Kitz Forum
Computers & Hardware => Apple Related => Topic started by: sevenlayermuddle on October 14, 2019, 11:27:34 PM
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Anybody else using Face Id?
Must say, I’m impressed. And unlike Touch Id, it still works when my face is wet. Or when wearing glasses, or even sunglasses in a darkened room, yet I do need to look directly at it.
I keep trying to fool it by trying to unlock whilst looking away. But in order to know if it has unlocked I must to use my peripheral vision, so it’s quite hard to see. My eyes are then gradually drawn closer towards the phone until, just as I can see it out the corner of my eye.... ‘snap’, the padlock opens.
I’ve heard rumours of rival phone manufacturers being taken aback by the robustness and security of Apple’s Face Id. The suggestion being that their inferior equivalents could be fooled by a static photograph. Far be it from me to comment. :D
Nice one, Apple. :)
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Is there any way you can protect against the possibility of a mugger grabbing the phone and sticking it in front of your face to gain entry?
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I think you can press some side button to turn off the feature and thwart the mugger, that is, if you know about it, can remember and can do what is needed in time. Having the presence of mind and dexterity required might be difficult. I think that if I were out and about in some dubious location (ie the mainland ;D ) then I would just turn the feature off and turn fingerprint id off too and stick with passwords. I have an iPad Pro v1 with fingerprint reader and an iPad 5, which relies on passwords alone.
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Is there any way you can protect against the possibility of a mugger grabbing the phone and sticking it in front of your face to gain entry?
It takes a direct glance at the screen to unlock. Whether that would be easy to resist, or if I’d have the presence of mind to look away, I don’t know.
But if a mugger actually wants to access a phone rather than just steal it, I think he’d actually be more likely to produce a big knife and demand “Tell me the passcode”. And I’d probably tell him. :'(
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I think that if I were out and about in some dubious location (ie the mainland ;D ) then I would just turn the feature off and turn fingerprint id off too and stick with passwords.
I used to feel the same. But one scenario that’s always slightly worried me with passcodes is... I catch a train to some crime-ridden metropolis, like London, passing the time by playing with my smartphone.
Then, sometime after arriving at destination and leaving the train, I get mugged. Train passengers have no privacy, so I’d be wondering, was the mugger looking over my shoulder every time I got the phone out, does he know my passcode?
I’d actually prefer to know with some degree of certainty, one way or the other, with the mugger can access my phone. In that respect, I reckon Face Id wins. Touch Id too, as I think I’d notice if the mugger had cut off my thumb and taken it with him.
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My new phone (Mate 20 Pro) has face ID, but I haven't tried it yet, just use finger print or pass code. I know you can disable face ID and possibly finger print as well by pressing the side button rapidly five times IIRC. I thought at the time it would be rather hard to locate and press the button in a threatening situation.
I also use Avast which has an app locker facility, so any financial apps and settings need an additional code or my finger print for an extra level of security
On my PC I have a Hello camera so can unlock that just by looking at it and it works very well. although haven't tried fooling it with a picture.
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Sticking with the perceived threats... I get impression many or maybe most mobile phone thefts these days are attributed snatching by moped riders...
...Since such phones are presumably engaged on a call, chances are they are already unlocked.
My iMac unlocks automatically when I get close, if I’m wearing my Apple Watch. Car makers (ref keyless access) could learn a lesson from the technology, as it uses a combination of bluetooth and WiFi. The WiFi element enforces a ‘time of flight’ restriction on the radio path, meaning the distance bounding is absolute. Any attempt to extend the range using repeaters just would not work. :)
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Hi
@7lm - sorry my post is going off topic but relevant to your last post
I watched a bbc program yesterday re keyless entry to cars and thefts
Apparently newer models now have a 40 second sleep before turning off (ie key is stationary for longer then 40 seconds) so no signal is then been transmitted
Also, to drive the car (not start the car) the key needs to within a short distance of the car or you cannot drive the car even if engine running
Sorry for been of topic
Many thanks
John
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Also, to drive the car (not start the car) the key needs to within a short distance of the car or you cannot drive the car even if engine running
Ah, but how is the ‘short distance’ enforced? If based purely on signal strength, it’s not really being enforced at all, it’s just a very rough guess.
Worth pointing out too that whilst I believe the iMac unlock to be secure, it is not always instantaneous, it can take 3 or 4 seconds. And occasionally, it just doesn’t work, I have to login the old fashioned way. That won’t bother computer geeks, but car buyers might expect perfection.
That is also why I avoid contactless payment cards - I believe (?) the technology relies on strength of the radio signal rather to establish proximity, than actual distance measurement. I’m not sure time of flight could even be measured accurately in that application, the expected distances being so close.
I do use the my Apple watch for contactless payments, but that requires a deliberate action on my part, a double tap on the side button. Imho, more secure than a normal debit card.
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just to add when i got burgled if my phone was locked, i wouldn't have got it back, as the thief returned after my nephew texted the phone
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just to add when i got burgled if my phone was locked, i wouldn't have got it back, as the thief returned after my nephew texted the phone
Can you clarify that?
iPhones can (and do, by default) display incoming texts on the lock screen. I have always disabled it as it seems to me like a bad thing. Am I missing something?
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Sticking with the perceived threats... I get impression many or maybe most mobile phone thefts these days are attributed snatching by moped riders...
I suspose its especially easy with the latest trend of holding the phone about a foot away on speaker phone.
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sorry 7lm didnt realise was specifically iphone thread, so yeah ignore my comment
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sorry 7lm didnt realise was specifically iphone thread, so yeah ignore my comment
No worries. The thread wasn’t intended to be iPhone specific, other than that Apple seem particularly committed to Face Id and, imo, it works well. Discussion of security features, Apple or otherwise always interests me, even if I fail to conceal personal bias. :-[
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Ok well in regards to android, it depends on the brand of rom. On oxygen os tho for example you can adjust what appears on the lockscreen, in my experience tho even if you dont specifically restrict what can show it will usually to tell you there is one waiting, but not the contents of the message but if only one is waiting it may show the recipient. Likewise with calls showing the recipient. I am not sure if this is affected if you enable unlock security, as I dont use unlock security.
I dont know why I have this line of thinking, a factor for sure is the convenience of getting into the phone quickly. But I suppose also that if I lose the phone, I see if they have access to my data, the fact I lost the device would concern me more and if its a mugging, I got bigger problems than if they can get into the phone or not. My phone isnt used for financial transactions, so they wouldnt have access to things like google pay, bank accounts etc.
Android seems to be focusing on fingerprint, pin unlock vs face unlock tho.
Given the standardisation of iOS and apple's better track record vs google for software, I expect an iphone to be more secure in general than an android phone. Consider how common place it is to root android phones as well. right now on my phone I have it rooted, xposed framework installed, and it still passes google's safetynet which deems it a safe and secure device to use for things like android pay.
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One factor in iOS regarding the lock screen is, for ‘mugs’ like me that are up to our necks in the eco system, incoming texts appear lots of other places too. They also appear on my iPad, on my iMac, and on my watch. In some ways, actually looking at the phone screen is a last resort. ::)
It can be quite distracting when I log into a site with 2FA on the iMac. It tells me it’ll send me a text then, within seconds, I am sent into information overload with popup messages on the Mac itself, a whack on the wrist from my watch, and a jingle from the iPhone in the other room. ;D
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One factor in iOS regarding the lock screen is, for ‘mugs’ like me that are up to our necks in the eco system, incoming texts appear lots of other places too. They also appear on my iPad, on my iMac, and on my watch. In some ways, actually looking at the phone screen is a last resort. ::)
It can be quite distracting when I log into a site with 2FA on the iMac. It tells me it’ll send me a text then, within seconds, I am sent into information overload with popup messages on the Mac itself, a whack on the wrist from my watch, and a jingle from the iPhone in the other room. ;D
Exactly, I’ve turned off iMessage on the Mac too many notifications :cool:
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I know what you mean, I have what's app on my PC, if I don't look at it straight away the phone will go bing a few seconds later. Then there s PayPal, make transaction on the computer and a while later the phone informs me >:(
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Back on topic, more evidence that Apple’s Face Id is better than some...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50085630
Google Pixel 4 Face Unlock works if eyes are shut
::)
Oddly enough, I stumbled upon one scenario that foxed Apple’s Face Id earlier in the week. At an eye test, my optician squirted some gloop in my eyes to dilate the pupils, at which point Face Id stopped working for a few hours, I had to resort to passcodes. Annoying, but good to see Apple play safe. :)
But Pixel 4 failing in a ‘false positive’ authentication... gee, that’s bad. :o
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I've recently bought a Moto G7, and it's got face recognition. But I was shocked when I set it up - it just took one quick snap of my face without giving time to line up my face in the scanned area, and that was it. When I tried using it from the lock screen, it only took a brief glimpse of part of my face to get a login. I kept on opening the phone by accident when I was doing other things. Needless to say, I dumped the face recognition very quickly.
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Back on topic, more evidence that Apple’s Face Id is better than some...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50085630 ::)
Oddly enough, I stumbled upon one scenario that foxed Apple’s Face Id earlier in the week. At an eye test, my optician squirted some gloop in my eyes to dilate the pupils, at which point Face Id stopped working for a few hours, I had to resort to passcodes. Annoying, but good to see Apple play safe. :)
But Pixel 4 failing in a ‘false positive’ authentication... gee, that’s bad. :o
it's not a "false positive" though. it's still the persons face. the eyes being open or shut doesn't stop it being that persons face.
eyes being open or closed is simply an "additional" security feature to stop the phone being unlocked when you are asleep.
however, finger readers have the same issue as it can't tell if you are awake or not.
google will be adding an option to only unlock when eyes are open though, so mostly a fuss about nothing IMO.
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I've recently bought a Moto G7, and it's got face recognition. But I was shocked when I set it up - it just took one quick snap of my face without giving time to line up my face in the scanned area, and that was it. When I tried using it from the lock screen, it only took a brief glimpse of part of my face to get a login. I kept on opening the phone by accident when I was doing other things. Needless to say, I dumped the face recognition very quickly.
Notwithstanding my well known personal bias for all things Apple, it does actually seem to be widely accepted that Apple's Face ID is in a different league to all the others. ISTR (but can't find the proof) that when Google launched a Pixel with Face ID, their press release even compared themselves to Apple as the 'standard setter', citing Apple as the only serious competing implementation. Unfortunately, it later transpired that you could awaken a Pixel with your eyes closed. ::)
IOS uses more than just the front facing camera, it is supposedly using some exotic infra red technology with 3d modelling. Setting up Face ID is actually a little tedious, requiring the user to move head around in a circle several times to allow the sensors to build an accurate 3d representation. But I don't mind tedious setup if it gives me greater confidence that it is safe. :)
It also allows you to configure an 'alternative appearance'. I'm not sure if that's intended to allow it to recognise (say) your wife, or to allow it to recognise yourself should you sometimes want to wear a disguise such as false beard and big nose.
it's not a "false positive" though. it's still the persons face. the eyes being open or shut doesn't stop it being that persons face.
eyes being open or closed is simply an "additional" security feature to stop the phone being unlocked when you are asleep.
however, finger readers have the same issue as it can't tell if you are awake or not.
google will be adding an option to only unlock when eyes are open though, so mostly a fuss about nothing IMO.
Indeed, Face ID that doesn't require eye contact is imho no better than fingerprint scanning. :)
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It seems Apple's face id can indeed be fooled, although they may have fixed this by now, and the circumstances have to be correct.
https://mashable.com/article/researchers-fool-apple-face-id-with-glasses/
Not sure it will work if the victim doesn't normally wear glasses.
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It seems Apple's face id can indeed be fooled, although they may have fixed this by now, and the circumstances have to be correct.
https://mashable.com/article/researchers-fool-apple-face-id-with-glasses/
Not sure it will work if the victim doesn't normally wear glasses.
The catch: the victim has to be unconscious for the hack to work.
:D
I guess, alternatively, the mugger could decapitate the victim and just take the head with him, along with the special glasses? Still a lot more bother than just chopping off a finger for equivalent attack with touch id.
And don’t forget passcodes are vulnerable too by the even easier expedient of just looking over the victim’s shoulder before the attack, while he/she unlocks. Or if that doesn’t work, by slowly pulling out the victim’s toenails, one by one, until he/she discloses it.
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I thought you'd find that amusing ;D
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It seems Apple's face id can indeed be fooled, although they may have fixed this by now, and the circumstances have to be correct.
https://mashable.com/article/researchers-fool-apple-face-id-with-glasses/
Not sure it will work if the victim doesn't normally wear glasses.
surely not!. they are just using it wrong (as apple would usually say).
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I guess, alternatively, the mugger could decapitate the victim and just take the head with him, along with the special glasses? Still a lot more bother than just chopping off a finger for equivalent attack with touch id.
And don’t forget passcodes are vulnerable too by the even easier expedient of just looking over the victim’s shoulder before the attack, while he/she unlocks. Or if that doesn’t work, by slowly pulling out the victim’s toenails, one by one, until he/she discloses it.
a chopped off finger wouldn't work.
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I've recently bought a Moto G7
Which model? My wife recently acquired a G7 Power - the battery life is very impressive, she only charges it about once a week.
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The model I bought is the Moto G7 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/motorola-6-24-Inch-Android-Sim-Free-Smartphone-Black/dp/B07N8KXQLH) (Amazon exclusive)
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Which model? My wife recently acquired a G7 Power - the battery life is very impressive, she only charges it about once a week.
does she never use it though :)
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The model I bought is the Moto G7 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/motorola-6-24-Inch-Android-Sim-Free-Smartphone-Black/dp/B07N8KXQLH) (Amazon exclusive)
Looks like an impressive spec for the price. Impressive spec regardless of price, actually. :)
If only it ran iOS, I might have been tempted. :P
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If only it ran iOS, I might have been tempted. :P
If it ran iOS it would be six times the price ;) :P
My daughters have Moto's, a G5 and G6 Play, both very good phones, although I did have to get the power switch repaired under warranty on the G6 Play, a common problem apparently.