Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: Weaver on February 10, 2020, 12:05:10 AM
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This morning I was watching the approaching lightning storm at blitzortung.org (http://https:\\blitzortung.org) getting closer. There were various strikes in Ireland, in South Wales and then up here in the Small Isles there was a strike in the sea just north of Eilean Chanaidh which is just a few miles to the west of Skye. I should have pulled the modems at that point but, stupidly, I didn’t and before I knew it there was a strike right on the Heasta road a few hundred metres north of the house.
Janet pulled all the modems and the Firebrick went into failover mode, switching to internet access over 3G using its 3G USB ‘dongle’ NIC. This promptly racked up a bill of £13.68 for AA/AQL/Three 3G SIM network charges. AA said that 0.682Gb had been transferred and I’m presuming that that means bits, not bytes, because of the lower case “b” even though such ”bits“ usage seems really unusual. I make that 85.25 MB (bytes). This huge amount was lessened by the fact that I later connected my iPad to Janet’s iPhone, which has an EE SIM and which was sharing out its EE 4G network connection over 802.11 (a sharing-over-802.11 facility which Apple calls ‘hotspot’). Janet’s EE account has a lot of unused ‘data’ allowance which I too could take advantage of on my iPad by using Janet’s ‘hotspot’ service.
When I later dared to plug the modems back in, it then looked as if all four lines (apparently) were down. A bit of diagnosis, then trying a new known good modem in line 1, and things still didn’t work, and it turned out the lightning had completely destroyed the 8-port ZyXEL VLAN/MUX switch. The copper DSL lines themselves though seem to have all survived without damage.
Janet then plugged in the spare/backup VLAN MUX switch that we had just had delivered a week or so ago from Andrews and Arnold, and ta-DA! Two DSL lines came back up.
Talk about timely, so lucky that for no particular reason I had decided to be prepared and recognise that the only piece of hardware for which I did not have on-site swap-out kit was the small VLAN/MUX switch. I even have a second firebrick, an FB2500, but I realised a few weeks ago that the small switch was the weak link, because I had no spares. And the spare was delivered just in time for the killer lightning strike.
The next job this afternoon was to configure two new spare modems from the reserve stock to go into those slots. I spent what felt like an hour faffing around checking the contents of config files because I hadn’t left them annotated properly. I was in pain and over-tired and was sitting in a chair in the office helping Janet with all the plugging and unplugging. I just ended up too tired, couldn’t think straight and in too much pain so I actually couldn’t configure the modems. I realised I would have to do a pin-in-hole Johnson/Burakkucat reset first, in order to gain control because the new modems I had obtained from eBay were not talking to me, so a full reset was required before I could even start configuring them. I was just too tired so decided to abandon the work of modem-configuring until the next day.
So in the end I plugged two good, already-configured DLink DSL-320B-Z1 modems into slots #3 and #4 and then all four lines were good for the night.
Tomorrow I will have to attack a load of modems, at least two, poking them and configuring them; not just two, I should do the backlog of modems I have bought but have never configured.
The small switch was not showing per-port LEDs above the ethernet sockets but the "Power" LED was lit, so it seems certain that that MUX switch is indeed really stuffed. Could anyone tell me how a switch decides to light one of these port LEDs, what criterion it uses?
The replacement small switch shows lit LEDs above the ethernet ports that have something plugged into them, I don’t know if that means something at the near end, far end or if both ends have to be ‘good’ in some sense.
- Lesson to be learned - lightning can appear to ‘jump’ >20 miles with no warning. You see a strike on the lightning maps that is some distance away and you think ‘oh the danger zone is over there’ which is completely false; the thundercloud could already be right over the top of you, and when you’re looking at the lightning strike maps, nothing is going to tell you where the undischarged dangerous clouds ( ie those about to discharge ) are at the present moment. I have never seen a situation like this before.
- Minimum radius. I will have to be much much more paranoid in future. If there is a strike anywhere on the lightning map within say 70 miles radius then it’s time to unplug the modems.
- I really need to have modems ready configured, standing by, and that means ready to go, not needing configuration first. When I get new modems for use in reserve stock, I should be resetting them and configuring them straight away. It also means that newly arriving modems then get inspected and can get tested to some very basic level.
- And I also need to document everything, there’s now a program that I’ve written for the iPad that writes slot-n adapted versions of a master template modem config XML config file, but it isn’t at all obvious to the reader how to declare/define a new / updated master template config that is used by the slot-n copy/adaptation program. Firstly I could not just see where the master config is set, where it’s definition lives and secondly I couldn’t see which file is the basis of this because there was no documentation. Grrrr. :-(
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So what path do you think led to the switches demise? It blew up two modems as well as the switch, so the surge passed through the ethernet transformers of both modem and switch?
Do you have DECT phones blow up as well?
Have you thought have some sort of remote controlled relay on the phone lines to either allow you to manually isolate everything, or even automate it with your lightning detector?
What mechanisms do the exchanges employ to not fry gear every time there is a storm?
Sorry for all the questions, just curious as all electrical storms have done to my connection is cause errors and retrains.
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:'(
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So what path do you think led to the switches demise?
I don’t know I’m afraid. Anyone have any suggestions? It was inky a few hundred metres away and right in the phone line from the lightning strike map.
It blew up two modems as well as the switch, so the surge passed through the ethernet transformers of both modem and switch?
Correct.
Do you have DECT phones blow up as well?
Don’t have any any more. For some reason couldn’t work out how to mate them to the the Siemens VOIP box and was too tired to slog through a long session with AA support; AA support that kit because they supplied it to us.
Have you thought have some sort of remote controlled relay on the phone lines to either allow you to manually isolate everything, or even automate it with your lightning detector?
An interesting idea. I’m not any good at electronic hardware, and too ill to have the concentration nor can I sit upright. I’m afraid the disconnect thing wouldn’t work because you don’t get any warning at all on some occasions, Sunday being the perfect example. Sometimes there’s a strike right on you and no others nearby beforehand. Thus afternoon there were three strikes on in Broadford itself and two in the sea in Broadford bay, and zero warning. Pulled out the modems too late today but luckily no damage done.
What mechanisms do the exchanges employ to not fry gear every time there is a storm?
Our experienced engineers will be able to answer that. I’m presuming gas discharge tubes.
Sorry for all the questions, just curious as all electrical storms have done to my connection is cause errors and retrains.
Our problem is the extremely long line 7300m which leaves us very vulnerable and exceptionally vulnerable to GPR/EPR, plus there’s the exceptionally wild weather at certain times of the year.
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More strikes all the time this afternoon (Monday). Modems unplugged but too late.
Today I have just bought 8 more modems from an eBay seller. Bought 4 last month. I’ve found a supplier who delivers pristine boxed ZyXEL VMG1312 B10A units that look certainly as if they’re brand new never used. They still have the plastic film round the unit, plus a cd and leaflet, and all the usual stuff you get in a box when something is brand new.
I’ve also ordered yet another MUX switch from AA.
The only defence I could think of is either an RF or optical bridge x 4 between each of the modems and the MUX, or between MUX and firebrick. Janet would go mad if I wanted her to put in 4 x 2 opto-isolators or ethernet fibre media converters. And the modems would still be unprotected.
I could claim on my insurance for the equipment damage, but there’s a substantial excess and they’d perhaps put our premiums up. Ultimately insurance is the only practical solution as I don’t have access to gas discharge tubes.
I’m too tired to do modem-poking today. I’ve found the instructions Johnson supplied on how to reset modems that are unresponsive - very much appreciated. I wonder if there’s a way of making it a bit easier and quicker to do the whole thing of resetting each modem and then configuring it with alien 192.168.1.199 etc IP settings on my iPad?
Looking at freemaptools and measuring distance, I see that the lightning ‘jumped’ from just north of Eilean Chanaidh to Heasta here a distance of 24 miles.
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More strikes all the time this afternoon (Monday). Modems unplugged but too late.
Today I have just bought 8 more modems from an eBay seller. Bought 4 last month. I’ve found a supplier who delivers pristine boxed ZyXEL VMG1312 B10A units that look certainly as if they’re brand new never used. They still have the plastic film round the unit, plus a cd and leaflet, and all the usual stuff you get in a box when something is brand new.
I’ve also ordered yet another MUX switch from AA.
The only defence I could think of is either an RF or optical bridge x 4 between each of the modems and the MUX, or between MUX and firebrick. Janet would go mad if I wanted her to put in 4 x 2 opto-isolators or ethernet fibre media converters. And the modems would still be unprotected.
I could claim on my insurance for the equipment damage, but there’s a substantial excess and they’d perhaps put our premiums up. Ultimately insurance is the only practical solution as I don’t have access to gas discharge tubes.
I’m too tired to do modem-poking today. I’ve found the instructions Johnson supplied on how to reset modems that are unresponsive - very much appreciated. I wonder if there’s a way of making it a bit easier and quicker to do the whole thing of resetting each modem and then configuring it with alien 192.168.1.199 etc IP settings on my iPad?
Looking at freemaptools and measuring distance, I see that the lightning ‘jumped’ from just north of Eilean Chanaidh to Heasta here a distance of 24 miles.
Thought you had no problems :-) Have you not tried some surge protection, you can get them for telephone lines, there should be something in the master socket (gas discharge) but I expect those are fried already.
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Hi Weaver
What about something like this https://mikrotik.com/product/sxt_lte6_kit, it has the modem and external antenna inside so you get the maximum signal straight to the modem. Less concerns regarding lightening as no connection to your phone line, you can simplify your kit completely and should end up with much faster speeds. I suspect it will cost you considerably less overall as you could do away with 3 phone lines.
Regards
Phil
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I’ve tried cheap DSL surge protectors but they wrecked the signal. Thanks very much for that Mikrotik url - will investigate. Could combine that with L2TP to AA, although dealing with the UTP issues would be a challenge though.
Sorry, by ‘problems’ I meant transient dsl copper line problems aside from lightning damage. Mea culpa. My problem yesterday was my poor health, stamina. Anyone who gets a lightning strike will have to do some maintenance afterwards.
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. . . there should be something in the master socket (gas discharge) but I expect those are fried already.
Unfortunately not. :no: They were removed from the NTE5 specification a number of years ago. :(
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Unfortunately not. :no: They were removed from the NTE5 specification a number of years ago. :(
Didn't know that. Maybe they were proving ineffective then?
Regards
Phil
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Didn't know that. Maybe they were proving ineffective then?
Regards
Phil
My understanding is... that they only shunted across the pair, making them completely pointless when confronted with effects of lighting, which is likely to be appear as common mode spikes. They also presented a small capacitance across the line which might, in theory at least, have detrimental effect on DSL.
Similar three pole devices exist which might help a great deal with lightning but the centre pole must be earthed if they are to do any good. I think there was a time, early half of last century, when an earthed lightning protection device was included on post office lines. I would imagine that modern equivalents of such devices will play a part in protection of exchanges, but the problem at consumer end would be absence of an earth conductor.
Useful discussion here...
https://www.britishtelephones.com/lightng.htm
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I agree with 7LM. There’s just nowhere for all that 30kA to go; it’s useless without getting it into earth, surely?
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Maybe they were proving ineffective then?
And were also shown to be detrimental to an xDSL service.
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And were also shown to be detrimental to an xDSL service.
I’m curious, have you seen any reference source that quantifies the detriment?
If done ‘properly’ with a 3 pole GDT device and earth, which is effectively two devices in series, the effective shunt capacitance would be halved, and so the detriment halved. But I’m not sure if capacitance is all there is to consider.
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I’m curious, have you seen any reference source that quantifies the detriment?
Unfortunately not.
If done ‘properly’ with a 3 pole GDT device and earth, which is effectively two devices in series, the effective shunt capacitance would be halved, and so the detriment halved. But I’m not sure if capacitance is all there is to consider.
Yes, but as we know, the devices were two pole and thus just clamped the pair together.
The initial "modern day" (i.e. post 1980) plug & socket system, before the genesis of the NTE5, was with the various line-jacks and those constructed as a "master" socket were fitted with a metal oxide varistor (MOV) for over-voltage protection. With age, they had a tendency to shunt the pair with non-linear frequency dependent effects.
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The initial "modern day" (i.e. post 1980) plug & socket system, before the genesis of the NTE5, was with the various line-jacks and those constructed as a "master" socket were fitted with a metal oxide varistor (MOV) for over-voltage protection. With age, they had a tendency to shunt the pair with non-linear frequency dependent effects.
I was thinking of GDTs, not MOVs.
MOVs are sacrificial by nature and do degenerate with every surge that they arrest. But these devices are more commonly found in mains extension leads and the likes, where some have an (unreliable) indicator to indicate the MOV has had its day. I was not aware MOV had been used in master sockets, but I’d agree they would have been a very bad choice of device, as they would degrade with time and wouldn’t offer any real protection against lightning.
Re historical situation, stress again the link I posted (and Kitz posted too, in the earlier thread)?
https://www.britishtelephones.com/lightng.htm (my colour highlights)
Early this (20th) century the protection fitted to telephones was discontinued and the protection was fitted externally to the telephone. At both ends of the line fuses and mica protectors were fitted. This involved an earthed protector unit with fuses on the customer premises and in the exchange, fuses, protectors and heat coils. The heat coils were to guard against low voltage contact (250 volts).
Ps: above link does seem to assert that original NTE5A ‘protection’ was GDT, not MOV. That would seem more sensible, though still pointless with regards to lightning.
Edit: added ‘ps’.
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I agree that the original NTE5 was fitted with a two pole GDT. Perform a forum search and you will find more than one post where I mentioned activating a GDT (with 500V DC from an Ohmmeter 18C) and described the discharge as a delicate violet glow.*
It was before the NTE5, when the LJUs were current devices, that MOVs were used.
I can well remember the early 20th century protection devices at the subscriber's premises (http://www.telephonesuk.co.uk/images/small/protector_03_small1.jpg). Two fuses, one per wire of the pair, two shellac coated carbon blocks between each wire of the pair and the terminal connected to earth.
* Here's four "mentions" --
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,12515.msg237129.html#msg237129
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,12660.msg242251.html#msg242251
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,13644.msg257311.html#msg257311
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,22990.msg390348.html#msg390348
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Weaver are you saying your equipment took 2 lighting strike's in the space of a week? that is extraordinary.
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I agree that the original NTE5 was fitted with a two pole GDT. Perform a forum search and you will find more than one post where I mentioned activating a GDT (with 500V DC from an Ohmmeter 18C) and described the discharge as a delicate violet glow.*
That make sense as I’d expect a MOV to be 100% incompatible with DSL owing to a pretty massive capacitance, even before any degradation.
There’s nothing obvious to me about a GDT that would impact DSL, though I may be missing something. Even if it’s a phenomenon related to ageing I’d still be interested to understand the process, I didn’t think they degraded like MOVs. I will consult Mr Google and report back if I find anything of interest. :)
There are other technologies too of course. I’m thinking about deploying TVS diodes in a small hobby project in which I’m currently indulging... a gadget containing static-sensitive electronics, that will hang on my garage wall with exposed contacts. Not that I’d expect my home brewed protection to necessarily save anything, it’s a specialised area, but nothing lost by trying. :D
Weaver are you saying your equipment took 2 lighting strike's in the space of a week? that is extraordinary.
Worth pointing out that these would not be direct strikes, as a direct strike would probably have done much vastly damage. And in the absence of full building lightning protection, possibly set the house alight. More limited damage, like Weaver’s, can occur some distance from the actual strike and I believe can be managed more easily.
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I thought GDTs were supposed to be MORE sacrificial than MOVs? Maybe its just a certain type but I've seen "one shot" mentioned a lot, basically they die after the first surge whereas MOVs degrade gradually (not great in mains use as they can fail dead short).
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I thought GDTs were supposed to be MORE sacrificial than MOVs?
That’s not my understanding, I thought GDT returned to normal after the arc has subsided, provided the duration of the arc is short.
I think there is a challenge with using GDT on AC power lines, whereby an arc is started by a surge and then rather than subsiding, the arc can be sustained by the normal AC voltage, quickly causing burn out and failure. That wouldn’t apply to phone lines though, would it?
But whilst I believe myself to have some understanding, I’m trying to avoid claiming to be an expert in all of this, or asserting myself as a source of fact. My posts are usually peppered with qualifications like “my understanding is”, “might stand corrected”, “I don’t think”, etc... :)
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@Chrys - don’t understand. Recap: There was one lightning strike very near me in Heasta; the other three next day were a few miles north of me.
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That’s not my understanding, I thought GDT returned to normal after the arc has subsided, provided the duration of the arc is short.
I think there is a challenge with using GDT on AC power lines, whereby an arc is started by a surge and then rather than subsiding, the arc can be sustained by the normal AC voltage, quickly causing burn out and failure. That wouldn’t apply to phone lines though, would it?
But whilst I believe myself to have some understanding, I’m trying to avoid claiming to be an expert in all of this, or asserting myself as a source of fact. My posts are usually peppered with qualifications like “my understanding is”, “might stand corrected”, “I don’t think”, etc... :)
Looked at a data sheet and its kinda as expected, depends on the surge current. eg https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/datasheets/gas_discharge_tubes/littelfuse_gdt_cg_cg2_datasheet.pdf.pdf
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Interesting reading from ITU-T, who ought to know a thing or two about phone lines, telling us how lightning protection should be done...
”Principles of protection against overvoltages and overcurrents”
https://www.itu.int/rec/dologin_pub.asp?lang=e&id=T-REC-K.11-200901-I!!PDF-E&type=items
And a scarier document with a broader scope, “Protection of Customer Premises...”
https://www.itu.int/rec/dologin_pub.asp?lang=e&id=T-REC-K.66-201911-I!!PDF-E&type=items
Other K series rec’s also of interest, check out the references section in above. Such as K.12, which deals specifically with GDTs, browse itu.int to find.
But whilst I’ve no intention to read these publications cover to cover it’s clear to me that this is a non trivial topic. Interesting to discuss but not something we should be thinking of actually implementing, with DIY hardware designed by forum contributors on the back of an envelope. :)
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Weaver what I mean most people would perhaps have equipment affected by a strike once in their entire lifetime, so for you to get two in a week is really unlucky.
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Weaver what I mean most people would perhaps have equipment affected by a strike once in their entire lifetime, so for you to get two in a week is really unlucky.
I hope so, I've already had mine.
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Yesterday and today line 4 very sickly, down for 5 hours, today ‘dripping blood’ (ie AA CQM red colouring indicating PPP LCP ping echo loss). AA has booked BTOR engineer to come out tomorrow afternoon. I have also asked AA to look at the other lines, especially line 3 whose modem was also damaged.
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You could ask the engineer to consider the ITU-T document(s) I posted earlier. A recurring theme is that protection should be a balance between cost of protection, consequences of damage and cost of repairs, based on factors including probability and past experience of lightning damage. Your recent and past experience might be a fairly compelling qualifying factor, imho.
Of course, tHe ITU-T documents are only recommendations. It is up to regional operators, such as BT, to decide whether and how to incorporate these recommendations into their own standards. They can ignore them if they like, on aspects like this.
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@7LM thanks for those docs, I somehow missed that post earlier- was very out of it much of today, exhaustion for no good reason
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I need to point out that this kind of lightning damage is just the general experience out here. My neighbours had an electric shock inside the house and one or two houses (memory fades) near here have caught fire. Each year we narrowly avoid or fail to avoid equipment damage.
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The saying goes that lightning never strikes the same place twice.
But I don’t buy that. The chances of a strike in close enough proximity are so remote that, if it happens, I feel that it's worth asking whether there was a reason.... geographical, climatic, elevation, whatever. And whatever the reason, it may still exist next time there’s a storm... :'(
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You get a lot of lightning storms in your area Weaver?
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The saying goes that lightning never strikes the same place twice.
But I don’t buy that. The chances of a strike in close enough proximity are so remote that, if it happens, I feel that it's worth asking whether there was a reason.... geographical, climatic, elevation, whatever. And whatever the reason, it may still exist next time there’s a storm... :'(
Its nowhere near as predictable as people think, there are literally buildings much taller than my house across the road but it his half way down our chimney, not even the top.
Exactly what environmental factor caused it to take such a strange path to ground is anyones guess. But its not unusual, you see photos where it hit half way down a tree, it hitting the highest point is not remotely a given.
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We get lightning storms a few times a year.
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We get lightning storms a few times a year.
Judging by the number of times you mention it on the forum, my gut feeling is that you seem to get storms maybe two or three times as often as I do. But there’s other factors too, that I’d assume would affect the probability of damage from distant strikes in the same general area. For example my phone line is underground all the way from the cabinet, is yours?
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Phone line is lying on the rocks/earth for a large portion of the route - maybe 50%. The first mile nearest to the exchange is underground. That is all high ground too.
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I’s speculate that the length of the line makes a difference too.
Partly because a longer line makes a bigger target.
But also because, if we assume that there is protection at the exchange (or FTTC cabinet), then stray voltages are grounded at that point. When unwanted currents flow, the longer the wire from the grounded point, the higher the voltage at the ungrounded end can be.
I’d imagine capacitive and inductive effects of line length are more significant that the simple dc resistance of the wire but same principle would apply... the further you are from the point of protection, the less you’d benefit from it.
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I agree. And the long length of the line increases the likelihood and magnitude of any GPR/EPR and from that comes damage from ‘slow cooking’, ie modest currents rather than huge ones, but enough to cook network interfaces for example. I would say this is more likely because one end of the line can more easily be right under the cloud, inside the footprint, while the far end is well outside the footprint, thus seeing the full potential difference between inside and outside.
BTOR engineer arrived here a short while ago; in the house testing line 4.
The line has been up and down like a yo-yo; so bad that I should have disconnected it from the bonded set in fact, if I’d had any sense, as it was probably giving a ‘negative contribution’ on the whole, with all the packet loss seen at times poisoning the reliability of the whole combined pipe.
The verdict is that the short BT-to-RJ11 cable that I was using had gone bad, presumably due to the lightning cooking. I had swapped out modems but not that cable. So it means that this is my fault. :( :-[
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How annoying. :(
We once had a house alarm that stopped working every time there was the slightest scent of lightning in the air. Clearly just inadequate protection on the vulnerable inputs. It was under a maintenance contract and each time it failed and we called out the engineer he would simply reset and reconfigured it, which did the trick. He’d then explain that the contract didn’t cover lightning damage and attempt to charge us a callout fee. >:(
I solved the problem by looking over his shoulder as he entered the alarm’s engineer maintenance code, which the maintenance company liked to think they could keep secret. Armed with that code I was able to reset it myself after storms and, better still, was able to terminate the maintenance contract. :graduate:
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It looks as if possibly modem 4 has been cooked. It has been showing dripping blood all night. Email from AA arrived, warning me about it, such excellent service from David. How many times has your ISP contacted you with a warning ? :-)
Modem 4 was new 9 days ago. It’s a DLink DSL-320B-Z1. As instructed by AA, have swapped modems 3 and 4 to see if the badness moves to line 3. If I can find another DLink modem I’ll put that into service instead.
Might finally get new modems programmed today. Could not secure help of my beloved last week; it’s been 9 days and I still haven’t put the new ZYXEL VMG1312-B10A modems in yet. ??? :-[ :(
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It looks as if possibly modem 4 has been cooked.
:o :'(
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Today there have been no problems on line 3 or 4. So what was going on is a mystery, or modem 3 (the old modem 4) which is under suspicion has not yet gone wrong or else it is line 4 that was bad and it is deciding to play nicely for a bit.
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I have finally after ten days got round to programming two new modems and the missus hates me now after recruiting her to do the pokey thing while I operated the iPad. Modems 3 and 4 replaced with two new B10As from eBay, they certainly look very new anyway.
I still have a mountain of units on order from eBay but have not turned up yet, but perhaps the weather chaos down in England has slowed things up. Janet chased eBay seller today for me. Those will need flashing and configuring at some point.
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Hello Weaver
I found this UPS which have a RJ11 in/out surge protection I believe it could be useful with weather in your area also it will help in case of power issues, it may or may not work with ADSL service I do not know but thought you might be interested in something like that.
https://www.effekta.com/catalogue/#page=20
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Than you very much for that link ! I’ll try anything. I’ve noticed this on other UPS models and then forgotten all about it. I need four units to protect all the lines so that’s a nuisance. I would be very interested to do a test to see if they can avoid detrimental effect on signal quality and link performance - something that is hard-fought-for, and very precious, the links being so slow anyway.
I think other kitizens [?] have been sceptical about the effectiveness of devices without a strong path to earth, and so in order to be effective and reliable, a system would have to have a dump-current-to-earth design, being connected straight into a path to the house earth. I’m not sure how well these things work in the case of slow cooking, which is a worrisome problem case, ie with a modest current long-term and without a very high voltage.
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I sent BT an email, to the email address which my fellow kitizen provided me earlier. And amazingly I got a response asking me for my details, so that good. I should avoid the temptation of being totally unrealistically optimistic here; I warned them not to misunderstand and that I was not a BT telephone or BT ISP customer but only an indirect end user via AA as their customer / CP, and then via their use of BTW and BTOR. Gave them all my details and said if it would be useful I would give AA permission to talk to BT about me.
I just emailed AA to ask them if they would talk to OR about me; I realise that it’s a big favour to ask and they might well not wish to get involved so I’ll understand if they don’t wish to get involved and still continue to love them deeply anyway.
There’s the number of callouts for OR; my downtime and continuing vigilance on alert for ten days; my equipment loss and risks to the whole village; my 4G bills; and the cost to AA in terms of huge amounts of support time.