Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: N0STIE on February 12, 2020, 05:54:07 AM

Title: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 12, 2020, 05:54:07 AM
Hi,

My switch over from PN to Zen has just completed but I am having an issue with DLM!

So their supplied router has arrived few days before the switch date so I was curious and plugged it in to check WiFi range, latency etc. I was shocked as just after 24hrs DLM applied 8ms of delay to DS as reported by their fritz.box 7530 router (I was 12 months without any interleaving with PN despite restarting router few times a day sometimes). So I plugged back my Netgear D7000 v2 hoping that it will be removed after 24hrs which it didn't happen. Then the day after came the switch overnight so I was like oh ok change of ISP will remove interleaving which it hasn't! I downgraded from 80/20 to 40/10 by the way.

Now I am worried why was DLM triggered? And what has it triggered? Fritzbox?
Is it 100% of chances that it will be removed after few days/weeks? My line is rock stable and I am getting full 40/10, previously I was on full 80/20 with 90/30 attainable.

And one more thing guys please take a look on trace route of Zen, is it the best route they could possibly do from North West (Liverpool)? I noticed it routes directly to London gateway?
After removing 8ms it will be 11ms base latency, so 2ms slower than with PN. I now regret the switch.

1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.0.1
  2    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  vt1.cor2.lond2.ptn.zen.net.uk [51.148.72.24]
  3    23 ms    26 ms    21 ms  ae-5.pe2.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.100]
  4    24 ms    19 ms    19 ms  ae-1.pe1.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.94]
  5    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  vl-50.ae6.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.57]
  6    19 ms    20 ms    19 ms  195.66.227.114
  7    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  151.101.192.81

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: PhilipD on February 12, 2020, 07:53:20 AM
Hi

Just sounds like as part of the move across your line was reset, so the DLM starts afresh.  Openreach now enable interleaving by default, so when it's been reset it has come back with interleaving on, so in a few days or a couple of weeks it should go back to as it was before.

As for Zen and their latency, well every ISP will have different routing.  Zen also have their own network so often routing is a little more complex as they get your traffic onto their own network.  I've seen posts of people with Zen being less than happy about routing decisions, so I'd say what you report is going to be typical.  You may be better off asking about routing in Zen's own forums.

Regards

Phil
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on February 12, 2020, 09:23:57 AM
Most of the comments I've seen being unhappy with Zen are because they have seen their connection have low latency using their Manchester PoP but then another time end up going via London.  Its less than optimal (as there is no way for the session to intelligently choose the shortest route, its purely random) but somewhat a none issue when you consider most ISPs only go via London, so you'd never see such a discrepancy.  Its basically that for some people, sometimes Zen is more efficient than most ISPs so people notice the difference.

They have had single thread speed issues in the past, but then what ISP hasn't?

Zen are just a more complicated ISP as their backhaul can be Openreach, Talk Talk Business or Zen, depending on what provider is available at your exchange.  Their future plans are very ambitious, to have metro rings in as many cities as possible so backhaul can be routed more efficiently and presumably so they can sell plain ethernet packages directly to multi-dwelling buildings.

From my own experience, there's really not much between Plusnet and Zen (Talk Talk Business backhaul).  Both can differ significantly in first-hop latency depending on a given PPP session, but tend to work out pretty much equally in latency once out on the Internet.  I do see ICMP packet loss on Plusnet frequently, but its hard to say if its always real-world loss (it sometimes is as I had to move my VPNs to Zen due to it causing dropped connections) or even if its just because my Plusnet line has far more errors than my Zen line.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: spaace on February 12, 2020, 11:04:44 AM
as said interleaving is applied by default now and will come off soon if your line is fine (all of mine were 24-36 hours after going live)

i have an issue on my isp that they have auth servers in manchester and london, ping times to bbc via london are 8ms and 19ms via manchester. I live in the midlands so i am going up then back down the country so i just redial until i hit london. it probably makes little difference to you as most endpoints you hit are likely to be in london anyway?

how come you left PN?
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 12, 2020, 11:38:29 AM
how come you left PN?

They didn't offer me another 12 months contract but 18 so it pushed me off. Apart from that I can't say bad word on them.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: tommy45 on February 12, 2020, 08:53:04 PM
I n your Zen portal what does it report for the technology for your service WBMC or GEA? if GEA then you will be routed to London and the only way they can change this is by putting on BTWholsale backhaul You would then have BTW Bras IP profile  that will restrict your max throughput (on max sync rate for product) by about 1-2mbps throughpuit less  due to BT's max IP profile being 77.45  and 77.35 for G.inp enabled circuits
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 13, 2020, 12:07:24 AM
I n your Zen portal what does it report for the technology for your service WBMC or GEA? if GEA then you will be routed to London and the only way they can change this is by putting on BTWholsale backhaul You would then have BTW Bras IP profile  that will restrict your max throughput (on max sync rate for product) by about 1-2mbps throughpuit less  due to BT's max IP profile being 77.45  and 77.35 for G.inp enabled circuits

Your current line technology is WBMC.

What does that mean? If I was on GEA, would I achieve better latency/routing?
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 13, 2020, 12:12:32 PM
Zen's tech support said my line has error correction off so I am not interleaved. How come my base latency is 19ms? They confirmed I am routed via London although they said I may be migrated to GEA.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: j0hn on February 13, 2020, 02:37:49 PM
Zen's tech support said my line has error correction off so I am not interleaved. How come my base latency is 19ms? They confirmed I am routed via London although they said I may be migrated to GEA.

All then how they are telling you Interleaving is off.

The DLM line profile reported in a GEA test is 13 days old.
If Seen says using this to check the line profile they need to let their staff know it's old.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 13, 2020, 07:38:50 PM
Well, they again confirmed my line has no interleaving.

"I have run through the statistics of your line and I can see your current profile which is:
0.128M-40M Downstream, Error Protection Off
0.128M-10M Upstream, Error Protection Off

This does show that Interleaving is disabled on your connection and you are correct, the line does appear to be of high quality as there are no ES or SES detected since you went active with us, which is great news."

An email from them.


So how come Fritzbox 7530 initially showed 8ms of delay on the migration day and it somehow is now disabled despite no resync on D7000. The downstream and upstream are 40000/9995 which clearly is interleaved? I am so confused now.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: j0hn on February 13, 2020, 07:50:41 PM
Interleaving can't remove without a resync.

As previously pointed out in my last post the DLM profile shown in a GEA test is from a 13 day old profile.
Check 13 days after your line migrated and it will show Interleaving.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 13, 2020, 07:55:43 PM
You're right.

No resync since migration so it must be interleaved.

Well 40000/9995 tells us about it right?
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: RealAleMadrid on February 13, 2020, 07:58:17 PM
Why do you think the sync speeds of 40000 and 9995 show it is interleaved? You need a lot more information than that to decide what state the line is in. Can you get some stats from the router?
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 13, 2020, 08:02:40 PM
Unfortunately D7000 doesn't provide any stats apart from sync

I think that because when I was interleaved the downstream always was at whole number e.g. 40000, when on fast it's always been like 79995, 39995, 39999 or 39997 depending on router. When I was with PN on fastpath D7000 was showing 79995/19999
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: mofa2020 on February 13, 2020, 08:24:29 PM
Unfortunately D7000 doesn't provide any stats apart from sync

Like the Linksys x6200 which I bought without knowing it has nothing to show  :swoon:

I think that because when I was interleaved the downstream always was at whole number e.g. 40000, when on fast it's always been like 79995, 39995, 39999 or 39997 depending on router. When I was with PN on fastpath D7000 was showing 79995/19999

No I believe it is not necessary to be the case, but the actual ping would be an indicator.

Then the day after came the switch overnight so I was like oh ok change of ISP will remove interleaving which it hasn't!

So you got interleaved while on PN?!
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 13, 2020, 08:51:27 PM
So you got interleaved while on PN?!

1-2 days before the actual migration to Zen I plugged in their supplied Fritzbox 7530 and after not even 24hrs have passed it resynced (still being with PN) and I found out it reported 8ms of delay and my latency doubled to 18ms. I kept this router till the migration that happened on 12th febraury at 5am in the morning. Then I found out it is still reporting 8ms of delay so I immediately switched to D7000 and still got same latency. No resync since I switched back to D7000. So I got a reason to think my line is still interleaved right?
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: mofa2020 on February 13, 2020, 09:00:01 PM
From the ping yes it is interleaved, did you use the Fritzbox 7530 and the line was on fastpath before this time? also are you on ECI or Huawei cabinet?
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 13, 2020, 09:20:24 PM
From the ping yes it is interleaved, did you use the Fritzbox 7530 and the line was on fastpath before this time? also are you on ECI or Huawei cabinet?

To clarify - I was on fast path for 12 months with PN and never been interleaved. First time it happened when I plugged in fritzbox.

When I first time plugged in Fritzbox 7530 while still being with PN I was on fast path for less than 24hrs (or maybe not?) Now I confused myself not 100% sure if it reported 8ms delay as soon as I plugged in fritzbox or if I was on fast path for less than 24hrs and it resynced adding 8ms delay. Kill me but I won't tell you now so confused lol  :no:
But one thing I am sure of - fritzbox definitely triggered interleaving to be switched on.

And I am on ECI, ~250m distance to cabinet

I am attaching stats from my D7000 v2. As you can see DSL uptime is 1 day 15 hrs and that is since 12 February around 6am. The migration to Zen happened at around 5:30am. Ok so I immediately switched to D7000 as soon as I noticed there is still 8ms delay after migration.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: mofa2020 on February 13, 2020, 09:41:28 PM
So that is the reason it interleaved now, since you are on ECI it means no G.INP for your line and probably the current interleaving will be changed by using the D7000 but DLM will need sometime to change it just leave the router on and do not try any resync.

I know it is hard to do without stats unless things go as you wish, but nothing goes perfectly..
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 13, 2020, 09:48:22 PM
Thanks for the kind words.

I hope it really is interleaving that will eventually go off and not Zen's terrible routing from north west.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: mofa2020 on February 13, 2020, 09:58:58 PM
Thanks for the kind words.

I hope it really is interleaving that will eventually go off and not Zen's terrible routing from north west.

I read things about ZEN routing here but at least when the interleave is gone things will get better.

And you are most welcome  ;)
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: mrk26 on February 13, 2020, 10:02:13 PM
This is actually interesting with changing modem. Last Saturday i switch my old unlocked eci modem for DrayTek vigor2760 as vigor got better specs than eci I though will be a small step forward. However Sunday morning checked stats booth (downstream and upstream) on interleave where last three months I was on fastpatch constantly, line approx 230 mts from cabinet (eci). I didn't have burst of errors, nothing, just swapped modem. Most strange for me thing is that, booth draytek and bt eci modem are with lantiq chipset, where in past I switched modems with different chipsets and never loose fastpatch. Does something changed with eci cabinet?
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: mofa2020 on February 13, 2020, 10:22:02 PM
Is the vigor2760 firmware up to date?
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: g3uiss on February 13, 2020, 10:34:30 PM
Thanks for the kind words.

I hope it really is interleaving that will eventually go off and not Zen's terrible routing from north west.

Changing ISP will cause the default for ECI interleaved to be applied by the DLM. If the line is stable it will revert to fast path. Nothing to do with modems or routers. Let it be and wait and see. Resyncing will just delay or even prevent the line returning to fast path.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 13, 2020, 11:00:29 PM
Changing ISP will cause the default for ECI interleaved to be applied by the DLM. If the line is stable it will revert to fast path. Nothing to do with modems or routers. Let it be and wait and see. Resyncing will just delay or even prevent the line returning to fast path.

That is interesting how my line got interleaved just by switching routers and that was before the ISP switch
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: tommy45 on February 14, 2020, 12:26:36 AM
Your current line technology is WBMC.

What does that mean? If I was on GEA, would I achieve better latency/routing?
Your using BT Wholesale for backhaul , mine is BTW too, Zen did migrate my circuit a few years ago,to their GEA and latency increased to lots of sites everything got routed via londonstahn  not Manchester, until recently they used to peer transatlantic destinations from Manchester direct, but they now go to London 1st adding around 7ms, the main issue was that the single threaded DS throughput was less and 50% of the multi thread, Zen were unable to resolve it, so migrated my circuit back to WBMC, theoretically due to there being no BT Bras IP profile on GEA you should see a small increase in downstream throughput than if you were on WBMC, Strange why you are routed via london on WBMC
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 14, 2020, 01:48:36 AM
So latency is lower on WBMC or GEA as I am confused now? They said I am routed via London? What does it exactly mean? I am in North west
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: mrk26 on February 14, 2020, 05:34:07 AM
Is the vigor2760 firmware up to date?
Yes, latest available bt fw.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: j0hn on February 14, 2020, 07:44:02 AM
So latency is lower on WBMC or GEA as I am confused now? They said I am routed via London? What does it exactly mean? I am in North west

Ignore the routing. Others are confusing the issue and that's not helping.

You said yourself this happened before your switch to Zen.
Zens backhaul or routing didn't add 8ms to your line while you were still with Plusnet.
Interleaving did.

The line would have gone to Interleaving the day you switched anyway. That's the default.

Just wait. There's nothing Zen can do. They can't modify the DLM profile.

Changing backhaul will still leave you interleaved. It will actually start the clock again on it being removed.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: mofa2020 on February 14, 2020, 08:41:19 AM
This is actually interesting with changing modem. Last Saturday i switch my old unlocked eci modem for DrayTek vigor2760 as vigor got better specs than eci I though will be a small step forward. However Sunday morning checked stats booth (downstream and upstream) on interleave where last three months I was on fastpatch constantly, line approx 230 mts from cabinet (eci). I didn't have burst of errors, nothing, just swapped modem. Most strange for me thing is that, booth draytek and bt eci modem are with lantiq chipset, where in past I switched modems with different chipsets and never loose fastpatch. Does something changed with eci cabinet?

Well if the vigor2760 is not giving errors and the line is stable I believe it is a matter of time for DLM to switch back to fastpath because there will be no reason to keep interleave.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 14, 2020, 08:51:11 AM
48hrs have passed since migration and still no sign of fast path :(
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on February 14, 2020, 09:37:41 AM
If you've been forcing resyncs / swapping modems/routers, it could take considerably longer.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: tommy45 on February 14, 2020, 03:28:44 PM
Ignore the routing. Others are confusing the issue and that's not helping.

You said yourself this happened before your switch to Zen.
Zens backhaul or routing didn't add 8ms to your line while you were still with Plusnet.
Interleaving did.

The line would have gone to Interleaving the day you switched anyway. That's the default.

Just wait. There's nothing Zen can do. They can't modify the DLM profile.


Changing backhaul will still leave you interleaved. It will actually start the clock again on it being removed.
If the OP migrated to the same Openreach product IE 80/20 40/10 ect and was previously BT WBMC then NO DLM reset would occur, I know this from personal experience i migrated from plusnot to Zen same product same address and the same back haul WBMC, If i had been provisioned on GEA  it would have caused a reset which is what also happened when after around 2 yrs Zen migrated my circuit to their GEA, DLM reset, same when the migrated it back to WBMC again , each time it took around 14 days to get G.inp back fastpath i think took around 7-10 days both times
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 14, 2020, 08:21:58 PM
If the OP migrated to the same Openreach product IE 80/20 40/10 ect and was previously BT WBMC then NO DLM reset would occur, I know this from personal experience i migrated from plusnot to Zen same product same address and the same back haul WBMC, If i had been provisioned on GEA  it would have caused a reset which is what also happened when after around 2 yrs Zen migrated my circuit to their GEA, DLM reset, same when the migrated it back to WBMC again , each time it took around 14 days to get G.inp back fastpath i think took around 7-10 days both times

I am not sure if I was on WBMC with Plusnet, but if I was and then switched from 80/20 to Zen's 40/10 WBMC then no DLM reset in this case as far as I understand? My migration to GEA has been approved by Zen so I can get migrated any time so then DLM reset will occur? But it will be interleaved by default anyway?
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: spaace on February 14, 2020, 08:35:00 PM
interleave will apply with a dlm reset, for me it was off within 36 hours both times ive had resets.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 15, 2020, 04:51:57 AM
Good news!

At around 2am my line resynced at 39993/9995 (strange right?) and finally removed interleaving.

Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [151.101.192.81]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.0.1
  2    11 ms    12 ms    11 ms  vt1.cor2.lond1.ptn.zen.net.uk [51.148.72.22]
  3    12 ms    11 ms    11 ms  ae-4.pe1.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.0]
  4    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  vl-50.ae6.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.57]
  5    12 ms    11 ms    11 ms  195.66.227.114
  6    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  151.101.192.81

Trace complete.

I am curious what has changed since resync? If you compare the above trace route without interleaving there are only 6 hops and before the sync (trace route below) with interleaving on there were 7 hops and seems like 2nd, 3rd, 4th hops are different? Zen haven't migrated me to GEA yet. Anyway latency is now good but I was getting 9-10ms with PN so if I get migrated to GEA, may I achieve 1-2ms lower? It can't be worse if I get moved to GEA right?

Thanks guys

Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [151.101.192.81]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.0.1
  2    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  vt1.cor2.lond2.ptn.zen.net.uk [51.148.72.24]
  3    23 ms    26 ms    21 ms  ae-5.pe2.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.100]
  4    24 ms    19 ms    19 ms  ae-1.pe1.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.94]
  5    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  vl-50.ae6.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.57]
  6    19 ms    20 ms    19 ms  195.66.227.114
  7    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  151.101.192.81

Trace complete.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on February 15, 2020, 09:11:48 AM
Routing changes, less congestion / load balancing so it was able to take more direct route?

It could equally be cosmetic as traceroute is only ever a rough guide as you can pass over routers transparently depending on how things are configured.  Plus as you can see below, hops aren't everything.  Talk Talk Business backhaul seems more direct but latency is actually worse than you're getting.

Code: [Select]
traceroute to bbc.co.uk (151.101.0.81) from Zen, 18 hops max, 48 byte packets
 1  losubs.subs.bng1.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.17)  14.021 ms  21.987 ms  13.167 ms
 2  ae1-177.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.38)  13.363 ms  16.488 ms  13.444 ms
 3  ip81-59.fastly-gw1.lonap.net (5.57.81.59)  26.291 ms  13.621 ms  20.924 ms
 4  151.101.0.81 (151.101.0.81)  13.412 ms  26.014 ms  13.239 ms

Code: [Select]
traceroute to bbc.co.uk (151.101.0.81) from Plusnet, 18 hops max, 48 byte packets
 1  250.core.plus.net (195.166.130.250)  15.372 ms  16.367 ms  15.489 ms
 2  84.93.253.83 (84.93.253.83)  16.198 ms  16.361 ms  16.114 ms
 3  core1-be1.colindale.ukcore.bt.net (195.99.125.132)  15.919 ms  16.519 ms  15.587 ms
 4  194.72.16.60 (194.72.16.60)  16.261 ms  16.547 ms  16.838 ms
 5  * * *
 6  151.101.0.81 (151.101.0.81)  16.637 ms  16.627 ms  16.375 ms
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: mofa2020 on February 15, 2020, 10:01:26 AM
Good news!

At around 2am my line resynced at 39993/9995 (strange right?) and finally removed interleaving.

Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [151.101.192.81]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.0.1
  2    11 ms    12 ms    11 ms  vt1.cor2.lond1.ptn.zen.net.uk [51.148.72.22]
  3    12 ms    11 ms    11 ms  ae-4.pe1.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.0]
  4    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  vl-50.ae6.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.57]
  5    12 ms    11 ms    11 ms  195.66.227.114
  6    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  151.101.192.81

Trace complete.

I am curious what has changed since resync? If you compare the above trace route without interleaving there are only 6 hops and before the sync (trace route below) with interleaving on there were 7 hops and seems like 2nd, 3rd, 4th hops are different? Zen haven't migrated me to GEA yet. Anyway latency is now good but I was getting 9-10ms with PN so if I get migrated to GEA, may I achieve 1-2ms lower? It can't be worse if I get moved to GEA right?

Thanks guys

Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [151.101.192.81]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.0.1
  2    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  vt1.cor2.lond2.ptn.zen.net.uk [51.148.72.24]
  3    23 ms    26 ms    21 ms  ae-5.pe2.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.100]
  4    24 ms    19 ms    19 ms  ae-1.pe1.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.94]
  5    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  vl-50.ae6.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.57]
  6    19 ms    20 ms    19 ms  195.66.227.114
  7    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  151.101.192.81

Trace complete.

Congratulations, these are good news to wake on. I do not think that removing interleave actually the cause of changing the hops rather than the resync. itself, changing the routes would help depending on # of hops and the condition of the route, in my country there is only one route from the city I live in to capital so you can imagine how congested it is, that would cause more ping and speed problems even when the hops are few with being interleaved too so it is a mess even the ping is not stable for online playing with ping spikes and packet loss..  :(
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: spaace on February 15, 2020, 11:20:11 AM
Good news!

At around 2am my line resynced at 39993/9995 (strange right?) and finally removed interleaving.

Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [151.101.192.81]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.0.1
  2    11 ms    12 ms    11 ms  vt1.cor2.lond1.ptn.zen.net.uk [51.148.72.22]
  3    12 ms    11 ms    11 ms  ae-4.pe1.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.0]
  4    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  vl-50.ae6.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.57]
  5    12 ms    11 ms    11 ms  195.66.227.114
  6    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  151.101.192.81

Trace complete.

I am curious what has changed since resync? If you compare the above trace route without interleaving there are only 6 hops and before the sync (trace route below) with interleaving on there were 7 hops and seems like 2nd, 3rd, 4th hops are different? Zen haven't migrated me to GEA yet. Anyway latency is now good but I was getting 9-10ms with PN so if I get migrated to GEA, may I achieve 1-2ms lower? It can't be worse if I get moved to GEA right?

Thanks guys

Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [151.101.192.81]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.0.1
  2    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  vt1.cor2.lond2.ptn.zen.net.uk [51.148.72.24]
  3    23 ms    26 ms    21 ms  ae-5.pe2.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.100]
  4    24 ms    19 ms    19 ms  ae-1.pe1.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.94]
  5    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  vl-50.ae6.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.57]
  6    19 ms    20 ms    19 ms  195.66.227.114
  7    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  151.101.192.81

Trace complete.

as the second hop 9first on the isp) is different it will be different routing. was 11ms same as PN?
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 15, 2020, 02:30:14 PM
as the second hop 9first on the isp) is different it will be different routing. was 11ms same as PN?

With PN 1st hop or 2nd was usually 9ms and final hop 9-10ms. I can tell the difference in games on the same servers I played while on PN. With Zen it is around 2-3ms higher. Not a big deal but still.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: spaace on February 15, 2020, 05:04:02 PM
think it is in your head if you can feel 1 or 2 ms difference :)
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 15, 2020, 06:20:29 PM
think it is in your head if you can feel 1 or 2 ms difference :)

I just like to see lower number  ;D
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: g3uiss on February 15, 2020, 06:29:03 PM
Unless Iím past it, I canít see any connection between interleaving and routing. Save for the fact when a resync occurs you will get a new session, that might take a different route.

However if you were to keep dropping the DSL the DLM will interleave you and or,  band your connection.

If your using a separate router you could drop the PPP and see if you can improve the 1/2 ms delay. However it might not be good for your wellbeing  ;D

If it were me with a connection like that, I would just be very happy  :P
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 16, 2020, 12:45:52 AM
Unless Iím past it, I canít see any connection between interleaving and routing. Save for the fact when a resync occurs you will get a new session, that might take a different route.

However if you were to keep dropping the DSL the DLM will interleave you and or,  band your connection.

If your using a separate router you could drop the PPP and see if you can improve the 1/2 ms delay. However it might not be good for your wellbeing  ;D

If it were me with a connection like that, I would just be very happy  :P

You're right. There is nothing to complain about considering how our network infrastructure is. I am happy overall, just trying to get to know if my latency can be improved further if used to be lower.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 16, 2020, 08:39:04 AM
I'll ask Zen to move me to their GEA, if it turns out worse than WBMC I can always go back..

Oh and this is interesting, I dropped PPP session few times by pressing "disconnect" on my D7000 and it reduced the latency to 10-11ms, I believe it didn't drop DSL because when I clicked 'connect' internet went back in like 2 seconds? And DSL stats seem to be the same. I believe it takes about a minute to connect back to internet if DSL is dropped.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: mofa2020 on February 16, 2020, 09:52:52 AM
Oh and this is interesting, I dropped PPP session few times by pressing "disconnect" on my D7000 and it reduced the latency to 10-11ms, I believe it didn't drop DSL because when I clicked 'connect' internet went back in like 2 seconds? And DSL stats seem to be the same. I believe it takes about a minute to connect back to internet if DSL is dropped.

Yes ppp session is just reconnecting with ISP but the DSL service is no affected at all as you said it will take a minute to resync for a full DSL resync. but did the hops changed? or just the same with less ping,, if you want to try GEA it is ok though it may lead to a DLM reset (I do not know) but if DLM changed anything like applying interleave by default then it would a matter of time and it will be sorted out..

Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 16, 2020, 10:42:08 AM
Yes ppp session is just reconnecting with ISP but the DSL service is no affected at all as you said it will take a minute to resync for a full DSL resync. but did the hops changed? or just the same with less ping,, if you want to try GEA it is ok though it may lead to a DLM reset (I do not know) but if DLM changed anything like applying interleave by default then it would a matter of time and it will be sorted out..

Yep the hops changed to what they were previously (lond2). I want to try GEA because why not? Nothing to lose really apart from being interleaved once again but it will be matter of time when it will vanish. If latency will be worse in terms of peering/routing - but I doubt it, then I'll ask to be migrated back to WBMC and of course I'll be forcing PPP drops to achieve lowest latency possible which should be 9-10ms. If not, then I will be happy with my 10-11ms.

Coming back to dropping PPP I highlighted what exactly changes when I click "disconnect" and "connect". There is nothing about DSL in router logs, only that it connected to internet and IP [xxx]. Last time I dropped it 5hrs ago. Are you sure it's not dropping DSL?

Show Statistics
 
System Up Time 4 days 06:45:23
Port   Status   TxPkts   RxPkts   Collisions   Tx B/s   Rx B/s   Up Time
WAN   VDSL Link   265508   411509   0   1685   10648   05:47:41
LAN1   1000M/Full   34654560   17189598   0   8122266   11228760   4 days 06:45:23
LAN2   Link Down   --
LAN3   Link Down   --
LAN4   Link Down   --
2.4G WLAN b/g/n   --   --   --   --   --   --   --
5G WLAN a/n/ac   1300M   27932420   12319075   0   3246   3440   4 days 06:45:23

VDSL Link   Downstream   Upstream
Connection Speed   39993 kbps   9995 kbps
Line Attenuation   11.9 db   10.7 db
Noise Margin   23.0 db   18.6 db

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the other hand, I've heard some routers such as Drayteks can reduce latency by 2ms comparing to routers supplied by ISP. I am wondering if that still might be the same in my case where I already have D7000 and it gives me 1ms lower than Zen's fritzbox 7530.

I'd love to achieve 8ms from north west as some people do @boost I am looking at you  :cool:
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: mofa2020 on February 16, 2020, 03:49:20 PM
Yes, WAN disconnect/connect should affect ppp session only and do not affect neither the DSL connection nor DLM at least for routers I dealt with and you said the evidence that proves it as you mentioned it took 2 seconds to reconnect which no router/dsl service can resync. in just 2 seconds it needs about 30 seconds to fully resync. DSL and new PPP session to start.

The WAN VDSL link time probably only means the internet up time which is actually the ppp session, because "as an experiment" if you edited PPP username/pasword with anything wrong DSL would still sync. normally with line stats and everything BUT the PPP session with ISP will be down due to the wrong settings entered so the WAN VDSL link will be down.

For the changed hops probably due to getting a different IP from ISP which is randomly switching between routs, may be with static IP it will be the same hops all the time as I do not know it is determined by every PPP session start or IP change.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 17, 2020, 07:25:16 AM
Yes, WAN disconnect/connect should affect ppp session only and do not affect neither the DSL connection nor DLM at least for routers I dealt with and you said the evidence that proves it as you mentioned it took 2 seconds to reconnect which no router/dsl service can resync. in just 2 seconds it needs about 30 seconds to fully resync. DSL and new PPP session to start.

The WAN VDSL link time probably only means the internet up time which is actually the ppp session, because "as an experiment" if you edited PPP username/pasword with anything wrong DSL would still sync. normally with line stats and everything BUT the PPP session with ISP will be down due to the wrong settings entered so the WAN VDSL link will be down.

For the changed hops probably due to getting a different IP from ISP which is randomly switching between routs, may be with static IP it will be the same hops all the time as I do not know it is determined by every PPP session start or IP change.

Thanks for keeping my stress down. Zen provide a static IP.

Once my line is migrated to GEA and interleaving removed I'll update you further.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on February 17, 2020, 07:33:15 AM
As I understand it, which equipment your PPP session terminates on at Zen is random or at least load balanced in some way.  This is why it used to be sometimes you'd go via Manchester and sometimes London, but even if you're always going via London it can be a different endpoint and so cause latency differences.

I'm not sure how other ISPs deal with the same thing, but I know years ago when I was on Plusnet they used to have a similar issue where one endpoint would get contended and you'd have to drop the session a few times to get on another one.

Worth noting, I've never seen less than 13ms on Plusnet or Zen VDSL.  Even though Plusnet used to have 8ms first hop and Zen 12ms, they equalled out by the second hop.  Until my Plusnet line got interleaved recently that is. :(
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 17, 2020, 07:35:25 AM
May I ask where about in country are you Alex?
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on February 17, 2020, 08:08:37 AM
Sheffield, but its also worth noting my line technology is Talk Talk Business.

The curious thing is, looking at the comparison now with 8ms interleaving on the Plusnet line, it looks like it would be quicker  than Zen to bbc.co.uk if both lines were fastpath.  I only tested Google DNS before.

Code: [Select]
1  250.core.plus.net (195.166.130.250)  15.384 ms  15.417 ms  15.228 ms
 2  84.93.253.83 (84.93.253.83)  16.384 ms  15.999 ms  16.542 ms
 3  core1-BE1.colindale.ukcore.bt.net (195.99.125.132)  15.937 ms  15.927 ms  16.199 ms
 4  peer2-et0-0-1.slough.ukcore.bt.net (62.172.103.202)  17.286 ms  17.127 ms  16.580 ms
 5  * * *
 6  151.101.128.81 (151.101.128.81)  16.817 ms  16.755 ms  16.791 ms

Code: [Select]
1  losubs.subs.bng1.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.17)  16.045 ms  13.161 ms  13.177 ms
 2  ae1-177.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.38)  17.066 ms  22.040 ms  13.424 ms
 3  ip81-59.fastly-gw1.lonap.net (5.57.81.59)  16.211 ms  19.391 ms  14.100 ms
 4  151.101.128.81 (151.101.128.81)  19.194 ms  15.838 ms  13.512 ms

But Plusnet seems to have the same issue for me as you with Zen, sometimes the first hop will be 8ms, sometimes it will be 13ms.
I'm not sure if its even PPP session related as I never checked the logs to see if the connection had dropped when it changed.

In all honesty though, the biggest improvement I found on my line latency wise has been switching to pfSense Release Candidate on my router.  No difference to ping times but DNS seems to be lightening fast now.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: mofa2020 on February 17, 2020, 09:46:32 AM
Thanks for keeping my stress down. Zen provide a static IP.

Once my line is migrated to GEA and interleaving removed I'll update you further.

Any time  :) and thanks for keeping me updated..
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 17, 2020, 02:11:46 PM
After reading some of the threads at various forums it seems like people are getting worse latency while on GEA than on WBMC such as @tommy45?

I am now not quite sure whether I should migrate to GEA as Zen just replied that I won't be able to migrate back to WBMC if my latency gets worse.

As far as I understand Zen's GEA routes from north west to London and back to Manchester which may double the latency while WBMC goes via Manchester to London?

Anyone in North west area and with Zen GEA can maybe post their latency?

Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: spaace on February 17, 2020, 03:08:49 PM
I just like to see lower number  ;D

i know the feeling :D

and redialling the PPP doesn't affect DLM (at least on my draytek) - i have been known to do 50+ redials to get off my ISP's manchester auth server (19ms to bbc) to get on the london one (7ms to bbc)
i am in the midlands so going up to manchester and down to london makes no sense, but if you are already in the north west i can;t imagine something similar making much difference?
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Chrysalis on February 18, 2020, 06:57:01 AM
Zen's tech support said my line has error correction off so I am not interleaved. How come my base latency is 19ms? They confirmed I am routed via London although they said I may be migrated to GEA.

I can tell you without even seeing your line stats they are "probably" wrong.

The reason is Openreach default profile is now interleaved.  The days of default fast path are over.

It is possible of course though that you didnt get a DLM reset, and the latency increase is down to the routing.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Chrysalis on February 18, 2020, 07:02:34 AM
If the OP migrated to the same Openreach product IE 80/20 40/10 ect and was previously BT WBMC then NO DLM reset would occur, I know this from personal experience i migrated from plusnot to Zen same product same address and the same back haul WBMC, If i had been provisioned on GEA  it would have caused a reset which is what also happened when after around 2 yrs Zen migrated my circuit to their GEA, DLM reset, same when the migrated it back to WBMC again , each time it took around 14 days to get G.inp back fastpath i think took around 7-10 days both times


Remember there is different types of BTw. https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/wbc_wbmc.htm

e.g. Plusnet used to be on WBMC shared and are now on dedicated, whilst I expect Zen is probably on shared.   So those may be enough to do the DLM reset.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: CarlT on February 18, 2020, 07:32:17 PM
Openreach don't see a change moving from WBC to WBMC, that is all done by BT Wholesale and Openreach just see a line remaining with BT Wholesale. No order placed with Openreach.

A move to straight GEA, whether Zen, Vodafone, TalkTalk, Sky, whomever, does require Openreach changes and will trigger a DLM reset.

This is due to the need to remap the circuit to a different VLAN so that it goes to the new operator's equipment when it leaves Openreach equipment.

Obviously BT Wholesale to BT Wholesale there's nothing for Openreach to do: the data stays on the same VLAN as far as they are concerned and BT Wholesale handle it after that.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on February 18, 2020, 09:08:07 PM
So when I'm say connected to Zen over Talk Talk Business, which technology is this using?
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: CarlT on February 19, 2020, 08:29:53 AM
GEA via TalkTalk Business.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 20, 2020, 02:08:50 AM
GEA via TalkTalk Business.

Does that mean I will also be connected via Talk Talk bussines when I migrate to Zen's GEA?
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on February 20, 2020, 09:59:19 AM
Does that mean I will also be connected via Talk Talk bussines when I migrate to Zen's GEA?

If there is no Zen at your exchange but there is Talk Talk, I'd expect so, but I'm no expert on this.  ;)
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: tommy45 on February 23, 2020, 08:59:56 AM
If there is no Zen at your exchange but there is Talk Talk, I'd expect so, but I'm no expert on this.  ;)
I wasn't aware of them using talk talk,for data transit, my exchange has both TT and ZEN GEA  but I'm thankfully connected via WMBC for me the latency is lower and it isn't affected by this single threaded throughput issue that seems to keep rearing it head for some of their GEA customers the only downside is the BT bras IP profile that shaves around a 1mbps off the max possible throughput of 76mbps if you have the full 79999kbps sync rate
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 23, 2020, 01:00:00 PM
I wasn't aware of them using talk talk,for data transit, my exchange has both TT and ZEN GEA  but I'm thankfully connected via WMBC for me the latency is lower and it isn't affected by this single threaded throughput issue that seems to keep rearing it head for some of their GEA customers the only downside is the BT bras IP profile that shaves around a 1mbps off the max possible throughput of 76mbps if you have the full 79999kbps sync rate

My order has been placed to be migrated to GEA. Now reading those posts I am not sure whether I should csncell it and stay on WBMC or migrate to GEA. My latency is currently at 10-11ms and no guarantee it will be the same or lower but it could as well be higher
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 24, 2020, 12:04:25 AM
I simply don't understand how come my friend's ISP is enta.net, his base latency is 10ms, mine is 10ms as well, but his latency to various european servers is around 10ms lower despite exactly same routing??

Anyone can explain?
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on February 24, 2020, 02:07:17 AM
I simply don't understand how come my friend's ISP is enta.net, his base latency is 10ms, mine is 10ms as well, but his latency to various european servers is around 10ms lower despite exactly same routing??

Anyone can explain?

I gave up trying to understand routing long ago, but jitter/latency variance can confuse things further.

eg.

Code: [Select]
1  losubs.subs.bng1.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.17)  15.563 ms  13.406 ms  13.363 ms
 2  ae1-177.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.38)  13.863 ms  13.899 ms  14.631 ms
 3  ip81-59.fastly-gw1.lonap.net (5.57.81.59)  13.824 ms  13.874 ms  13.677 ms
 4  151.101.192.81 (151.101.192.81)  13.133 ms  13.436 ms  14.594 ms

Code: [Select]
PING bbc.co.uk (151.101.192.81) from 82.69.11.30: 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=0 ttl=61 time=13.552 ms
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=1 ttl=61 time=14.277 ms
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=2 ttl=61 time=15.706 ms
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=3 ttl=61 time=13.470 ms
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=4 ttl=61 time=15.165 ms
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=5 ttl=61 time=13.324 ms
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=6 ttl=61 time=15.840 ms
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=7 ttl=61 time=16.392 ms
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=8 ttl=61 time=14.436 ms
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=9 ttl=61 time=15.267 ms

--- bbc.co.uk ping statistics ---
10 packets transmitted, 10 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 13.324/14.743/16.392/1.033 ms

One thing is that sometimes the route might be different to what you think, as there can be tunneling that wont show up on traceroute.  Plus their links could just be less loaded, maybe have a different priority for ICMP/UDP packets?

Your own routers behaviour can reflect in ping and traceroute.  I believe traceroute also only reflects what is happening on the outbound connection, the route back to you could be different.

eg. To my VPS

Code: [Select]
1  losubs.subs.bng1.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.17)  13.407 ms  13.210 ms  13.767 ms
 2  ae1-177.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.38)  13.271 ms  13.287 ms  13.499 ms
 3  lonap-gw2.mythic-beasts.com (5.57.80.222)  14.472 ms  13.810 ms  13.716 ms
 4  ptp-r-hex-b-10G.router-mer-b.mythic-beasts.com (93.93.133.23)  13.460 ms  14.491 ms  15.626 ms
 5  csdprojects.co.uk (176.126.247.130)  15.000 ms  13.968 ms  13.373 ms

From my VPS

Code: [Select]
1  131.spine-20G.router-mer-a.mythic-beasts.com (93.93.134.63)  0.125 ms  0.093 ms  0.090 ms
 2  ptp-r-mer-a-10G.router-sov-a.mythic-beasts.com (93.93.133.32)  0.093 ms  0.114 ms  0.114 ms
 3  linx-1.zen.net.uk (195.66.224.158)  0.410 ms  0.455 ms  0.457 ms
 4  v176.subs.bng1.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.37)  0.448 ms  0.447 ms  0.474 ms
 5   14.744 ms  14.868 ms  15.585 ms
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 25, 2020, 12:02:29 AM
That is actually interesting Alex. I thought the inbound routing would be exactly the same but mirrored as latency does not seem to vary in most cases?

I am curious where is this server located? In France or Germany?

Tracing route to 151.80.12.9 over a maximum of 30 hops

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.0.1
  2    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  vt1.cor1.lond2.ptn.zen.net.uk [51.148.72.23]
  3    11 ms    11 ms    10 ms  ae-3.pe1.ixn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.2]
  4    11 ms    11 ms    10 ms  ae-1.pe1.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.94]
  5    11 ms    10 ms    10 ms  vl-50.ae-6.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.57]
  6     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  7    15 ms    14 ms    14 ms  be103.gra-g2-nc5.fr.eu [213.251.128.64]
  8    13 ms    13 ms    13 ms  be7.gra-vac1-a75.fr.eu [213.186.32.167]
  9    13 ms    13 ms    13 ms  gra-vac1-a75-1-firewall.fr.eu [178.33.99.150]
 10    13 ms    13 ms    14 ms  gra-vac1-a75-2-shield.fr.eu [178.33.99.137]
 11    14 ms    13 ms    14 ms  gra-vac1-a75-3.fr.eu [178.33.99.149]
 12     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 13    18 ms    17 ms    17 ms  vl1248.rbx-d2-a75.fr.eu [37.187.231.252]
 14    27 ms    27 ms    27 ms  vl1251.sbg-g2-a75.fr.eu [37.187.232.29]
 15    28 ms    28 ms    29 ms  be50-7.sbg-4b-a9.fr.eu [188.165.9.76]
 16    27 ms    27 ms    28 ms  ns3030614.ip-151-80-110.eu [151.80.110.120]
 17    27 ms    27 ms    26 ms  151.80.12.9

Trace complete.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: burakkucat on February 25, 2020, 12:29:39 AM
Perhaps this will be of interest to you . . .

[bcat ~]$ whois 151.80.12.9
[Querying whois.ripe.net]
[whois.ripe.net]
% This is the RIPE Database query service.
% The objects are in RPSL format.
%
% The RIPE Database is subject to Terms and Conditions.
% See http://www.ripe.net/db/support/db-terms-conditions.pdf

% Note: this output has been filtered.
%       To receive output for a database update, use the "-B" flag.

% Information related to '151.80.12.0 - 151.80.12.63'

% No abuse contact registered for 151.80.12.0 - 151.80.12.63

inetnum:        151.80.12.0 - 151.80.12.63
netname:        OVH_78999210
descr:          OVH Static IP
country:        PL
org:            ORG-NG87-RIPE
admin-c:        OTC12-RIPE
tech-c:         OTC12-RIPE
status:         LEGACY
mnt-by:         OVH-MNT
created:        2015-03-18T15:06:20Z
last-modified:  2015-03-18T15:06:20Z
source:         RIPE

organisation:   ORG-NG87-RIPE
org-name:       Net-Speak.pl Grupa
org-type:       OTHER
address:        Sloneczna 8
address:        46-300 Olesno
address:        PL
phone:          +48.604779021
mnt-ref:        OVH-MNT
mnt-by:         OVH-MNT
created:        2015-03-18T15:06:03Z
last-modified:  2017-10-30T16:37:56Z
source:         RIPE # Filtered

role:           OVH PL Technical Contact
address:        OVH Sp. z o. o.
address:        ul. Swobodna 1
address:        54-088 Wroclaw
address:        Poland
admin-c:        OK217-RIPE
tech-c:         GM84-RIPE
nic-hdl:        OTC12-RIPE
abuse-mailbox:  abuse@ovh.net
mnt-by:         OVH-MNT
created:        2009-09-16T16:09:56Z
last-modified:  2019-08-08T07:50:01Z
source:         RIPE # Filtered

% Information related to '151.80.0.0/16AS16276'

route:          151.80.0.0/16
descr:          OVH
origin:         AS16276
mnt-by:         OVH-MNT
created:        2015-01-22T17:55:49Z
last-modified:  2015-01-22T17:55:49Z
source:         RIPE

% This query was served by the RIPE Database Query Service version 1.96 (HEREFORD)


[bcat ~]$
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on February 25, 2020, 02:52:57 AM
That is actually interesting Alex. I thought the inbound routing would be exactly the same but mirrored as latency does not seem to vary in most cases?

Traceroute relies on every packet to the same destination taking the same route, if it doesn't then it can be completely wrong due to how it works.

Quote
Traceroute sends packets with TTL values that gradually increase from packet to packet, starting with TTL value of one. Routers decrement TTL values of packets by one when routing and discard packets whose TTL value has reached zero, returning the ICMP error message ICMP Time Exceeded.

This is why you can sometimes get some weird loops where it seems to pass through the same gateway twice, as that particular packet took more hops to reach the same gateway.

For example, as I have both Plusnet and Zen WAN links load balanced, I have seen really freaky traceroutes before where it jumps between Plusnet and Zen gateways in the same trace.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: spaace on February 25, 2020, 12:04:31 PM
That is actually interesting Alex. I thought the inbound routing would be exactly the same but mirrored as latency does not seem to vary in most cases?

I am curious where is this server located? In France or Germany?

Tracing route to 151.80.12.9 over a maximum of 30 hops

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.0.1
  2    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  vt1.cor1.lond2.ptn.zen.net.uk [51.148.72.23]
  3    11 ms    11 ms    10 ms  ae-3.pe1.ixn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.2]
  4    11 ms    11 ms    10 ms  ae-1.pe1.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.94]
  5    11 ms    10 ms    10 ms  vl-50.ae-6.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.57]
  6     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  7    15 ms    14 ms    14 ms  be103.gra-g2-nc5.fr.eu [213.251.128.64]
  8    13 ms    13 ms    13 ms  be7.gra-vac1-a75.fr.eu [213.186.32.167]
  9    13 ms    13 ms    13 ms  gra-vac1-a75-1-firewall.fr.eu [178.33.99.150]
 10    13 ms    13 ms    14 ms  gra-vac1-a75-2-shield.fr.eu [178.33.99.137]
 11    14 ms    13 ms    14 ms  gra-vac1-a75-3.fr.eu [178.33.99.149]
 12     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 13    18 ms    17 ms    17 ms  vl1248.rbx-d2-a75.fr.eu [37.187.231.252]
 14    27 ms    27 ms    27 ms  vl1251.sbg-g2-a75.fr.eu [37.187.232.29]
 15    28 ms    28 ms    29 ms  be50-7.sbg-4b-a9.fr.eu [188.165.9.76]
 16    27 ms    27 ms    28 ms  ns3030614.ip-151-80-110.eu [151.80.110.120]
 17    27 ms    27 ms    26 ms  151.80.12.9

Trace complete.

it is in France, what game is you play? some games have the ability to use proxies which can affect pings quite dramatically.

for what it is worth i get the same trace as you on a completely different ISP

Tracing route to 151.80.12.9 over a maximum of 30 hops

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.1.1
  2     7 ms     7 ms     7 ms  bb01.tw140-l6.lon.gb.voicehost.co.uk [37.157.53.5]
  3     7 ms     7 ms     7 ms  te-0-1-0.cr01.tn19-f9.lon.gb.voicehost.co.uk [37.157.53.33]
  4     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  5    10 ms    11 ms    11 ms  be103.gra-g1-nc5.fr.eu [91.121.215.178]
  6    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  be5.gra-vac1-a75.fr.eu [213.186.32.165]
  7    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  gra-vac1-a75-1-firewall.fr.eu [178.33.99.150]
  8    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  gra-vac1-a75-2-shield.fr.eu [178.33.99.137]
  9    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  gra-vac1-a75-3.fr.eu [178.33.99.149]
 10     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 11    15 ms    14 ms    14 ms  vl1248.rbx-d2-a75.fr.eu [37.187.231.252]
 12    24 ms    24 ms    24 ms  vl1251.sbg-g2-a75.fr.eu [37.187.232.29]
 13    26 ms    27 ms    26 ms  be50-7.sbg-4a-a9.fr.eu [188.165.9.72]
 14    28 ms    24 ms    24 ms  ns3030614.ip-151-80-110.eu [151.80.110.120]
 15    24 ms    24 ms    24 ms  151.80.12.9
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 25, 2020, 12:34:57 PM
it is in France, what game is you play? some games have the ability to use proxies which can affect pings quite dramatically.

for what it is worth i get the same trace as you on a completely different ISP

Tracing route to 151.80.12.9 over a maximum of 30 hops

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.1.1
  2     7 ms     7 ms     7 ms  bb01.tw140-l6.lon.gb.voicehost.co.uk [37.157.53.5]
  3     7 ms     7 ms     7 ms  te-0-1-0.cr01.tn19-f9.lon.gb.voicehost.co.uk [37.157.53.33]
  4     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  5    10 ms    11 ms    11 ms  be103.gra-g1-nc5.fr.eu [91.121.215.178]
  6    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  be5.gra-vac1-a75.fr.eu [213.186.32.165]
  7    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  gra-vac1-a75-1-firewall.fr.eu [178.33.99.150]
  8    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  gra-vac1-a75-2-shield.fr.eu [178.33.99.137]
  9    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  gra-vac1-a75-3.fr.eu [178.33.99.149]
 10     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 11    15 ms    14 ms    14 ms  vl1248.rbx-d2-a75.fr.eu [37.187.231.252]
 12    24 ms    24 ms    24 ms  vl1251.sbg-g2-a75.fr.eu [37.187.232.29]
 13    26 ms    27 ms    26 ms  be50-7.sbg-4a-a9.fr.eu [188.165.9.72]
 14    28 ms    24 ms    24 ms  ns3030614.ip-151-80-110.eu [151.80.110.120]
 15    24 ms    24 ms    24 ms  151.80.12.9

It is a voice server
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Chrysalis on February 25, 2020, 12:55:32 PM
traceroute to 151.80.12.9 (151.80.12.9), 64 hops max, 48 byte packets
 1  215.53.155.90.in-addr.arpa (90.155.53.215)  7.427 ms  7.718 ms  7.125 ms
 2  k-aimless.thn.aa.net.uk (90.155.53.101)  7.435 ms  7.436 ms  7.736 ms
 3  * * *
 4  be103.gra-g2-nc5.fr.eu (213.251.128.64)  11.527 ms  12.683 ms  11.475 ms
 5  be7.gra-vac1-a75.fr.eu (213.186.32.167)  10.222 ms  10.493 ms  10.439 ms
 6  gra-vac1-a75-1-firewall.fr.eu (178.33.99.150)  10.506 ms  10.482 ms  10.461 ms
 7  gra-vac1-a75-2-shield.fr.eu (178.33.99.137)  10.522 ms  10.205 ms  10.474 ms
 8  gra-vac1-a75-3.fr.eu (178.33.99.149)  10.485 ms  10.725 ms  10.460 ms
 9  * * *
10  vl1247.rbx-g1-a75.fr.eu (37.187.231.234)  14.633 ms  14.709 ms  14.929 ms
11  vl1250.sbg-d1-a75.fr.eu (37.187.232.27)  24.228 ms  24.195 ms  24.462 ms
12  be50-5.sbg-4b-a9.fr.eu (188.165.9.74)  25.257 ms  25.433 ms  24.746 ms
13  ns3030614.ip-151-80-110.eu (151.80.110.120)  24.457 ms  24.676 ms  24.502 ms
14  151.80.12.9 (151.80.12.9)  24.242 ms  24.221 ms  24.218 ms

My server in France by comparison is 17ms, is this one in southern France?

Mine has took a jump though because it used to be just 12ms, but now the routing seems have changed and the latency is higher as a result.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on February 25, 2020, 02:14:36 PM
May I ask where are you in the country @spaace @Chrysalis ?
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Chrysalis on February 25, 2020, 02:48:45 PM
east midlands.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: spaace on February 25, 2020, 03:24:07 PM
May I ask where are you in the country @spaace @Chrysalis ?

also east midlands - south leicestershire

10  vl1247.rbx-g1-a75.fr.eu (37.187.231.234)  14.633 ms  14.709 ms  14.929 ms
11  vl1250.sbg-d1-a75.fr.eu (37.187.232.27)  24.228 ms  24.195 ms  24.462 ms

maybe the SBG in that second hop is Strasbourg which is quite far away. but we all get similar results to that particular IP on different ISP's

Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on March 03, 2020, 02:25:47 AM
*UPDATE after migration to GEA*

Latency is now terrible unless I have 16ms delay due to DLM but I guess it only is 8ms. I have no idea how they advertise themselves as a gaming ISP. Not happy at all and angry at the same time. They can't offer anything beneficial to customer expect their customer service.

Not saying the latency to London is either 18ms or 25ms? How come? It has always been the same e.g 10-11ms on fast path or 18ms interleaved. Ping to other european hosts is +6ms higher considering that my line is currently interleaved so that makes it 14ms higher in total comparing to WBMC and around 20ms higher comparing to PlusNet (I wish I was with you now). Now I can only blame myself that I left good ISP for bad and expensive one  :(

Just have a look. The last traceroute is to .DE server which shows 42ms, in fact it is 50ms in game and with PlusNet I was getting 30ms to the exactly same IP. So what has changed?

I don't want to say final word now but I am not hoping someting will change. My latency to hosts further away than Germany is above 60ms - complete joke. Used to be 25ms to .DE, now it is 40-50ms.

Note - as I said above, latency to London based host was ALWAYS 10-11ms, now it differs by 8ms? 25ms to google, still 11ms to bbc but used to be 11ms to google as well

Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [151.101.128.81]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.0.1
  2    18 ms    18 ms    18 ms  losubs.subs.bng1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.17]
  3    19 ms    19 ms    18 ms  ae1-177.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.38]
  4    25 ms    25 ms    25 ms  ip81-59.fastly-gw1.lonap.net [5.57.81.59]
  5    18 ms    18 ms    18 ms  151.101.128.81

Trace complete.

----------------------

Tracing route to dns.google [8.8.8.8]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.0.1
  2    37 ms    18 ms    18 ms  losubs.subs.bng1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.17]
  3    18 ms    18 ms    18 ms  ae1-177.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.38]
  4    26 ms    26 ms    25 ms  72.14.223.28
  5    27 ms    27 ms    27 ms  209.85.249.149
  6    26 ms    26 ms    25 ms  172.253.65.211
  7    25 ms    25 ms    25 ms  dns.google [8.8.8.8]

Trace complete.

--------------------------

Tracing route to hosted-by.hiperz.com [85.114.146.48]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.0.1
  2    36 ms    18 ms    18 ms  losubs.subs.bng1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.17]
  3    19 ms    18 ms    18 ms  ae1-177.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.38]
  4    25 ms    81 ms    67 ms  vl-50.ae-5.pe2.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.54]
  5    25 ms    29 ms    26 ms  ae-1.pe2.ixn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.97]
  6    26 ms    33 ms    26 ms  ae-14.cor1.lond2.ptn.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.27]
  7    27 ms    26 ms    31 ms  ae-15.agg1.lond2.ptn.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.28]
  8    25 ms    25 ms    26 ms  ldn-b9-link.telia.net [62.115.169.134]
  9    41 ms    41 ms    41 ms  ldn-bb3-link.telia.net [62.115.117.6]
 10    41 ms    40 ms    41 ms  prs-bb3-link.telia.net [62.115.134.92]
 11    41 ms    41 ms     *     ffm-bb1-link.telia.net [62.115.123.12]
 12    42 ms    42 ms    40 ms  ffm-b5-link.telia.net [62.115.114.89]
 13    31 ms    35 ms    32 ms  ae10-0.fra10.core-backbone.com [62.115.9.226]
 14    57 ms    38 ms    38 ms  ae1-2071.dus10.core-backbone.com [80.255.14.58]
 15    44 ms    44 ms    43 ms  po13q402-h8491.core1-dus-ix.bb.as24961.net [81.95.2.114]
 16    41 ms    42 ms    42 ms  po8.core2-dus1.bb.as24961.net [62.141.47.20]
 17    44 ms    44 ms    45 ms  eth1-1.ipcar.bb.as24961.net [62.141.47.106]
 18    42 ms    42 ms    42 ms  hosted-by.hiperz.com [85.114.146.48]

Trace complete.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: j0hn on March 03, 2020, 10:34:13 AM
They have zero control of the DLM.

It was mentioned multiple times that the DLM is reset when you switch to GEA and that brings 8ms additional delay from Interleaving.

You can't blame the ISP for what was essentially your choice.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: CarlT on March 03, 2020, 10:47:30 AM
RBX = 59100 Roubaix, Nord-Pas-de-Calais-Picardie, France
SBG = Alsace Tourisme, Grand'Rue, 67000 Strasbourg, France

Roubaix is right on the Belgian border, Strasbourg is the best part of 500 kilometres away on the German border and probably further in terms of fibre route.

I'm not aware of how OVH handle routing on their network but either way the delay makes sense, and the path probably isn't asymmetrical in this case as the two will likely only connect in London and OVH will prefer that if they can, it's just distance.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on March 03, 2020, 10:49:02 AM
They have zero control of the DLM.

It was mentioned multiple times that the DLM is reset when you switch to GEA and that brings 8ms additional delay from Interleaving.

You can't blame the ISP for what was essentially your choice.

Of course j0hn, I am not blaming them for DLM, I know it will eventually be removed in the next 48-72 hrs but after that my latency will still be higher than on WBMC unless DLM adds latency further on the hops. It was my choice but what they said was "latency won't be worse, it can only get better, because everything is router via our network".

I just don't understand how has the latency double to UK hosts even on fast path comparing to WBMC which has always been 11ms
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 03, 2020, 03:56:33 PM
Of course j0hn, I am not blaming them for DLM, I know it will eventually be removed in the next 48-72 hrs but after that my latency will still be higher than on WBMC unless DLM adds latency further on the hops. It was my choice but what they said was "latency won't be worse, it can only get better, because everything is router via our network".

I just don't understand how has the latency double to UK hosts even on fast path comparing to WBMC which has always been 11ms

I'm just surprised you went ahead seeing as it had already been suggested that latency would likely be higher on GEA with Zen.

Your latency with Plusnet seemed atypically low, but latency isn't everything.  Zen aim to have a zero contention network, which I'd think is more important.  My personal experience was that while Plusnet is lower latency than Zen, running a VPN over Plusnet I was getting far more packet loss than on Zen.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on March 03, 2020, 09:01:24 PM
I'm just surprised you went ahead seeing as it had already been suggested that latency would likely be higher on GEA with Zen.

Your latency with Plusnet seemed atypically low, but latency isn't everything.  Zen aim to have a zero contention network, which I'd think is more important.  My personal experience was that while Plusnet is lower latency than Zen, running a VPN over Plusnet I was getting far more packet loss than on Zen.

Their aim to have zero contention network isn't even close to what I was getting previously being on WBMC. After this migration I can't even stream in 480p, speed test only showing 15mbps and 120ms jitter all the time. Well congested network they have. Just terrible ISP. I am going to pay the cancellation fee and leave this ISP. Going back to PN - no issues for 12 months straight.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: g3uiss on March 03, 2020, 10:01:17 PM
Are your speeds below hand back. I thought your issues were over latency well explained in the thread, now itís bandwidth, although you know the DLM will take a few days to sort out. In my humble opinion Zen outweigh PN by a country mile and I have both
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on March 03, 2020, 10:41:12 PM
Are your speeds below hand back. I thought your issues were over latency well explained in the thread, now itís bandwidth, although you know the DLM will take a few days to sort out. In my humble opinion Zen outweigh PN by a country mile and I have both

Now it is actually both. Strange coincidence OR engineer knocked at my door today and asked me if everything is fine with my broadband and phone? Then he said he is going to check my connection in the PCP and will come back but he didn't.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: mofa2020 on March 03, 2020, 11:15:16 PM
Guess it is a ZEN's issue with GEA which makes the speed and connection quality like 120ms jutter and ping too bad, unless your attainable / sync. speed and other line stats showing a line fault like what OR engineer was asking about it is no physical issue.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on March 03, 2020, 11:57:38 PM
Guess it is a ZEN's issue with GEA which makes the speed and connection quality like 120ms jutter and ping too bad, unless your attainable / sync. speed and other line stats showing a line fault like what OR engineer was asking about it is no physical issue.

Don't really know why would he come to my house and ask about it (would he know that my line was migrated to GEA?) I didn't lose sync. It is still 40000/9995 with interleaving on after migration to GEA. I've noticed the speed and jitter issues starting to appear early evening till 10pm. No problems throughout the day and in the middle of the night. Anyway they need to resolve this asap as streaming above 480p is impossible and that is what my household usually do at evenings. I don't wanna hear complains every day such as (Why have you switched to worse ISP etc.)

I am waiting for DLM to remove delay but it might actually take longer as I needed to reboot my piece of junk (D7000 v2) due to it freezing. VR600 is on the way. I'd also try D7800 but its design is exactly the same so for sure same overheating issue. Not taking a gamble.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: mofa2020 on March 04, 2020, 10:01:12 AM
I've noticed the speed and jitter issues starting to appear early evening till 10pm. No problems throughout the day and in the middle of the night. Anyway they need to resolve this asap as streaming above 480p is impossible and that is what my household usually do at evenings.

This is an ISP issue with congestion on GEA "routing", I am outside UK but some nights I have the same exact issue where Youtube 240p would hardly work around the time it happens to you..

You said you will request a migration to WBMC again if GEA makes things worse, that would at least fix current issues waiting for DLM to remove interleave.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on March 04, 2020, 12:19:24 PM
This is an ISP issue with congestion on GEA "routing", I am outside UK but some nights I have the same exact issue where Youtube 240p would hardly work around the time it happens to you..

You said you will request a migration to WBMC again if GEA makes things worse, that would at least fix current issues waiting for DLM to remove interleave.

Zen tech support said the congestion issue could be due to pending regrade to 80/20. Funniest thing is they claim that migration to GEA has been delayed and isn't completed yet :) I don't know what they are thinking
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: mofa2020 on March 04, 2020, 07:51:04 PM
Zen tech support said the congestion issue could be due to pending regrade to 80/20.

I do not believe that the pending 80/20 actually causing the jitter, high latency or slow speed and even 15mb "which is weird to have while line sync. is 40/10" can run 1080p with no problem if and only if the ISP side is working properly if not properly 100mb sync. would do nothing,, this is really non sense.

Funniest thing is they claim that migration to GEA has been delayed and isn't completed yet :) I don't know what they are thinking

So they would tell you that you are still on WBMC if you ask them,, OMG I hate ISPs with such weird answers.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 04, 2020, 09:10:12 PM
So they would tell you that you are still on WBMC if you ask them,, OMG I hate ISPs with such weird answers.

While I agree its annoying, we know from experience that often this is Openreach being slow to report back to the ISP that changes have been made.

As for GEA being worse, I'd think jitter and throttling is a damn good argument for Zen to migrate back, even if they might nor normally do so.  Of course this can't happen until the order for GEA is confirmed as complete.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on March 05, 2020, 01:47:19 PM
VR600 v2 has arrived. Connected straight away and so far rock solid. Latency increased by 1-2ms, not a big deal so I'll stick with it for a while I guess.

Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [151.101.128.81]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  ARCHER_VR600 [192.168.1.1]
  2    12 ms    11 ms    11 ms  losubs.subs.bng2.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.21]
  3    12 ms    12 ms    11 ms  ae1-183.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.86.82]
  4    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  ip81-59.fastly-gw1.lonap.net [5.57.81.59]
  5    12 ms    11 ms    11 ms  151.101.128.81

Trace complete.

Some line stats - Zen replied that regrade to 80/20 will be done in the next 24hrs

Upstream   Downstream
Current Rate (kbps)   9995   39970
Max Rate (kbps)   25493   99236
SNR Margin (dB)   18.2   23.2
Line Attenuation (dB)   12.5   7.7
Errors (pkts)   0   0
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: CarlT on March 05, 2020, 03:23:40 PM
That's not bad given where you are.

traceroute to bbc.co.uk (151.101.64.81), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
 1  192.168.0.1 (192.168.0.1)  0.275 ms * *
 2  172.16.13.185 (172.16.13.185)  1.703 ms  1.559 ms  1.493 ms
 3  * * *
 4  31.55.187.180 (31.55.187.180)  7.083 ms  7.507 ms  7.447 ms
 5  core1-hu0-2-0-1.southbank.ukcore.bt.net (195.99.127.14)  7.624 ms  7.672 ms  7.706 ms
 6  peer8-et-3-0-2.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net (109.159.252.182)  7.925 ms  8.006 ms  8.089 ms
 7  * * *
 8  151.101.64.81 (151.101.64.81)  6.973 ms  6.993 ms  6.993 ms
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on March 05, 2020, 06:32:32 PM
That's not bad given where you are.

traceroute to bbc.co.uk (151.101.64.81), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
 1  192.168.0.1 (192.168.0.1)  0.275 ms * *
 2  172.16.13.185 (172.16.13.185)  1.703 ms  1.559 ms  1.493 ms
 3  * * *
 4  31.55.187.180 (31.55.187.180)  7.083 ms  7.507 ms  7.447 ms
 5  core1-hu0-2-0-1.southbank.ukcore.bt.net (195.99.127.14)  7.624 ms  7.672 ms  7.706 ms
 6  peer8-et-3-0-2.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net (109.159.252.182)  7.925 ms  8.006 ms  8.089 ms
 7  * * *
 8  151.101.64.81 (151.101.64.81)  6.973 ms  6.993 ms  6.993 ms

This is great and with BT wow. Apparently this sort of latency is something I'll never be able to see on my eyes :(
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on March 08, 2020, 09:54:22 PM
With my pure curiosity I decided to compare my Zen FTTC connection with 11ms base latency to my friends 9ms base latency Enta.net full fibre (500/500) and he lives in the same city. If you look at the trace routes, despite very similar base latency 2ms difference and EXACTLY THE SAME routing my latency is 8-9ms higher to the same host? There are some other few example but I am going to show you one of them. I can't understand why is that. Can anyone explain?

My Zen's trace route:

Tracing route to luxhosting.nl [37.221.209.105]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  ARCHER_VR600 [192.168.1.1]
  2    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  losubs.subs.bng1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.17]
  3    11 ms    11 ms    12 ms  ae1-176.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.36]
  4    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  linx-224.retn.net [195.66.224.193]
  5    40 ms    40 ms    41 ms  ae0-8.RT.BIX.BUD.HU.retn.net [87.245.232.159]
  6    42 ms    42 ms    42 ms  retn.deninet.hu [217.113.61.208]
  7    43 ms    42 ms    43 ms  te8-4-413.c6509-core-4.atw.hu [88.151.96.140]
  8    42 ms    43 ms    45 ms  88.151.96.212
  9    42 ms    42 ms    42 ms  88.151.96.218
 10    42 ms    42 ms    43 ms  37.221.209.105

Trace complete.
-------------------------------
My friend's enta.net:

Tracing route to luxhosting.nl [37.221.209.105]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms   10.10.0.1
  2    9 ms    9 ms    10 ms  10.100.33.149
  3    9 ms    9 ms    9 ms  bundle-ether101.telehouse-east4.core.enta.net [188.39.127.149]
  4    9 ms    9 ms    9 ms  linx-224.retn.net [195.66.224.193]
  5    38 ms    38 ms    38 ms  ae0-8.RT.BIX.BUD.HU.retn.net [87.245.232.159]
  6    34 ms    35ms    34ms  retn.deninet.hu [217.113.61.208]
  7    35 ms    34 ms    34 ms  te8-4-413.c6509-core-4.atw.hu [88.151.96.140]
  8    35 ms    34 ms    35 ms  88.151.96.212
  9    34 ms    35 ms    34 ms  88.151.96.218
 10    34 ms    34 ms    34 ms  37.221.209.105

Trace complete.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: CarlT on March 08, 2020, 10:51:14 PM
This is great and with BT wow. Apparently this sort of latency is something I'll never be able to see on my eyes :(

FTTP so you will see it at some point soon.  :)
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: CarlT on March 08, 2020, 10:53:36 PM
Your extra latency on the trace appears to be due to the return path. However Zen are advertising their network the route back to you is adding some latency.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on March 08, 2020, 11:00:59 PM
Your extra latency on the trace appears to be due to the return path. However Zen are advertising their network the route back to you is adding some latency.

Any way to trace route back to me?
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 09, 2020, 04:30:51 AM
Any way to trace route back to me?

No.  As we discussed before traceroute is an educated guess only.

Each of those hosts may take a completely different route back and that can only be determined by tracing FROM each host, which is still an educated guess anyway.

Think yourself lucky:
Code: [Select]
1  losubs.subs.bng1.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.17)  14.783 ms  13.432 ms  22.349 ms
 2  ae1-176.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.36)  22.116 ms  13.165 ms  13.414 ms
 3  linx-224.retn.net (195.66.224.193)  23.184 ms  13.827 ms  20.131 ms
 4  ae0-8.RT.BIX.BUD.HU.retn.net (87.245.232.159)  45.712 ms  49.576 ms  48.469 ms
 5  retn.deninet.hu (217.113.61.208)  44.957 ms  45.987 ms  52.089 ms
 6  te8-4-413.c6509-core-4.atw.hu (88.151.96.140)  52.357 ms  45.908 ms  48.537 ms
 7  88.151.96.212 (88.151.96.212)  55.510 ms  49.690 ms  49.195 ms
 8  88.151.96.218 (88.151.96.218)  52.381 ms  45.818 ms  50.659 ms
 9  37.221.209.105 (37.221.209.105)  50.122 ms  53.362 ms  52.602 ms

Code: [Select]
1  254.core.plus.net (195.166.130.254)  17.270 ms  19.298 ms  17.767 ms
 2  84.93.253.115 (84.93.253.115)  17.958 ms  17.632 ms  18.047 ms
 3  195.99.125.138 (195.99.125.138)  18.175 ms  18.274 ms  18.189 ms
 4  peer3-et-7-0-5.redbus.ukcore.bt.net (62.172.103.254)  18.182 ms  18.298 ms
    peer7-et-4-0-5.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net (194.72.16.130)  17.951 ms
 5  * 109.159.253.21 (109.159.253.21)  18.218 ms  18.409 ms
 6  ae0-8.RT.BIX.BUD.HU.retn.net (87.245.232.159)  45.123 ms  45.990 ms  46.661 ms
 7  retn.deninet.hu (217.113.61.208)  50.291 ms  51.410 ms  50.075 ms
 8  te8-4-413.c6509-core-4.atw.hu (88.151.96.140)  52.067 ms  51.476 ms  51.689 ms
 9  88.151.96.212 (88.151.96.212)  49.354 ms  50.115 ms  50.535 ms
10  88.151.96.218 (88.151.96.218)  50.015 ms  49.197 ms  49.407 ms
11  37.221.209.105 (37.221.209.105)  50.052 ms  50.072 ms  50.265 ms
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: N0STIE on March 12, 2020, 02:14:51 AM
No.  As we discussed before traceroute is an educated guess only.

Each of those hosts may take a completely different route back and that can only be determined by tracing FROM each host, which is still an educated guess anyway.

Think yourself lucky:
Code: [Select]
1  losubs.subs.bng1.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.17)  14.783 ms  13.432 ms  22.349 ms
 2  ae1-176.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.36)  22.116 ms  13.165 ms  13.414 ms
 3  linx-224.retn.net (195.66.224.193)  23.184 ms  13.827 ms  20.131 ms
 4  ae0-8.RT.BIX.BUD.HU.retn.net (87.245.232.159)  45.712 ms  49.576 ms  48.469 ms
 5  retn.deninet.hu (217.113.61.208)  44.957 ms  45.987 ms  52.089 ms
 6  te8-4-413.c6509-core-4.atw.hu (88.151.96.140)  52.357 ms  45.908 ms  48.537 ms
 7  88.151.96.212 (88.151.96.212)  55.510 ms  49.690 ms  49.195 ms
 8  88.151.96.218 (88.151.96.218)  52.381 ms  45.818 ms  50.659 ms
 9  37.221.209.105 (37.221.209.105)  50.122 ms  53.362 ms  52.602 ms

Code: [Select]
1  254.core.plus.net (195.166.130.254)  17.270 ms  19.298 ms  17.767 ms
 2  84.93.253.115 (84.93.253.115)  17.958 ms  17.632 ms  18.047 ms
 3  195.99.125.138 (195.99.125.138)  18.175 ms  18.274 ms  18.189 ms
 4  peer3-et-7-0-5.redbus.ukcore.bt.net (62.172.103.254)  18.182 ms  18.298 ms
    peer7-et-4-0-5.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net (194.72.16.130)  17.951 ms
 5  * 109.159.253.21 (109.159.253.21)  18.218 ms  18.409 ms
 6  ae0-8.RT.BIX.BUD.HU.retn.net (87.245.232.159)  45.123 ms  45.990 ms  46.661 ms
 7  retn.deninet.hu (217.113.61.208)  50.291 ms  51.410 ms  50.075 ms
 8  te8-4-413.c6509-core-4.atw.hu (88.151.96.140)  52.067 ms  51.476 ms  51.689 ms
 9  88.151.96.212 (88.151.96.212)  49.354 ms  50.115 ms  50.535 ms
10  88.151.96.218 (88.151.96.218)  50.015 ms  49.197 ms  49.407 ms
11  37.221.209.105 (37.221.209.105)  50.052 ms  50.072 ms  50.265 ms

Now, I think I should :)

Goal achieved when plugged in Netgear D7800 with Lantiq chipset. I am having another issue though.. single threaded download is about half of my speed (30-50mbps on various speedtests).

Pinging bbc.co.uk [151.101.64.81] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 151.101.64.81: bytes=32 time=10ms TTL=60
Reply from 151.101.64.81: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=60
Reply from 151.101.64.81: bytes=32 time=10ms TTL=60
Reply from 151.101.64.81: bytes=32 time=9ms TTL=60

Ping statistics for 151.101.64.81:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 9ms, Maximum = 10ms, Average = 10ms
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 15, 2020, 08:48:36 AM
A rare sessions esablished via Manchester instead of London.
Code: [Select]
1  lo1.subs.bng1.wh-man.zen.net.uk (62.3.89.162)  7.561 ms  5.989 ms  5.661 ms
 2  ae5-161.cr2.wh-man.zen.net.uk (62.3.86.13)  17.315 ms  6.183 ms  6.036 ms
 3  ae3-0.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.58)  15.477 ms  13.315 ms  13.408 ms
 4  ip81-60.fastly-gw2.lonap.net (5.57.81.60)  13.175 ms  15.331 ms  14.262 ms
 5  151.101.192.81 (151.101.192.81)  13.354 ms  15.177 ms  13.202 ms
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Starman on March 25, 2020, 04:49:36 PM
Moved from PN to Zen this week myself too - if your interested
Code: [Select]
Tracing route to 151.101.192.81 over a maximum of 30 hops

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  gateway [192.168.1.254]
  2     9 ms     9 ms     9 ms  vt1.cor2.lond1.ptn.zen.net.uk [51.148.72.22]
  3    10 ms     8 ms     9 ms  ae-4.pe1.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.0]
  4     9 ms     8 ms     9 ms  vl-50.ae-6.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.57]
  5     8 ms     9 ms     8 ms  195.66.227.114
  6     9 ms     8 ms     9 ms  151.101.192.81

Trace complete.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: underzone on March 25, 2020, 05:48:03 PM
I saw the TBB graph that you posted on another thread Starman

(https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/quality/share/thumb/90edde214ab006682c35c72df1507d72fe1eec91.png)

Is that the actual day of switchover?
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 25, 2020, 06:06:11 PM
I saw the TBB graph that you posted on another thread Starman

(https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/quality/share/thumb/90edde214ab006682c35c72df1507d72fe1eec91.png)

Is that the actual day of switchover?

Unlikely as it wouldn't be seamless like that as you'd have to change the IP address on TBB.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: nfxcr3w on March 25, 2020, 06:44:21 PM
That's not bad given where you are.

traceroute to bbc.co.uk (151.101.64.81), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
 1  192.168.0.1 (192.168.0.1)  0.275 ms * *
 2  172.16.13.185 (172.16.13.185)  1.703 ms  1.559 ms  1.493 ms
 3  * * *
 4  31.55.187.180 (31.55.187.180)  7.083 ms  7.507 ms  7.447 ms
 5  core1-hu0-2-0-1.southbank.ukcore.bt.net (195.99.127.14)  7.624 ms  7.672 ms  7.706 ms
 6  peer8-et-3-0-2.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net (109.159.252.182)  7.925 ms  8.006 ms  8.089 ms
 7  * * *
 8  151.101.64.81 (151.101.64.81)  6.973 ms  6.993 ms  6.993 ms

Similar to mine  :)

Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [151.101.0.81]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms [192.168.1.1]
  2     5 ms     4 ms     5 ms  172.16.10.235
  3     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  4     6 ms     6 ms     5 ms  31.55.185.180
  5     5 ms     7 ms     5 ms  core2-hu0-16-0-7.colindale.ukcore.bt.net [213.121.192.42]
  6     6 ms     6 ms     6 ms  peer8-et-0-1-4.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [109.159.252.106]
  7     6 ms     6 ms     6 ms  195.99.126.83
  8     6 ms     6 ms     6 ms  151.101.0.81
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Starman on March 25, 2020, 07:16:00 PM
Is that the actual day of switchover?

Sadly no - My switch over was Monday morning and I only remembered to update TBB graph yesterday evening you can see the re-sync this morning which is slowing bumping my speed back to where it was prior with G.INP and 3db STNR
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: j0hn on March 25, 2020, 10:39:31 PM
Unlikely as it wouldn't be seamless like that as you'd have to change the IP address on TBB.

TBB BQM's now work with hostnames not just IP's.

DYN DNS means with my dynamic IP my BQM always updates instantly.
Title: Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 25, 2020, 11:09:35 PM
TBB BQM's now work with hostnames not just IP's.

DYN DNS means with my dynamic IP my BQM always updates instantly.

True, but if you're physically switching from one ISP to another there is going to be a gap where you are swapping the login/router over, plus whats the odds of people already using a hostname if they had a static IP?