Kitz Forum

Internet => General Internet => Topic started by: gannite on December 06, 2019, 11:07:12 AM

Title: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: gannite on December 06, 2019, 11:07:12 AM
Can anyone explain why when i run a speed test,it tells me that i am in another town.
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: jelv on December 06, 2019, 12:02:32 PM
It's not just speed tests that put me in the wrong place - I find I'm being located all over the place on many different websites. I suspect what is happening is that the location software, if it doesn't have a location for your IP (e.g. you've used something on your smartphone when connected via your WiFi that recorded your location), it makes a guess based on IP's near to yours (e.g. if your IP is 123.123.123.45 and it knows the location of 123.123.123.37 it guesses you are in the same place).

The common thing I think with the locations I've been given is that they are all where other users of my ISP live.

Just ignore it (or think of it being an extra security measure by giving fraudsters duff information).
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: burakkucat on December 06, 2019, 04:24:30 PM
The common thing I think with the locations I've been given is that they are all where other users of my ISP live.

I have always found it to be where my ISP has a point-of-presence, whenever I have bothered to check.
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: jelv on December 06, 2019, 05:21:19 PM
According to petrolprices I currently am located some just north of the Watford Gap, nowhere near me or my ISP!
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: burakkucat on December 06, 2019, 05:36:03 PM
According to petrolprices I currently am located some just north of the Watford Gap, nowhere near me or my ISP!

  :D
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on December 06, 2019, 05:50:17 PM
This thread led me to check the google search page, which shows their guess at my location at the bottom.   I never log into google on a browser if I can avoid it , and I try not to let other Google Apps access my location yet just recently, Google search had been guessing my location with a creepy degree of accuracy. :o

But today, phew, Google think I am in Great Yarmouth.   I am nowhere near that town, several hundred miles adrift.   I’ll sleep better tonight, knowing there are still some things that Google don’t know about me.  :D
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: jelv on December 06, 2019, 05:55:26 PM
Strangely, my location at the bottom left of google.co.uk is 100% accurate at the moment: "United Kingdom"  :P
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: d2d4j on December 06, 2019, 06:56:01 PM
Hi

I thought due to GDPR, precise location for internet connection is not allowed

It is not that it cannot be found but that it should not be found for your location precisely.

I could be wrong though

We use geoip on our platforms but only to deduce the country origin and it attempts to determine if connection is from a vpn as well

Many thanks

John
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: burakkucat on December 06, 2019, 08:05:41 PM
I've never told Google my location. I make heavy use of Google Maps but not for in my own environment. So I've just called up Google Maps and taken a look at the area it displays. It does not show the geometric mean of the planet. It does not show the mid-point of Europe. It does show the mid-point of the UK. It does not show the mid-point of England. It does not show the mid-point of Suffolk. It actually shows a location (https://www.google.com/maps/@52.6860288,1.2009472,28m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) to the north-west of Norwich, Norfolk.  ::)

It is no secret that "The Cattery" is located in Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk.
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on December 06, 2019, 08:18:59 PM
I think Google search makes a lot of assumptions based on search history.

Regarding Great Yarmouth...    This morning, for example, I was browsing Amazon for a piece of garden apparatus.   I found something I liked, then narrowed it down by ‘googling’ for the manufacturer, who was Norfolk based.  I connected to that website a few times today, each time ‘googling’ to remind myself the precise URL, and clicking through.    It therefor seems like more than coincidence, a few hours later, that Google should have decided I probably live in Norfolk?

Re GDPR.   Not sure, but I thought GDPR was mainly about personal data, and not sure an IP address would be classed as ‘personal’.   My understanding....   For example, a junk mail database naming me as “Mr Muddle” with my postal address, is classed as personal data.  But the junk mailer can get around it by storing the same details but addressing me as “The Occupier” at same address, which does not count as personal data.  May be wrong, though.
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: d2d4j on December 06, 2019, 09:39:46 PM
Hi

@7lm - exact ip location (exactly where you live/are) is restricted unless you use gprs (say sat nav) and you confirm your acceptance of such

As an example, i use car genie and accepted that they have my details and exact location. However I use car genie as I do travel alone a lot and if I were to have an accident (say go off road in a ditch) and the car sensors detect accident, AA are meant to ring me and if no answer, despatch a patrol to the gps location to investigate

Could be a life saver... if it works as intended but rather not put it to the test

Many thanks

John
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on December 06, 2019, 10:06:04 PM
@d2d4j, my point is that knowing Mr Muddle lives at a particular postal address is classed as personal data.  My understanding is that GDPR places restrictions on how such personal data may be stored and used.

Knowing that an IP address corresponds to a particular postal address, whilst creepy and disturbing, is probably not personal data - because an IP address is not a person, and cannot be relied upon to identify an individual person.

I used to think that GDPR was the only positive contribution that the EU had offered me, as privacy is a thing that concerns me.  Having dug a little deeper, and concluded that GDPR is half-baked and pointless, I now remain open to persuasion as to anything worthwhile that the EU has ever offered me.   ::)
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: d2d4j on December 06, 2019, 10:37:49 PM
Hi

@7lm

Yes I understood what you were saying sorry

An ip is identifiable information and an exact address could be obtained (if say you were doing something illegal and police were involved with a court order). Google is not allowed to do this...

Bad people do not care about regulators/regulations so no amount of laws would stop them...

Many thanks

John
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on December 06, 2019, 11:01:42 PM
To clarify again... GDPR is largely about personal data.

Mr Muddle accessed a website from postal address  <whatever>” is personal data about Mr Muddle, that is covered by GDPR.

Mr Muddle accessed a website using IP address a.b.c.d” is personal data about Mr Muddle, that is covered by GDPR.

“A user signed in as Mr Muddle used our App and used it at geolocation <whatever>“ is personal data about Mr Muddle, that is covered by GDPR.

However...  “IP address a.b.c.d is associated with postal address <whatever>” is not personal as it doesn’t name a person, so I see no reason it would be covered by GDPR.

When I visit a website that appears to know my location, it actually just knows the location of my IP address.  The operators do not know whether it is me, or somebody else, sitting at the keyboard.  So it’s not personal data. :)
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: d2d4j on December 06, 2019, 11:20:55 PM
Hi

@7lm

Yes I understood your post


However, in certain circumstances an ip is identifiable to a person/s

Google I am sure has the facility to identify a person from their data (with a high degree of accuracy)

However, regulators stop them I am sure otherwise a quick search could bring everyone details up as easily as finding anything

Perhaps we are looking at this at 2 different perspectives and same for gdpr. Remember laws are interpreted and if you can show your interpretation is equal to another interpretation, yours is accepted as well as the other

Many thanks

John
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on December 06, 2019, 11:39:20 PM
If the legislators actually believe than an IP address identifies an individual then that belief itself is cause for alarm, as it is so wrong.  :o

An IP address does not identify a person any more than, say, their postcode.    Yet the postcode for a given street address is no secret, and pre-loaded into millions of sat navs.   Perfectly legal, as long as individual names at the address/postcode are not stored.   
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on December 07, 2019, 12:46:36 AM
Strangely, my location at the bottom left of google.co.uk is 100% accurate at the moment: "United Kingdom"  :P

Now that’s interesting.

When I visit google’s home page on my tablet (an iPad) before conducting a search, it shows  “United Kingdom”.   Below that it shows a box saying “Unkown - use precise location”.  If I tap that box, it says “Location unavailable”.

But as soon as I conduct a search, no matter what I search for, the lower box changes to “Great Yarmouth - From your Internet address”.   The “use precise location” box remains, with same response if tapped.

Does yours stay at “United Kingdom” and “Unavailable” after searching?
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on December 07, 2019, 08:08:22 AM
Google thinks I'm in Stafford from my IP address.  Then again, as I'm load balanced across two different ISPs I have no idea which one its basing this on.
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: jelv on December 07, 2019, 09:26:49 AM
When I visit google’s home page on my tablet (an iPad) before conducting a search, it shows  “United Kingdom”.   Below that it shows a box saying “Unkown - use precise location”.  If I tap that box, it says “Location unavailable”.

But as soon as I conduct a search, no matter what I search for, the lower box changes to “Great Yarmouth - From your Internet address”.   The “use precise location” box remains, with same response if tapped.

I'd never noticed that. I did a search using Google on my Android phone earlier today. Doing a Google search on the PC does indeed change from United Kingdom to my exact location.

Further to that, yesterday (as I posted) petrolprices was locating me near Watford Gap. In Firefox I gave that website permission to access my location. Google having got my location right must have stored it in Firefox somewhere because petrolprices is now also locating me very accurately.
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on December 07, 2019, 11:14:05 AM
I'm getting more and more fascinated by the Great Yarmouth location.

Google's guess for me in recent weeks has been very accurate indeed, usually naming a tiny hamlet of a village about a half mile to the east.   I've also seen it put me in Rochdale, a place I have never been, but that's attributable to the fact it is home of my ISP.

But Yarmouth is very consistent right now.  Same result for all our devices, so definitely based on IP address.

Trouble is, the sun's just begun to break through the drizzle here, and that has got me yearning to actually be in Great Yarmouth, where Mum & Dad sometimes took us family holidays.    Fish & chips (served open of course) for lunch whilst strolling the pier, play the penny machines til all my pocket money's spent, then  a nice afternoon stroll by the sea.  So much better than the various chores that real life has lined up for me today.   :D
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on December 08, 2019, 11:31:36 PM
Is this with WiFi on or off?  What devices?
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on December 09, 2019, 12:00:36 AM
Is this with WiFi on or off?  What devices?
Since the phenomenon appears to be based on IP address, I would expect the same outcome on all devices that share the broadband connection via NAT, both wired and WiFi. This is borne out by observations...

Tablets, phones and PCs all show the same... Great Yarmouth, including a laptop belonging to a visitor, but connected as a guest to our network.   Some of these devices, such as tablets and phones are, obviously, connected via WiFi.   My desktop PC however has a wired connection but gives the same result... I am hundreds of miles away, in Great Yarmouth.

On phone if I disable WiFi, so it falls back to mobile data, google search unsurprisingly bases its results on a different IP and shows a different location - “Greater London”.   Still wrong, but not as daft as Great Yarmouth. :)
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: g3uiss on December 09, 2019, 09:08:13 AM
Apple always recon I’m in London (250 miles away). When they do the verification thing.
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on December 09, 2019, 09:35:44 AM
Apple always recon I’m in London (250 miles away). When they do the verification thing.

That’s surprising, I’d have thought Apple’s verification routine would be privy to the device’s entire arsenal of location parameters, including Satellite, nearby WiFi and cell tower location triangulation, etc.   Mind you, not all devices have the hardware to do all these things.
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: aesmith on December 12, 2019, 04:29:10 PM
I tested my Andrews and Arnold IP address on various services, and none of them even locate me in Scotland.  Check just now gave Rickmansworth, Loughton and London depending on which database was used.   When I checked a while ago, and I can't remember the service, it put me down at an actual street address of an Indian takeaway in Warrington.

As a side effect, it gives me pleasure when things like Avast pop up a map from the other side of the country as "evidence" that I can be tracked.
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on December 12, 2019, 05:24:14 PM
I just checked and Google now has my IP address back in my own village.  Which is actually very accurate indeed as it’s just a small hamlet.   Disappointing though, I quite liked being a few hundred miles away in Great Yarmouth, taking in the sea breeze.

I have no idea what triggered the change.
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: burakkucat on December 12, 2019, 05:38:22 PM
Interestingly Google Maps, when called up without a location specified, now show me as in Brandon Country Park (https://www.google.com/maps/@52.4342682,0.6222173,14z?hl=en), somewhat north of my home town.
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on December 12, 2019, 07:54:36 PM
Interestingly Google Maps, when called up without a location specified, now show me as in Brandon Country Park (https://www.google.com/maps/@52.4342682,0.6222173,14z?hl=en), somewhat north of my home town.

Without wanting to sound critical, there might be scope for misunderstanding here.   Smartphone users may think of ‘Google Maps’ as being the stand-alone App that shows mapping as well as being a sat nav.   In iOS (assuming not signed in to Google) , that App simply seems to  launch at the last place it displayed, I’d be surprised if Android were different.

But when I visit the web version of Google’s Mapping resource, typing maps.google.com into my browser, it loads a map of my village.   It’s a pity I didn’t try that I was ‘in’ Great Yarmouth.   I’m confident it would have shown the Yarmouth area but, since the phenomenon is over I can’t be certain. :(
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: Chrysalis on December 16, 2019, 09:27:49 AM
These auto geolocate services annoy me, e.g. if i search in google it thinks I am on the other side of the country, and google are so confident that system works they dont allow an override to be configured for location.
Title: Re: Speed Tests And GeoLocation
Post by: gannite on December 20, 2019, 11:37:47 AM
Thanks to everyone.