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Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: Alex Atkin UK on December 12, 2019, 08:53:11 PM

Title: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on December 12, 2019, 08:53:11 PM
I'm confused, one minute you've renewed with Plusnet, next minute you've ordered Virgin Media and now you're on g.FAST with some ISP we've never heard of before?
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: CarlT on December 15, 2019, 01:16:19 PM
You're going to be so bored when you get FTTP and have no line statistics to look at.

As far as the rest goes a recipe for disaster. I don't get a relatively light user's fixation with bandwidth beyond vanity / ego.
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: adslmax on December 15, 2019, 01:58:07 PM
You're going to be so bored when you get FTTP and have no line statistics to look at.

As far as the rest goes a recipe for disaster. I don't get a relatively light user's fixation with bandwidth beyond vanity / ego.

I am not worry about no line statistics for future FTTP because FTTP is always on and no DLM. But, how did you know that FTTP will come to my area soon? I thought it will FTTC/G.fast for a very long time now until FTTP around ten years time!
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: adslmax on December 15, 2019, 02:10:03 PM
Quote from: Exascale Electronic
We've had a busy year investing in our national network. Bringing online both Wolverhampton and Telford, providing businesses and homes with affordable Full fibre Gigabit Capable broadband!

What's more Ofcom have awarded Exascale Electronic Code Powers enabling us to further our progress and investment in Telford to bring full fibre Gigabit Broadband to the masses across the district in 2020.

Coverage Areas (Phase 1)

    Hoop Mill, Hadley, Telford (TF1 5TB)
    Kinley Drive, Hadley, Telford (TF1 5SY)
    Britton Lock, Hadley, Telford (TF1 5SX)
    Oxmoor Avenue, Hadley, Telford (TF1 5SS)
    Wittingham Close, Hadley, Telford, (TF1 5TF)
    Patchett Drive, Hadley, Telford (TF1 5SG)
    Oakworth Close, Hadley, Telford (TF1 5DP, TF1 5DR)
    Trenchlock 1, Hadley, Telford (TF1 5SU)
    Trenchlock 2, Hadley, Telford (TF1 5SW)
    Trenchlock 3, Hadley, Telford (TF1 5ST)

Areas to be deployed in the near future (Phase 2)

    The Nettlefolds, Hadley, Telford, (TF1 5PF)
    The Nettlefolds, Hadley, Telford, (TF1 5PG)
    Castle Street, Hadley, Telford (TF1 6RB)
    Castle Lane, Hadley, Telford (TF1 6RD)
    Cricketers Drive, Hadley, Telford (TF1 6SY)
    Sorbus Avenue, Hadley, Telford (TF1 5TL)
    Pyrus Court, Hadley, Telford (TF1 5TJ)
    Blockley Road, Hadley, Telford (TF1 5TG)
    Tilia Green, Hadley, Telford (TF1 5TP)
    Buxus Road, Hadley, Telford (TF1 5TN)
    Caldera Road, Hadley, Telford (TF1 5LT)
    Viburnum Way, Hadley, Telford (TF1 5TH)
    Hortonwood 50, Telford, TF1 7AA
    Hortonwood 30, Telford, TF1 7AB
    Hortonwood 60, Telford, TF1 7AD
    Hortonwood 50, Telford, TF1 7AE
    Hortonwood 10, Telford, TF1 7ES
    Hortonwood 30, Telford, TF1 7ET
    Hortonwood 32, Telford, TF1 7EU
    Hortonwood 33, Telford, TF1 7EX
    Hortonwood 40, Telford, TF1 7EY
    Hortonwood 45, Telford, TF1 7FA
    Hortonwood 50, Telford, TF1 7FG
    Hortonwood 35, Telford, TF1 7FR
    Telford, TF1 7FS
    Hortonwood 50, Telford, TF1 7FT
    Telford, TF1 7GA
    Hortonwood 66, Telford, TF1 7GB
    Hortonwood 60, Telford, TF1 7GL
    Hortonwood 1, Telford, TF1 7GN
    Hortonwood 7, Telford, TF1 7GP
    Hortonwood 8, Telford, TF1 7GR
    Hortonwood 31, Telford, TF1 7GS
    Hortonwood 37, Telford, TF1 7GT
    Hortonwood 67, Telford, TF1 7GU
    Hortonwood 2, Telford, TF1 7GW
    Hortonwood 30, Telford, TF1 7LJ
    Hortonwood Industrial Estate, Queensway, Telford, TF1 7LL
    Hortonwood 37, Telford, TF1 7XT
    Hortonwood 2, Telford, TF1 7XW
    Hortonwood 2, Telford, TF1 7XX
    Horton Park Industrial Estate, Hortonwood 7, Telford, TF1 7XY
    Horton Court, Hortonwood 50, Telford, TF1 7XZ
    Hortonwood 30, Telford, TF1 7YB
    Hortonwood 30, Telford, TF1 7YE
    Hortonwood 32, Telford, TF1 7YL
    Hortonwood 32, Telford, TF1 7YN
    Hortonwood 30, Telford, TF1 7YP
    Hortonwood 32, Telford, TF1 7YR
    Hortonwood 33, Telford, TF1 7YT
    Hortonwood 40, Telford, TF1 7YU
    Hortonwood 35, Telford, TF1 7YW
    Hortonwood 7, Telford, TF1 7YX
    Hortonwood 31, Telford, TF1 7YZ

[Moderator edited to wrap the above quotation with [quote][/quote] tags.]

[Moderator note. See: https://www.exascale.co.uk/solutions/networks/full-fibre-broadband/]
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: meritez on December 17, 2019, 08:18:27 AM
You're going to be so bored when you get FTTP and have no line statistics to look at.

As far as the rest goes a recipe for disaster. I don't get a relatively light user's fixation with bandwidth beyond vanity / ego.

This, anything over 40/10 seems a waste unless you are a business or gamer, or heavy online user.
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: dee.jay on December 17, 2019, 08:24:36 AM
This, anything over 40/10 seems a waste unless you are a business or gamer, or heavy online user.

I don't think 40 is a waste. With the number of people streaming these days, 40 is soon going to become "not enough" for most families/houses with multiple users.
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: j0hn on December 17, 2019, 09:42:47 AM
This, anything over 40/10 seems a waste unless you are a business or gamer, or heavy online user.

Highly disagree.

40/10 gives about 36Mb/s throughput. A 4k stream uses up to 25Mb/s.

I was syncing at 42/7 until last week and it was very inadequate for my needs. I'm no heavy user, gamer or business.
Just 2 adults and a child.
I've gone with 100Mb on Virgin as the OpenReach network wasn't meeting our needs.

Max definitely didn't need above 80/20.
He could probably have downgraded to 40/10.

Huge generalisation to say anything above 40/10 is a waste and was the same type of stuff being spouted  when FTTC 1st came out.
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: dee.jay on December 17, 2019, 11:39:15 AM
Highly disagree.

40/10 gives about 36Mb/s throughput. A 4k stream uses up to 25Mb/s.

I was syncing at 42/7 until last week and it was very inadequate for my needs. I'm no heavy user, gamer or business.
Just 2 adults and a child.
I've gone with 100Mb on Virgin as the OpenReach network wasn't meeting our needs.

Max definitely didn't need above 80/20.
He could probably have downgraded to 40/10.

Huge generalisation to say anything above 40/10 is a waste and was the same type of stuff being spouted  when FTTC 1st came out.

Bang on.
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: parkdale on December 17, 2019, 03:06:18 PM
I used to get fairly bad buffering on John lewis 40/10 service, so I carefully read all the T/C's and found they were "Managing the throughput" to 150k on streaming.... ???
So the only way to fix it was going to 80/20, no more buffering!
But since then, the goal posts have moved and now 40/10 completely unrestricted  :fingers:
A couple of weeks ago I had one leg dis on the line therefore only getting 13Mb down but still able to watch Netflix in UHD  :o so I thought I would check the bit rate, but it was the same as I normally get!
 :) :) :)
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on December 17, 2019, 08:57:36 PM
Highly disagree.

40/10 gives about 36Mb/s throughput. A 4k stream uses up to 25Mb/s.

I was syncing at 42/7 until last week and it was very inadequate for my needs. I'm no heavy user, gamer or business.
Just 2 adults and a child.
I've gone with 100Mb on Virgin as the OpenReach network wasn't meeting our needs.

Max definitely didn't need above 80/20.
He could probably have downgraded to 40/10.

Huge generalisation to say anything above 40/10 is a waste and was the same type of stuff being spouted  when FTTC 1st came out.

I'm seeing bursts of 35Mbit watching Expanse on Amazon 4K HDR.  Granted, it would average out as lower more frequent bursts if my connection was slower, but it does decrease the chance of stalling/buffering if you have much faster than you need, especially if other people in the house are using the connection at the same time.
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on January 20, 2020, 02:17:42 PM
This, anything over 40/10 seems a waste unless you are a business or gamer, or heavy online user.

I was hitting peaks of 42Mbit watching BBC iPlayer in 4K last night.
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: adslmax on January 20, 2020, 02:35:17 PM
I was hitting peaks of 42Mbit watching BBC iPlayer in 4K last night.

No fibre for 40/10 will get 42Mbit, impossible. The max speed on fibre 40/10 are 38Mbit
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on January 20, 2020, 02:37:14 PM
No fibre for 40/10 will get 42Mbit, impossible. The max speed on fibre 40/10 are 38Mbit

That was my point, I was replying to "nobody needs more than 40Mbit".
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: gt94sss2 on January 20, 2020, 06:56:47 PM

Nobody needs to watch  BBC iPlayer in 4K ?  :P :fingers: :lol:

 ;D
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on January 20, 2020, 11:21:02 PM
Nobody needs more than 640K RAM.
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: dee.jay on January 21, 2020, 12:40:12 PM
Heh, I have 4 machines each with 32GB RAM here...
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on January 21, 2020, 02:25:24 PM
I upgraded my desktop to 32GB while also moving from 2400Mhz RAM to 3200Mhz, it actually made a huge improvement in my frame rates in games.  Even with NVME, if you are going to be fast traveling in open world games, having a ton of RAM is hugely beneficial.

The main reason I went so big though was I have a tendency to leave tabs open (I will look at this later) and months would pass, I'd end up with thousands open and inevitably run out of RAM.

Although driver issues coming out of standby has partly cured that anyway as I have to reboot somewhat regularly lately as the sound card keeps going missing. Firefox doesn't actually load everything in a resumed tab until you view it, so uses far less RAM than just coming out of standby where it will keep it in RAM indefinitely.

I think people with gaming PCs are going to have a nasty shock coming in the next few years, once games start needing a a good NVME SSD to work at all, thanks to next-gen consoles making them mandatory.  Sooner or later, developers are going to want to make the most of that.

Oops, we seem to have gone a bit off topic.  :angel:
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on January 21, 2020, 06:46:34 PM
I try not to judge considering my ramblings on my fibre first thread.  :angel: :lol:

That's what I love about this forum, nobody sitting on the fence ready to pounce because you went off-topic or didn't post exactly what they had in mind.
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: dee.jay on January 21, 2020, 07:14:47 PM
It does happen sometimes, but I think it's more in the case where there is an actual decent conversation going on and the split threads within the thread are muddying it. This is actually one of a very small handful of forums I even frequent anymore. Social media has mostly destroyed forums - I used to post in many, so it is good to see a few still going.
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on January 21, 2020, 07:31:33 PM
I hadn't been here in ages, its not exactly a busy forum and there wasn't really anything earth shattering to talk about until Openreach announced Fibre First for my area.

But I love its still around, it still seems to be the most comprehensive collection of information about UK broadband out there.

I did spend a lot of time away from forums, but a lot of people are even losing interest in Facebook.  So much migration over to Discord which seems a backwards step, it just looks like glorified IRC to me.  :-\
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: dee.jay on January 21, 2020, 09:46:37 PM
Oh lord I destroyed my Facebook account 3 years ago and never looked back
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: Chrysalis on January 25, 2020, 09:33:15 PM
I upgraded my desktop to 32GB while also moving from 2400Mhz RAM to 3200Mhz, it actually made a huge improvement in my frame rates in games.  Even with NVME, if you are going to be fast traveling in open world games, having a ton of RAM is hugely beneficial.

The main reason I went so big though was I have a tendency to leave tabs open (I will look at this later) and months would pass, I'd end up with thousands open and inevitably run out of RAM.

Although driver issues coming out of standby has partly cured that anyway as I have to reboot somewhat regularly lately as the sound card keeps going missing. Firefox doesn't actually load everything in a resumed tab until you view it, so uses far less RAM than just coming out of standby where it will keep it in RAM indefinitely.

I think people with gaming PCs are going to have a nasty shock coming in the next few years, once games start needing a a good NVME SSD to work at all, thanks to next-gen consoles making them mandatory.  Sooner or later, developers are going to want to make the most of that.

Oops, we seem to have gone a bit off topic.  :angel:

I have been in a fair few 32gig ram discussions with people.

The big gaming pc reviewer type people, still push the idea 16 gig is all you ever need, and 95% of people argue that as well.

But I can only go by my own experience, the first problem I had was I had to keep closing chrome when playing games, 16 gig didnt cut it, and I felt that was constraining me so the PC got upgraded.  The second issue is Final Fantasy 15 has some really bad memory leak bug, and people were discovering the game was using up to around 45-50gig of virtual memory (RAM and pagefile combined), if you let it run long enough, obviously a 32 gig system made it much more bearable vs a 16 gig system, with 16gig, you would have to restart game every 5-15 mins, vs every 1-2 hours on 32 gig.

Not to mention if you work with virtual machines, ram is going to be your primary resource, even ahead of cpu core count.
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on January 26, 2020, 01:13:32 PM
I have been in a fair few 32gig ram discussions with people.

The big gaming pc reviewer type people, still push the idea 16 gig is all you ever need, and 95% of people argue that as well.

But I can only go by my own experience, the first problem I had was I had to keep closing chrome when playing games, 16 gig didnt cut it, and I felt that was constraining me so the PC got upgraded.  The second issue is Final Fantasy 15 has some really bad memory leak bug, and people were discovering the game was using up to around 45-50gig of virtual memory (RAM and pagefile combined), if you let it run long enough, obviously a 32 gig system made it much more bearable vs a 16 gig system, with 16gig, you would have to restart game every 5-15 mins, vs every 1-2 hours on 32 gig.

Not to mention if you work with virtual machines, ram is going to be your primary resource, even ahead of cpu core count.

Oh yeah I'd forgotten, I was also playing with PCI passthrough at the time so upgrading to 32GB meant I could allocate 16GB to a virtualised Windows VM.

I think the big gaming reviewers are mostly fair, 16GB is enough to run the game acceptably, they just never factor in things like big open world games and fast travelling around to areas still in the RAM cache.  Which makes sense, they don't have the time to test every little improvement it might give.

There's also the fact reviewers will be using a good, potentially SLC NVME drive.  Now with cheaper, relatively crap performing 3D NAND on the market, RAM can still be hugely beneficial even on a system using NVME.

I recently put a Corsair P1 in my NAS as the boot and extraction drive, was utterly appalled at how bad it performs.  The Western Digital Blue SATA SSD performs better on average, because the P1 bottlenecks FAST causing much more obvious stalls making the OS unresponsive.  When the whole point of going NVME is to make the OS MORE responsive.  The sad part is, my gaming laptop also came an Intel 660P, which is basically the same device.  For gaming workloads it seems okay, but its a far cry from the Samsung 850 EVO in my desktop.

In a broadband analogy, I'd rather have a consistent 50Mbit than a system where it peaks at a vastly higher speed, but throttles down so the average speed works out the same but you're sat watching 1K/s for minutes at a time.
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: Chrysalis on January 26, 2020, 02:10:18 PM
Yeah the windows pagefile system is not that good, it kind of quite aggressively pages out to disk, so e.g. even if I am using about 30% of system ram only, it will start swapping, and I believe the reason is that the developers have determined its preferable to keep more data in cache even if it means you caching other data out to disk, the idea been idle data on disk will have no performance hit, but of course if the algorithm gets it wrong and you then need that data, you then become i/o bound by the ssd/hdd.  Having more ram makes it less likely this will happen of course and you could even disable the pagefile completely.

So yes very good point on the storage side of things also, not to mention more ram also means more file cache.
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: CarlT on January 27, 2020, 11:58:50 AM
Yeah I'll stick with the RAM I have in the server here thanks. Not quite sure 16 would suffice.
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on January 27, 2020, 12:48:50 PM
I'd love to crank the RAM up in the NAS but its an ITX board so only two slots.

Officially I believe it only supports 32GB, although from past experience I would not be surprised if it handled 64GB, particularly if I used dual-rank sticks.  (oh interesting, apparently Z390 now supports 128GB with a BIOS update)

That said, upgrading to a high-end NVME would likely be cheaper and more beneficial. ;)
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: dee.jay on January 30, 2020, 09:52:58 AM
My use case for 32GB RAM isn't gaming, but virtualisation. Well, that's what I keep telling myself with my main desktop anyway. I hardly ever need to fire up a VM any longer because the "cloud" is changing my career and changing what I need to use to practice.

I use one ESX server to run pfSense and my services I need on my network so you could call that my production ESX server of sorts. The 3rd machine - well - 32TB ZFS NAS... and 4th - gaming/personal laptop - again for VM's but never spin them up any longer.
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on January 30, 2020, 08:16:54 PM
Yeah there is no getting away from the RAM requirements if you use VMs, which is presumably why containers have become so popular as it makes far more efficient use of resources.  Though granted, VMs can still dynamically adjust their RAM utilisation so its not entirely wasted.

But VM was definitely part of the reason I upgraded, then I gave up on running Win10 in a VM as I discovered a big problem, CPU resources.  Unless you dedicate cores to the VM alone, the latency in the VM causes issues in a lot of games, and that seemed HUGELY wasteful to lose those cores to a VM I hardly ran.
Title: Re: [Split From] G.fast with Green ISP
Post by: dee.jay on January 31, 2020, 10:37:17 AM
I often thought about running Linux and Windows inside as a VM, but this requires two video cards, or at least an onboard + discrete, then you have problem of IOMMU groups, USB sharing etc.

At this point, I'd just dual boot into Windows to just do Windows things, and then Linux for everything else.

Honestly I want to go 100% Linux, but, as I too game, and I often do things in between games, I'd just end up on Windows all the time. Maybe one day I will get round to it.