Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Hardware => Topic started by: Alex Atkin UK on January 03, 2020, 01:11:59 AM
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[Moderator note: This post, and those that follow on, have been split from CarlT's "Openreach Huawei 4 port ONT module (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,24200.0.html)" topic.]
On a related note, do they still fit the battery backup, at least if you request the engineer to do so?
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Hi
I had FTTP installed just before Christmas and no sign of a backup battery being offered. I got the smaller Huawei installed and I don't think that even has the monitoring backup socket to connect to the BBU. So the engineer would need the older style ONT plus the backup units to provide that.
It didn't worry me as the power socket for the ONT I was easily able to feed from a UPS, which also keeps the router, VoIP phone and Wi-Fi powered in a power cut so the network remains up as normal.
I can understand why they have dropped supplying them as standard, as for most people they are of little use as they will not have any other bits of kit on a UPS, so if the power goes they have no Internet anyway, and few people are using the in-built telephone port.
Regards
Phil
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That's annoying, as I have a UPS for my NAS but it doesn't last very long. A DC UPS should run for much much longer due to not conversion losses.
I also have a cheap 12V UPS from Amazon which doesn't seem to hold a charge. So I was really hoping for something actually purpose designed for the task.
To be fair its not essential (as the router isn't even currently on one and the core switch is on the other that wont last long), but it would be nice to have.
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I am going on a campaign of increasing UPS deployment and runtime. I am using Li-ion 12V UPSs (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Power-Inspired-Router-Uninterruptible-Supply/dp/B0187PWCLO) instead of the supplied 12V D.C power bricks that came with my WAPs, so now each WAP is independently UPSed and without the inefficiency of having to generate 240V AC mains only to then immediately throw it away down-converting to 12V DC
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Hi
I am going on a campaign of increasing UPS deployment and runtime. I am using Li-ion 12V UPSs (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Power-Inspired-Router-Uninterruptible-Supply/dp/B0187PWCLO) instead of the supplied 12V D.C power bricks that came with my WAPs, so now each WAP is independently UPSed and without the inefficiency if having to generate 240V AC mains only to then immediately throw it away down-converting to 12V DC
You still get similar loses just in the opposite direction, as 4.5 volts from the lithium battery needs to be boosted up to 12 volts. Efficiency isn't the deciding factor on a UPS but reliability, safety and run-time, it matters little if it is 95% efficient or 60% efficient for the odd time it's needed.
Also I wouldn't trust those plugged in all the time, lithium batteries can explode and catch fire, especially ones in devices that probably don't have proper CE approval, also the lithium cell will have lost around 50% of its capacity after a couple of years if not sooner even if never used just being sat in the adaptor constantly warm and constantly being topped up, which is something lithium cells are not designed for and hate, and they are non-replaceable, so just throw the whole thing away after a couple of years! Also you have no idea on the quality of the switch mode power supply in that adaptor, I doubt it is anywhere near as efficient or safe as the original one supplied with the equipment, and I suspect your equipment is more at risk of damage from the mains than it would be on the supplied adaptor.
There is a reason that lead acid batteries are used in standby equipment like UPS, they are safe and reliable.
Don't forget a proper UPS will protect the equipment against dangerous surges and over voltages by disconnecting the equipment from the mains immediately the mains goes 'out of spec', that will not be happening in those adaptors.
If thought about and planned it isn't too difficult to get a single UPS to power all the necessary equipment. Mine powers my main computer, a VoIP phone, router, switch, ONT. I've had power cuts whilst working away and only known about it because I've heard the UPS fire itself up and start beeping at me.
Regards
Phil
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Don't forget a proper UPS will protect the equipment against dangerous surges and over voltages by disconnecting the equipment from the mains immediately the mains goes 'out of spec', that will not be happening in those adaptors.
If thought about and planned it isn't too difficult to get a single UPS to power all the necessary equipment. Mine powers my main computer, a VoIP phone, router, switch, ONT. I've had power cuts whilst working away and only known about it because I've heard the UPS fire itself up and start beeping at me.
Regards
Phil
You say that but the one I'm using now doesn't seem to know what "spec" means as when it kicks in, it tends to output 215V and I've seen it kick in at voltages still in-spec, so it actually caused it to be out-of-spec on those occasions. :no:
Reading reviews, it seems all the low-end SOHO kit is garbage and I simply don't have anywhere to physically locate a bigger unit, even if the cost wasn't prohibitive.
I was originally going to have one for the core switch, NAS, my desktop (adds too much of a load sadly when gaming) and one on the modems/router. I gave up on the latter after reading reviews that suggested anything I had space for sucked.
I have the Li-Ion 12V unit on some 12V LED strips I have that light the porch and hallway as the importance there IS run time, but as I expected Li-Ion just isnt suitable. Its not maintaining a charge at all.
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Hi
You say that but the one I'm using now doesn't seem to know what "spec" means as when it kicks in, it tends to output 215V and I've seen it kick in at voltages still in-spec, so it actually caused it to be out-of-spec on those occasions.
It depends of course on the quality of the UPS, I've stuck with APC.
Now don't be to hard on the one you have :) The lower voltage reading is probably just down to how your device/multi meter is measuring the output voltage, and what you are seeing are errors caused by measuring a square wave output as an AC sign wave. Multi-meters can't really give you a true AC value with the type of output from a running UPS https://www.se.com/ww/en/faqs/FA157483/
A good UPS will be reacting to things quicker that you can measure and see with most test equipment, for example a sudden dip in voltage lasting just a 50th of a second will trip it over, where it will stay for a second or so until everything appears stable.
Regards
Phil
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Hi
It depends of course on the quality of the UPS, I've stuck with APC.
Now don't be to hard on the one you have :) The lower voltage reading is probably just down to how your device/multi meter is measuring the output voltage, and what you are seeing are errors caused by measuring a square wave output as an AC sign wave. Multi-meters can't really give you a true AC value with the type of output from a running UPS https://www.se.com/ww/en/faqs/FA157483/
A good UPS will be reacting to things quicker that you can measure and see with most test equipment, for example a sudden dip in voltage lasting just a 50th of a second will trip it over, where it will stay for a second or so until everything appears stable.
Regards
Phil
Its supposedly a pure sine wave model and the voltage is the readout on the UPS itself as well as reported over the USB port.
I avoided square wave as I had a bad experience with them before, plus they seem to be noisier (makes sense) and potentially harder on the PSUs plugged into them.
It is curious as I saw it kicking in on voltages that seemed in-spec, I wonder what it detected to cause that. Since I added UPS monitoring to my home page, it doesn't seem to have kicked in at all, typical.
I was looking at APC but saw a lot of negative reviews about their affordable models.
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Hi
If that is the true voltage then it is still in specification more or less. The UK rules are 230 volt but it can be lower by up to 6%, which is 216 volts minimum. Power suppliers for IT equipment really wouldn't care about the difference, often being able to run on anything from 50/60Hz at 100 volts upwards.
I've used the more consumer types of APC UPS for many years and never had any issues, it's a stepped approximation sine wave they output which is perfectly fine for IT equipment.
A good UPS isn't just looking at voltage, it will be looking at noise and changes to the frequency, and kicking in as soon as it detects a potential problem, most problems would come and go quicker than could be seen or noticed, and wouldn't have needed the UPS to have kicked in anyway, it's just detecting anything that might indicate something worse might be about to happen so it reacts sooner rather than later.
Regards
Phil
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Its technically out of spec though as you point out, 216.2 is the minimum and it was reporting 215. Considering the whole point of a UPS is to keep the voltage within spec, the fact its not going to cause any issues is somewhat irrelevant.
I think its out of spec at the upper end too, pretty sure I've seen it NOT kick in when the mains is at at 255v and it should kick in at 253.
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Hi
Well it all depends on how accurately it is measuring it's own voltage, plus it doesn't need to comply with the specifications anyway as it isn't feeding the national grid as it is just a back up power supply for your own IT equipment :D In a power cut it is going to keep everything running just the same. Also these aren't mains conditioning units, they are a UPS, so I wouldn't expect these types of UPS to switch exactly at the regulatory upper and lower ranges unless it says it is suppose to.
If you are concerned about it working correctly the answer would be to buy a better one of course or maybe seek a warranty replacement perhaps?
Note that in the UK our mains voltage is usually 240 - 250 volts (I get 247 volts here), it is only a 'nominal' 230 volt as that is what the EU wants to standardise at and use elsewhere. The EU maximum/minimum regulatory range has been set in such a way it means our higher voltage complies, without the UK having to make any changes. A UPS wouldn't want to switch at 253 volts as that could only be 3 volts above normal in some places in the UK and makes it way too sensitive, they are only designed to switch when voltages might damage equipment, not when it falls outside of a regulatory range by a few volts.
What is your UPS? Anyway it sounds fine and if it does it job okay then what more do we need.
Regards
Phil
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Curious as to what the voltage serving my property is now.
I have a couple of paperclips - can anyone let me know how much 230 volts hurts versus 250?
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Apols, previous post that repeated existing stuff deleted. :blush:
My own mains supply is currently sitting at 236V.
At times of peak demand, such as Christmas morning when nearly everybody has the ovens on, it often dips to less than 220V. That’s below the legal limit when it was nominally 240V, and I do find my own oven then struggles and becomes my excuse for lunch being late.
If you want to keep an eye on it, easiest way is to get a plug in power meter/adapter. I got mine from Maplin so can’t provide a link, but I think there are plenty about.
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I'm not too worried being a city boy. Should be pretty solid. I'll know the voltage from the small UPS I'll put in place to protect a few key components :)
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Curious as to what the voltage serving my property is now.
I have a couple of paperclips - can anyone let me know how much 230 volts hurts versus 250?
You first
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I'm sure on both my UPS's I can adjust the voltages for when it switches, my home one is an APC Smart-UPS 1500, can't remember what the work is, but it's not APC.
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Just checked the settings on my APC back-UPS CS350. The high voltage intervention can be set between 256V and 278V, the low can be set between 196V and 160V. There's also a setting for noise sensitivity which can be set as high/medium/low.
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That's bizarre, I was under the impression anything under 216 is considered a brown-out and there are no guarantees all hardware can handle it, thus the point of having a UPS.
A brownout happens when the voltage drops below the usual mains supply level.
Brownouts are damaging for IT loads – in many ways they can be more disruptive than a total blackout, when the power simply goes off. During a brownout, devices continue to receive power but at a reduced level. This can cause some devices to malfunction.
Uninterruptible power supplies can handle the reduction in voltage due to its input voltage window. When the voltage drops outside this window, the UPS’s batteries kick-in and take over without any disturbance to the load.
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Hi
That's bizarre, I was under the impression anything under 216 is considered a brown-out and there are no guarantees all hardware can handle it, thus the point of having a UPS.
There is no hard and fast rule that dictates what a brownout voltage is. Essentially a brownout just means a temporary dip in the voltage from what is the norm. Check your IT power supplies, I expect most if not all will be switch mode power supplies and work internationally, so 100-240 volts rating. If you want to argue anything under 216 volt is a brownout then that means all IT equipment running in countries with 110-120 volts (which have exactly the same power supplies just different pins) are all running in a constant brownout situation and so must be damaged very soon and fail, but clearly that isn't the case.
Most UPS's are designed purposely not to transfer over to battery power until somewhat lower or higher than the max and mins of the supply companies voltage specification, simply because it isn't necessary to maintain the AC voltage within that range with IT equipment (they can run down to at least 100 volts and still work fine), and this saves wear and tear on the battery and the circuitry by switching only when necessary.
You can get online UPS's that will essentially regenerate the AC voltage 24/7 and the output voltage never varies, however these are more expensive and less efficient, and overkill for consumer use.
What you need to understand is UPS's are designed to maintain the voltage in a range required by the attached equipment to continue to operate, not to maintain the grids AC voltage specification. A UPS isn't feeding back into the national grid, it's feeding IT equipment and is designed for that purpose.
Also worth remembering that IT equipment doesn't work on 240 volts, it is usually 12 volts or considerably less, so receive far higher volts than they need, there is a huge buffer between what IT equipment needs to run and what they get fed, which is why AC adaptors can be rated for use as low as 100 volts, and in reality they will be designed to run with some tolerances on those ratings, so will work quite a bit below 100 volts even. A brown out down to say 80 volts wouldn't cause a problem for most IT equipment. We've probably all experienced a blip in the power supply where the lights have dimmed for a split second yet things like TVs and computers have carried on working without a hiccup, it is because they can run on lower voltages.
If you have a power cut does your IT equipment attached to your UPS continue working okay?
Regards
Phil
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Hi
There is no hard and fast rule that dictates what a brownout voltage is. Essentially a brownout just means a temporary dip in the voltage from what is the norm. Check your IT power supplies, I expect most if not all will be switch mode power supplies and work internationally, so 100-240 volts rating. If you want to argue anything under 216 volt is a brownout then that means all IT equipment running in countries with 110-120 volts (which have exactly the same power supplies just different pins) are all running in a constant brownout situation and so must be damaged very soon and fail, but clearly that isn't the case.
Most UPS's are designed purposely not to transfer over to battery power until somewhat lower or higher than the max and mins of the supply companies voltage specification, simply because it isn't necessary to maintain the AC voltage within that range with IT equipment (they can run down to at least 100 volts and still work fine), and this saves wear and tear on the battery and the circuitry by switching only when necessary.
You can get online UPS's that will essentially regenerate the AC voltage 24/7 and the output voltage never varies, however these are more expensive and less efficient, and overkill for consumer use.
What you need to understand is UPS's are designed to maintain the voltage in a range required by the attached equipment to continue to operate, not to maintain the grids AC voltage specification. A UPS isn't feeding back into the national grid, it's feeding IT equipment and is designed for that purpose.
Also worth remembering that IT equipment doesn't work on 240 volts, it is usually 12 volts or considerably less, so receive far higher volts than they need, there is a huge buffer between what IT equipment needs to run and what they get fed, which is why AC adaptors can be rated for use as low as 100 volts, and in reality they will be designed to run with some tolerances on those ratings, so will work quite a bit below 100 volts even. A brown out down to say 80 volts wouldn't cause a problem for most IT equipment. We've probably all experienced a blip in the power supply where the lights have dimmed for a split second yet things like TVs and computers have carried on working without a hiccup, it is because they can run on lower voltages.
If you have a power cut does your IT equipment attached to your UPS continue working okay?
Regards
Phil
The argument isn't if the equipment will work fine, because yes I'm well aware it should do due to international PSUs.
The point is that the only guideline you have for what voltage range the equipment is designed to run at IS the grid voltage range for the country the UPS is sold in. So logically it should be configured to stay within that range to be 100% sure all connected equipment is within spec.
Its rare to have power cuts around here so I haven't given it an extensive test, but I have switched it off at the socket a few times to prove it works. The battery already seems to be a bit p00 though, drops to about half a charge the second its under load. :(
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Hi
Sounds like it isn't a very good UPS anyway then, maybe a replacement should be on your priority list.
Regards
Phil
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Maybe, but if it gives me a few minutes for the PC to shut down, its probably good enough. I just got more paranoid after upgrading the server to 30TiB of space, didn't fancy all those drives dying at the same time at some point due to an avoidable glitch in the power.
Ironically, I'm probably more likely to accidentally hit the hair-trigger power button on the front of the UPS than have an actual power cut. ::)
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A few years back, following restoration of power after a network fault, I noticed a few hours later it wasn’t quite fixed... low voltage, about 160-180V iirc.
I noticed it because various appliances were unhappy. My microwave oven, whilst fully responsive and lighting up, rotating the plates, and making all the usual beeps, failed to induce any heat whatsoever in its contents. The fluorescent lights in the garage failed to start up, just flickering endlessly, failing to catch. My IT equipment on the other hand was entirely happy, though I did disconnect my broadband for fear of associated bursts of interference, and DLM intervention.
Interestingly when I reported it, the power company were unaware but treated it with same if not more urgency as a full power cut. I think the problem is that low voltage can become a safety hazard too as some appliances end up working harder to function at the low voltage, then overheat. Fridge compressors for example may find themselves run continuously whereas at full voltage they get frequent rest breaks.
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I had one of those experiences a few years back. It was cold, and my gas central heating tried to start up. There was enough power to open the gas valve, but not enough to fire the spark ignition, so unburnt gas poured out of the flue. I phoned UK Power Networks to explain the danger, and urged them to turn the power off completely until the fault was fixed, but they weren't interested and just repeated that I should turn my heating off (which I'd already done of course).
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Crikey, that's bad. I mean how many people are going to notice that happened?
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Crikey, that's bad. I mean how many people are going to notice that happened?
How many would even understand the concept. In my case I did make an effort to spread the word to a few neighbours that voltage was dangerously low. But the responses were along the lines of “Ours is ok, look, we’ve the TV on and it’s working fine.” :-\
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There was enough power to open the gas valve, but not enough to fire the spark ignition, so unburnt gas poured out of the flue.
That sounds like a faulty boiler. It should have detected that the gas had not lit and shut the gas off again after a short time (certainly less than a minute).
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It possibly was. It was a very old boiler.
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We’ve got the opposite problem - our mains goes as high as 263V for hours at a time occasionally. Normally it’s around the 250V level.
We used to get through incandescent and halogen bulbs like they were going out of fashion before we swapped to LEDs. Cheaper PSUs tend to die early too.
Have reported it to UKPN and whilst they agreed it wasn’t right, they didn’t seem to want to do much about it!
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We’ve got the opposite problem - our mains goes as high as 263V for hours at a time occasionally. Normally it’s around the 250V level.
We used to get through incandescent and halogen bulbs like they were going out of fashion before we swapped to LEDs. Cheaper PSUs tend to die early too.
Have reported it to UKPN and whilst they agreed it wasn’t right, they didn’t seem to want to do much about it!
No experience of UKPN. I wonder if you just encountering an out-sourced call centre who's script does not extend to your enquiry?
I’d be inclined to keep a record of each conversation, and to tell them you are doing so. Once you have a reasonable amount of evidence (two or three calls) you can invoke the organisation’s formal complaints process, which means it will get processed by somebody higher up the food chain within that company. Chances are that person will, perhaps after installing a 24/7 monitor, back you up and maybe even make a reasonable offer of compensation for damage caused.
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We’ve got the opposite problem - our mains goes as high as 263V for hours at a time occasionally. Normally it’s around the 250V level.
We used to get through incandescent and halogen bulbs like they were going out of fashion before we swapped to LEDs. Cheaper PSUs tend to die early too.
Have reported it to UKPN and whilst they agreed it wasn’t right, they didn’t seem to want to do much about it!
I switched to LED largely because the compact fluorescents were burning out after 2-6 months. What's annoying as they don't seem to be designed for the EU spec at all, I noticed they were labeled 220-240v, so my area being consistently above that was over-stressing the PSUs.
I had a limited source as I insist on daylight in my room as I have enough fatigue as it is without my room lulling me to sleep with warm white. Now I'm exclusively LIFX bulbs in my room so can pick and choose at will. A few of those died but were replaced under warranty and touch-wood have been good since.
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It is dangerous to make any assumptions about sanity or adequacy of EU rules and regulations.
Even so I’d dare to assume that, to qualify for a CE mark, whilst the label might refer to nominal voltage ranges, the bulbs would need to operate as far above or below the tolerance of nominal supply for all markets in which they are sold, which of course extends significantly above 240V in UK, and significantly below 220V in Europe.
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I assumed that too, but as it was literally frying the capacitors due to excess heat, it seems not.
Its a known thing that compact fluorescent PSUs dramatically increase their heat output as the input voltage gets higher, they aren't designed (I'm not even sure they can be in the space available) for the same wide voltage range as LED drivers are.
It kinda makes sense when you think about the size of the PSUs for full sized florescent tubes. Clearly compromises are made for the compact ones.