Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: blue166 on October 22, 2019, 06:48:16 PM
-
Hi All,
I am looking for some support with this issue.
Basically the connection has been running great since 2013 with only one issue back in 2018 that an engineer visit fixed on the first occasion. The connection has been running full speed 80/20 - real world about 74-75mb download and 18-19mb upload. With a latency of 6ms.
That was until the early hours of Monday at around 1:45am (ish) when the latency has jumped by 8ms and download speed has gone down to around 63mb. Upload speed has pretty much remained normal for me.
My set up is a MK4 faceplate with a 5C master socket. ECI Openreach modem connected to an ASUS RT AC86u router. The set up has been great and before that was connected to an ASUS RT N66u which was also brilliant.
I did wait to see if any change over night and nothing so I now have alarm bells ringing. Something with the connection has gone a miss. Speed tests with the download seem to flat out at around 63mb and feels like it could go higher but being prevented. It isn't bouncing down and up its flat out 63 so that's why it feels it wants to go higher (I could be wrong).
The latency jump and this indicates interleaving but unsure why?
Obviously with the above setup I have no access to line stats (I know...) - Is there a pattern that points towards anything in particular?
Here is a tracert to bbc.co.uk...
1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms router.asus.com [192.168.1.1]
2 11 ms 11 ms 11 ms 172.16.10.67
3 * * 14 ms 31.55.186.181
4 14 ms 14 ms 14 ms 31.55.186.188
5 15 ms 15 ms 15 ms host213-121-192-54.ukcore.bt.net [213.121.192.54]
6 15 ms 15 ms 15 ms peer7-et-4-1-0.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [194.72.16.132]
7 15 ms 15 ms 15 ms peer5-te0-9-0-32.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [195.99.126.81]
8 14 ms 14 ms 15 ms 151.101.0.81
Here are some pics...
Many thanks in advance.
-
It's very difficult to say. :(
At a guess, I wonder if a new configuration profile was loaded into the ECI MiniShelf Hi-FOCuS M41 DSLAM and, post load, the device was warm-reset?
-
The last, but one, fault on my broadband that affected my speed was due to my phone line becoming unbalanced, causing my land line phone to be useless due to a high hum level. The cable pair got changed, and broadband fault went...................
-
The last, but one, fault on my broadband that affected my speed was due to my phone line becoming unbalanced, causing my land line phone to be useless due to a high hum level. The cable pair got changed, and broadband fault went...................
Good point. What you have described reads like an "earth contact fault" and such a fault does severely degrade the AC balance of the circuit.
I wonder . . . blue166, have you performed a quiet-line test from a (wired) telephone?
-
This sounds like interleave may have been applied to the connection? Do you have any before and/or after modem stats? Resyncing in the early hours seems to indicate DLM has detected a problem and is trying to see if interleaving will help. Thunderstorms, new crosstalker, engineers touching cables, phone line problem, act of god could all be the cause. Without stats not sure if we can be anymore specific if it is a permanent change or if it is could be temporary.
-
Hi Guys,
Many thanks for the input I really appreciate it. Something appeared to happen last night again at 1:15am (ish) The latency has currently gone back to what it was before. Upload speed remains normal for me. Download is around 2.5mb lower coming in at around 72-72.5mb - before this was around 74-75. I guess I am best just leaving it and not doing anything else in the meantime??
I guess I won't know whether I will get that extra speed back or not. Just waiting i suppose?
BT have offered me a smart hub foc as i am under contract. If I was to get this id imagine if I ever needed stats I could connect that and look through error logs etc... and line stats sync speeds etc...?
What do you think?
Here is another pic and tracert this morning...
tracert bbc.co.uk
1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms router.asus.com [192.168.1.1]
2 4 ms 3 ms 4 ms 172.16.10.67
3 * 6 ms 6 ms 31.55.186.181
4 6 ms 6 ms 6 ms 31.55.186.188
5 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms core3-hu0-17-0-9.faraday.ukcore.bt.net [213.121.192.54]
6 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms peer7-et-4-1-0.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [194.72.16.132]
7 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms peer5-te0-9-0-32.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [195.99.126.81]
8 7 ms 7 ms 6 ms 151.101.0.81
Also in regards to above and quiet line test. I have tried this over the last few days. I am not sure it's any different to usual. but then again I am not 100% sure. I will do another one now just to try my morning fresh ears...
Edit - I have just done another quiet line test (with a corded phone) and it sounds ok to my ears. I would describe it same as usual. So I think that seems fine. There wasn't any evident loud hisses,pops or crackles that I could tell.
Many thanks in advance
-
I bow to the more experienced members but due to the early morning resyncs it does seem something happened to the line, DLM intervened and enabled Interleaving causing drop in sync speed and increased ping and then decided the line didn't need any interleaving just a slightly reduced sync to keep errors under control.
Gut feeling new cross talker impacted your line, DLM has intervened sorted it out and you have lost a very small amount of speed. Given new cross talkers can drop your speed by 10-20Mb it could have been much (MUCH) worse.
The trick will be is the line stable enough if not interleave may be reapplied if you manage a few days without intervention hopefully you are sorted until another cross talker appears :(
-
I bow to the more experienced members but due to the early morning resyncs it does seem something happened to the line, DLM intervened and enabled Interleaving causing drop in sync speed and increased ping and then decided the line didn't need any interleaving just a slightly reduced sync to keep errors under control.
Gut feeling new cross talker impacted your line, DLM has intervened sorted it out and you have lost a very small amount of speed. Given new cross talkers can drop your speed by 10-20Mb it could have been much (MUCH) worse.
The trick will be is the line stable enough if not interleave may be reapplied if you manage a few days without intervention hopefully you are sorted until another cross talker appears :(
I shall keep an eye on things and report back.
I suspect with what you mention about crosstalk it's probably the main culprit. I have done well not to see the effects of it on my line in the 6 years of having my FTTC connection. It's probably been slowly eating away of my higher figures but I still had enough speed in the bank not to notice. Now its eating into my actual speeds :(
-
Also in regards to above and quiet line test. I have tried this over the last few days. I am not sure it's any different to usual. but then again I am not 100% sure. I will do another one now just to try my morning fresh ears...
Edit - I have just done another quiet line test (with a corded phone) and it sounds ok to my ears. I would describe it same as usual. So I think that seems fine. There wasn't any evident loud hisses,pops or crackles that I could tell.
Many thanks in advance
If your circuit was experiencing an earth contact fault you would certainly know it! In the light of the above results we can rule out any obvious faults.
-
If your circuit was experiencing an earth contact fault you would certainly know it! In the light of the above results we can rule out any obvious faults.
Many thanks,
I think I have grown to the fact that crosstalk has got me :(
-
I think I have grown to the fact that crosstalk has got me :(
Unfortunately it does, now, look like that is the case.
-
I bow to the more experienced members but due to the early morning resyncs it does seem something happened to the line, DLM intervened and enabled Interleaving causing drop in sync speed and increased ping and then decided the line didn't need any interleaving just a slightly reduced sync to keep errors under control.
Gut feeling new cross talker impacted your line, DLM has intervened sorted it out and you have lost a very small amount of speed. Given new cross talkers can drop your speed by 10-20Mb it could have been much (MUCH) worse.
The trick will be is the line stable enough if not interleave may be reapplied if you manage a few days without intervention hopefully you are sorted until another cross talker appears :(
In the absence of detailed line stats, I concur with your gut instinct, but I have a little bit more to add.
If the DLM intervened at 1:30 am on Monday, then "Something" happened on Sunday causing DLM to add Interleave and Error Correction.
The Error correction overheads will have caused the loss decrease in sync and throughput speed.
The fact that DLM put it right again within a couple days suggests that
1) It must have been on profile INP=3
2) It was a 1st offence and hopefully a one off caused by a single burst of errors.
I doubt DLM has anything more to give back - if it had gone to INP=4.5 the other day, then it would have taken longer for the latency to return to normal.
Back to the topic of crosstalk - DSM (dynamic spectral management) makes it less likely that sync speeds remain the same during periods of sync.
Power goes up and down depending upon crosstalk situation meaning more variable sync speeds. I mentioned about a week ago about the possibility of power wars between you and a neighbouring cross-talker depending on who sync'd first - more so now than previously.
Mine is doing some weird things right now as I see DSM stepping down my power.
To add insult to injury I've also been interleaved after a single spike of CRCs/ErrSecs lasting for one minute and DLM still hasn't forgiven despite it now being over a week. Mine isn't first offence though so it's taking longer :/
-
In the absence of detailed line stats, I concur with your gut instinct, but I have a little bit more to add.
If the DLM intervened at 1:30 am on Monday, then "Something" happened on Sunday causing DLM to add Interleave and Error Correction.
The Error correction overheads will have caused the loss decrease in sync and throughput speed.
The fact that DLM put it right again within a couple days suggests that
1) It must have been on profile INP=3
2) It was a 1st offence and hopefully a one off caused by a single burst of errors.
I doubt DLM has anything more to give back - if it had gone to INP=4.5 the other day, then it would have taken longer for the latency to return to normal.
Back to the topic of crosstalk - DSM (dynamic spectral management) makes it less likely that sync speeds remain the same during periods of sync.
Power goes up and down depending upon crosstalk situation meaning more variable sync speeds. I mentioned about a week ago about the possibility of power wars between you and a neighbouring cross-talker depending on who sync'd first - more so now than previously.
Mine is doing some weird things right now as I see DSM stepping down my power.
To add insult to injury I've also been interleaved after a single spike of CRCs/ErrSecs lasting for one minute and DLM still hasn't forgiven despite it now being over a week. Mine isn't first offence though so it's taking longer :/
Hello,
Many thanks for the help and input once again.
In terms of gaining stats I do have an Huawei modem I purchased from Ebay 3 or 4 years ago in stock. I don't believe it was unlocked at the time and not sure what I would have to do to unlock it? - Also not sure how ot would get a long with the ECI cab?
BT did also tell me while in contract I can get a smart hub. I presume that would give me all the stats too? And I could use it then disconnect it again to go back to stand a lone modem. Obviously would not want to be doing many power downs etc... as DLM would go berserk. What you think?
-
In the absence of detailed line stats, I concur with your gut instinct, but I have a little bit more to add.
If the DLM intervened at 1:30 am on Monday, then "Something" happened on Sunday causing DLM to add Interleave and Error Correction.
The Error correction overheads will have caused the loss decrease in sync and throughput speed.
The fact that DLM put it right again within a couple days suggests that
1) It must have been on profile INP=3
2) It was a 1st offence and hopefully a one off caused by a single burst of errors.
I doubt DLM has anything more to give back - if it had gone to INP=4.5 the other day, then it would have taken longer for the latency to return to normal.
Back to the topic of crosstalk - DSM (dynamic spectral management) makes it less likely that sync speeds remain the same during periods of sync.
Power goes up and down depending upon crosstalk situation meaning more variable sync speeds. I mentioned about a week ago about the possibility of power wars between you and a neighbouring cross-talker depending on who sync'd first - more so now than previously.
Mine is doing some weird things right now as I see DSM stepping down my power.
To add insult to injury I've also been interleaved after a single spike of CRCs/ErrSecs lasting for one minute and DLM still hasn't forgiven despite it now being over a week. Mine isn't first offence though so it's taking longer :/
sadly i expect its a 2 week wait
you have a link to your stats anywhere?
-
sadly i expect its a 2 week wait
you have a link to your stats anywhere?
Part of the issue with ECI modem is no stats. BT have offered to send a smart hub. Shall I just take it and plug it in for stats and for going forward if need stats?
I do prefer my ASUS RT AC86U and stand a lone modem ideally for normal use though.
Is it worth powering down my equipment. (Was going to for a firmware update for router) or just leave things be for now?
Thanks
-
Hi guys,
14 days on from the first episode and here I am again...
The connection has gone back to interleaving. This time it appears to have shaved around 1mb off the connection speed but latency back to around 14ms.
I don't know what is going on. And this ECI modem I have gives no stats. Don't know what to do next. BT have since sent me a smart hub 6 so am I going to have to plug this in and use it for stats? Can you use it in a modem mode setting in tandem with my ASUS router? - But again at this stage do I even as so much as turn my modem off and mess around or just leave it? Catch 22 it feels to me.
So something upset DLM 14 days ago exactly and something again on a Sunday has triggered it again????
I dunno what to think... Is this crosstalk? But 14 days exactly kicking in again? Is it weather related? Been having some stupid amount of rain but again 14 days exactly after first episode? Uhm... Electrical inside my property? But again 14 days exactly after first episode. - I am mega confused...
I'm at a loss. (Sorry so many questions).
Please help!
-
Hi Again,
After looking at a GEA report of my VDSL line it has mentioned possible internal wiring issue - possible bridgetap detected. I must add I have never changed/added any cabling since living here. However there has always been a separate blackish cable coming out of the grey junction box outside which runs to my daughters bedroom. This is in no way cabled in to my faceplate filter in my living room (master socket - Installed by OR). This old extention box is a single box with BT on it. Its live because if you plug a phone in you hear modem chatter and of course modem loses sync then. Now usually this point is never in use and in fact I keep tape over it.
So now I could be adding 2 and 2 and getting 5 but something has definitely happened recently to impact my connection (of course it could just be crosstalk) which if it is it is. But if something else has degraded and not helping matters then I'd rather that be addressed anyway.
My Max attainable downstream currently is 77.1mbit/s
Max attainable upstream is 25.0mbit/s
I do have a faint constant noise on landline. You have to concentrate to hear it but it is there. Pressing secrecy/mute you hear it more. Amplify might cause distortion so I guess that cant be trusted?
But I reckon there could be more to this??
Please help
-
It does sound like you have a bridge tap in the form of the extra socket going to your daughter's room. This will almost certainly degrade the connection but I doubt it is causing stability issues unless it is faulty in some way. Ideally it needs to be disconnected if not in use, but the fact that it appears to be on the Openreach side of the master socket means that, if you go by the rules, you should not really be touching it.
Perhaps you could post some photos of the inside of the junction box so we can try and work out how easy it will be to disconnect.
:)
-
It does sound like you have a bridge tap in the form of the extra socket going to your daughter's room.
<snip>
Perhaps you could post some photos of the inside of the junction box so we can try and work out how easy it will be to disconnect.
:)
Exactly what I would have typed. :angel:
-
I will get you some pics.
BTW my neighbour told me earlier that they upgraded there BB with TalkTalk and it's much quicker than before (ADSL). So they now have FTTC also :o :o
So as mentioned earlier that's probably the biggest hit on my line. But could a bridgetap be making things even worse? Especially there cable and mine stuffed in a junction box together?
Again I will get pics
-
A bridging tap acts as a tuned stub and will absorb energy at its fundamental and harmonic frequencies. So if it has always been there, it would have been degrading the service from the day the service was first deployed and nobody would have known any better.
If you and your neighbour share a service feed, from the D-side cable, before splitting into individual lead-in cables then, yes, there is a possibility that having upgraded their service from ADSL2(+) to VDSL2, there is more cross-talk originating from their VDSL2 service.
-
Hi guys,
In the meantime what you think about this? I actually always had the line length down at around 80-100m (How accurate is the GEA one of around 186m?)
Definitely mentions bridgetap. (I will get pics of junction box) Trying to wait until the rain is off not to let water in it.
GEA
GEA Test Detail
Test Outcome Pass
Test Outcome Code GTC_FTTC_SERVICE_0000
Description GEA service test completed and no fault found .
Main Fault Location OK
Sync Status In Sync
Downstream Speed 77.0 Mbps
Upstream Speed 20.0 Mbps
Appointment Required N
Fault Report Advised N
NTE Power Status PowerOn
Voice Line Test Result Pass
Bridge Tap Detected
Radio Frequency Ingress Not Detected
Repetitive Electrical Impulse Noise Not Detected
Cross Talk Not Detected
Estimated Line Length In Metres 186.2
Upstream Rate Assessment Very Good
Downstream Rate Assessment Very Good
Interference Pattern Not Detected
Service Impact No Impact Observed
Home Wiring Problem Not Detected
Technology VDSL
DP Type External
Profile Name 0.128M-80M Downstream, Error Protection Off - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off
Time Stamp 2019-10-31T20:00:00
Parameters MIN MAX AVG
Down Stream Line Rate 76.4 Mbps 77.6 Mbps 77.0 Mbps
Up Stream Line Rate 20.0 Mbps 20.0 Mbps 20.0 Mbps
Up Time 0.0 Sec 900.0 Sec 886.1 Sec
Retrains 0 3 0
Current and Last 15 Minute Bin Performance
Parameters Last Traffic Count(Upto 15 mins) Current Traffic Count(Upto 15 mins)
Start Time Stamp 2019-11-13T19:30:46.273+00:00 2019-11-13T19:45:46.273+00:00
Ingress Code Violation 0 0
Egress Code Violation 0 1
Errored Seconds 0 0
Severely Errored Seconds 0 0
Unavailable Seconds 0 0
-
I would very much trust the estimate being quite accurate - as accurate as an estimate can be.
80-100m seems like a gross underestimate based purely on best case scenario cable routing. If you had access to stats, you could potentially derive a rough figure from attenuation.
I don't want to make any presumptions about your setup, so I will just wait along with everyone else for pictures.
-
I do have a Huawei HG612 that I got from ebay a few years ago in stock. Just never swapped over in the end as all was good and left it. I should have really chucked it on the connection and monitored it but never :(
I believe I can gain lots of line info from it but how does one go about unlocking it? Also it isn't likely to upset the old ECI DSLAM is it?
But yeah I will quite happily take some info on unlocking it and can play.
Thanks,
-
I'm out and about on move but there are resources available under Modem Router Unlocking in the forum, and the wiki should also be of some use. I would do some links if I was at my desk...
And no, it should not make a significant difference. It may even perform better. But remains to be seen.
-
Here's all you need to know about unlocking the HG612 and associated matters: https://kitz.co.uk/routers/hg612unlock.htm
-
Many thanks guys,
I will give that a read tonight.
Thanks
-
Hey guys,
I still need to get in the junction box for pictures.
Can I just ask you experienced peeps if bridgetap/Star wiring always has some kind of bad effect on a VDSL connection? Is it just a no no? I have had this extra live cable since I have lived in the house without any noticable problem
However could it be a case that it had always the potential to just turn and cause issues. Also would it always have held my max attainable speeds back. So even when I was getting 75mb/19mb this would have always been eating something away and at some point was going to cause issues. (Not saying this is the issue) but perhaps another issue.
Thanks guys
-
Can I just ask you experienced peeps if bridgetap/Star wiring always has some kind of bad effect on a VDSL connection?
Yes. It has a bad effect on any xDSL service. (Where xDSL is any one of ADSL, ADSL2, ADSL2+ and VDSL2.) It would be more noticeable on a VDSL2 service than, say, on an ADSL2 service.
-
Ok I definitely need to get you guys some pictures from the outside junction box and maybe advice on what to snip and where. Spoke with an Openreach guy who said those ones are always grey area in terms of yes its outside but a lot of the time still chargeable. Obviously will have to see just how messy it is.
-
One more question if you don't mind.
When BT are telling me speeds they see sync wise are they testing from the exchange to the master socket? Or to the actual modem?
Or is it from DSLAM to master socket? Or again modem?
Many thanks in advance.
-
When BT are telling me speeds they see sync wise . . .
It is a report from the DSLAM of the data it holds. That data originates from both modems at either end of the link. The modem in the DSLAM (the VTU-C) and the modem in the CPE (the VTU-R) exchange their respective data sets on the status of the link. Either end can provide the data to a local interrogating entity.
Your ISP/CP, BT, will interrogate the DSLAM and you can interrogate your CPE.
-
Many thanks for the information 👍