic jam in the driveway this morning.  Large Parcel Force van bringing electronic components coincided with another large van bringing beer.  At least the beer van driver was able to quiz the Parcel Force driver as to location of a house I'd never heard of. ::)

I checked just now after receiving a delivery this morning. I see available slots from 25 April until well into May, and a very small number of "unavailable". I don't really know what the latter means, but I'm guessing that it means slots which are free but not yet released.

That does then sound like my own three-day-ahead restriction is either due to the fact I am not yet 70, or regional variations.  Right now, as it has been for several weeks, anything beyond three days is simply 'unavailable', and anything within three days is fully booked.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 20, 2020, 05:59:54 PM
Moral dilemma...

You have successfully added one extra large cauliflower, your very favourite vegetable, to your Tesco home delivery basket.

A couple of days before delivery you call your elderly neighbours to ask if they’d like to add anything.   They ask you to add milk, bread, eggs, and... a cauliflower.

When adding these items, you are notified that extra large cauliflowers are now unavailable, so you downgrade your own cauliflower to small, 2 x small in total.

Upon delivery you are supplied, by mistake, with just one small cauliflower.  What do you do?

1  Explain to your neighbour that their cauliflower order did not succeed?
2  Take it on the chin, give them the cauliflower?
3  Fess up, and take half a cauliflower each?

I went for (3).  Next delivery nearly two weeks off and not sure I could last that long with no cauliflower at all.  :D

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on April 20, 2020, 09:03:19 PM
Janet went to the Coop this morning to stock up on the usual supplies. While she was in there she had a sudden - innocent - tickly cough. She thought "I’m going to be regarded as a leper!", so she had to go into the toilets before she could cough in peace
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 23, 2020, 05:39:48 PM
According to BBC, B&Q have decided to start opening stores...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52393074

As far as I am aware, Govt rules and guidance remain the same...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/full-guidance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others/full-guidance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others
Quote
Stay at home
Only go outside for food, health reasons or work (but only if you cannot work from home)
If you go out, stay 2 metres (6ft) away from other people at all times
Wash your hands as soon as you get home

B&Q washrooms are actually quite well maintained in my experience so hand washing may even be possible in store, and it might be possible to observe the 2 metre gap most of the time.   But I wonder, how often is there a food or health reason for visiting B&Q?   :-X

It’ll be interesting to watch the stats in a couple of weeks, to see if events like this cause a spike.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: j0hn on April 23, 2020, 05:58:52 PM
Trades (plumbers, electricians) are still working and need somewhere to buy materials and parts.

The government thinks shops like B&Q are essential.

From the Screwfix website.

Quote
On Monday 23rd March, Screwfix was categorised as an essential retailer by the Government. We are open with a range of products to help keep homes warm, safe and with power, and to support you with the products you need at home. Please use Click & Collect for safe contactless pick up at store. Wherever possible please use our Home Delivery service to reduce non-essential travel.

Edit: from the B&Q website

Quote
Having watched other essential retailers support social distancing in their stores, we are now in a position to follow best practice and re-open some stores, while keeping our colleagues and customers safe. See list here.  Our aim us to provide the best possible service and help customers look after their homes and gardens, as well as their wellbeing, at this difficult time.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 23, 2020, 06:21:15 PM
@John, yes I agree.

But by opening the main doors, as opposed to just the trade only doors, B&Q may tempt ‘average people’ like myself to venture out.   Yet I’m not convinced such trips, by average public, are permitted within guidelines.

I’m certainly not sure I’d like to face a police spot-check in my car as they’ve been doing on some roads asking me the essential purpose of my journey, if the best answer I can find is “buying paint at B&Q”. :-X

Per responsible trade activity as an example, our dishwasher packed in last week.  The manufacturer won’t supply me the parts or send an engineer to fix it as a domestic dishwasher is not regarded as an essential appliance.   A fridge, or a cooker, they’d have fixed it.   Quite reasonable, imho, even though I’m already sick of washing up.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: g3uiss on April 23, 2020, 06:49:09 PM
My wife works for the NHS, she is dedicated but struggling with worries about infections and bringing them home.

Today on her day off, she got a parking fine for an alleged breach on private land on the 5th of January!

It was dated 18 April. I’m disgusted that they can do this from months ago, at a time when nobody needs it. She burst into tears.

I will be writing a strong email.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 23, 2020, 07:44:38 PM
Re that parking issue how can parking sharks, in all honesty, claim that their contribution to society is essential and should continue during lockdown?   >:(

High horses aside, might be worth checking the rules/guidelines on notification periods.    Not sure but I think intended Police prosecutions under the Road Traffic Acts have to be notified within 14 days, including police-enforced parking fines.

With decriminalisation of offences like parking and yellow boxes  local councils were able to ignore the 14 days but tended to observe it voluntarily.    Private parking sharks never had anything to do with the law so the 14 days period was irrelevant but industry guidelines, with which they ought to comply, suggested restraint.

Emphasise, that’s just from memory.  Might be utter codswallop.   :blush:
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: g3uiss on April 23, 2020, 08:04:08 PM
@7lm yes the notice period is voluntary for private.

It’s a pity there isn’t a mechanism to disgrace them publicly. I will email them, but we have enough issues so will likely pay.

They do say they will issue court proceedings, I suspect that can only be “claim on line” the old small claims, tempted to let them, I’m sure they would get short changed thru that process, and more likely to attract attention. Really disappointed with the whole thing, we don’t and can’t deal with it at the moment

Stay safe

Tony
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 23, 2020, 08:04:23 PM
Is no surprise 7lm, my area has almost normal activity now, people blatantly flouting the lockdown, and the press keep pushing it for it to be lifted, the numbers have barely levelled off, so it seems the population will find out the hard way over the coming months.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 23, 2020, 08:08:16 PM
We’ve just opened the patio doors, to applaud.   Slightly surreal as being a village location we can’t actually see anybody else but by golly, we can hear them.  I’d say tonight was the best so far.

I just find it a rather nice thought, that any healthcare staff or other essential workers, who happened to drive through the village at the right time, would hear it too. :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: jelv on April 23, 2020, 10:12:52 PM
Over the last few days we've been busy making a new kite. Around 7:30pm we were on the top of Castle Hill, Mere to check it flew OK - there was barely enough wind. By 7:45 what wind there was had totally gone - but we hung on in hope. This was taken while we waited for some wind.

(https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/94435763_928574407607462_5481827945712451584_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=OE5Rieuf-MoAX-buqk4&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&_nc_tp=7&oh=ce979f3b96d31333141a4c525431aa7f&oe=5EC937BD)

About a minute to 8pm a lovely breeze picked up and it flew beautifully straight up to around 150ft. Taking photos of it in the air was tricky as it was flying directly towards the setting sun - this was taken as we brought it down when people had stopped clapping. A few minutes later the wind had totally disappeared again.

(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/p720x720/94274954_928607620937474_3769207434329980928_o.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_sid=1480c5&_nc_ohc=LDRcFoPZGWMAX9-U-Bf&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&_nc_tp=6&oh=1dfffba0efd9b7dbb409b3ad661d19ed&oe=5EC686C2)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 23, 2020, 11:03:05 PM
I really don't with making as much noise as possible.  The last two weeks I've not been feeling well and got woken up by the neighbours settings off fireworks.

If I'd been an NHS worker trying to get a few minutes shut-eye between shifts, not sure I'd appreciate it either.

There is a point where it becomes disruptive rather than supportive.  I've also seem a nasty trend of it encouraging people to ignore social distancing around communal buildings.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 24, 2020, 12:36:27 AM
It’s hard to put one’s self in another’s shoes.   

But can’t help wondering... NHS workers, stressed to breaking point and struggling to sleep... Of all the things that might awaken them, from the dawn chorus of birds in the trees to nightmares reliving the past day’s events, would the sound of distant applause be so unwelcome even if it momentarily awakened them?

I guess it’s possible, but I’ve not heard any of them say it is the case.   Personally, I’ll continue, until the care workers themselves show the slightest hint that they’d like me to stop.

Fireworks of course are another matter.  People who set off excessively loud ones anytime, or even normal fireworks anytime other than Guy Fawkes night, should receive compulsory training on acceptable British tradition and cultural habits.  But that is true regardless of the threat from SARS-CoV-2.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 24, 2020, 02:22:12 AM
It’s hard to put one’s self in another’s shoes.   

But can’t help wondering... NHS workers, stressed to breaking point and struggling to sleep... Of all the things that might awaken them, from the dawn chorus of birds in the trees to nightmares reliving the past day’s events, would the sound of distant applause be so unwelcome even if it momentarily awakened them?

Applause is fine, but people banging pots and pans, setting off fireworks, generally just making as much noise as possible - its just utterly insensitive and is pure competitiveness "oh look, I support the NHS more than you do".  Its not supposed to be a competition and shows a severe lack of consideration for others.

Incidentally, I'm fine when my sleep pattern is off and someone knocks at the door, or the neighbours do DIY, loud music even, that's perfectly understandable.  But when its noise for noises sake, it rubs me up the wrong way.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on April 24, 2020, 06:36:51 AM
Think I heard clapping for first time yesterday, was faint.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 27, 2020, 05:35:09 PM
Every Thursday I try to applaud key heroic key workers, including NHS.

But one thing the NHS has never been able to do, is write software or provide IT.  Pretty much everything they have done in IT has descended into farce.    That’s nothing for them to be ashamed of, I applaud them for health services and I rely on them for health, not phone apps.

But I do find it deeply worrying that when it comes to coronavirus tracking, NHS apparently think they know better than Google and Apple.  I very strongly suspect that they don’t.  :o

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52441428





Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: broadstairs on April 27, 2020, 07:42:14 PM
Yes BUT I worry about Apple and Google using the data for nefarious reasons, I don't trust either of them on this.

Stuart
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 27, 2020, 07:48:37 PM
Apple and Google already know your every move and have done for years.  I’m not saying not to worry about it, but it’s no reason to let the NHS fubar our Coronavirus progress.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Bowdon on April 27, 2020, 07:54:57 PM
Something I have found odd is this vulnerable persons list. I'm on it. But I got an email from Sainsbury that went to an old email address that I have never entered on any government form. It was one of the first email addresses I had from yahoo. It was a throwaway account that I kept using. So it has a made up name attached to it. But in the email they address it with my mothers first name even though she isn't on the vulnerable peoples list.

It took me many days and constantly prompting Sainsbury on twitter to get them to check it was a genuine email. It was.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 04, 2020, 05:23:57 PM
Seems that all supermarkets around here have now completely stopped offering delivery slots, other than to the chosen few on the ‘vulnerable’ list. I haven’t seen a single new slot come up at any of them for about two weeks now.

That’s a deeply flawed strategy, imho.   Quite apart from the question of how accurate is the list, and how open it may be to fraudulent registrations, it completely fails to help those most in need... which are the people who are in self-isolation with symptoms of infection.  :'(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: renluop on May 04, 2020, 07:02:35 PM
Like, I Guess most others of my vintage. I just want to get on with the rest of my life. In in fancy real dangers lurked, more definite thsn some theory out of a fevered brain. Doubtlessly dsngers exist, but I do not want tolive in fear and mistrust.

Covid free, but cofined due to age and back pain since equinox,and a day in hospitsl for testd; imrovement was so slow, and I was getting incoherent to wife's and nearby daughter's concern.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 06, 2020, 08:12:01 AM
No idea why this is a minor item on BBC page, but...

Neil Ferguson has resigned as govt advisor.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52553229

This is the guy who’s model persuaded our own govt, as well as others worldwide, to implement the suppression policies, aka lockdown.  He even got the message through to Donald Trump.   His model was used to force China to admit the initial scale in Wuhan.   

He seems to have been forced out by a Daily Telegraph smear on his personal life.   You might or might not feel any sympathy, but how the heck will we get on without him?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: jelv on May 06, 2020, 09:05:53 AM
Coincidence that this story appeared on the day that the number of deaths passed that of Italy?

Could somebody remind me how the Telegraph covered the story of Boris knocking up his girlfriend while his wife is recovering from cancer please.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 06, 2020, 09:50:35 AM
Coincidence that this story appeared on the day that the number of deaths passed that of Italy?

That’s what BBC and other UK trashy providers, said.    Truth is that San Marino, Belgium, Andorra, Italy and Spain all have currently higher death rates than the UK, as ratio of population.

Source..   https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/  - click on deaths per 1M pop.

Source is believed credible and reliable, has been referenced by Imperial College research teams.

USA is currently in 14th place, despite other BBC nonsense that imho verges upon ‘fake news’.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on May 06, 2020, 03:54:58 PM
I think the USA is benefiting from their population being more spread out.  I fear they will catch up eventually thanks to the religious nuts who are still insisting on going to church.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 06, 2020, 04:41:12 PM
To  be fair to Americans, I know quite a few, and none of the ones I know are nuts, religious or otherwise.  But there are over 300 million of them, so I’m sure the odd nut can be found for the sake of making them all look silly.

Getting back to Prof Ferguson, being forced to resign for breaking the lockdown rules imposed by Boris on his own advice.  Isn’t it comparable to a group of airline passengers throwing the only pilot out of window, halfway across the Atlantic, because he got caught doing something bad?.

Sticking with that analogy, I’m waiting for a version of the classic tannoy announcement joke..  “This is your stewardess Prime minister speaking.  Would anybody who knows how to land an aircraft advise on managing a global pandemic please make themselves known?” ::)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 08, 2020, 01:08:28 AM
I’m really alarmed that NHS are forging ahead with their own contract tracing App.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/05/uk_coronavirus_app/

I really don’t care about privacy, as is being hyped in media coverage.  Governments already know all there is to be known about individuals, as do Apple and Google.   Privacy is a lost cause.   I just want an App that will help to keep Covid 19 under control, and I refuse to believe that NHS know more about mobile technology than Google and Apple.

My understanding is that NHS started working on an App before Apple and Google collaborated on a native interface common to both Android and iOS.    And in best NHS tradition, even when it was clear there was a better option, they ploughed on regardless.

I’m afraid I did not applaud the NHS this week. :(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on May 08, 2020, 05:37:41 AM
To  be fair to Americans, I know quite a few, and none of the ones I know are nuts, religious or otherwise.  But there are over 300 million of them, so I’m sure the odd nut can be found for the sake of making them all look silly.

I have a friend in Texas and he can't even convince his own family to behave. :(  His parents are ardent fox news enthusiasts.  :no:

I'm also thinking of things like over easter "in at least eight states, religious organisations have been granted exemptions from stay-at-home orders as essential services, some after legal and political battles. In Kansas lawmakers revoked the governor's order to limit religious gatherings to 10 people."
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on May 08, 2020, 07:07:11 AM
Well, Darwin wipes out all of the morons at such gatherings in one fell swoop, so couldn’t be better  ;)  Just a dreadful shame about the other people who get caught up in the outcome as collateral damage.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: jelv on May 08, 2020, 08:36:17 AM
I’m afraid I did not applaud the NHS this week. :(

The point is to applaud the NHS frontline workers - not the organisation!
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 08, 2020, 08:46:08 AM
From my position of very vague understanding , I’m very grateful that the UK Govt went for a lockdown policy, and did so at an early stage.  That is definitely what I want, and I hope it continues for a long while yet.

But I also think we need to respect that different countries are free to adopt different approaches.  Sweden, for example, has had no actual lockdown. Afaik, bars and restaurants remain open.   Yet, based on my own understanding of the stats, they are not doing that bad...

Sweden:  R_t showing as 0.98 at time of posting, UK showing 0.84.
source
https://mrc-ide.github.io/covid19-short-term-forecasts/index.html#projections-and-effective-reproduction-number-estimates

Sweden:  Death rate 301 per million pop.  Compares with UK’s 451, and Belgium’s 726.

Source
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

I’ve said it a few times, but I really wish the BBC or other channels could dig up some serious, grown up, technical journalists to talk us through these issues and numbers, and how the evidence for lockdowns is stacking up.   Even the old Blue Peter teams such as Noakes, Purves and Singleton would do a far better job of explaining Covid stats than anything any modern broadcaster seems able to muster. :'(

The point is to applaud the NHS frontline workers - not the organisation!

And all I said was, that I did not applaud the NHS this week.

I will personally continue to applaud all frontline staff, from healthcare workers through delivery services, to refuse collection crews, and more.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on May 08, 2020, 11:23:25 AM
It all depends what angle you look at it from. https://www.euronews.com/2020/04/12/is-sweden-s-covid-19-strategy-working

As for respecting other countries approaches, that's fine when hundreds of thousands of lives aren't at stake and the country in question (the US) are at least using a scientific approach rather than pandering to capitalist overlords.  This is particularly relevant when said country were recently making a big fuss about anti-abortion, but apparently its okay to let people die from a pandemic because that's gods will.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: displaced on May 08, 2020, 11:49:15 AM
Comparing different countries’ approaches is really tough.

For example, northern Italy was hit hard despite not being particularly densely populated. But Italian social norms involve a lot of close groups of people and physical contact (getting together for food, cheek-kissing for greetings, etc).

Sweden’s lack of lockdown may have been mitigated by the fact that as a society, they are more ‘distant’ than average, with a certain base level of social distancing and the highest number of single-occupant households in Europe.

There are so many behavioural variables that would affect the spread of a virus.

What *severely* irks me is when countries had expertly-researched, painstakingly-modelled plans for what to do in the event of an emerging novel virus... which were not acted on.  The dogs-dinner of a job we’ve made of the simple task of maintaining a stockpile of PPE is frankly embarrassing.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 08, 2020, 05:29:41 PM
One thing that really made my blood boil was when the Govt caved into media and political pressure, and started including care home deaths in the stats.

Some other countries include care-home deaths suspected to be Covid-related in their stats, some do not.  Some include such deaths at home, some do not.   I’ve no strong feelings which approach is right, I’m not even remotely qualified to have an opinion on the topic.

What really mattered to me was ongoing consistency allowing one weeks’ numbers to be compared with the next.  But suddenly, UK having having moved the goal posts half way through, that became very difficult (for me, at least).
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on May 09, 2020, 05:05:04 AM
Surely ALL deaths should be included, period?

What really mattered to me was ongoing consistency allowing one weeks’ numbers to be compared with the next.  But suddenly, UK having having moved the goal posts half way through, that became very difficult (for me, at least).

That is a fair point though.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 09, 2020, 09:14:31 AM
Surely ALL deaths should be included, period?

I’ve no idea and will resist guessing, but there must be some reason why some countries choose to only count confirmed deaths in hospital.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: CarlT on May 09, 2020, 11:24:06 AM
Mostly stats collection issues. The UK's ONS is better than most as far as the timeliness of statistics on deaths go.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 09, 2020, 05:54:05 PM
I notice Sainsburys are beginning to offer delivery slots again to those outside the ‘chosen few’.

Pretty useless as these slots only seem to cover the next 7 days, and very few are available.   For home delivery to work sensibly you need to plan more than 7 days ahead.  You need to know when the one after next is coming, else you have no idea how much to order.  But better than nothing.

I did get one more Tesco slot booked, due in about a fortnight.   I happened to awaken at about 2am one night, picked up the iPad, and found some slots.  Booked one then checked again a few mins later, all gone.    Unfortunately I have tried the experiment tried several times, and nothing to suggest the 2am trick is repeatable.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on May 09, 2020, 11:02:46 PM
Sainsburys are particularly bad, for example they only let you order three bottles of milk.  As the milk I drink only comes in 750ml bottles, how the heck is that supposed to last a week?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 10, 2020, 12:05:28 AM
One technique I’ve adopted, when viewing supermarket search results, is to sort by order of price, most expensive first.

That way it’s easy to find the multipacks.   And whereas you might be limited to say, three items of your favourite beer, if each ‘item’ is a pack of 12 bottles, it works out to be adequate.

Trouble with Tesco is, as a green gimmick predating Coronavirus, to reduce packaging, they started unbundling the multipacks. :(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: burakkucat on May 10, 2020, 12:15:16 AM
Trouble with Tesco is, as a green gimmick predating Coronavirus, to reduce packaging, they started unbundling the multipacks. :(

But they were (using cans of tomato soup, for example) showing a price for four cans which was equal to the price of the plastic-wrapped multipack and not a price for four individual cans. (Hopefully that sentence makes sense . . . I'm sure I'll be told if it cannot be parsed.)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on May 10, 2020, 12:17:26 AM
But they were (using cans of tomato soup, for example) showing a price for four cans which was equal to the price of the plastic-wrapped multipack and not a price for four individual cans. (Hopefully that sentence makes sense . . . I'm sure I'll be told if it cannot be parsed.)

Problem is, they seem to be poorly implementing item restrictions because their online system was never designed for the scenario we found ourselves in.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 10, 2020, 12:32:51 AM
(Hopefully that sentence makes sense . . . I'm sure I'll be told if it cannot be parsed.)

I’m struggling a little, if I am honest, but I struggle with simplest of things these days.  ::)

But per deceptive pricing, and deceptive green-ness, I think Waitrose win hands down. I like Nescafe gold blend instant coffee, which can be purchased either in wasteful throw-away glass jars, or in loosely packaged refills.   When I look at the price per gram on Waitrose shelves, despite the ‘bargain’ stickers, it is nearly always cheaper to buy a new glass jar rather than a refill. :'(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on May 10, 2020, 12:58:22 AM
I’m struggling a little, if I am honest, but I struggle with simplest of things these days.  ::)

But per deceptive pricing, and deceptive green-ness, I think Waitrose win hands down. I like Nescafe gold blend instant coffee, which can be purchased either in wasteful throw-away glass jars, or in loosely packaged refills.   When I look at the price per gram on Waitrose shelves, despite the ‘bargain’ stickers, it is nearly always cheaper to buy a new glass jar rather than a refill. :'(

Glass can be recycled though, the packets probably cannot as they will be wax/plastic coated.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 10, 2020, 01:08:36 AM
Glass can be recycled though, the packets probably cannot as they will be wax/plastic coated.

Nonsense, you have been watching too much BBC TV.   :D
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on May 10, 2020, 01:17:07 AM
Nonsense, you have been watching too much BBC TV.   :D

Okay I will put it another way.

Our local council waste collection will accept glass, but they will NOT accept paper that has had any food product on/in it nor do I believe they accept paper with wax/plastic coating.

Glass can also be safely washed and reused (not that recyclers do this) whereas plastic and paper cannot.

The only reason glass is out of favour is the transport cost is high and breakage.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 10, 2020, 08:22:14 AM
Our local council waste collection will accept glass, but they will NOT accept paper that has had any food product on/in it nor do I believe they accept paper with wax/plastic coating.

Pretty sure they have a legal obligation to accept normal household waste, though they may choose not to recycle it.

As you say, glass is heavier and so environmental footprint from distribution transport is higher.   It is also bulkier when empty, taking up more space in the trucks and shipping that deliver packaging materials to the coffee maker, which is another environmental hit.    It also takes up more space and weight in the garbage collection trucks, same effects.

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 10, 2020, 08:40:27 AM
Just seen an advert for today’s Andrew Marr show.   Seems he’ll be talking to Prof Peter Horby, who appears to be a top man in clinical trials of treatments.

Might be worth watching, and a welcome break from BBC’s incessant and pointless whinging about PPE and testing capacity.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on May 10, 2020, 03:16:32 PM
Pretty sure they have a legal obligation to accept normal household waste, though they may choose not to recycle it.

As you say, glass is heavier and so environmental footprint from distribution transport is higher.   It is also bulkier when empty, taking up more space in the trucks and shipping that deliver packaging materials to the coffee maker, which is another environmental hit.    It also takes up more space and weight in the garbage collection trucks, same effects.

Yes I was talking specifically of recycling, its possibly a none-issue as Sheffield supposedly burn household waste for the district heating and electricity generation, so paper doesn't exactly go to waste (so to speak).
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 15, 2020, 04:21:32 PM
The govt have been saying reproductive number is below 1.  Can anybody tell me what data source they are using?

Imperial college’s latest estimate, at 10th May, UK’s R_t (‘t’ means realtime) was estimated to be 1.03, in range from 0.78 to 1.36.     

Imperial’ also predicted the death rate would increase the following week from 10th May, from 3456 to 3620.  Increased deaths so soon can’t  be a result of relaxing the lockdown a few days ago, as it takes several weeks to die after being infected.  It’s far too soon for that to be cause & effect. :-\

Source:   

https://mrc-ide.github.io/covid19-short-term-forecasts/index.html#projections-and-effective-reproduction-number-estimates

Note that above document is updated weekly, so the numbers within it may change.  I’m quoting numbers from 10th May.

I’m not suggesting anybody’s fiddling the numbers, but wondering...  has  Imperial college scientists and their models fallen out of favour?  That could have quite big implications.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on May 15, 2020, 08:55:03 PM
Am thinking about starting to advertise again in my wife’s accommodation business. It will be complicated because we will have to make sure people are aware that there’s no guarantee when we will be able to reopen, and so they will just be making reservations of a preferred  time slot so they get the date that they want with refund if we are not allowed to operate (force majeur) by that time. Just got ~3k today to live on from the government which is for three months gone, so that isn’t going to keep us in champagne and caviar. The bio security for reopening will have to be elaborate, with ridiculous cleaning, no shared facilities and time gaps between guests. Also plain English t+c elaborate too. Will be taking legal advice on it all. I think we have to be advertising so people can start looking ahead. Some people who are in lockdown will be getting stir crazy and be wanting a break in a safe - incredibly ‘distanced’ - place. Decided that the Gaelic for social distancing is astarachd or astarachd shóisealta, or simply the much more natural and down-to-earth cumail fad o chéile.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 15, 2020, 11:31:55 PM
@Weaver, the press such as BBC is full of speculation about a second wave of infections.

In fact the original Imperial College proposals for lockdowns was that the measures would be repeatedly turned up, and turned down, via on/off triggers, until full public vaccination is possible.  The triggers would be  in response to changing conditions.  In other words, forget about the second wave, there will be multiple waves one after the other, hopefully no bigger than we’ve seen so far.

There will of course be a degree of hysteresis between the on switches and the off switches.  So at times, infection rates will be high, with people still allowed to do things.  Then an off switch be triggered, but only after new outbreaks emerge, and we’ll lock down again until it subsides.   

I think that’s why they are now saying “stay alert”.   If the next year or two does follow that pattern, do you really want to be encouraging visitors to visit your community?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on May 15, 2020, 11:55:06 PM
I quite agree. We’ll have to see how it goes until we decide. We’ll be following the Scottish Government advice. I’m afraid it’s way too late about protecting Skye; there has been a disastrous event in Port Rìgh where many people have died, so Janet tells me.

I’m dissuading Janet but she is frustrated. Janet tells me that Scotland may be rather more responsible and restrictive than England.

So much is uncertain now.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 16, 2020, 12:17:49 AM
Despite my proud Scottish heritage, education and upbringing, I’d caution against giving too much credence to their government’s scientific analysis of the pandemic.   I nowadays live in a small rural English village.  We have a parish council, a bit like the Scottish government.   I trust our parish council for lots of things such as provision of roadside benches but, for Covid-19 tactics, I turn to central government.

No offence intended (though undoubtable caused) to Scotland or its government.  Repeat, I was born, raised and educated in Scotland to University, by Scottish parents, of Scottish grandparents.  And more than 40 years on, I still call it home. :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on May 16, 2020, 01:07:54 PM
To clarify: What I meant about following the Scottish government is that I am expecting them to be more cautious than the english as less concerned with profit over safety, for fairly illogical reasons. And I have to follow Scottish law, in that they say whether or not we have to remain closed and they decide whether or not we get any state aid during the pandemic.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 16, 2020, 05:30:49 PM
I simply smell a rat when the Scottish (and Welsh) governments state that the whole of Scotland(/Wales), based on arbitrary geographic land borders, needs to be treated differently from the rest of the country.

If they said, for (fictional) example, that Inverness needed to be treated differently from Glasgow owing to regional variations in R, that might make sense.   Similarly, the UK government might, in time, decide that different areas of England merit different approaches, I think that’s been mooted.   

But the whole of Scotland requiring different treatment from rest of UK based just on whether the name of the motorway has changed from M6 to M74...  How can that be based on science?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: tickmike on May 16, 2020, 10:49:34 PM
Am thinking about starting to advertise again in my wife’s accommodation business.

With due respect do you want 'An-other' who maybe carrying the virus anywhere near you property with your health issues. ?   :no:  :-\

Stay safe.

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on May 16, 2020, 11:31:01 PM
Answer to tickMike. In a word, "no".  :(

Would be having elaborate separation protocols but it’s still a really bad idea. My wife is diabetic too, which puts her at risk. It’s down to the government forcing us to go back to work even when it isn’t safe or else we starve.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 16, 2020, 11:58:18 PM
I sympathise Weaver, but the government won’t force anybody to go back to work.  Economic necessity may compel people to choose to return to work, but you can’t blame that on the government.    Govt cannot continue forever to bankroll people who are not working, as that would require an infinite amount of borrowing.

My understanding is that the plan all along was, during the lulls between the multiple waves of infection that we can expect to see, when the statistical risk is low, the government will allow people to go back to work, if they so choose.   When it gets too risky again, people will most probably be told for a while to stop going to work again until that wave passes, and so the cycle will repeat.  The BBC will of course scream that “The Government keeps changing its mind!”, just laugh when that happens.

I personally share your caution.  Both of us here also have several health conditions that significantly increase the statistical risk, even though we don’t qualify as ‘highly vulnerable’.  For that reason we intend to continue quarantining ourselves until the pandemic is over, maybe a year or two, and even during the lulls when govt says we don’t have to do so.   That is our choice, and govt won’t take it away, but we will have to finance that choice out of our own pockets.

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: j0hn on May 17, 2020, 05:23:40 PM
I simply smell a rat when the Scottish (and Welsh) governments state that the whole of Scotland(/Wales), based on arbitrary geographic land borders, needs to be treated differently from the rest of the country.

Wouldn't the rat be a big fat blonde rat who lives in Downing Street then?

The United Kingdom (and Great Britain) isn't a country and the border isn't arbitrary.

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all decided to keep the lockdown based on the scientific/medical advise available to them.

Scotland makes its own laws (it always has) and it runs its own healthcare.
Why shouldn't the devolved Nations decide their own lockdown policy?

The infection rate per 100,000 people is considerably lower in Scotland. I trust how the Scottish government is handling things.

I'm in the shielding category and would rather they not juggle health and the economy.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 17, 2020, 05:55:25 PM
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all decided to keep the lockdown based on the scientific/medical advise available to them.

Whenever I have cited scientific advice in this thread, I have provided a link to an academic source.   I have seen nothing to persuade me, as a layperson,  that Scotland and Wales are acting upon genuine scientific advice, but would be happy to consider a meaningful link to any such source.   

The Scottish government have a long established track record of very obviously adopting policy solely on the basis that it runs contrary to national policy, and especially adopting policy that they think might embarrass the Westminster government.  That may be fair game in normal politics.  All is fair in love war and politics, but it’s not an approach that will help us to fight coronavirus. 

I might be doing Ms Sturgeon a disservice, maybe she really believes Scotland is different, and has the scientific data to uphold that.   But if so, she would have done better to keep her disagreement private, rather than making herself look foolish by publicly criticising her own prime minister.

Northern Ireland may be different.  Viruses definitely won’t respect roadside signs as a boundary to their progress, but they might accept the sea as an impediment.

The debate as to whether Scotland is a country, or a nation, or neither, is an interesting one, to which I’d enthusiastically contribute.  But somewhat off topic.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: g3uiss on May 17, 2020, 09:21:31 PM
Whenever I have cited scientific advice in this thread, I have provided a link to an academic source.   I have seen nothing to persuade me, as a layperson,  that Scotland and Wales are acting upon genuine scientific advice, but would be happy to consider a meaningful link to any such source.   

The Scottish government have a long established track record of very obviously adopting policy solely on the basis that it runs contrary to national policy, and especially adopting policy that they think might embarrass the Westminster government.  That may be fair game in normal politics.  All is fair in love war and politics, but it’s not an approach that will help us to fight coronavirus. 
It’s all about politics in Scotland. Ms Sturgen sees this as a route to independence not a rioute to public health

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 17, 2020, 09:59:56 PM
Today’s death UK toll is reported as 170, the lowest since 24th March.

Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

I don’t think that statistic is as helpful as we might hope as it reflects the deaths reported today, rather than the date they occurred. In worst case scenario, there may have been many more deaths, not yet recorded.     No doubt, the media will miss that point.

Nevertheless, whilst it may not be exactly accurate news, in comparison with same figures this time last week and weeks before,  it’s probably not exactly bad news either. :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: d2d4j on May 17, 2020, 10:13:03 PM
Hi

Sorry after every weekend figures are announced, they clearly state figures are wrong due to weekend reporting of figures not upto date ...

Even the graphs shows this which is why they use the 7 day running total for better accuracy

Many thanks

John
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 17, 2020, 11:26:14 PM
Hi

Sorry after every weekend figures are announced, they clearly state figures are wrong due to weekend reporting of figures not upto date ...

Even the graphs shows this which is why they use the 7 day running total for better accuracy

Many thanks

John

Yes John that too.   But  If we look at date of death rather date of reporting, there should be no ‘weekend distortion’.

Rolling averages are useful too, but are solving a different problem.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on May 18, 2020, 02:47:24 PM
Today’s death UK toll is reported as 170, the lowest since 24th March.

Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

I don’t think that statistic is as helpful as we might hope as it reflects the deaths reported today, rather than the date they occurred. In worst case scenario, there may have been many more deaths, not yet recorded.     No doubt, the media will miss that point.

Nevertheless, whilst it may not be exactly accurate news, in comparison with same figures this time last week and weeks before,  it’s probably not exactly bad news either. :)

Plus all that basically tells us is that the lockdown was working, seeing as it can take 14 days to show symptoms and potentially considerably longer before a person dies from it.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 18, 2020, 03:02:51 PM
Plus all that basically tells us is that the lockdown was working, seeing as it can take 14 days to show symptoms and potentially considerably longer before a person dies from it.

Absolutely. 

With so many hundreds of thousands of sample cases worldwide I’d say it ought to be possible to calculate a pretty reliable average time lapse between initial exposure, and death.  If they then retrospectively start the clock at the various phases of lockdown, I reason they should be able to identify which aspects of lockdown worked best by looking at the changing shape of the deaths curve on corresponding days further down the timeline.

I’ve no doubt the statisticians will already be counting days from when the Europeans started easing, to see what how the death curves react, that exact number of days later.   

Stress for once, above is just my own reasoning, I can’t link to a qualifying source as I have not tried to find one.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 19, 2020, 05:44:06 PM
Never thought I’d find myself agreeing with SNP politicians but, for once...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-52721717

Quote
Author Neil Gaiman has apologised for making a trip from New Zealand to "self isolate" at his home on Skye.

As far as I can see he doesn’t even seem to have any real connection to Scotland, but maybe that’s going unreported. :(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on May 19, 2020, 06:58:54 PM
Never thought I’d find myself agreeing with SNP politicians but, for once...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-52721717

As far as I can see he doesn’t even seem to have any real connection to Scotland, but maybe that’s going unreported. :(

That's so bizarre on so many levels.  Why wouldn't you want to stay with your family, especially as isn't New Zealand statistically one of the safest places to be?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 21, 2020, 01:51:16 PM
Seems drugs companies are gearing up for vast quantities of vaccine.  From Astrazeneca, ref deliveries from September.

https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-centre/press-releases/2020/astrazeneca-advances-response-to-global-covid-19-challenge-as-it-receives-first-commitments-for-oxfords-potential-new-vaccine.html

Quote
First agreements to supply at least 400 million doses; Company has total capacity sourced for one billion doses through 2020 and into 2021; continues to increase capacity further

Worth stressing that is for the Oxford developed vaccine which still in trials, and may or may not work.  Still, mildly reassuring, imho.



Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: jelv on May 21, 2020, 03:41:13 PM
seeing as it can take 14 days to show symptoms

It appears that is in doubt and of course there are those that never show any symptoms - or the symptoms they exhibit are not those officially recognised by the authorities in this country (but are elsewhere).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08dnym5 is an interesting listen.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 21, 2020, 06:46:36 PM
In case anybody’s not noticed, I see that face masks are becoming more easily available. 

Not just overpriced and dodgy ones from Amazon but from more respectable pharmacies too, such as Boots and Lloyds.   I invested in a box of 50 from Boots online, arrived in two days.  They look pretty much like what (say) my dentist would normally wear.

Of course, any protective benefit for the wearer from SARS-Cov-2  is marginal to non-existent.  But providing they are used in addition to the 1 metre/2 metre, whatever, social distance rules for the country you are in (the distance does vary), it now seems widely accepted that they provide some protection for others, should the wearer be unknowingly be infected.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on May 21, 2020, 09:07:48 PM
Is the gap size too large then, so that SARS-Cov-2 can get through?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 21, 2020, 11:52:55 PM
Is the gap size too large then, so that SARS-Cov-2 can get through?

My understanding is, that is a factor, but...

There’s also the fact that you can catch such a virus by absorption in the eyes and so a mask without eye protection is of very limited benefit.

And there’s also the fact that a strict procedure for donning and removing a mask must be followed, to avoid cross contamination between mask and wearer.

There’s probably other reasons too.

But stress again, Joe Public wears a mask for the benefit of other people, not himself. :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on May 22, 2020, 01:28:38 AM
Oh, I forgot about the eyes.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on May 22, 2020, 03:53:17 AM
My opinion is if the general public are educated to wear masks then we will see  a significant drop in R0.

Are they flawless? no, there is still risk, but that isn't a reason to say they useless.  The main benefit is it helps prevent transmission from people wearing masks, but people can be a carrier without having symptoms, and of course we know "many" people are going out to shops etc. with symptoms anyway.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 22, 2020, 08:13:14 AM
The Boots masks do carry what appears to be European and US certification numbers.   Not sure where that places them on the scale of usefulness, probably better than nothing.

I do have a decent pair of quite tight fitting goggles.   These are not medical, I use them for some diy tasks, and to keep debris out of my eyes when using the garden strimmer, leaf blower etc.  I’d look like an idiot, but would probably be willing to wear them too, if I’m forced to engage in uncomfortable activities, like cramped public transport.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on May 28, 2020, 11:47:52 AM
I see test & trace is starting.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/testing-for-coronavirus/nhs-test-and-trace-if-youre-contacted-after-testing-positive-for-coronavirus/

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/testing-for-coronavirus/nhs-test-and-trace-if-youve-been-in-contact-with-a-person-who-has-coronavirus/

On each page
Quote
You'll be contacted by email, text or phone.

Text messages will come from the NHS. Calls will come from 0300 0135000.

Best brace ourselves for the scams, then.   Great idea NHS, telling the scammers in advance the calling number and sender ids they should use.  :'(

Or have the networks been primed to specifically monitor calls & txts with these details, and apply extra authentication? That might be possible, but I’ve seen no mention of it.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on June 03, 2020, 03:37:45 PM
The shield hotline is a scammers haven.

Normally if you get a call from someone, a sure fire way to verify is simply to ring the company back on its official number, and then you know you speaking to the company.  But the NHS hotline is outbound calls only so you either dont talk to them at all or just hope its not a scam.

I think who wrote that article stating the caller ID may not be aware how widespread caller id spoofing is :(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 03, 2020, 04:02:10 PM
The shield hotline is a scammers haven.

Normally if you get a call from someone, a sure fire way to verify is simply to ring the company back on its official number, and then you know you speaking to the company.  But the NHS hotline is outbound calls only so you either dont talk to them at all or just hope its not a scam.

I think who wrote that article stating the caller ID may not be aware how widespread caller id spoofing is :(

I also remain unimpressed by what I have read about the phone App, though I don’t want to scare people off from using it by harping on about my concerns.

I think I’ve read that Dido Harding, famously at the helm of Talk Talk during their breach a few years ago, is now in an NHS role and running the track and trace.   The consensus at the time of the Talk Talk breech seemed to be that IT, and information security, were not her greatest strengths.  :'(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: burakkucat on June 03, 2020, 04:49:17 PM
I think I’ve read that Dido Harding, famously at the helm of Talk Talk during their breach a few years ago, is now in an NHS role and running the track and trace.   The consensus at the time of the Talk Talk breech seemed to be that IT, and information security, were not her greatest strengths.  :'(

I thought Baroness Diana Harding had moved to "running" a water supply company?  :-X  Or am I thinking about some other unimpressive entity?  :-\
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: j0hn on June 03, 2020, 04:55:03 PM
Quote from: https://www.digitalhealth.net/2020/05/baroness-dido-harding-appointed-to-lead-nhs-covid-19-app/
Baroness Dido Harding has been appointed to lead the programme of testing and tracing as part of the government’s ongoing response to coronavirus, which will include the NHS Covid-19 app.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: burakkucat on June 03, 2020, 06:33:30 PM
Thanks, j0hn.  :)

I've now remembered who was the other entity . . . Olive Garfield, ex-ceo of Openreach.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: kitz on June 04, 2020, 11:32:34 PM

I think I’ve read that Dido Harding, famously at the helm of Talk Talk during their breach a few years ago, is now in an NHS role and running the track and trace.   The consensus at the time of the Talk Talk breech seemed to be that IT, and information security, were not her greatest strengths.  :'(

I watched the interview on tv yesterday afternoon and thought to myself;
- that bumbling idiot who can't answer the questions being put to her by ministers looks familiar.   
as she stumbled through another question about numbers and her repeated "I don't know the numbers' it dawned on me that it was dido from the talktalk hacking fiasco.

Which numpty thought it would be a good idea to put her in charge?  it's hardly going to inspire any faith in the app with her at the realm. :-X

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on June 05, 2020, 06:12:56 AM
Perhaps she was the only one stupid enough to apply for the job? Government IT projects never go well, and one as rushed as this was always going to have problems.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 05, 2020, 08:55:15 AM
It may just be a case of the wrong person being in the right place.

I thought the App had been put together by a department  called NHSX, confirmed by a credible looking Wikipedia page.  Interestingly, App development was apparently commissioned to a company called VMware, of whom many here will be vaguely familiar?  :-\

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHSX

That NHSX wikipedia page makes no mention of Dido Harding, but it explains that NHSX was formed in 2019, thus predating the pandemic, out of resources from various different NHS organisations, one of which was NHS Improvement, chaired by Dido Harding.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHS_Improvement

Since NHSX already existed I guess it does sound like a reasonable choice to develop the App and the track and trace.   Just a shame if it turns out Dido Harding already had a foot in the door.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 05, 2020, 11:18:13 AM
Interesting Covid 19 infection survey released by ONS.   I understand this data is based on test results from population samples regardless of whether they have symptoms, in contrast to the data presented in daily infections/deaths statistics.

We should probably avoid speculating on the significance of anything in particular as none of us here (I assume?) are remotely qualified to do so, but no harm in reading the publications. :)

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveypilot/5june2020
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on June 05, 2020, 09:29:35 PM
Is there trust in the antibody test now?  I remember initially, it was thought it was inconclusive.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 05, 2020, 09:53:02 PM
Is there trust in the antibody test now?  I remember initially, it was thought it was inconclusive.

I don’t think they are 100% reliable, more like high 90s %.   That matters a lot if you, as an individual, want to know with certainty whether you have had Covid 19.

But for the purposes of statistics gathering they can just accommodate the uncertainty of the tests and build that into the overall bounds of the results.   Even if tests are only, say, 95% accurate, it still means the statistics may be 95% accurate, in absence of other unknowns.

Stress, I’m not remotely involved in the scientific field.  As an electronics engineer I was probably taught a bit about statistics, but that has long been forgotten.  Comments above may be at best an over simplification or at worst, plain wrong.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: d2d4j on June 05, 2020, 10:14:51 PM
Hi

I seem to remember the antibodies test is reliable as you give blood for analysis

It was the test if you had Covid 19 which was not accurate- a pricked finger test rather then a full blood test as the antibodies test is

Many thanks

John
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 05, 2020, 10:54:33 PM
Hi

I seem to remember the antibodies test is reliable as you give blood for analysis

It was the test if you had Covid 19 which was not accurate- a pricked finger test rather then a full blood test as the antibodies test is

Many thanks

John

@John, I believe the more recent lab-based tests are supposed to be more accurate.

But the ONS stats may (?) date back to the times when only the less reliable pin-prick tests were available.    Also, use of less accurate (cheaper) tests might yield more accurate results overall, if doing so results in a larger number of statistical samples.


Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 06, 2020, 10:05:44 AM
I gather WHO are changing their advice on mask wearing.  In particular, they seem to be advising that over 60s, and people with underlying conditions, should wear a medical (rather than home made or fabric) mask in some situations.

Ref the advice for over 60s and other vulnerable folks, does this mean they now accept that medical masks, even on their own, provide better than no protection to the wearer?

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/face-mask-coronavirus-who-recommendations-bn/index.html

BBC and various other UK outlets cover the same story, but in less detail.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52945210

BBC article differs in one material aspect, saying that “over 60s with underlying conditions” should wear medical masks (in some conditions).  CNN directly quote WHO as referring to “people aged 60 years or over, or those with underlying conditions”.   It’s an important distinction as, if CNN are right, it seems to me that the advice includes healthy people over 60 as well as unhealthy ones. :-\
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: digbey on June 06, 2020, 12:40:10 PM
No need to get the information second hand.
Read the WHO statement about the pros and cons of where and when to wear a mask.

https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/temp/who-2019-ncov-ipc-masks-2020-4-eng.pdf?sfvrsn=20ec1cbf_2&download=true
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 06, 2020, 12:50:50 PM
No need to get the information second hand.
Read the WHO statement about the pros and cons of where and when to wear a mask.

https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/temp/who-2019-ncov-ipc-masks-2020-4-eng.pdf?sfvrsn=20ec1cbf_2&download=true

Many thanks, I tried and failed to find anything on their own website.   Either it’s been posted very recently or you are better than me at finding such things. Or both. :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 07, 2020, 12:05:41 AM
I wonder how many other people might quietly question the dates and progression of Covid 19?

Both of us here had a pretty awful illness in early January.  For me it was cough, weakness and shortness of breath.  No fever, but I know from experience that my own immune system only seems to react with fever if an illness is bacterial.  Other half had milder symptoms but had very high fever, well over 38C for a few days.   We didn’t consult any doctors, and it got better.

This link, posted by a contributor in the BBC bias thread, is of interest.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52935644

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: burakkucat on June 07, 2020, 12:19:51 AM
I had a "weird time" late January and into early February. Constant cough, worse at night. Difficulty sleeping (more so than my normal). No fever.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on June 07, 2020, 10:55:01 AM
I've had a customer at work tell me he thinks, himself, and a colleague had it in January after another colleague came back from Spain, all three suspect they had it.

A friend of many years told me at the end of May that he and his girl friend think they had it in December, his girlfriend works in a hospital as a manager for a group of doctors, the doctors have since told her they most likely had it as it's been in the UK for 6 - 8 months.

Some one else I know who's wife works in a care home think they had it in December, with six residents dying, staff ill, his wife had a bit of a cough, she thinks if it was the virus she may have passed something on to him as he had an odd chest for weeks and her sister was ill and had to go to hospital with pneumonia type illness in January.

Was it CV19 or something else, I guess we'll never know, but there's certainly no shortage of people that think they've possibly had it, and if it was about in November in China then it could have easily got back here in November/December.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 07, 2020, 11:23:48 AM
Antibody tests can be obtained online, but I’d have a job persuading myself that most of the vendors were anything other than dodgy.

More credibly, well known retailer Superdrug offered them for a while for about £70, by which I might have been tempted.  Their tests supposedly were the later more accurate ones, sent off to be analysed in a laboratory rather than a hand-held gadget.   

But I understand they (Superdrug) were persuaded to stop doing so, not because the lab tests were inaccurate, but because they were not approved for self administration of the blood sample, which might affect accuracy.  Which is fair enough, I suppose.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on June 07, 2020, 12:46:24 PM
But an antibody test won't tell you when someone had it, so people who think they had it prior to the official first case still won't know, they could of had a really mild case recently.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 07, 2020, 02:12:33 PM
But an antibody test won't tell you when someone had it, so people who think they had it prior to the official first case still won't know, they could of had a really mild case recently.

I see what you mean.  But for my own curiosity I’d  still be interested in being antibody tested (at my own expense) even though I’ve shown no symptoms with not so much as a sneeze, within the official time frames.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 19, 2020, 10:32:02 AM
I came across this document on the gov website, interim advice to DHSS and PHE on the pecking order for vaccination, if and when a vaccine actually emerges

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/priority-groups-for-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-advice-from-the-jcvi/interim-advice-on-priority-groups-for-covid-19-vaccination

It certainly strikes me that it will be a difficult call to make, and guaranteed to be hugely unpopular with the majority who’ll have to sit it out for a while. I don’t envy the decision makers.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: CarlT on June 20, 2020, 12:03:19 AM
The virus was definitely in Italy in mid-December. Found in sewage samples collected in a few places there.

Thriva should have an antibody test ready to go soon.

There have been at least 1,200 separate arrivals of the virus to the UK. It's extremely likely that it was in the UK by mid-January and potentially even saw in the new year here.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 20, 2020, 01:04:59 AM
The virus was definitely in Spain in mid-December. Found in sewage samples collected in a few places there.

Thriva should have an antibody test ready to go soon.

There have been at least 1,200 separate arrivals of the virus to the UK. It's extremely likely that it was in the UK by mid-January and potentially even saw in the new year here.

We’re very honoured to have you on board the forum. 

Other people state mere opinions, and/or cite sources.  But you actually have the facts, and are willing to share them.

It must be wonderful to be CarlIT.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on June 20, 2020, 09:09:15 AM
My wife, who works at the local hospital had an antibody test on Monday, the result came back positive.

There was one weekend, when she had a bad headache, and felt clammy, but her temperature was fine, we're pretty sure this was early on prior to staff testing, but can't remember when, can't think of any other time she may of had it. She has also had two Covid tests, both of which were negative.

Makes me wonder if I've had it, but I can't currently have an antibody test.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on June 20, 2020, 09:13:52 AM
We’re very honoured to have you on board the forum. 

Other people state mere opinions, and/or cite sources.  But you actually have the facts, and are willing to share them.

It must be wonderful to be CarlIT.

Oh and we're so honoured to have you to  ;)

A simple Google search  ;D

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-06-virus-italy-december.html

https://www.straitstimes.com/world/europe/italy-had-coronavirus-in-sewage-as-early-as-december-study-says

Quote
It also pointed to a recent Spanish study that found genetic traces in waste water samples collected in mid-January in Barcelona, some 40 days before the first indigenous case was discovered

Yes the above is primarily Italy, perhaps Carl just got muddled or I didn't spend enough time searching for links for you.

Disclaimer for 7LM. I've no idea how reliable the above sources are. I'm also not a scientist, in fact I'm not particularly clever education wise either, especially as I've edited this three four times to make corrections ;D ;)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 20, 2020, 10:11:21 AM
My wife, who works at the local hospital had an antibody test on Monday, the result came back positive.

Now that is interesting.

Fair to remind everybody though that ONS conducts ongoing household surveys, the latest suggesting that only 5.4% (with 95% confidence) have antibodies.   That’s actually slightly lower than their previous estimate, but within the bounds of uncertainty.   Which would actually seem to blow the idea out of the water, that vast numbers of us already had it.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveypilot/18june2020

I’m not a statistician, it’s possible I’m misunderstanding the data, happy to be told that is so.  But I’m also happy to believe that ONS is professional in their research and truthful In their data, regardless of public sentiment regarding elected politicians.

Regarding media sites in general... no, there are none that I regard as sources of facts.  Hard to believe, but even our Monthly village newsletter, half the population of Dibley, has published some howling errors over the years. When it happens, I am encouraged to let it pass :D
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 20, 2020, 10:51:57 AM
Regarding the Italian Waste Water story, all I can find is multiple second hand accounts (Increasing exponentially with each search) of the same story.

An organisation named as Italy’s ‘National Health Institute’ seems to be credited as the source but I have not found the organisation’s website or source publication of the study, and anyway there is no point as I do not speak a word of Italian.   

And until any such data is independently verified,  I don’t have any feeling for how much trust to place in such an Italian public body.  Tales of corruption and blunder in Italian government do seem to emerge with some frequency.   Damn, I probably just lost another 60 million friends. :-[
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: digbey on June 20, 2020, 12:19:38 PM
An organisation named as Italy’s ‘National Health Institute’ seems to be credited as the source but I have not found the organisation’s website or source publication of the study, and anyway there is no point as I do not speak a word of Italian.   

The 'National Health Institute' is 'Istituto Superiore di Sanità' www.iss.it.
Here is the original report. I know it's written by a foreigner but many browsers will translate it for you and you won't need to speak a word of Italian. I don't think I'll bother to find the sources of similar reports of early detection in Spain and France.

https://www.iss.it/comunicati-stampa/-/asset_publisher/fjTKmjJgSgdK/content/cs-n%25C2%25B039-2020-studio-iss-su-acque-di-scarico-a-milano-e-torino-sars-cov-2-presente-gi%25C3%25A0-a-dicembre
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: CarlT on June 20, 2020, 01:12:07 PM
I did mean Italy, sorry!

Thriva's test has completed CE certification and they are completing the required specificity and sensitivity trial next week.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 20, 2020, 03:00:15 PM
I did mean Italy, sorry!

Thriva's test has completed CE certification and they are completing the required specificity and sensitivity trial next week.

The earlier Home DIY tests, that UK purchased in vast numbers and had to ditch as they were so unreliable as to be branded useless, also had CE approval.   Or so I remember, can’t find a link support my recollection.

Sounds like Thriva have hit the same problem as Superdrug though.  The newer lab tests work and are reliable, but results are only reliable if blood sample taken by a qualified person, not diy with a drawing pin and a dab of savlon.

https://thriva.co/tests/coronavirus-antibody-test

Quote
This test is unavailable while further validation is done on finger-prick blood samples. Enter your email, and we’ll let you know when we’re offering this again.

If the Guardian is to believed on this one occasion.....
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/27/english-retailers-told-halt-coronavirus-home-antibody-test-deliveries
Quote
The authorities appear to be questioning whether a home blood sample leads to a result that is as accurate as one taken by a nurse in a clinic.

Edit: struck out my assertion that the flawed tests had CE approval.   Really quite exhaustive searching has failed to find a shred of evidence in to support me.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on June 23, 2020, 01:28:15 PM
does anyone else see a flaw here?

The prime minister said: "Our principle is to trust the British public to use their common sense in the full knowledge of the risks, remembering the more we open up, the more vigilant we need to be."

we already have lots of evidence that the "British" public are {censored} morons.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 23, 2020, 01:56:28 PM
we already have lots of evidence that the "British" public are {censored} morons.

Basically, for the a large part of the UK, agreed.

That said I would hope the modellers, in deciding the guidance to be advised, would include estimates of moronic behaviour.  May not be able to find it again but I Seem to recall that the initial advice of self-isolation for those with symptoms, was based on an assumption that they'd only get around 50% compliance.   But the models suggested 50% isolation, with the other measures, would be enough to achieve the required reduction in transmission.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: tickmike on June 23, 2020, 02:21:25 PM


The prime minister said: "Our principle is to trust the British public to use their common sense in the full


A lot of 'Jo' public have no Common Sense.

In the Zoo that my daughter works, they opened again last week, she said the majority of the public have Not idea what 'social distancing' means and have No idea what '2 Metre' is, No sense to wash there hands, Do not understand what 'One Way' system/paths are.

With owning a Village shop for a number of years it opened my eyes to what a lot are like.

I think the new 1 Metre rule is too early, the 'R' value has not gone down enough yet.


Anyone buying FFP3 Medical grade Face Masks ? .
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 23, 2020, 03:44:17 PM
I have a single FFP2 valved respirator, sole survivor of a few that I purchased some years ago, for wood working.  It’s meant to be single use but I have worn it twice during the outbreak when visiting medical establishments, allowing it to ‘quarantine’ for about two months between uses.  It is a reassuringly tight fit and reasonably comfortable, but breathing through it for any length of time is quite exhausting, and communication can be hard too.

I also have some cheaper disposable blue face masks from Boots, look very much like the sort of thing a Dentist might have worn in the old days.  Boots were careful not to advertise them as giving any Covid protection at all to the wearer, they are meant to protect others.   But they arrived in a box that claimed various medical standards.  After researching these standards I arrived at the conclusion the protection they give to the wearer, while far short of a full FFP2/3 respirator,  even without eye protection, is probably better than nothing.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on June 23, 2020, 11:19:53 PM
Had to see my GP today, first time out since January.

Face mask is NOT good for Asthma sufferer.  I started off at my normal pace but quickly felt like I was suffocating and had to slow down and eventually stop entirely to catch my breath as my chest was aching.

On the way back I had to walk really really slowly so that I never had to take deep breaths.

I'm really not looking forward to going to the hospital in a few weeks.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 23, 2020, 11:50:00 PM
Sympathies Alex.   I had childhood Asthma that gradually resolved in adulthood.   I’ve been lucky that it got better, last time I remember a ‘proper’ asthma attack was in 1988.  I still had inhalers on prescription for a long time but the need receded and now pretty much forgotten.

But after wearing that FFP2 for just 10-15 minutes I realised that the discomfort, whilst mild in comparison,  bore recognisable similarities to my long forgotten asthma attacks.  I have no doubt that for an asthma sufferer, masks may be pretty bad. :'(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on June 24, 2020, 08:33:19 PM
My wife just got the news that she will be able to reopen her guest accommodation business. Over four months holiday, lots of gardening and baking. Shame she’s so full of arthritis and generally poorly, it rather hampered what she has been able to do physically during lockdown.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on June 25, 2020, 02:45:43 PM
Quote
Europe sees its first increase in weekly coronavirus cases in months, according to the World Health Organisation. The rise comes as countries continue to ease restrictions.

who'd have thought it.
but hey, people need to get into pubs!

easing is happening way too soon, and public gathering places should remain full closed IMO.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on June 25, 2020, 08:36:16 PM
What chenks said.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on June 25, 2020, 08:52:04 PM
Perhaps if they're in the pubs they won't be on the beaches  :wall:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-53176717
https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/gallery/what-kents-beaches-looked-like-4264844

I bet all that seaweed at Broadstairs absolutely stank in this hot weather
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 25, 2020, 10:05:27 PM
The beach photos are certainly worrying.     But in fairness, anybody who understands camera lenses will notice the majority of the photos that make the news have been taken using a lens with long focal length, which has the effect of making crowds look more dense.  Very easy trick known to most photographers.

For those who need a more detailed explanation, this one is pretty good...

https://fullfact.org/online/photos-social-distancing/
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on June 25, 2020, 10:25:17 PM
Apparently the queues started around Sittingbourne coast bound on the M2 this afternoon, and there was barely room to drive a car in Margate, let alone park it. Also the videos of the beaches on the news tonight looked extremely packed.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 25, 2020, 10:49:57 PM
Yes, the BBC news camera crews are worst offenders of all.   You can’t blame them.   The news producer, mindful of program funding in the climate of licence fee cutbacks, briefs them “make it look crowded”.  They are the very best of photographers, and knowing how to do that,  they do. :)

But I’m not saying there’s not a problem.  We decided to visit a local woodland walk last week - not a chance.   The lay-by car park, which would usually be deserted on weekdays, was full to the brim, with improvised and unsafe additional parking for some distance along the verges.


Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: jelv on June 25, 2020, 11:05:17 PM
Having watched the reports on the local news, it was really, really bad. All the car parks are full and there's hundreds of cars parked on double yellow lines all over the town. Front gardens being used as toilets.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 25, 2020, 11:29:08 PM
Having watched the reports on the local news, it was really, really bad. All the car parks are full and there's hundreds of cars parked on double yellow lines all over the town. Front gardens being used as toilets.

Very good example of why I have not watched a TV news bulletin, local or national, for many weeks now.

Who’s to say if it’s true?   It might be, or it might not.  The fact it was “on the BBC” has no bearing on the probability of truth either way.

I’m certainly sceptical as to whether gardens are being used as toilets.   If  they are, it’s also possibly a reaction to the widespread closure of public loos that started long predating coronavirus, when local authorities figured out they had no legal obligation to keep them open.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on June 26, 2020, 12:14:48 AM
Within the first few hours of informing people that her accommodation business is going to reopen, my wife Janet was getting bookings - some possibly timewasters though. Very pleasant after six months of living on fresh air aside from the government payout for self-employed people running their own businesses. So a good day.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 26, 2020, 12:33:44 AM
Back on facts, and the media headline of a surge in European cases.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53175459
Headline
Quote
Coronavirus: 'Very significant' resurgences in Europe alarm WHO

I think the article has been edited since I first looked at it as, further down the page now,

Quote
The 11 countries and territories were later identified by the WHO as Armenia, Sweden, Moldova, North Macedonia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Albania, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kyrgyzstan, Ukraine and Kosovo.

Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan..  etc...  Europe?   Really?


Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on June 26, 2020, 07:48:49 AM
those are european countries (whether you like it or not).
and don't try and turn this into another one fo your anti-BBC threads.
take that elsewhere.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on June 26, 2020, 07:50:51 AM
7LM I think your anti BBC is getting the better of you, next you'll be telling us the videos (not pictures) I saw had been edited to add in more people. As Jelv said the beaches and roads we're packed, there's no denying it.

Very pleasant after six months of living on fresh air aside from the government payout for self-employed people running their own businesses. So a good day.

Weaver, my brother lives on fresh air in normal times let alone now when he can't work because he's shielding, there's no way he can afford an £1100 (1/10 of his annual income) iPad like Janet has just purchased, your not really that hard up if you can afford and justify that expenditure are you?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 26, 2020, 08:55:09 AM
No one is suggesting the pictures, or the videos, have been edited in any way.

Here again is the link to fullfact, where they discuss how photographic techniques can be used to make an area look busy.   They can’t create a crowd that doesn’t exist, but they can choose to make the crowd look more dense or more sparse just by using different lenses.

https://fullfact.org/online/photos-social-distancing/

those are european countries (whether you like it or not).
and don't try and turn this into another one fo your anti-BBC threads.
take that elsewhere.

Genuinely interested, Chenks.  Probably my stupidity as I failed my Geography O-level, but in what context are the four countries I listed ‘European”?   Wikipedia, today at least, seems to locate them in
Asia or Eurasia.  Politically of course, ‘Europe’ is sometimes used to refer to the EU regardless of geography but I don’t think (happy to be corrected) they are EU members either?

I guess they sometimes might get a slot on the Eurovision Song Contest, but so does Australia.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 26, 2020, 09:14:16 AM
Focusing more (sorry for the pun) on camera lenses, one of my favourite lockdown photos is the second one down on this Sun page, with aircraft apparently nosing onto the fence line.  You’d swear at a glance the parked aircraft were squeezed into Tesco car park slots, or at least that’s my perception.   

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11276713/photos-50-ba-planes-grounded-bournemouth-airport/

I think it appeared in other places too, The Sun is just where I found it today.  Fantastic shot, credit to the photographer imho. :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on June 26, 2020, 09:32:06 AM
Genuinely interested, Chenks.  Probably my stupidity as I failed my Geography O-level, but in what context are the four countries I listed ‘European”?   Wikipedia, today at least, seems to locate them in
Asia or Eurasia.  Politically of course, ‘Europe’ is sometimes used to refer to the EU regardless of geography but I don’t think (happy to be corrected) they are EU members either?

lets look at Kazakhstan then.

Kazakhstan is a transcontinental country largely located in Central Asia with the most western parts of it being located in Eastern Europe.
the key word there is "transcontinental".

same for Azerbaijan.

Armenia are part of UEFA and are considered european in terms or sport, even though it's technically in the asian continent. they are in the Eurasian Economic Union as are Kyrgyzstan
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 26, 2020, 10:21:56 AM
lets look at Kazakhstan then.

Kazakhstan is a transcontinental country largely located in Central Asia with the most western parts of it being located in Eastern Europe.
the key word there is "transcontinental".

same for Azerbaijan.

Armenia are part of UEFA and are considered european in terms or sport, even though it's technically in the asian continent. they are in the Eurasian Economic Union as are Kyrgyzstan

Ah I see, thanks for that.  I should have confessed that as well as failing Geography O-level, I’ve also been ignorant my entire life of all things related to Sports. :)

I remain of the opinion that it was slightly deceptive and potentially unhelpful to the community, for a major UK media channel, who I’ll not name as the name seems to generate hostility, to use these countries to justify a headline

“Coronavirus: 'Very significant' resurgences in Europe alarm WHO”.

Of the fuller list, of countries more familiar to me, they even included Sweden.   Sweden is interesting as they’ve hardly had any prevention measures, depending to a much larger extent than others on Herd Immunity.  I’ve been fascinated by their graphs and have no idea if they might eventually regret that. But, either way, doesn’t it become a pretty irrelevant statistical comparison with UK?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on June 26, 2020, 10:33:51 AM
irrelevant in what way?

ignoring your obvious anti-BBC agenda and your total ignornance about anything they "report", surely even you can understand that if restrictions getting eased sees an increase in infection rate then that is relevant to the UK who have just eased (too far IMO) restrictions? we should be looking at, and reporting about every country to see what happens if they are ahead of us in the process.

look at what has just happened with the beaches when there is a sniff of being allowed out again. people are morons. where is the preferred 2m rule being applied here (which is actually still in affect even though 1m is technically being allowed).

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 26, 2020, 11:02:52 AM
irrelevant in what way?

ignoring your obvious anti-BBC agenda and your total ignornance about anything they "report", surely even you can understand that if restrictions getting eased sees an increase in infection rate then that is relevant to the UK who have just eased (too far IMO) restrictions? we should be looking at, and reporting about every country to see what happens if they are ahead of us in the process.

look at what has just happened with the beaches when there is a sniff of being allowed out again. people are morons. where is the preferred 2m rule being applied here (which is actually still in affect even though 1m is technically being allowed).

Of course there's a risk in relaxing lockdown,  the advisors at Boris' daily briefings made no secret of that.  Personally, I'll deal with it by remaining in my own personal lockdown.  There's a few local parks I can use, as you have to book a slot in advance to get in so every visitor has probably about a half acre to themselves.  Otherwise it remains as before, Tesco home delivery and a daily walk around the village.

I certainly agree that the facts about what is happening elsewhere are very relevant.  I took comfort that our own Epidemic trailed a few weeks behind some of the others, potentially allowing lessons to be learned from others' relaxations.  And on that point, the BBC article (sorry, flameproof coat at the ready), despite the sensationalist headline went go on to clarify, more helpfully

Quote
Dr Kluge said countries such as Poland, Germany, Spain and Israel had responded quickly to dangerous outbreaks associated with schools, coal mines, and food production settings, and brought them under control through rapid interventions.

Despite warning about resurgences, he said the WHO anticipated that the situation would calm down further in the majority of countries over the summer.

Kluge then went on to comment in conclusion that Autumn may present new challenges.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on June 26, 2020, 11:21:38 AM
@Ronski I’m sorry to hear your brother hasn’t been working. I too have not been working for many years now. My best wishes to him, to you and yours.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on June 26, 2020, 03:59:00 PM
Thanks Weaver, he's had bad health for most his life, which also means he can't get a full time job so works when he can as a self employed painter and decorator. Whilst he is good at what he does his interpersonal and management skills are lacking. So he's always struggling with money, always in debt and always needs help, but it just won't sink in (at the age of 50 you would think it would) that if he spent money wisely he'd get himself out of debt and actually have more money. Instead he spends a few quid here, a few quid there on items he really doesn't need and it all adds, but a large chunk of the world's population is like that, you only have to look at the people complaining they've got no money to buy food but driving expensive cars etc and then expecting governments and charities to bail them out because they splashed out instead of saving for a rainy day.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: j0hn on June 26, 2020, 04:30:41 PM
It's not the BBC who are claiming those are European countries.
The BBC correctly reported them as part of the "WHO's European region".

https://www.euro.who.int/en/countries

The beaches appeared to me to be as busy as the media made out.

I don't see the problem in using a picture that backs up the story.
I wouldn't expect them to use a picture that makes beaches look less crowded.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on June 26, 2020, 05:27:45 PM
Picking the right lens to give a fair representation must be tricky.  It would kinda make sense that if you're trying to show that there are a lot of people, you'd want as many people in the shot as possible so pick the lens accordingly, which might in turn make it look like they are closer together than they really hard.

I don't think there is really a perfect compromise.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 26, 2020, 05:56:25 PM
The other factor at play in choice of lens is that the reporters, if they share my feelings about crowds wrt Coronavirus, would want to distance themselves from these crowds.   They might then have no choice but to use long lenses.  For avoidance of doubt, that’s a concession from me that even though the long lenses might be emphasising the density, I don’t think the media are necessarily being deliberately manipulative in this instance. :)

But I think we need to move on, else this long and interesting thread will become just become bogged down as another BBC thread.  Happy to let John’s recent post have the last word on the BBC aspect. :)

So (hopefully!) moving on...
...I noticed the other day that Bupa are actually offering antibody tests for £65, if anybody is interested.   They seem to be a step ahead of the others as, rather than a diy kit, the sample is taken by one of their own ‘clinicians’.

https://www.bupa.co.uk/health/payg/covid-testing

Personally I’m not that tempted, as the clinician sounds to me like a pretty intimate encounter by the standards of social distancing.  I’d rather avoid such contacts unless medically required, and for me getting tested is not a medical requirement, just a curiosity. :(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 30, 2020, 10:12:30 AM
So, local lockdown for Leicester, seems to be a fact     It will be very interesting to see how successfully it can be managed as I don’t think there’s much doubt there will be similar local outbreaks elsewhere in future.

Worrying that even a couple of days ago, the Mayor of Leicester, a former MP, seemed to be resisting and playing it down somewhat.   Then again, I keep saying we shouldn’t believe anything we read or see on news media, so who knows what discussions really took place.

Sympathies and thoughts to all who are affected, by the lockdown or by the virus itself.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on June 30, 2020, 11:11:25 AM
i refer you to reply 525
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,24502.msg418378.html#msg418378

but hey, people needed to get on the beaches and demonstrate in support of BLM.
IMO the whole BLM needs to take a back seat until COVID is no longer an issue. Earth Lives Matter!
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on June 30, 2020, 11:13:09 AM
The doctor came out to see me yesterday because I was vomiting. She was wearing all kinds of gear and my wife Janet wore a face mask while the doctor was with me and Janet. Weird, it’s the first time I have seen the full gear as I haven’t been out of the house nor met anyone coming to the house since the pandemic began. I’m thinking my current illness has been due to constipation caused by all the drugs I’m on. Also my blood pressure is very high, so Janet tells me, after measuring it.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 30, 2020, 11:40:12 AM
i refer you to reply 525
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,24502.msg418378.html#msg418378

but hey, people needed to get on the beaches and demonstrate in support of BLM.
IMO the whole BLM needs to take a back seat until COVID is no longer an issue. Earth Lives Matter!

Chenks, I agree.  Beach crowds, political protests, and football supporting mobs are all worrying.   But have you found any evidence that beaches and BLM protests are behind the Leicester outbreak?   It seems unlikely to me, especially beaches as I think Leicester is about as *far as you can get from any part of the coast.  But I’d be interested to see any facts and figures (excluding ‘facts’ from journalists).

Short of a full and permanent national lockdown, which is obviously not an option, I don’t see how local outbreaks can be avoided - no matter how well we all behave.  What matters, it seems to me, is whether they can successfully be contained and suppressed.

*checking my facts, I see there are other places further from the sea than Leicester, so don’t take me too literally.


@Weaver, sorry to hear you’re poorly.   But I wonder if the blood pressure may have been affected by the doctor in all that gear?  I”m overdue a blood pressure check myself and not looking forwards to it as  I’ve repeatedly been told I get ‘white coat syndrome’ at the best of times, whereby my BP shoots up when measured  by a doctor.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on June 30, 2020, 12:10:11 PM
outbreaks can be avoided simply by proper social distancing.
if you are not close to another person and do the appropriate cleaning then you limit any potential outbreaks.

if an outbreak has occured then it simply means people have been in contact with others when they shouldn't have been.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 30, 2020, 01:33:56 PM
I’m not sure it’s that simple, Chenks.   Neither you (I assume?) nor I am scientific experts, but my impression is that the consensus of experts is that, post lockdown, things will need to kept under control by tracking and tracing, but that occasional local outbreaks are to be expected and will require effective local measures to control them.   I’ve not seen any expert suggesting that new outbreaks can be avoided altogether, without further complete lockdowns.

I’ve seen the WHO recently quoted as having singled out Germany, Poland, Spain and Israel, praising them for effective responses to local outbreaks in schools, coal mines and factories.  Admittedly that’s just press reports so may be complete fiction, but the message from all experts in all regions seems to have been pretty unanimous, that further local outbreaks are inevitable.  Nobody should depend on them not happening, such a policy would be pretty flawed.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on June 30, 2020, 01:47:42 PM
and how do these local outbreaks occur? by not complying with social distancing.
if you don't come into close enough contact with another person and follow the correct hygene instructions then your chances of catching anything (never mind covid-19) are extremely low.

but i guess standing in a massive queue to get into primark, or sitting on the beach is far more important.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on June 30, 2020, 02:25:15 PM
Was dismayed on my trip back from the hospital on Sunday at seeing groups of youths just hanging around like everything is normal, also very few people with face masks on in general.

Most concerning was there were people stood just outside the main entrance of the hospital with no masks on, which seems the absolute stupidest place to do that as people have to walk past them.

The rule was you have to wear a mask in the hospital, but there was nobody around until you reached the departments to actually enforce it.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on June 30, 2020, 02:48:18 PM
and how do these local outbreaks occur? by not complying with social distancing.
if you don't come into close enough contact with another person and follow the correct hygene instructions then your chances of catching anything (never mind covid-19) are extremely low.

but i guess standing in a massive queue to get into primark, or sitting on the beach is far more important.

No Chenks,  nobody here is defending the people who are taking increased chances.  But even if everybody tried hard to comply, the risk may become extremely low, but it is an extremely virulent disease and outbreaks are possible even when the risk is extremely low.

Looking at Leicester again, it is actually interesting that their local BLM seem focused on first week in June, so it seems to me that it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the larger outbreak now being dealt with, had its roots in the protests.  I would hope that the tracking and tracing process would be able to confirm or deny that.  The UK does, thankfully, remain pretty good at putting facts and figures in the public domain.  I do keep an eye on ONS and other Covid-19 reports, and have seen nothing yet to suggest such an association with the protests, but it'll be interesting to see if anything does unfold.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 02, 2020, 02:08:58 PM
In Scotland

Quote
The use of face coverings will become mandatory in shops in Scotland from 9 July as coronavirus restrictions are eased, Nicola Sturgeon has said.

however, there is never any mention of approved places to get such things, or what is preffered and what should be avoided.

got to laugh as some of the comments peope are already posting about this

Quote
I will not be seriously jeopardising my own health by wearing a mask. I want to be able to breath!

oh the irony!

and seeing some of the americans repsonse to face mask.. "my body my choice" - usually from replublicans. probably the same people that object to abortion, strange how it's their body for facemasks, but not their body for anything else.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 02, 2020, 02:28:39 PM
however, there is never any mention of approved places to get such things, or what is preffered and what should be avoided.

Where have you looked?   Unless it’s different in Scotland...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-to-wear-and-make-a-cloth-face-covering/how-to-wear-and-make-a-cloth-face-covering

Also available from High Street chemists who, I am sure, would be happy to advice in-store.

https://www.boots.com/health-pharmacy/surgical-reusable-face-masks

Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 02, 2020, 02:34:14 PM
i know that's a government website, but they are seriously saying to cut up t-shirts etc and make one yourself?
now that such a rule is in place they should be providing access to getting these - either free or via approved stores.
it shouldn't be up to the public to work it out for themselves - as we already know the public are morons.

of course, you also need an approved recognised method for showing you are exempt from it, otherwise you may be refused access to a shop for not wearing a mask.

and have you seen the price of the disposable masks on the boots website? at least 50p per mask (but you have to buy like 200 at a time to get them at that price).
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 02, 2020, 03:01:40 PM
I personally went for the Boots ‘soft loop’ masks.  They seem well made, and good value.

So far I have only worn one of my box of 50 masks, as an experiment when working with solder, as the fumes sometimes irritate my airways. I know it’s a non-approved use, but my impression is it helps a lot in that usage.  So far, for soldering, I’ve just reused the same one over and over, it seems to be lasting forever.   

For Covid-risk situations I’d probably want a fresh one much more often.  I’ve not restarted shopping yet, but  when I do my round trip to the supermarket costs between about £1.50 and £5.00 in petrol.  So another 70p for a face mask, even if worn just once, isn’t going to be a huge impact.

But for anybody that hard up, I’m sure there’s scope for (say) Tesco to buy them much cheaper in bulk, and hand them out on request.  :)

Edit...  PS: https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/306955202

Available in tens, and cheaper than Boots.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 02, 2020, 03:11:43 PM
point i was making was, that to get a mask at 50p each, you have to buy 200 of them, so it'll cost you £105.
however, i can't see any shop handing them out for free no matter how large a store they are. that's just opening themselves up for possible law suits for providing a mask to someone who may then catch covid!
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 02, 2020, 03:20:42 PM
point i was making was, that to get a mask at 50p each, you have to buy 200 of them, so it'll cost you £105.
however, i can't see any shop handing them out for free no matter how large a store they are. that's just opening themselves up for possible law suits for providing a mask to someone who may then catch covid!

Ah, your post crossed with my PS, see last message.

But even my box of 50 at Boots, was only £35.  And that was the slightly more expensive ones.

Whilst on the subject of Boots, they also had a good online stock of alcohol hand sanitiser in quite big bottles, last time I looked.  I’ll be using more of that too, when I do start getting out and about again.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: tickmike on July 03, 2020, 10:09:25 AM
Leicester is only 25 miles from me so I hope this wind that's blowing does not come from there  :(
Bradford (another place they are keeping a eye on) and Leicester are similar mix of people !, the rest of this sentence has been deleted before I get in trouble !.

I said to Mrs tickmike we will see a spike soon after all these protests, football crowds like in Liverpool .

As said before we have some standard 'Surgical' face masks but for more crowded places I am looking for FFP3

They are £9 each per pack of 50  :o

(The above meet the guidance from the World Health Organisation (WHO) and are recommended for use by the WHO during outbreaks of SARS, Avian Flu and Coronavirus.)

This is a uk medical supplier, I do not want to buy from an unknown source eg ebay etc.

I think my chest has been affected by 'soldering fumes' and also I worked in a place where 'Blue Asbestos' ( the deadliest type) was used, but not by me, a lot of the Insulation guys have long died from it. :o

 So now I used a p3 grade face mask with side filters, when doing any dusty, or any fumes, Painting etc DIY to try and not to upset my chest.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 03, 2020, 10:24:39 AM
Of interest, is anybody thinking about eye protection?

I have a pair of safety goggles with a good seal, big enough fit over my glasses but adequately vented to stop them steaming up.  I wear that I wear when, for example, using a strimmer.  Seems to me that when in shops etc, worn with a decent mask, they may be a little extra protection?   I’d feel like a twit, but heh, that’s a feeling you’ll all know by now that I must be accustomed to. :D

I guess main downside would be  after they’ve been sneezed or coughed upon, I get lazy and mishandle them during removal, making matters even worse. ::)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Weaver on July 03, 2020, 01:39:10 PM
My wife already had a supply of face masks because of problems with handling straw, which has made her ill in the past. Donkey straw supplied from the last place was really musty and horrible; we might end up not using some of it as if we don’t fancy handling it then how are the donkeys supposed to be eating it? (Living on grass all day now anyway, not so interested in straw at night time)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: jelv on July 09, 2020, 09:32:38 AM
Disturbing thread seen on Twitter this morning posted by Dr Katie Bramall-Stainer: GP, Chief Executive Cambridgeshire Local Medical Committee, GPC UK & BMA Council Member; Deputy Chair UK Conference of LMCs.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1280272077669498881.html

Very good questions towards the end:

Quote
Doctors are looking to Autumn/Winter with dread. How to roll out a socially distanced seasonal flu vaccination programme? How can we jab the greatest number safely?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 09, 2020, 10:20:21 AM
Sounds like maybe she should change her name, to Dr. Hindsight?

The feasibility of this year’s flu jab is a worry.  But it strikes me it might be balanced by the fact that, if social distancing measures are still in place and working, fewer people will get flu anyway.   I’m sure the decision-making people will be considering these sorts of things.

I’m actually beginning to worry that if the measures mean I don’t get any colds or flus this year, will I lose some immunity to them in future?    Some researchers are investigating the possibility that people who only get mild symptoms from Covid-19 might be the same people who recently had a heavy cold, some of which have for decades been caused by a different Coronavirus. And in the inevitable subsequent waves of Covid, there will be a lot fewer people who had recent colds.  :o
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 09, 2020, 10:28:17 AM
I’m actually beginning to worry that if the measures mean I don’t get any colds or flus this year, will I lose some immunity to them in future?

you might want to read up on that, because your worries are somwewhat misguided.
https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-updates/2020/06/all-social-distancing-weakening-our-immune-systems
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: kitz on July 09, 2020, 10:55:27 AM
^ good link.

It covers the concepts of social distancing and the immune system quite nicely - even mentioning the effects stress can have on the immune system.   
I've seen other people wonder about the effects of social distancing can have on the immune system, so worth the read :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 09, 2020, 11:08:21 AM
you might want to read up on that, because your worries are somwewhat misguided.
https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-updates/2020/06/all-social-distancing-weakening-our-immune-systems

Actually, I think you'll find that professional opinions vary.

Here's another professional opinion.  Basically confirms (if I understand the gist of it) the author believes exposure to common cold coronavirus may affect outcome from Covid-19.  But...  he also speculates that even if an immune system primed by a common cold coronavirus might affect Covid-19, we shouldn't just assume the effect will be a good one.  It's also possible that it might make matters worse...

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-020-0389-z

Anyway, I'm the first to admit that whilst I find all the science interesting, I'm not remotely qualified to claim that I understand much of it. :blush:
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 09, 2020, 10:26:46 PM
I took a big ‘first step’ today, donned a mask and ventured into Waitrose very briefly, to buy a gift.  First visit to any shop, since early March.

I was disappointed to find hardly anybody else was masked. :(

Can’t help thinking the staff could be setting a better example.  I’d not expect the checkout staff to wear masks as wearing them for any length of time is fatiguing and anyway, they have a (half hearted) screen to protect them.  But for the staff out mingling on the floor, would wearing masks be a big ask?   It might just get the message across, that there’s a nasty virus about.

I was also a bit disappointed to see no change to the pay & display car park machines, unavoidable pushing of potentially manky buttons, no contactless option.

Back to Tesco home deliveries methinks (Tesco being only one that’s reliable around here).
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 14, 2020, 08:07:19 AM
New UK academic report out, on a worst case scenario for winter.  Includes discussion of recent meanderings on this thread, such as interaction with seasonal flu and other winter illnesses.

https://acmedsci.ac.uk/file-download/51353957

80 pages long I’m afraid, but worth a skim imho.

It’ll no doubt lead to all sorts of apocalyptic headlines in trashy media, guess we’d better brace ourselves for that. :'(
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: digbey on July 14, 2020, 11:35:17 AM
It’ll no doubt lead to all sorts of apocalyptic headlines in trashy media, guess we’d better brace ourselves for that. :'(
Is this what you mean?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53392148
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 14, 2020, 11:42:22 AM
Is this what you mean?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53392148

Not really, I wouldn’t call that apocalyptic?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 14, 2020, 11:52:16 AM
the main problem at the moment is that a lot of people think that the problem is over now, and normal life is back.
problem is that it defintely isn't. there is never going to be a "back to normal" unless a vaccine is found and used like we have with measles/mumps etc.
we have a "new normal" now and people need to change quickly.

just wait for the anti-vaccers to pop their head up over the trenches!

people doing the mad dash to get to pubs, i shake my head in disbelief. however if every pub was to close and never re-open again then i'd be perfectly happy.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: CarlT on July 14, 2020, 12:11:20 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPKDHD9w/Mask-Plus.jpg)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 14, 2020, 12:31:01 PM
In terms of media coverage of the winter report, I’d like to nominate this one as a good example.  Factual and restrained, in Imperial’s own news letter.

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/199693/prepare-winter-covid-19-peak-warn-infectious/

Starts of with a summary of the report and a description of the authors, rather than blasting out big numbers in bold letters.   The numbers are stated towards the end of the article, but only after the reader has absorbed the context in which these numbers are being presented.

For those who may succumb to headlines that scream out big numbers such as  “up to 120,000 may die”, the 120,000 is not an “up to”, as far as I can see it is an actual estimate, stated as within a range of uncertainty.  The “up to” would be 251,000 as that is the upper bound on their range, 24,500 being the lower bound.   Emphasise again, these numbers are modelling a worst case scenario, it’s not a forecast, nobody is saying they think it will happen.   It also includes lower numbers, for better than worst-case scenarios.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 14, 2020, 12:51:56 PM
problem is, with the way people are currently acting then who can expect anything other than a "worst case scenario".
lockdowns are are already be re-introduce in various places around the world, although some are city-widerather than country-wide - Melbourne being an example.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 14, 2020, 01:27:12 PM
Still important I think to take the numbers at face value, and not to focus unduly on the extremes.

Neil Ferguson, original architect of UK (and many other) lockdowns, now in the dog’s house for breaching lockdown rules himself by seeing a lady friend, is often ridiculed for his BSE predictions in 2002.  The story goes that he predicted that up to 50,000 may die from BSE, whereas less than 200 actually died, his prediction being made to look ridiculous.  Actually though, as far as I can ascertain, he actually predicted between 50 and 50,000 deaths so, at 170 odd, the outcome was entirely within the range of his predictions.

Not an expert on BSE, Covid-19, nor anything similar, happy to be challenged on any of this. :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 14, 2020, 01:33:07 PM
difference is that BSE (or rather vCJD as only cattle can have BSE) isn't contagious. you had to eat the infected meat to get it vCJD.
whis is why the "cure" was to burn all the affected cattle.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 14, 2020, 01:45:39 PM
I was just making the point that when the BSE model predicted 50-50,000 we shouldn’t have focused solely on the 50,000.  The end result for that model turned out to be nearer 50, just as the model had predicted.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: j0hn on July 14, 2020, 02:43:22 PM
I was just making the point that when the BSE model predicted 50-50,000 we shouldn’t have focused solely on the 50,000.  The end result for that model turned out to be nearer 50, just as the model had predicted.

Predicting between 50-50,000 deaths and the result being 170 isn't an accurate prediction imo.
That's a huge range and the outcome is at the very bottom of that range.
Nothing to brag that the outcome was in that predicted range.

I've created a model that predicts between 1 and 1 billion deaths from COVID19.

Am I an expert now?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 14, 2020, 04:28:41 PM
Am I an expert now?

I'm sure you won't be offended if we say 'no'.  You would be expected to explain your methods, and explain where the uncertainty comes from, it's not just a made-up number.

There was a time (long ago) when I knew how to approach such problems in relation to electronic circuitry, looking at component tolerances, thermal stability etc, MTBF etc, within ranges of probability.

I would not have any idea where to begin, when looking at the uncertainties of pandemic modelling.  But instinctively, I am unsurprised that the uncertainty is substantial, they are after all modelling something based on assumptions that leave massive scope for errors.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: digbey on July 14, 2020, 04:52:38 PM
..., he actually predicted between 50 and 50,000 deaths so, at 170 odd, the outcome was entirely within the range of his predictions.

His prediction was actually wider at 63-136,00. Not really any more use for planning than a sheer guess.

https://www.nature.com/articles/35020688?proof=trueMay
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 14, 2020, 05:25:48 PM
His prediction was actually wider at 63-136,00. Not really any more use for planning than a sheer guess.

https://www.nature.com/articles/35020688?proof=trueMay

I'm not so sure it's useless.   At some levels, they may have found it useful that he was predicting, with stated confidence, that no more than 136,000 were likely to die.  That's better than having absolutely no idea how many might die, even if combined with the possibility that hardly anybody may also die.

Having trouble digging up the numbers I thought the increase to circa 150k came later, in the context of possible spread to sheep.  No matter though, happy to run with 136k.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 15, 2020, 06:03:17 PM
I don’t like linking to ITV news any more than any other media channel.  But making an exception to my own rule,  this might be interesting...

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-07-15/positive-news-is-coming-on-oxford-covid-19-vaccine-writes-robert-peston
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 15, 2020, 11:43:17 PM
Still ‘just the newspapers’, but looking even more promising.   The Telegraph is paywalled, but disabling javascript seems to make the paywall go away.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/15/coronavirus-vaccine-breakthrough-oxford-scientists-discover/
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 17, 2020, 02:46:03 PM
significant return to normality by christmas he says, this guy truly is a moron.
we'll have another lockdown by the end of year.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 17, 2020, 03:15:07 PM
significant return to normality by christmas he says, this guy truly is a moron.
we'll have another lockdown by the end of year.

I share your scepticism.

Still, while it remains a long shot, nobody is yet ruling out the Oxford’s ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine being available in September.   It’s already in volume manufacture so it can be quickly rolled out if the trials prove, with sufficient confidence that  it’s safe and it works.  An announcement is expected on Monday, maybe Boris has has seen a preview?

Some are calling for a change in the rules to allow young, low risk vaccine volunteers to be deliberately infected, which might speed up the trials  enormously.   Not sure where I stand on that one, morally. :-\
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on July 17, 2020, 04:40:34 PM
Some are calling for a change in the rules to allow young, low risk vaccine volunteers to be deliberately infected, which might speed up the trials  enormously.   Not sure where I stand on that one, morally. :-\

Sounds rather dodgy, seeing as it would be impossible to test for every single possible trigger of the virus, seeing as were still not 100% sure exactly why some people are more susceptible than others.   There has been the odd young person with no prior conditions who reacted badly to the virus, if they were unlucky enough to find that person they would be up p00 creek without a paddle.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 17, 2020, 05:07:58 PM
Sounds rather dodgy, seeing as it would be impossible to test for every single possible trigger of the virus, seeing as were still not 100% sure exactly why some people are more susceptible than others.   There has been the odd young person with no prior conditions who reacted badly to the virus, if they were unlucky enough to find that person they would be up p00 creek without a paddle.

Agreed it's dodgy and as I say, I can't make my mind up whether I like it, glad it's not my mind that matters.    But it's supported by scientists with impressive CVs, including several Nobel laureates.  I think I read that AstraZeneca have indicated they'd consider testing the Oxford vaccine that way, if allowed to do so.

At the end of the day the risk for healthy young people is not zero, but it is damn close to zero.  Linking to BBC for once...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53426367

And also, the link within that page, if you feel like volunteering yourself.  :o

https://1daysooner.org
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on July 17, 2020, 07:02:45 PM
Considering I got chest pain from the TESCO equivalent of Dettol, don't think I will get involved.  Then again, I'm not young either, well maybe mentally.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 17, 2020, 09:51:39 PM
I won’t  be volunteering and I doubt they’d accept me anyway.   But even after the trials are complete I think my own main worry would be... whether to trust a vaccine that had been rushed?

An obvious risk is that the protection of the vaccine wears off with time, or the virus mutates to avoid the vaccine.   And that would disappointing enough but I believe there’s been precedents whereby, in those kind of scenarios, the subsequent infection is sometimes worse than if no vaccine had been given.

Still, the minute they start rolling out a vaccine that has the backing of enough respectable scientists to say it works and is safe I’ll be out there, queuing all night if necessary, to be at the front of the queue.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Chrysalis on July 17, 2020, 10:06:18 PM
So, local lockdown for Leicester, seems to be a fact     It will be very interesting to see how successfully it can be managed as I don’t think there’s much doubt there will be similar local outbreaks elsewhere in future.

Worrying that even a couple of days ago, the Mayor of Leicester, a former MP, seemed to be resisting and playing it down somewhat.   Then again, I keep saying we shouldn’t believe anything we read or see on news media, so who knows what discussions really took place.

Sympathies and thoughts to all who are affected, by the lockdown or by the virus itself.

I am only going to make one post on this, as I know I might upset some people with my thoughts been a supposed CT.

I have read the document issued by public health england in June, it shows the data for Leicester and some other areas leading up to the local lockdown.

It shows the following.

Leicester had a rising number of cases (R above 1 slightly).  However other LA's it was compared to had very similar R ratings, with also rising cases.  So this wouldnt justsify it been picked out.
Leicester had a higher then average amount of cases per 10k population, and per test, the per 10k population is the one that was triple over the 2nd highest area, the per test was only a bit higher.
The wards showing the increase in case count are the one's near the mobile test centre's the wards with no access to test centre's show low static numbers. (including my ward).
The author of the document, acknowledged the high test count per 10k was very likely down to the high levels of testing.  However obviously that didnt account for the higher than average case per test.

The BBC has had many articles quoting ministers claiming Leicester has a triple infection rate vs the second highest area, this is inaccurate, I dont know if this deliberate misinformation from the government or someone has just messed up.  I have been in touch with east midlands BBC over the past 2 weeks and they have finally read the document, and said they going to put it on a radio show for discussion, I asked about correcting the national news, they said that will only happen if its deemed newsworthy enough.

The problem been is they havent normalised the data to take into account for the amount of testing, the amount of testing in Leicester right now is at insane levels, door to door testing, able to use walk in testing with no symptoms, and on top of that the testing is been concentrated in the hotspots, its in effect a manipulated system in terms of the results.  There is 12 mobile testing units in the entire country and 8 of them are in Leicester.

Also we have the lockdown borders, these appear to be political.  Leicester has one of the weakest economies in the Country, the city is very Labour dominant.  So the political and economical damage of lockdown is minimal.  Most people are only concerned with their own well being.  A couple of tory areas are been released from lockdown on the 18th, when you look at the borders drawn up its nonsense, they are deciding if you in lockdown based on who the council is, not the proximity to a hotspot or actual infection rates.  Meanwhile the football ground is still able to host football games and children (super spreaders) have been authorised to go back to school on the 24th.

I know it sounds CT, but the source of my data is a government document, as to why they want to keep an entire city in lockdown when only small parts of it have hotspots? I think its a social experiment, and also to send a warning to other LA's that if they dont be proactive in tackling hotspots the government may lock them down, we are the example.  They are now doing extreme levels of testing which will be probably be useful data for PHE, as it was always an unknown as to how many people with symptoms are carriers, all this testing provides that data, in addition they are able to test public reaction to local lockdown's.  Next week there is a law been passed allowing them to forcefully prevent people from travelling (this is the one I hate), and shop closures etc.  It is funny these laws were not passed during national lockdown.

Resident of the city are approaching 5 months of lockdown.

Now what about the reason for the hot spots?

Leicester as I said is a very deprived city, it has high levels of immigration population, lots of low paid workers, over crowded housing (very extreme housing problems in the city, worst in the country), and sweatshop garment factories.  So far according to public data, there has been very little action to target any of these things, the only thing that is been done is extreme levels of testing, the testing will find people who have covid, but it wont prevent spread.  No factories have been shutdown, very few have even been visited, nothing is been done about over crowded housing, and very little action against unauthorised shops.   The emphasis seems to be just on testing and passing future laws to prevent people from leaving the city.

In addition no financial schemes have been extended for this extended lockdown.  People cannot get back on furlough e.g if they were taken off it.

I am attaching a graph as to what I think is happening.

Yellow area = population, red line = unconfirmed cases (considered clean), purple area and line = confirmd cases via pillar B testing (lots of this in Leicester), black line Pillar A cases (hospital testing), simply put I think Leicester has a bit higher cases, but most of this 300% amount is just more of the unconfirmed cases becoming confirmed.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 17, 2020, 10:41:47 PM
@Chrysalis, as you are the OP I hope you won’t be offended by a suggestion.

The political theories peppered in this thread are fascinating.   But I wonder if it is worth starting a ‘sister’ thread for opportunities to draw attention to perceived government incompetence, or Govt/media cover ups?

I just think it would be really, really, nice if this thread could be allowed to focus purely on the scientific facts and research.  How about a rule... if we can’t cite an academic/scientific source for our contribution, it would be better to post in the sister political thread?

Edited to clarify that Chrysalis, not I, was OP.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on July 18, 2020, 05:43:32 AM
That's very interesting, especially as Sheffield is still only testing those with symptoms and I believe we only have two mobile testing centres.

We could very well be top in the country if tested on the same level as Leicester, I would not be at all surprised.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 18, 2020, 08:50:05 AM
The increased testing in Leicester appears  to me to be a response to the statistical rise in cases.    The rise came first, followed by increased testing.

The reports I saw were talking about the shape of the curve, rather than the number of cases.  25% of cases within two weeks, and that was before they stepped up testing.  Hancock mention it at briefing, and BBC covered it on 20th June - 10 days before the new lockdown.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53120589

Quote
A mobile coronavirus testing site has been set up in Leicester city centre following a surge in cases.

It makes perfects sense to me that if you want to monitor the shape of the curve, you test as much as possible.  It does then get harder to compare Leicester with other towns, but it is easier to compare Leicester this week with Leicester Last week which, I’d assume, is what’s needed to decide when lockdown can be relaxed.

I have the impression the Mayor is being less than frank.  I know Wikipedia can’t be trusted, but his Wiki page at present...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Soulsby

Quote
Following his refusal to follow UK government law on lockdown[3] during the COVID-19 global health pandemic, there have been calls for his resignation.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 20, 2020, 09:08:44 AM
Good news day?

The world awaits publication of Oxford vaccine trials results, to appear in The Lancet.. :fingers:

https://www.indiatvnews.com/science/oxford-covid-19-vaccine-trial-result-data-to-be-published-coronavirus-vaccine-update-635538


New treatment.   Needs further trials and peer review, but industry seems excited and company’s share price has nearly trebled this morning.  :fingers:

http://www.pharmatimes.com/news/synairgens_sng001_shows_strong_promise_in_covid-19_trial_1345119
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on July 20, 2020, 09:44:59 AM
Still comes back to what was mentioned before though, how do we know these vaccines work if nobody has been infected yet to see what happens?
Also, how long does the protection last?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 20, 2020, 10:42:27 AM
vaccines are generally giving to you *before* you get the virus, by essentially giving you a small dose of the virus to build up the anti-bodies.
i would assume this vaccine follows the same process, so you actually wouldn't want the test group to have the virus before testing the vaccine.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on July 20, 2020, 10:44:30 AM
vaccines are generally giving to you *before* you get the virus, by essentially giving you a small dose of the virus to build up the anti-bodies.
i would assume this vaccine follows the same process, so you actually wouldn't want the test group to have the virus before testing the vaccine.

As I understand it this vaccine is synthetic designed to tell your body to destroy the outer shell of the virus so your body can kill it quickly.  Its quite revolutionary as I believe it means it will work with different mutations, so long as the outer shell of the virus is the same.

I believe part of the reason is because the body doesn't seem to produce antibodies for this virus for very long, so using the virus itself would not be effective.  Possibly also to reduce the potential for side effects from the vaccine.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 20, 2020, 10:49:15 AM
my niece has actually made some of these batches
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/ayrshire/coronavirus-scotland-ayrshire-site-forefront-22359461?fbclid=IwAR2g3MCsY_8vahJm1jfn8qn3JLLgml2Cnd215bH-2mXN_BY_A6GBFbN_hMw
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 20, 2020, 11:18:50 AM
Still comes back to what was mentioned before though, how do we know these vaccines work if nobody has been infected yet to see what happens?
Also, how long does the protection last?

We shouldn’t preempt, but the process is basically to select the trial participants and then give some of them the real vaccine and others an inert placebo, then then let them go about their lives.  Nobody knows which one they got, vaccine or placebo.   If the vaccine works, you then expect some of the placebo group to get the virus, but hardly any of the vaccine group to get it. 

You also monitor both groups for side effects etc, so that if (say) 90% of the vaccine group get an ingrown toenail, vs 2% of the placebo group, that ingrown toenails might be a side effect.

The problem is that the number of participants and of infected & uninfected need to be large, to be statistically convincing.   If just a handful were trialed, and only one of them got the virus, that could obviously be fluke.   I believe the Oxford vaccine trials were partly conducted large scale in places like Brazil, where the numbers have been bigger, after it started to quieten down here in the UK.

Hopefully though, today’s publication might end some of the guesswork. :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 20, 2020, 11:39:00 AM
If the vaccine works, you then expect some of the placebo group to get the virus, but hardly any of the vaccine group to get it. 

well not really, as the placebo group going about "their lives" might not contract the virus anyway, so you end up with bad data.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 20, 2020, 11:48:35 AM
well not really, as the placebo group going about "their lives" might not contrac the virus anyway, so you end up with bad data.

That’s why you need large numbers.  If only 1% of the population at large are getting the virus, then only 1% of the placebo group should get it.  If you test 50,000 people in each group, you hope to see 500 in the placebo group getting it, and none of the vaccinated, which would be quite convincing.

Ref today’s other news

new treatment.   Needs further trials and peer review, but industry seems excited and company’s share price has nearly trebled this morning.  :fingers:

http://www.pharmatimes.com/news/synairgens_sng001_shows_strong_promise_in_covid-19_trial_1345119


... Synairgen SP closed at 36.5p on Friday, now trading at £1.29,  nearly 4 fold, somebody must be feeling optimistic.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 20, 2020, 11:55:59 AM
That’s why you need large numbers.  If only 1% of the population at large are getting the virus, then only 1% of the placebo group should get it.  If you test 50,000 people in each group, you hope to see 500 in the placebo group getting it, and none of the vaccinated, which would be quite convincing.

it's not quite as simplistic as that
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 20, 2020, 12:35:53 PM
it's not quite as simplistic as that

Agreed, it's not quite that simple.  I was trying to simplify it a little, as a response of your previous post... :wall:

well not really, as the placebo group going about "their lives" might not contract the virus anyway, so you end up with bad data.

But none of us are experts in the field, certainly not me.  I do however have trust in scientists who are expert in their fields, providing they can convince me that the science is free of political meddling and other interference.  I have seen no suggestion so far of any significant political/celebrity etc interference in the science of the pandemic, thus far - I trust them.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 20, 2020, 12:39:04 PM
i'm not sure it is their jobs to convince you of anything.
you either accept the scientific evidence or you don't. your tinfoil hat appears to close to you at all times though.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 20, 2020, 12:53:21 PM
i'm not sure it is their jobs to convince you of anything.
you either accept the scientific evidence or you don't. your tinfoil hat appears to close to you at all times though.

Ok that's your view and everybody is entitled to their own view. So based on that, will you accept the results of the vaccine trials, or won't you?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 20, 2020, 01:06:20 PM
have i ever intimated that i wouldn't?
if the scientists deem it good enough to be used (and it's approved by the MHRA/EMA) then that's good enough for me, just like any other medicine out there.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 20, 2020, 01:20:06 PM
have i ever intimated that i wouldn't?
if the scientists deem it good enough to be used (and it's approved by the MHRA/EMA) then that's good enough for me, just like any other medicine out there.

Phew, peace at last. :drink:
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 20, 2020, 01:25:27 PM
there's only 1 conspiracy theoriest in thread!
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 20, 2020, 04:02:15 PM
Back on the vaccine research...

Hmm, a slightly subdued reception, if you ask me..?  I guess I'd prefer 'subdued' to 'sensationalised', though.  AstraZeneca are involved too as they'll be manufacturing it. Their share price is now up ~2.5% on the day, but had been even higher - dropped back a few percent coincident  with publication.   ???

https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/20/study-provides-first-glimpse-of-efficacy-of-oxford-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine/

Of interest, my highlighting, maybe of relevance to point raised by Alex earlier, regarding duration of protection...?

Quote
The vaccine also produced a response in T cells, a type of white blood cell that attacks cells infected with viruses, according to the paper. In a statement, Andrew Pollard of the University of Oxford, the study’s lead author, said that the vaccine is intended to induce both types of responses. “We hope this means the immune system will remember the virus, so that our vaccine will protect people for an extended period,” he said.

This seems to be the report itself, though I doubt whether many of us would be qualified to interpret it, certainly not me.

https://marlin-prod.literatumonline.com/pb-assets/Lancet/pdfs/S0140673620316056.pdf

edit: Added quote from statnews
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on July 20, 2020, 11:43:45 PM
It just baffles me that the body can have a response where it DOESN'T remember the virus.  I've not seen any explanation for why that is.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 21, 2020, 12:46:02 AM
What amazes me is, in my lifetime, we have moved from a situation where transistor radios would boast ‘six transistors’ or a few more for posh sets, to a world where the phone in my pockets contains about 10 billion transistors.

Yet, while significant strides have been taken, we seem to be still a long way from really understanding, other than by guesswork, trial & error, one of the most impressive bits of technology ever created... the human immune system.   I suspect it remains a lot smarter than we give credit for. :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on July 21, 2020, 03:11:07 AM
I suspect it remains a lot smarter than we give credit for. :)

Mine isn't, considering it killed off all my hair amongst other allergies.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 21, 2020, 10:16:10 AM
Sorry to hear about your hair. :(

Personally, I want to see this pandemic solved by science.  I want medicines for people who get ill, and I want vaccines to make it go away.  I’ll do all I can to cooperate, by taking medicines and getting vaccinated, and encouraging others to do the same.

I still find it amazing to think that when a new virus like this unleashes itself, and science fails to provide an answer, the human race’s survival is still almost guaranteed through its incredibly clever immune system.  A lot of people may die while the immune systems work it out, but antibodies/herd immunity/whatever seem to ensure that, on the whole, humans live on. There must have been countless equivalents of Covid-19 in the course of millions of years of evolution, yet we’re still here.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: j0hn on July 21, 2020, 10:30:07 AM
When questioned about a vaccine around 25% of UK residents say they wont take it.
Such a low take up would make any vaccine pretty ineffective.

The anti-vaxxers need tin foil hats grafted on to their heads so I can see who the idiots are so I can cross the street when I see them.
Just my opinion  :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 21, 2020, 11:11:43 AM
Such a low take up would make any vaccine pretty ineffective.

Do you have a source for that?

Or apols if that’s just opinion/common sense, you did say “just your opinion” after subsequent paragraph.

Not getting at you, it’s just that I’ve not seen any figures quantifying the requirements for vaccine compliance/uptake, and I’d be interested in the official answer. :)
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 21, 2020, 11:32:54 AM
to put a positive spin on it, it would mean 75% uptake.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 21, 2020, 11:45:47 AM
Pondering this, I could start to feel guilty.   I’m not yet of an age to automatically qualify for the annual flu jab, but I have sometimes been offered it in relation to the various other bodily defects I have developed.   I’ve always shrugged it off but not because I’m antivax, I’m not.  It’s just that I’ve always thought I was man enough to handle a bout of flu, and didn’t want to consume NHS resources in getting the jab.

Actually though, from what I think I’ve learned from Covid people such as me probably do contribute to the overall scale of each season’s flu.  Note to self, perhaps, next time it’s offered by a GP, the answer is ‘yes please’?
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 21, 2020, 12:14:45 PM
if you think you're "man enough to handle a bout of flu" then you probably have never had flu before, but more likely just a heavy cold.
the reason there is a flu vaccination for certain people is because it can kill them. if the doctor thinks you would need it then you should take it. and you can get it from various places, not just your GP (pharmacies for example).
the vast majority of people who say "i've had the flu" haven't had it, they've had a cold.

each year the flu vaccination is different as they have to wait to see which variation occurs. so just because have it one year doesn't negate you from needing it the following year.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 21, 2020, 12:29:35 PM
Actually I don’t remember ever having flu.  Another reason I suppose, that I have never worried much about it.  The odd time I had to call in sick with a runny nose and a cough, I always insisted on calling it a heavy cold, not flu.

I was apparently hospitalised with infant pneumonia but have zero recollection and parents, now deceased, never discussed whether it was caused by flu, some other virus, or bacterial.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on July 21, 2020, 04:56:08 PM
Sorry to hear about your hair. :(

Its old news, lost it when I was six I think, it grew back, lost it again when I hit puberty and it did not.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 21, 2020, 06:18:31 PM
save money on haircuts, bonus.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on July 22, 2020, 07:35:42 AM
save money on haircuts, bonus.

And shampoo, razors, aftershave.  Costs more in sunblock and hats though.  ::)

Not having eyebrows, eyelashes, nose or ear hair is not the bonus people think it is though.  All those things serve a purpose.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 24, 2020, 08:43:29 AM
loosely related to covid - NHS staff clearly taking the pee and the sense of entitlement appears to be strong amongst them.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-53514524

let's not forget that they chose this professions and all the training to took part in was to prepare them to do the job in times when they are most needed, such as now.
forgive me for being blunt, but they should shut up and get on with their jobs, and pay the price for goods and services that the rest of us pay.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 24, 2020, 09:44:10 AM
Slow news day at BBC Scotland, perhaps?

Personally I often ask for a discount, whether it be hotels, car servicing, whatever.   The answer’s often ‘No’ and there’s no hard feelings about it.

I agree that I try to look for a decent angle before asking, ‘customer loyalty’ often works. At face value, “I’m a nurse” seems a bit feeble and cringe-worthy.  Maybe if I actually was a nurse though I’d change my tune, especially if the word went around that it might work.   But as long as ‘No’ is an available response, what’s the problem?

PS: occupation related discounts.... Actually I do play that game,  it just occurred to me that I also often use “I’m retired” in my plea for discounts.   It sometimes results in an getting an over 65’s price, even though I make it clear I am younger than that.   :)

Edit: added PS
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on July 24, 2020, 10:07:21 AM
I don't know if it still stands, but in Sheffield you used to get a discount in the hospital canteen if you worked for the NHS, which seems fair.

Expecting small businesses to do it however, completely unreasonable.  I wouldn't say asking is wrong, but demanding or getting upset if they refuse it is.

I absolutely believe NHS staff, especially nurses, need a pay rise - but that is not the responsibility of small businesses.

Now when it comes to NHS staff having to pay for parking at work, I do believe they shouldn't.  But again, its not up to the people running the car park to pay for that.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 24, 2020, 10:15:28 AM
interesting buy why should NHS be exempt from parking at work?
what's so special about them? they chose the job.

incidentally, NHS doctors (in England) have just received a 2.8% pay rise.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/nhs-doctors-and-dentists-to-receive-2-8-pay-rise
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19) t
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 24, 2020, 10:34:47 AM


I wouldn't say asking is wrong, but demanding or getting upset if they refuse it is.

The headline bullet reads, my emphasis..
Quote
Small business owners in Edinburgh said they cannot afford to keep giving NHS worker discounts and have asked workers to stop asking for them.

It recounts just one supposed example of somebody getting upset by a ‘No’, the two nurses buying fish & chips. One argued when refused a discount, second nurse intervened and told awkward nurse to pay up. Newsworthy?

interesting buy why should NHS be exempt from parking at work?
what's so special about them? they chose the job.

incidentally, NHS doctors (in England) have just received a 2.8% pay rise.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/nhs-doctors-and-dentists-to-receive-2-8-pay-rise
The various places I worked as a software engineer, free parking was a universally expected benefit.   The company had to pay for the land, and I got to use it for free.  I agree with Alex, NHS should provide the same.

Only exception was in central London.   Employees could still apply for a permit to use the car park, though the waiting list would probably have taken you past retirement age.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 24, 2020, 10:39:09 AM
Back on topic, we’ve recently been discussing flu jabs, this looks interesting... more people to get them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53515078

I can’t find the story anywhere else and the Beeb’s version is vague on the most crucial aspect, but one to keep an eye on, once the following is clarified...
Quote
Those aged 50-64 will be offered the jab later, with the full details still to be announced.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19) t
Post by: chenks on July 24, 2020, 10:46:05 AM

The headline bullet reads, my emphasis..
It recounts just one supposed example of somebody getting upset by a ‘No’, the two nurses buying fish & chips. One argued when refused a discount, second nurse intervened and told awkward nurse to pay up. Newsworthy?
The various places I worked as a software engineer, free parking was a universally expected benefit.   The company had to pay for the land, and I got to use it for free.  I agree with Alex, NHS should provide the same.

Only exception was in central London.   Employees could still apply for a permit to use the car park, though the waiting list would probably have taken you past retirement age.

ok clearly your anti-BBC bias is clouding your judgement here.
the point of the story is small businesses struggling and the NHS thinking they are entitled to a discount being a problem.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 24, 2020, 04:20:22 PM
be interesting to see the percentage of positive tests results of those with symptoms and those without.
it seems there a reasonable percentage of those without symptoms.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 24, 2020, 04:25:52 PM
Depending upon how long the infection persisted, I think Covid is still possible.

A friend of mine almost certainly had Covid “in the household” early in lockdown.   All three people had pretty compelling symptoms, one still has no sense of smell or taste.   My friend seemed worse than the others but soldiered on for several weeks before seeking help.  By that time she tested negative for Covid but needed antibiotics for a bacterial infection.  Speculation is that she did have Covid originally, which triggered the bacterial infection, and then the Covid the got better, leaving just the secondary bacterial infection. 

I know at least one other person, a guy in his twenties, who needed antibiotics for a secondary infection after getting relatively mild Covid.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 24, 2020, 04:29:15 PM
i'm talking about people with zero symptoms and in a "healthy" state - we are seeing positive tests from people like this.
footballers, for example, who are getting tested twice a week (i believe at the moment), are coming back positive and have no outward symptoms.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 24, 2020, 04:51:29 PM
Sorry Chenks, I was responding to kitz’s post, not trying to contradict you.   

Your point is valid, ONS have been conducting household surveys on a random(-ish) basis for some time, and roughly 2/3 of people who test positive have none of the recognised symptoms at the time they are tested.  They may get symptoms later, of course, that’s unknown.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 24, 2020, 04:53:32 PM
also, the issue of false positives.
football team here had 6 positive results during the week, which have now come back as confirmed false positives.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Ronski on July 24, 2020, 10:16:07 PM
interesting buy why should NHS be exempt from parking at work?
what's so special about them? they chose the job.

incidentally, NHS doctors (in England) have just received a 2.8% pay rise.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/nhs-doctors-and-dentists-to-receive-2-8-pay-rise

Perhaps you should go and do what my wife does every day! She goes way beyond her job description, gets paid crap money for it too, and if she wanted to park at work she'll get charged for it to, instead she parks down the road and walks the last few hundred yards come rain or shine to help ungrateful people like you! And no she hasn't got a pay rise this week, unlike doctors she works alongside!

Best I go and do something else before I'm rude, but you deserve it!

Oh, and by the way most times she would queue at Tesco's or wherever, even though she could queue jump, and she wouldn't dream of asking for a discount just because she works for the NHS unless it was offered! Just remember it was not our extremely hard working mostly underpaid NHS staff that started it!
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 25, 2020, 12:51:43 AM
also, the issue of false positives.
football team here had 6 positive results during the week, which have now come back as confirmed false positives.

Must admit I was sceptical, when Chenks threw this into the melting pot.

Actually though, it’s caught my interest.  Article in the Spectator, crunches the numbers pointing out that as the population virus levels drop to current levels, if I have got this right, false positives increase to the point whereby the test may be no better than 50% reliable.  And with so many false positives it may be very difficult to ever prove it has gone for good.

Emphasise, I might be misunderstanding the article, other comments welcome.  Author has some credibility...
Quote
Carl Heneghan is professor of evidence-based medicine at the University of Oxford and director of the Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine

Paywalled unfortunately, but you can read a couple of articles for free...

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-many-covid-diagnoses-are-false-positives-
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: chenks on July 25, 2020, 09:41:53 AM
Sceptical? It's reported news.
You need to take that tinfoil hat off.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 25, 2020, 09:51:26 AM
Sceptical? It's reported news.

That’s why I was sceptical.  If you think ‘tinfoil hat’ applies to people sceptical of the Daily Mail and the BBC (and etc) then I strongly suggest that you need to consider your own gullibility.

But did you read the rest of my post, I WAS SUPPORTING YOU!!!   Apols for shouting, but leaving it there anyway.

Other people might be interested in my post so to avoid it getting buried beneath one of your childish outbursts, here it is again...

Must admit I was sceptical, when Chenks threw this into the melting pot.

Actually though, it’s caught my interest.  Article in the Spectator, crunches the numbers pointing out that as the population virus levels drop to current levels, if I have got this right, false positives increase to the point whereby the test may be no better than 50% reliable.  And with so many false positives it may be very difficult to ever prove it has gone for good.

Emphasise, I might be misunderstanding the article, other comments welcome.  Author has some credibility...
Paywalled unfortunately, but you can read a couple of articles for free...

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-many-covid-diagnoses-are-false-positives-
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 25, 2020, 10:24:12 AM
I’ve been following up on the author of the Spectator article, Prof Carl Heneghan.

He works for an organisation called Centre for Evidence Based Medicine, seems to be Internationally recognised, not crackpots.

Their Covid-19 section makes fascinating reading...

https://www.cebm.net/oxford-covid-19-evidence-service/

Recently, they explored the reasons why Scotland death rates have dropped to near zero, whilst England daily deaths drag on.   I’ve never accepted that at face value when there is only a road sign to separate one from the other.   Given ongoing political motives I had been open-minded to the possibility that Scottish Govt was cooking the books, but he’s more critical of PHE’s accounting methods... they (the Scots) are actually accounting better, it would seem.

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/why-no-one-can-ever-recover-from-covid-19-in-england-a-statistical-anomaly/
Referring to England....
Quote
A patient who has tested positive, but successfully treated and discharged from hospital, will still be counted as a COVID death even if they had a heart attack or were run over by a bus three months later.

Lots more fascinating articles on the cebm website, linked above.


Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on July 25, 2020, 11:00:14 AM
Considering what we know about the virus, a heart attack months later could very well still be a COVID death, although not sure how run over by a bus could qualify.

It really highlights the difficulty in ever assigning blame to a virus for something, when its not the virus that kills you but its side-effects, which could hit you at any point in your life as its impossible to check every single organ for damage.  Where DO you draw the line?

Ultimately medical science can do so much, we kinda forget in the great scheme of things how little we really know.  Its why its so amusing the conspiracy theorists actually think we know enough to create a virus that could be turned on by 5G at will.  :lol:
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 25, 2020, 11:14:43 AM
Considering what we know about the virus, a heart attack months later could very well still be a COVID death, although not sure how run over by a bus could qualify.

Did you read the article?   He used the example of ‘months’ simply because that’s where are are now, but same logic would apply to a heart attack 10 years later, 30 years later, whatever, unless we time-bound the statistical association.  Better still agree a number for that bound and request that all parts of UK adopt the same number.

Seems to me that using the current PHE method, Covid-19 has a guaranteed 100% death rate.  Because anybody who has ever tested positive will appear in the stats when they eventually die, no matter how long they live and no matter what they eventually die of. :-\
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: digbey on July 25, 2020, 01:19:04 PM
Seems to me that using the current PHE method, Covid-19 has a guaranteed 100% death rate.  Because anybody who has ever tested positive will appear in the stats when they eventually die, no matter how long they live and no matter what they eventually die of. :-\

It seems to me that you have fallen into the same trap as the author of that article.

Of the PHE methods, he starts off by saying "it seems that" and that "PHE does not appear to consider". But then continues with what he understands of the PHE method to be fact.

Is there any Government document showing the PHE method?

What the article suggests is that anyone that tested positive for Covid-19 would have their death registered in the month that they were tested even if it is many years in the future. This is nonsense.

"So, the COVID death toll in Britain up to July 2020 will eventually exceed 290k, if the follow-up of every test-positive patient is of long enough duration."
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 25, 2020, 02:04:26 PM
It sounds like Prof Heneghan has already persuaded Matt Hancock that PHE accounting is flawed, and persuaded the press to reproduce his arguments.

From a week ago...

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-07-18/publication-of-daily-coronavirus-death-figures-put-on-pause-as-matt-hancock-calls-for-review-into-phe-data

Quote
This means anyone who has ever tested positive for Covid-19 and then dies is included in the death figures, even if they have died from something else.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: digbey on July 25, 2020, 02:16:35 PM
It sounds like Prof Heneghan has already persuaded Matt Hancock that PHE accounting is flawed, and persuaded the press to reproduce his arguments.

Of course he has! The Government will clutch at anything that will make them look better, they are not unbiased.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 25, 2020, 02:45:41 PM
Of course he has! The Government will clutch at anything that will make them look better, they are not unbiased.

If you prefer the UK Govt to look as bad as possible in every regard then I'm sorry if this ends up detracting from that ambition. 

If it's any consolation, PHE is an Executive Agency of the UK Government, freshly created during David Cameron's time in office.  So, if (note 'if')  PHE have been as clueless as is being suggested then, even though PHE are meant to have some autonomy, the buck stops with govt ministers.  You'd still have plenty to criticise.

I did suggest that in order to keep to the science,  we take Government criticisms out of this thread, and started another thread for that express purpose....

https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,24952.0.html



Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: digbey on July 25, 2020, 04:37:03 PM
If you prefer the UK Govt to look as bad as possible in every regard then I'm sorry if this ends up detracting from that ambition. 

I have suggested no such thing, it's product of your fertile imagination. I said the Government would like to look better than the present situation, that does not mean that I would like them to look worse.

I do know who PHE are and I would suggest that they are as competent at statistics as Prof Carl Heneghan and are no doubt keeping their methods under review. The comment about being run over by a bus recorded as a Covid death is ludicrous, I'd bet he has no proof of such nonsense, hardly worthy of a professional researcher.
There is a problem as to when to ascribe death to a particular cause. We do not know what the longer term effects of Covid-19 will be, it could certainly be possible for an outwardly healthy person to die of the effects after 28 day (the cut off date used by some other countries). Unless you have any scientific papers showing that Covid-19 effects only last 28 days after apparent recovery.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on July 25, 2020, 05:10:41 PM
I do know who PHE are and I would suggest that they are as competent at statistics as Prof Carl Heneghan

I take it you can cite some your sources, to justify that suggestion?  If based on gut feeling, you clearly have more confidence than I do in government institutions.

Again for reference, here is Heneghan’s CV.

https://www.phc.ox.ac.uk/team/carl-heneghan

it's product of your fertile imagination.

Just for the record I consider that offensive, beyond the scope of normal banter that is acceptable in forum debate.
Title: Re: The Coronavirus (COVID-19)
Post by: burakkucat on July 25, 2020, 05:48:40 PM
As a purely temporary measure, this thread has been locked.

It will be discussed at Admin. level before a decision is taken. Please be patient.