Kitz Forum

Announcements => News Articles => Topic started by: adslmax on February 13, 2020, 10:18:26 AM

Title: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on February 13, 2020, 10:18:26 AM
Must be good news for those on ECI cabinets and also Kitz too.

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/02/openreach-uk-trial-finally-brings-g-inp-to-eci-fttc-broadband.html
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Bowdon on February 13, 2020, 02:05:51 PM
I'm on an ECI cabinet and speeds have been gradually dropping over time. They especially dropped when the next door neighbour joined FTTC. I think their phone wire uses the same cable mine does from the pole to the house (its a semi detached building). I lost about 15Mbps because of that. I'm at 54Mbps. If this can get me back in to the 60s I'd be happy.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on February 13, 2020, 02:58:49 PM
When Ginp was working on ECI many years ago it certainly gave me a good 10% jump in sync speed but it is all dependant on a shortish line/disturbers.

You also have to remember that Ginp *may* also lead to 3db targets which should also give a further 10% increase again all dependant on a shortish line/disturbers.

This is good news but i wouldn't get our hopes up yet we have been given false hope before.

I would certainly trial but I guess it will be just random cabinets selected I assume.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on February 14, 2020, 04:57:44 AM
Thanks max

I notice it said trial and that it requires the ISP to opt in.  Would be nice if we did get it back as it could be a nice little boost compared to a line being interleaved, but I won't hold my breath just yet.    xdB would certainly be nice if that follows.

It's interesting to note that over the past month or so, Openreach appear to have been playing with the amount of errors (and/or type of errors) that it takes before interleaving is applied.  There's a few ECI lines which have been interleaved over the past few months which don't follow the rules as we know them.

@Bowden - same here.  My immediate neighbour switching from adsl2+ to FTTC cost me a very large chunk of speed.  Cant recall the exact amount now without going to check, but something like 10-12 Mbps. 
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on February 14, 2020, 08:13:10 AM
I wonder if my line being below the handback threshold would push Plusnet into opting in?

Incidentally, does 3dB on ECI actually mean 3dB or is it more like 3.8dB?  Because with the Lantiq adjustment to SNRm that seems to be as low as either of my lines will go, frustrating as my Zen line could have full sync if it would push a little lower.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: broadstairs on February 14, 2020, 08:32:20 AM
When G.INP was turned on originally on my ECI cabinet it worked perfectly for me. Been interlaced more or less permanently since it was turned off!

Stuart
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Weaver on February 14, 2020, 12:12:46 PM
@Bowdon as you’re aware, I use IP-bonded lines; it works superbly and I thoroughly recommend it if you’re sufficiently fed up with your speed. Unfortunately we all knew there was going to be a honeymoon with FTTC, as you say, until your neighbour eventually goes for it especially. Still that doesn’t help with the gnawing feeling of disappointment I’m sure; not that I know, as I’ve never even seen FTTC.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on February 14, 2020, 12:16:15 PM
I wonder if my line being below the handback threshold would push Plusnet into opting in?

Incidentally, does 3dB on ECI actually mean 3dB or is it more like 3.8dB?  Because with the Lantiq adjustment to SNRm that seems to be as low as either of my lines will go, frustrating as my Zen line could have full sync if it would push a little lower.

It won't go lower because your line is banded.

With the right Lantiq modern you can go below 3dB.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on February 14, 2020, 02:14:47 PM


There's a few ECI lines which have been interleaved over the past few months which don't follow the rules as we know them.
My ECI lime no longer uses 2880 ES / 20 resyncs per day it seems to be dependant on SES also now.  If you get enough SES you end up on interleave even if you only have 500ES and 0 resyncs.  It is very annoying as I have to wait 14 days for it to be removed.  Basically a few seconds of SES and you have a reduced speed line for 14d.  Hopefully GINP will help so I really do hope GINP is coming.

I hope we get to see some people posting when they notice ECI GINP on their lines.  I still miss MDWS.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on February 14, 2020, 03:04:16 PM
It won't go lower because your line is banded.

With the right Lantiq modern you can go below 3dB.

I figured as much, but why would the line be banded in the first place?  I don't think I've ever synced at this speed before, went from full speed to much lower and its still on fastpath.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on February 15, 2020, 12:15:41 AM
If this is ISP 100,000 lines opt in how can this possibly work - wouldn"t this be a cabinet not specific line setting? The last time it was enabled we had to wait for the cabinet having it enabled and then everyone on that cabinet had ginp?  Confused?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: CarlT on February 15, 2020, 09:27:40 AM
DLM doesn't do the same thing to every line on a cabinet.

Because a cabinet can do something doesn't mean it will for every line - remember CPs can request specific profiles: this is a new one.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: burakkucat on February 15, 2020, 04:40:58 PM
Confused?

I suspect you are confusing G.Inp (ITU-T G.998.4) with G.Vector (ITU-T G.993.5). The former, as CarlT has pointed out, can be per line (circuit) but the latter is either all lines (circuits) per DSLAM or none.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on February 15, 2020, 10:39:46 PM
Yes you are correct I should stop posting in the middle of the night :)

I guess we may see some cabinets getting updated with new software unless they are already all updated.

I wonder if we will find out which isps are accepting trialists and whether you can volunteer?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on February 16, 2020, 03:38:37 PM
They may have already been updated. 
I had an overnight outage about 5/6 wks ago.  Only noticed because I was streaming something at the time.  If that's what it was, it didn't take long.

If like previous trials it wont be anything that you as a consumer can select to opt into.   
The ISP decides if they want to participate and then that usually includes all their customers using that product.   I suppose it depends if they think it will be advantageous and/or if it will incur any additional workload.   
Plusnet usually opt in to most trials, but it's not always a foregone conclusion - for some reason they didn't for the initial 'x'dB trial.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on February 16, 2020, 06:18:20 PM
My mate was enabled 61.5Mbps as I thought he would easily get around 72Mbps but until I checked his green cabinet it was ECI - and he is with Plusnet ISP so I told him to ask Plusnet tomorrow to get option in trial of G.INP to get it enabled
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on February 16, 2020, 10:39:51 PM
and the standard reps probably wont have a clue :(

1) The trial hasn't started yet.
2) We don't even know if any ISPs have yet opted in - or even been accepted to opt in as it's still too early. The opt in decisions are taken at a much higher level than CS/TS and we as consumers have little influence.
3) It will be on a ISP basis and not by line - backed up by the number which they anticipate will be on the trial.   Sometimes they do a by line basis trails which is usually restricted to say staff members and that figure is a lot less than 100k .

If they opt in, then we will find out eventually in a month or so.
As Carl has already said the DLM works on profiles which does allow for specific ISP profiles.   The easiest way I can think how to compare it which you may understand, is similar to how an ISP can select 'Speed' or 'Standard' and that then becomes default for all their customers.


Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ejs on February 17, 2020, 06:10:50 PM
https://community.plus.net/t5/Fibre-Broadband/ECI-Cabinets/td-p/1708051
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on February 18, 2020, 06:39:58 AM
I have asked AAISP to opt in, they have queried TTB and BTw to try and get some information on it.  So I expect they will opt-in if the option is open to them.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on February 18, 2020, 06:47:24 AM
My ECI lime no longer uses 2880 ES / 20 resyncs per day it seems to be dependant on SES also now.  If you get enough SES you end up on interleave even if you only have 500ES and 0 resyncs.  It is very annoying as I have to wait 14 days for it to be removed.  Basically a few seconds of SES and you have a reduced speed line for 14d.  Hopefully GINP will help so I really do hope GINP is coming.

I hope we get to see some people posting when they notice ECI GINP on their lines.  I still miss MDWS.


There has been a DLM adjustment unfortunately, we don't know quite know what it is, but SES is certainly a possibility.

I think the industry has decided to move to a lower expectations model which in turn leads to less fault reports and ultimately less hassle for CP's.  When the competition is selling 100s of mbits/sec, I think the difference between say a 50mbit speed and 60mbit speed isnt going to materially affect churn when compared to say 300mbit/sec.

If I am right, it explains the more conservative ECI DLM, the lower fault thresholds, the lower estimates, it will all make sense and also remember Openreach are crippled by Ofcom regulation with the revenue they can earn so it has led to a lower QoS from them.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on February 18, 2020, 06:59:29 AM
I have asked AAISP to opt in, they have queried TTB and BTw to try and get some information on it.  So I expect they will opt-in if the option is open to them.

Info is available here if you want to pass the link on.   Unfortunately you need an Openreach log in to be able to read it :(

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/newlogin.do?smauthreason=0&target=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openreach.co.uk%2Forpg%2Fcustomerzone%2Fupdates%2Fbriefings%2Fnga%2Fnga00820.pdf&fromMasterHead=1
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on February 18, 2020, 07:07:04 AM
Thanks Kitz, I will pass it onto Shaun.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on February 18, 2020, 08:43:56 AM
YVW

There has been a DLM adjustment unfortunately, we don't know quite know what it is, but SES is certainly a possibility.

I think the industry has decided to move to a lower expectations model which in turn leads to less fault reports and ultimately less hassle for CP's.  When the competition is selling 100s of mbits/sec, I think the difference between say a 50mbit speed and 60mbit speed isnt going to materially affect churn when compared to say 300mbit/sec.

If I am right, it explains the more conservative ECI DLM, the lower fault thresholds, the lower estimates, it will all make sense and also remember Openreach are crippled by Ofcom regulation with the revenue they can earn so it has led to a lower QoS from them.

I'm not certain what is going on, but not sure if its just linked to SES either... as the day I have interleaving applied after the 25 Err Sec spike was also just 25 for the whole day.       
What I do know is that they have been trialling a new system since Sept last year,  which appears to be more temporal than the existing/previous 24hr period... and is possibly catching very large CRC bursts that may occur in a short(er) time frame.   I'm trying to do more digging and if I do find out any info I will let you know.

Penalising a line for a single 25 second really bad noise spike which was ok for the rest of the day seems like overkill.   It 'may' not be as much of a bad thing to apply RS encoding to lines with a large amount of CRC in a short time frame to a line which has the benefit of re-tx... but seems a tad unfair and harsh to those of us on ECI's who don't have g.inp as a first line defence mechanism against noise.
   
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on February 18, 2020, 09:59:39 AM
Info is available here if you want to pass the link on.   Unfortunately you need an Openreach log in to be able to read it :(

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/newlogin.do?smauthreason=0&target=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openreach.co.uk%2Forpg%2Fcustomerzone%2Fupdates%2Fbriefings%2Fnga%2Fnga00820.pdf&fromMasterHead=1 (https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/newlogin.do?smauthreason=0&target=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openreach.co.uk%2Forpg%2Fcustomerzone%2Fupdates%2Fbriefings%2Fnga%2Fnga00820.pdf&fromMasterHead=1)

Does anyone can copy and paste here if they do have openreach to logged in. Hate it when they hidden (not shown to the public)

Please do not do this - roseway

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on February 18, 2020, 10:01:14 AM
I'm still waiting for interleave to be removed since my last SES spike but I am monitoring my line and when it gets applied again I am expecting a SES burst the day before.  It may be some other criterion but SES seems to be the most obvious at the moment.

Back to the ECI ginp trial what is going to be infuriating is if he trial fails again knowing that with a click of a button at Openreach end you can have ginp on eci lines.  It should be made an option that the end user can turn on off.  Add the option for the customer to set target db from 3db whilst they are at it :)

I hope there is at least one Kitz user on the trial to report back information.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on February 18, 2020, 10:02:37 AM
My mate on plusnet has requested for a trial on his ECI cabinet. I asked him to join this forum.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on February 18, 2020, 10:21:29 AM
I posted on the forum too to request consideration for the trial.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Ronski on February 18, 2020, 03:49:29 PM
Does anyone can copy and paste here if they do have openreach to logged in. Hate it when they hidden (not shown to the public)

That would almost certainly be in breach of the terms and conditions of the users account, and could cause issues for kitz if it was posted here.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: CarlT on February 19, 2020, 02:25:18 PM
Yeah as mentioned breaching NDAs like that is a bad idea.

It's absolutely none of our business what Openreach do behind their login wall any more than it's our business what other companies are discussing internally or with their customers even if those customers in turn use their products to sell services to us.

At best it would cause disciplinary action and at worst a job being lost.

This'll probably be made clearer once BT Wholesale have briefed their customers. That's usually when things become clearer as by then things tend to be less 'confidential'.

Either way it doesn't really matter. We know what's happening so details not so necessary. The new FTTP pricing stuff is far more interesting.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on February 19, 2020, 04:36:04 PM
The new FTTP pricing stuff is far more interesting.

Speaking of, its kinda weird that they implement the changes a week before the end of the financial year so the activation price is cheaper for that whole week before going up.

Why would you complicate things like that rather than just delaying the new pricing/packages to the week later?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on February 19, 2020, 05:40:28 PM
I've managed to get hold of my DLM MTBE data and by comparing with my own stats obtained from my router, I can confirm that for all days bar one that the Openreach MTBE data matches up with my MTBE calculations (give or take 1 or 2 err secs) which would imply DLM is still using the same MTBE parameters and is only using ErrSecs.

The one day which had a difference was actually in my favour.   DLM recorded MTBE of 3500 whilst my modem captured MTBE 1630.    I was a bit puzzled by this at first especially as there was no data recorded either a couple of days previously.    So either DLM didn't capture the whole days data... or....this unrecorded data may have been discarded to a Wide Area Event.   

Wide Area Events do appear to work on my cab as there have been two instances where I know I have definitely gone into ILQ red, yet DLM has discarded the data and taken no action.   One during a thunderstorm and the other where iirc there was a period of errors after some sort of power outage.

 

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on February 19, 2020, 06:03:06 PM
The above calculations do not explain why we are seeing some instances of oddness where a few lines have had DLM action taken at a ludicrously low rate of errors.
 
In other news I can however confirm that Openreach are playing and looking at employing a temporal DLM which has been up for trials since Sept last year.  This info is in the public domain (https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefingsarticles/nga02719.do) so I am not giving away trade secrets.   

Temporal DLMs do not run for a 24hr period and may only record data during either certain times of the day or may run for differing time periods.  (with the same params).  The idea of temporal DLMs is to increase stability for lines whose 24hr period MTBE is in effect negated by large parts of the rest of the day without errors.

Please note it is very important that this is/was a smallish trial and not in general use yet.  Only a tiny portion of lines are on the trial and that is only if your ISP is one of those elected to go on the trial.     
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on March 09, 2020, 11:02:12 AM
Has anyone heard back from any ISPs saying they are definitely putting their customers on the trial? 

Can't wait to see if come Thursday if anyone here gets on the trial. 

OR can reset my line off interleave and give me Ginp on Thursday morning it is due to be removed around that time anyway ;)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on March 09, 2020, 11:31:09 AM
My ISP Zen told me at this time that they were not taking part sadly for me..
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on March 09, 2020, 11:44:30 AM
Has anyone heard back from any ISPs saying they are definitely putting their customers on the trial? 

Can't wait to see if come Thursday if anyone here gets on the trial. 

OR can reset my line off interleave and give me Ginp on Thursday morning it is due to be removed around that time anyway ;)

Did I miss something? What's happening Thursday?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on March 09, 2020, 12:26:39 PM
Did I miss something? What's happening Thursday?

Hopefully a new trial of Ginp on ECI cabinets will start.  Full announcement in OP.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on March 10, 2020, 03:28:19 AM
Ah.
I took any date with a pinch of salt and browsed right past it.

I'd be surprised to see examples of Retx on day 1 of the trial.
Would be nice to see OpenReach beat my low expectations of them on this though,
Previous ECI Retx trials leave me a little sceptical  :D
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on March 10, 2020, 09:14:03 AM
Completely agree but I can dream that the outcome will be more positive this time :)

OR could have completely given up but they haven't they deserve some credit for this.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on March 10, 2020, 09:50:08 PM
EE didn't confirmed, but they asked for my details, so we will see on (from) Thursday if something change.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on March 11, 2020, 03:18:43 AM
Plusnet told forum as they start this next week to move this forward for some of ECI customers to take trial of G.INP not every customers.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 11, 2020, 03:49:42 AM
bobpullen
Quote
I've relayed everybody's interest and hope for there to be some movement next week 🙂
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on March 13, 2020, 06:47:43 PM
bobpullen
Quote
Too late to the party I'm afraid Sad

I'll keep you in mind for any further activity though.

Seem I was correct as not everyones taking part of this. Very limit one.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on March 13, 2020, 10:49:47 PM
No its not a very limited one -  As mentioned in the other thread (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,21320.msg411253.html#msg411253) the trial is for 100k lines via ISP opt in.

Read Bobs post carefully

Quote
ISP's aren't offering 10-30 lines each, you're reading between the lines. What we won't be doing though, is running this as an open trial. There isn't a team, nor the capacity to faciliate it, and I don't think it's a good fit for this type of activity anyway.

I simply noted the interest and pulled a favour, because in low numbers, I think some open discussion here could be of benefit
.

I think I can possibly take a good stab at what Bob did, based on the fact that the submitted lines didn't appear to go in until very last minute. 
ISP opt ins have to be in well before the start of the trial date so it gives the ISP time to vet the OR selected list and make adjustments.

Bob is far from stupid and will realise that certain PN customers do have access to full stats so are more likely to notice changes than say Sky customers.   He is aware that much of the problems with G.INP Mk1 was spotted by users of this forum, MDWS and feed back also on the PN community site.  Bob was heavily involved in reporting the G.INP Mk1 fiasco to Openreach..  who were totally blind and oblivious to it until he raised it...  so hopefully those on the trial will report any findings in the thread as he requested.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on March 14, 2020, 04:03:46 AM
I have had no further updates from AAISP which doesnt bode well.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on March 14, 2020, 10:32:13 AM
Thats sad  :(

The more people on the trial who have access to decent stats the better IMHO.     I doubt the average [say Sky] user using an SP provided modem would notice what's going on.    Probably those who benefit the most will be those with error correction and interleaving who should see more of an immediate benefit.   I don't have error protection atm, but it would be nice if I no longer had to worry about my daily spike landing me with interleaving.
I'd also be interested to see how much of a difference g.inp does make to my daily dose of SHINE..   as in reality g.inp isn't very good protection against SHINE type noise.    Also my line stats have changed quite a bit since G.INP Mk1 when I used to easily get 80Mbps, but I didn't see much difference to the max headline rate.   I'm now hit by crosstalk and my days of 80Mbps are long gone...  so whilst I'm not expecting much of a speed improvement, I am hoping this opens the gateway to 'x'dB. 
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on March 17, 2020, 02:38:28 AM
First person has enabled G.INP from Plusnet ISP just now from PN forum

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on March 17, 2020, 08:44:19 AM
I lost the lottery I had a resync this morning it has removed my interleaving but no Ginp :(
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 17, 2020, 09:13:31 AM
It seems to have tanked my SNRm even further, although at least the latency is much better.

I wonder if I'd be better off ditching Lantiq and going back to the Broadcom for this?

Code: [Select]
Chipset: Lantiq™ XWAY™ VRX268
Firmware Version: 5.8.1.8.1.6
API Version: 4.17.18.6
MEI Version: 1.5.17.6
Power Management Mode: L0 - Synchronized
Line State: UP [0x801: showtime_tc_sync]
Line Uptime: 7h 19m 6s
Resyncs: 4
DSLAM/MSAN VID:
XTSE Capabilities: 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x2
Annex: B
Line Mode: G.993.2 (VDSL2)
Profile: 17a
Trellis: D: ON / U: ON
Bitswap: D: ON / U: ON
G.INP: D: Enabled / U: Not Enabled
Virtual Noise Support: D: Not Supported / U: Not Supported
Attain Data Rate: 55.291 Mb/s / 20.384 Mb/s
Actual Data Rate: 61.020 Mb/s / 20.000 Mb/s
Impulse Noise Prot: 45.7 sym / 0.0 sym
Interleave Delay: 0.23 ms / 0.0 ms
NFEC: 32 / 255
RFEC: 16 / 16
LSYMB: 16 / 5410
Interleave Depth: 1 / 1
Interleave Block: 32 / 255
LPATH: 0 / 0
Line Attenuation: 12.3dB / 15.0dB
Signal Attenuation: 12.3dB / 14.9dB
Noise Margin: 4.6dB / 6.0dB
Transmit power: 14.0dBm / 5.7dBm
FECS: 0 / 199
ES: 25 / 34265
SES: 0 / 124
LOSS: 5 / 0
UAS: 141 / 141
HEC: 0 / 0
CRC_P: 0 / 0
CRCP_P: 0 / 0
15m Code Violations: 0 / 2
15m FEC Errors: 0 / 3
1d Code Violations: 1 / 48
1d FEC Errors: 41 / 239
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on March 17, 2020, 09:22:55 AM
If your lantiq works good, I wouldn't bother, especially that you got g.inp compatible fw on it, and already g.inp on.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: gentoo on March 17, 2020, 10:14:04 AM
G.INP was applied to my line last night, max data rate increased by 7Mbps ping reduced 10ms unfortunately I'm unable to harvest my error stats as I'm using a Smarthub 6 but still very happy with the initial results….
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on March 17, 2020, 10:19:20 AM
It show that plusnet do care for their customers for G. Inp trial while other isps don't
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on March 17, 2020, 11:01:26 AM
I wish I tried for the trial but didn't want to risk problems with my line even though it seemed to work fine for the short amount of time I had it the last time they tried.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on March 17, 2020, 11:03:30 AM
Plusnet have done a good thing here especially after the recent posts of the so called premium isps not really doing anything more (perhaps even less) for their customers when they have problems with their line.  Thumbs up Plusnet!
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on March 17, 2020, 12:42:36 PM
Resync'd at 01:00 this morning which increased my Sync Speed by 2Mbps.

Stats one hour before resync.

Code: [Select]
This information shows the latest ONGOING stats obtained at 00:00 on 17/03/2020


Downstream      Upstream                                        Downstream      Upstream

 
            Sync (kbps)    66037         20000                           Interleaving          1             1
 Attainable rate (kbps)    66100         25329                                    INP       0.00          0.00
       Attenuation (dB)      0.0           0.0
        SNR Margin (dB)      6.3           9.2
           Power (dBmV)      6.4           6.3                            SES (total)        154             0
RSUnCorr errors (delta)        0             0                RSUnCorr errors (total)          0             0
Errored seconds (delta)        0             0                Errored seconds (total)       2595          1441
       Bitswaps (delta)        0             0                       Bitswaps (total)       3608            92
     CRC errors (delta)        0             0                     CRC errors (total)      81819          1557
     HEC errors (delta)        0             0                     HEC errors (total)      31022             0
     FEC errors (delta)        0             0                     FEC errors (total)          0         16808
 __________________________________________________



Stats immediately after resync

Code: [Select]
=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= Plink log 2020.03.17 01:04:06 =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=

adsl info --stats
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason:    1
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 25163 Kbps, Downstream rate = 67547 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 68019 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State:       L0
Mode:                   VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile:          Profile 17a
TPS-TC:                 PTM Mode
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):        6.3             9.3
Attn(dB):        0.0             0.0
Pwr(dBm):        6.6             6.6

                        VDSL2 framing
                        Bearer 0
MSGc:           -6              150
B:              243             236
M:              1               1
T:              0               5
R:              6               16
S:              0.1142          0.3771
L:              17509           5410
D:              1               1
I:              250             255
N:              250             255
Q:              8               0
V:              0               0
RxQueue:                54              0
TxQueue:                18              0
G.INP Framing:          18              0
G.INP lookback:         18              0
RRC bits:               0               24
                        Bearer 1
MSGc:           154             -6
B:              0               0
M:              2               0
T:              2               0
R:              16              0
S:              6.4000          0.0000
L:              40              0
D:              3               0
I:              32              0
N:              32              0
Q:              0               0
V:              0               0
RxQueue:                0               0
TxQueue:                0               0
G.INP Framing:          0               0
G.INP lookback:         0               0
RRC bits:               0               0





Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on March 17, 2020, 01:54:13 PM
As an aside my throughput speed doesnt seem to have changed to reflect the increase in sync.   Not sure if PN need to update their profile.

My IPprofile at the w/e was 63.92 but I can't get a current figure from the BTw tester which is saying no data.


---------------
ETA
PN now updated my PN profile throughput now better :)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on March 17, 2020, 02:59:08 PM
After reading responses on the Plusnet forums I wish I tried to get on the trial myself now (see post #18 for link). 
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Jon21 on March 17, 2020, 04:58:14 PM
Has it just been people that are using Plusnet that have had G.INP applied? Not noticed anything with Sky. But would guess it would be done in batches?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on March 17, 2020, 05:11:22 PM
It is only a few select limited people at the moment I believe who asked to be put on the trial even though there is a recent post in the plusnet thread saying all eci users have had it applied.  I certainly haven't :( and is wrong information.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on March 17, 2020, 05:51:22 PM
Looks like only plusnet show up that they do job properly. I'm on ee, also volunteering on ee community forum to be in trial a way before, and nothing happened yet on my line.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 17, 2020, 06:00:23 PM
Dang it, had two resyncs so not looking good here.  Time to try the Zyxel I think:

Code: [Select]
Max:    Upstream rate = 20384 Kbps, Downstream rate = 58103 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 57383 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State:       L0
Mode:                   VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile:          Profile 17a
TPS-TC:                 PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):        6.2             6.0
Attn(dB):        13.7            0.0
Pwr(dBm):        13.7            6.4

                        VDSL2 framing
                        Bearer 0
MSGc:           -6              150
B:              227             236
M:              1               1
T:              0               5
R:              12              16
S:              0.1264          0.3771
L:              15193           5410
D:              1               1
I:              240             255
N:              240             255
Q:              4               0
V:              0               0
RxQueue:                99              0
TxQueue:                33              0
G.INP Framing:          18              0
G.INP lookback:         31              0
RRC bits:               0               24
                        Bearer 1
MSGc:           122             -6
B:              0               0
M:              2               0
T:              2               0
R:              16              0
S:              8.0000          0.0000
L:              32              0
D:              1               0
I:              32              0
N:              32              0
Q:              0               0
V:              0               0
RxQueue:                0               0
TxQueue:                0               0
G.INP Framing:          0               0
G.INP lookback:         0               0
RRC bits:               0               0

                        Counters
                        Bearer 0
OHF:            0               75992
OHFErr:         0               0
RS:             14660952                4937070
RSCorr:         5               4
RSUnCorr:       0               0
                        Bearer 1
OHF:            29011           0
OHFErr:         0               0
RS:             231595          0
RSCorr:         0               0
RSUnCorr:       0               0

                        Retransmit Counters
rtx_tx:         224             0
rtx_c:          0               0
rtx_uc:         0               0

                        G.INP Counters
LEFTRS:         0               0
minEFTR:        57376           0
errFreeBits:    407748          0

                        Bearer 0
HEC:            0               0
OCD:            0               0
LCD:            0               0
Total Cells:    51420457                0
Data Cells:     1541986         0
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     0               0

                        Bearer 1
HEC:            0               0
OCD:            0               0
LCD:            0               0
Total Cells:    0               0
Data Cells:     0               0
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     0               0

ES:             0               34333
SES:            0               125
UAS:            31              237902
AS:             467

                        Bearer 0
INP:            49.00           0.00
INPRein:        0.00            0.00
delay:          0               0
PER:            0.00            6.15
OR:             0.01            202.87
AgR:            57508.75        20203.27

                        Bearer 1
INP:            2.00            0.00
INPRein:        2.00            0.00
delay:          0               0
PER:            16.06           0.01
OR:             63.75           0.01
AgR:            63.75   0.01

Bitswap:        116/116         0/0

Total time = 8 min 18 sec
FEC:            5               4
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               34333
SES:            0               125
UAS:            31              237902
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Retr:           0
HostInitRetr:   0
FailedRetr:     0
Latest 15 minutes time = 8 min 18 sec
FEC:            5               4
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               34333
SES:            0               125
UAS:            31              237902
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Retr:           0
HostInitRetr:   0
FailedRetr:     0
Previous 15 minutes time = 0 sec
FEC:            0               0
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Retr:           N/A
HostInitRetr:   N/A
FailedRetr:     N/A
Latest 1 day time = 8 min 18 sec
FEC:            5               4
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               34333
SES:            0               125
UAS:            31              237902
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Retr:           0
HostInitRetr:   0
FailedRetr:     0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC:            0               0
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Retr:           0
HostInitRetr:   0
FailedRetr:     0
Since Link time = 7 min 45 sec
FEC:            5               4
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               34333
SES:            0               125
UAS:            0               237871
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Retr:           0
HostInitRetr:   0
FailedRetr:     0
NTR: mipsCntAtNtr=0 ncoCntAtNtr=0
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on March 18, 2020, 12:37:56 AM
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/03/early-feedback-from-openreachs-g-inp-eci-hybrid-fibre-trial.html
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 18, 2020, 10:20:47 AM
So far looking like its much more stable on the Zyxel which is a bummer as its ~4Mbit lower sync.  (though obviously these things are going to be related)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on March 24, 2020, 12:54:45 PM
As it appears things are working does anyone want to guess when the trial will be expanded as I feel I am missing out now :(

I should have posted in the Plusnet thread to get on the trial but didn't want to risk problems with my connection at this time but as things seem positive I wish I risked it now.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on March 24, 2020, 01:58:01 PM
If Bob managed to get us on the trial the way I suspect he did, then I doubt any more will be added until or if it goes live.   
Not sure which other ISPs opted for the trial but in view of the large amount they were intending on testing, then it was a high proportion of the ECI base.   It would be interesting to see if anyone on some of the other big ISPs such as BT/sky/tt see it enabled on their line.     Thing is most of their customers will be using modems which don't have decent stats, so I doubt many would notice.

I hope it does go through and Openreach roll it out across the whole ECI platform asap.    Then hoping that next they roll on 'x'dB,  which they halted at the last time at the very last min.

I had a mammoth spike of errors yesterday which I saw despite being on g.inp and I half waited with trepidation to see what the DLM did.      I think if my line didn't have retransmission to give it some protection, then DLM may well have interleaved me today.    Even with g.inp,  I got 3k CRCs and FECs went off the scale, so goodness knows how many CRCs that would have been without re-tx.    Mind you the burst did only last a few minutes, but I have seen the ECI DLM be a bit more aggressive than usual of late.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 24, 2020, 03:48:36 PM
I also wonder of the stock Home Hub 5A is as flaky as my OpenWRT version.

I tried going to back to it but the Zyxel seems rock-solid, the HH5A will maintain sync for a day or so then just randomly resync for no apparent reason.

Its curious as while the HH5A is known to be part of the original problem hardware, I don't think this is the typical behaviour.

Honestly though, while I got 4Mbit higher sync with it than the Zyxel, I didn't see any improvement in real-world throughput (even though I saw the Plusnet profile increase) so I suspect its just a crap implementation of g.INP as previously reported.  If anything the throughput seemed to struggle to hit what the Zyxel does with ease.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on March 24, 2020, 06:32:58 PM
Did you tried different vdsl fw on openwrt? 🤔
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on March 24, 2020, 07:26:15 PM
Will i actually see g.inp this time? remember on the last trial I never had it at all.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 24, 2020, 08:16:15 PM
Did you tried different vdsl fw on openwrt? 🤔

I thought about it, but honestly it seemed a lot of work seeing as DLM would likely kick in at some point causing any conclusions to be invalid.

Its just puzzling that there is nothing that jumps out from the stats to suggest a problem.  I'm kinda suspicious that it might actually be upstream causing the problem, as Lantiq syncs higher and I have zero control over what happens to upstream sync.  Just easier to stick with BCM as if they roll this out fully then maybe they will enable 3dB SNR which would get me back the speed anyway.

That said, I'm keeping my fingers cross that by the time the trial ends in August it wont be long until FTTP is an option.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on March 25, 2020, 09:51:33 AM
I noticed a new post in the BQM thread a few minutes ago and was having a browse through some older posts.

I spotted kitz BQM... ouch!

https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,21177.msg367178.html#msg367178

(https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/quality/share/thumb/9097e428aec9a35a78c378bb076667fb7877287e.png)[/url]

That's a nasty increase in latency and a huge amount of packet loss.

ES/SES are huge and FEC has gone off the graph.

https://kitz.co.uk/linestats/errors.htm

G.INP still active.
Curious if DLM will act or if it's essentially off on trial lines.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on March 25, 2020, 10:11:52 AM
Oh dear me! Was it like this in every PN customers? Or only ECI customers?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on March 25, 2020, 12:26:46 PM
Oh dear me! Was it like this in every PN customers? Or only ECI customers?

Neither.
Only kitz line.

I'm of the opinion something is borked on her ECI DSLAM.

A resync usually fixes it.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on March 25, 2020, 01:36:42 PM
She has this issue that comes and goes, g.inp mitigates the impacts of problems, but it isnt a cure all fix.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on March 25, 2020, 08:01:08 PM
Nothing to do with the trial.   That is my daily dose of SHINE gone mental - which it does from time to time.
I have something set up to alert me and thus prevent that mess by switching off my modem for a short while before DLM sees it.   

Unfortunately I'm having a really bad flare atm and have gone several nights without sleep due to pain. Plus lots of other stuff going on which hasnt helped.   It was about 6am when I managed to get to sleep and was amazed to find out it was 11am when I woke which is something I've not done for years.   However,  I had slept through my alarm and also numerous email alerts telling me my connection needed a reboot.

That mess _would_ have continued until I physically put a stop to it and it is why I monitor my line. Usually I catch it within 10 mins. Today I didn't.   

G.INP doesn't do much for SHINE.   FEC doesn't do much either when its that bad.   I've no doubt DLM will have spotted it.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on March 29, 2020, 02:35:26 AM
Since that horrendous burst of noise, I thought the DLM may hammer me.    But touch wood it looks like I've gotten away with it  :fingers:

After I rebooted the other day to clear the noise, when it came back up I noticed my SNRM was at 6.8dB but it immediately dropped down to 6.4 and as my sync was fairly rounded to 68Mbps (67790) and just assumed that it was just the DSM playing with power.   I happened to notice this evening my SNRM had gone back up to 6.8 again so out of curiosity I performed a resync.    Now connecting at 68960 so that's yet another small gain of 1.2Mbps giving a total gain of ~3Mbps since g.inp was enabled on my line.

My daily SHINE is still there as I'm seeing FEC's each morning for 1 min, but for the past few days it hasn't caused any E/Secs

No idea why DLM didn't kick in..  but I'm certainly not complaining.  :)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on March 29, 2020, 04:42:27 AM
If the line is Retx High I'm not sure what DLM could do.

Don't think the Huawei DLM would take any action on a 6dB Retx High line for high ES.
There's nowhere else for it to go.

If Retx Low I'm surprised DLM didn't try Retx High.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Weaver on March 29, 2020, 06:52:11 AM
Forgive me, I forget - is there upstream G.INP on your link now? If so, what does it do for you? You’re getting roughly 4% more downstream speed then.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on March 29, 2020, 01:28:29 PM
Re-tx low
 
I was getting practically the full 3600 Err Secs per hour for over 3.5hrs.
Aside from a small respite for a couple of minutes at 8:30, I was racking up at the rate of 1 E/Sec per second from ~7:30 until just gone 11am.

INP rein and interleave delay have not been added. 

Code: [Select]
                        Bearer 0
INP:            47.00           0.00
INPRein:        0.00            0.00
delay:          0               0
PER:            0.00            6.15
OR:             0.01            202.87
AgR:            69030.25        20203.27
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on March 29, 2020, 01:33:52 PM
Forgive me, I forget - is there upstream G.INP on your link now? If so, what does it do for you? You’re getting roughly 4% more downstream speed then.

This is a trial for downstream retransmission on ECI cabs.   ECI's supposedly cant do upstream.
Yes, the potential gains for those on ECI cabs who previously had Interleaving could be even greater.   
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on April 07, 2020, 08:10:54 PM
wow trial already suspended :( thats why not many on it
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: burakkucat on April 07, 2020, 08:27:27 PM
wow trial already suspended :(

Is it?  :-\  Do you have a link to the Openreach announcement, please?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on April 07, 2020, 08:49:53 PM
Is it?  :-\  Do you have a link to the Openreach announcement, please?
i can pm
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: burakkucat on April 07, 2020, 08:52:05 PM
Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on April 07, 2020, 10:10:05 PM
wow trial already suspended
Is ther somewhere officiall info about?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 07, 2020, 10:12:00 PM
wow trial already suspended :( thats why not many on it

I kinda expected that, its kinda risky doing anything that might decrease stability during the current situation.