Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ISPs => Topic started by: xreyuk on January 23, 2019, 11:04:42 PM
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Hi All,
Looking at leaving Plusnet, mainly due to their network congestion and their support being astonishingly awful (technical know-how has seriously reduced). Their profiling system has a habit of getting me stuck on stupidly low profiles (I'm currently stuck on 37Mb profile on a 56Mb sync speed), which the staff seem to have lost the ability to rectify without 4 or 5 phone calls to different people to get a profile reset done.
I mainly use my internet for gaming, the odd bit of streaming, and general browsing, but the heaviest (and most important use) is online gaming.
So far I've been looking at Zen, AAISP, ID-Net and Vodafone. After looking it's between Zen and Vodafone due to pricing and network structure.
It's my understanding that Zen, AAISP and ID-Net will use the same BT backhaul that Plusnet use and pick it up somewhere from BT. If my current congestion is BT related, then I will still suffer from this congestion moving to one of these ISPs. If not, based off pricing and their reviews, Zen are coming out as my first choice (the usage plans on AAISP are a bit poor for me, and I'm not messing about with billing every few months).
This leaves Vodafone, and it's my understanding that Vodafone actually pick up the connection from BT at the local exchange (where they have presence), getting me onto the Vodafone network quicker. As it's newer and I know they use multiple 10Gb connections to feed each exchange, this makes me think there will be lower congestion on their network, and obviously, they're priced very well.
Anyone got any thoughts/observations/corrections?
Thanks!
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Unless you are on a fixed IP with Plusnet, no ISPs use will be on the same network as your Plusnet connection. Plusnet use WBMC Dedicated not shared.
I'm astonished at your shortlist if you are leaving Plusnet because of poor support. https://www.thinkbroadband.com/isps/compare?commit=Compare&isp_2=1&isp_16=1&isp_104=1&isp_6=1 (https://www.thinkbroadband.com/isps/compare?commit=Compare&isp_2=1&isp_16=1&isp_104=1&isp_6=1) will show the reason. There's one that shouldn't be on your list!
Read posts here (http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/vodafone.html) for further information.
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Search the word Vodafone on these forums and read some of the posts from the last 6 months or so.
Go have a read on the Vodafone section of ThinkBroadband.
Vodafone has in my opinion the most congested widely available backhaul on the OpenReach network.
ISP's like Zen and AAISP will use a range of backhaul providers like BT Wholesale or Talktalk business.
Just because 1 ISP who uses BT Wholesale backhaul suffers congestion does not mean every ISP will.
Some ISP's who were using the Vodafone backhaul have since dropped them completely due to the serious congestion problems.
I'll be gobsmacked if you get a better performance on Vodafone than you do on Plusnet.
Vodafone is the last ISP I would recommend.
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I’ve personally only used AAISP and Sky. AAISP are very good, have great technical support and as far as I could tell when I was with them, zero congestion on their network, which was via TTB. They are quite expensive though. I’m currently with Sky and tbh, I’ve noticed zero difference. Sky’s network appears to be congestion free, I actually get better latency than I did with AAISP. I think that’s perhaps due to Sky having a POP in either Wolverhampton or Birmingham. I’m not sure how good Sky’s customer support is. Whenever I’ve contacted them via Twitter, they’ve been helpful though.
Out of your list, Zen, AAISP or IDnet would no doubt be good choices. All comes down to how much your willing to pay per month.
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As j0hn says, IDNet use multiple providers. I think their default position is Zen backhaul, but they also offer BTw and TTB backhaul on their FTTC connections. They are willing to move you to another backhaul provider if you have issues. I started on TTB, was moved to Zen where I had half speed single thread issues and am now on BTw, which has been the best of the lot as far my connection is concerned.
I would shy away from Zen as well, since they have well chronicled single thread speed issues intermittently (see ThinkBroadband forum).
Out of your short list of 4, all except Vodafone were on mine and I chose IDNet as the lowest cost option for mixed landline phone and broadband usage. Uno were the additional ISP that was on my short list and not on yours
Take Johns advice, check out the ThinkBroadband forum and you will see they have backhaul congestion issues. You would be better staying with Plusnet than jumping ship to them. IDNet, Uno and AAISP will provide a better service than Plusnet, but at additional cost.
I've added Plusnet and Sky to j0hn's TBB ISP comparison.
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/isps/compare?isp_2=1&isp_16=1&isp_77=1&isp_21=1&isp_104=1&isp_6=1&commit=Compare (https://www.thinkbroadband.com/isps/compare?isp_2=1&isp_16=1&isp_77=1&isp_21=1&isp_104=1&isp_6=1&commit=Compare)
Telling!
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As a Vodafone user, I would advise you to look elsewhere. At my previous property in South West Wales I experienced no problems at all, but now I am in South England I get hit by congestion at peak times. See my TBB BQM.(https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/quality/share/thumb/cc8e165ee42c3e8a0ef21968698db624004e0545-24-01-2019.png) (https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/quality/share/cc8e165ee42c3e8a0ef21968698db624004e0545-24-01-2019)
I'm no gamer so I can live with the congestion until my contract runs out, but I think it's a postcode lottery whether you will experience it or not.
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Thanks for the feedback guys, Vodafone are out of the running.
I want to avoid Sky like the plague, as I know three people on sky hanging off the same exchange as me and their service is bordering on unusable.
I’ll have a look between ID Net, AA ISP and Zen for pricing, ID Net seem to end up coming out more expensive than Zen, but I think I use anywhere between 200-500GB a month so AA ISP really isn’t ideal for me.
I am on a fixed IP in the Plusnet network, is this a problem, should I get off it?
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Phone calls are much, much cheaper with IDNet than with Zen, so you need to take that into account if you use the phone at all.
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but I think I use anywhere between 200-500GB a month so AA ISP really isn’t ideal for me.
You can change quota on AAISP every month and half your unused quota rolls over. You can use this to save money if you use more than 200GB per month but less than 970GB. See https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,22592.0.html (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,22592.0.html)
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You can change quota on AAISP every month and half your unused quota rolls over. You can use this to save money if you use more than 200GB per month but less than 970GB. See https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,22592.0.html (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,22592.0.html)
I did see that but knowing me I will forget.
With regards to static IP from plusnet, I have one so will I be connected on the old network? So if I’m having problems now there’s a good chance I’ll have them with another ISP?
Am I better getting off a static IP?
I’m connected to gateway PSB-IR01 if that makes a difference.
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Plusnet static IP does not mean it's on the older network. It does tunnel through to Plusnet differently, and if you didn't have a static IP, you should find that Plusnet's copy of the IP profile makes no difference, so it not being up to date wouldn't matter.
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If you change ISP you will be on a different network and IP address whatever type you have, static or dynamic.
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I thought that when Plusnet moved users on to their WBMC dedicated network they left the users on fixed IPs on WBMC shared. Am I correct and is that still the case?
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I think they did at that time but that's definitely not the case now.
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As Jelv correctly said, they were which is why I mentioned it.. but I noticed a change fairly recently so not sure now.
I'll try ask someone, but I've been in hospital and morphined up so will respond when I can.
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Previously static IPs had to go through the old gateways because the 21CN MSE bRAS only issued dynamic IPs from a local pool.
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As Jelv correctly said, they were which is why I mentioned it.. but I noticed a change fairly recently so not sure now.
I'll try ask someone, but I've been in hospital and morphined up so will respond when I can.
Thanks Kitz. Appreciate it.
I'm still in contract with Plusnet for a few months so if it's possible that moving off a static IP will move me from shared to dedicated and improve the congestion, I'd consider it.
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This post (https://community.plus.net/t5/Plusnet-Feedback/Traffic-Prioritisation-and-20CN/m-p/1465591#M78095) is about the most clear and authoritative statement I've been able to find:
Previously "Old Network" would refer to any user who was provisioned on the WBMC Shared Platform which meant their connection would come via L2TP to our old City Lifeline and Telehouse datacentres. We then added in the use of WBMC Dedicated at our new datacentres and started provisioning customers on this. This was the "New Network". This meant there was suddenly different bits of infrastructure that customers would be going over based on if they were "old" or "new", and the distinction was meaningful.
Nowadays, the only difference is down to the point where an IP address is assigned. Customers on usage limited broadband products, IP Stream (20CN) or who have a static IP have their sessions terminated on our BNG end points. These customers have effectively an additional piece of kit (the BNG) added into their route out to the internet where the IP address is assigned, but apart from that are going through the same network devices as other customers
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I'm still in contract with Plusnet for a few months so if it's possible that moving off a static IP will move me from shared to dedicated and improve the congestion, I'd consider it.
I'm pretty sure it won't move you between WBMC Shared and WBMC Dedicated, but it may stop the Plusnet Current Line Speed reducing your speed (which it used to do very slightly even when set at the "correct" value).
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Answer :-
They now LT2P between Plusnets RADIUS and the dedicated MSILs, but there are still a few stragglers.
It's mostly only 20CN using WBC shared now.
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I only noticed the changes on a tracert within the past couple of months.
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ETA (Further message)
Person I asked said not aware of any congestion on their part of the network*, but congestion bottleneck these days is the Wholesale VLANs. :/
*Person who told me, does not BS.
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.. and another message.
Non L2TP gets all of the caching from Google/Akamai etc too, but static doesn't.
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So in short, it doesn't matter that I'm on a static IP?
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I find that difficult to believe.
traceroute to www.intel.com (84.53.168.5), 30 hops max, 52 byte packets
1 _gateway (192.168.0.1) 2.965 ms
2 *
3 129.hiper04.sheff.dial.plus.net.uk (195.166.143.129) 23.983 ms
4 128.hiper04.sheff.dial.plus.net.uk (195.166.143.128) 25.508 ms
5 195.99.125.136 (195.99.125.136) 24.923 ms
6 194.72.16.80 (194.72.16.80) 32.141 ms
7 *
8 a84-53-168-5.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com (84.53.168.5) 26.040 ms
The route to anything Akamai seems to be a typical Plusnet -> BT -> some presumably close Akamai node.
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So in short, it doesn't matter that I'm on a static IP?
Static IP makes your connection worse due to the Plusnet Current Line Speed (their copy of the IP profile).
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I find that difficult to believe.
traceroute to www.intel.com (84.53.168.5), 30 hops max, 52 byte packets
1 _gateway (192.168.0.1) 2.965 ms
2 *
3 129.hiper04.sheff.dial.plus.net.uk (195.166.143.129) 23.983 ms
4 128.hiper04.sheff.dial.plus.net.uk (195.166.143.128) 25.508 ms
5 195.99.125.136 (195.99.125.136) 24.923 ms
6 194.72.16.80 (194.72.16.80) 32.141 ms
7 *
8 a84-53-168-5.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com (84.53.168.5) 26.040 ms
The route to anything Akamai seems to be a typical Plusnet -> BT -> some presumably close Akamai node.
I don't get any kind of route like that on my static IP, here's my route.
1 r7800 (192.168.0.1) 2.053 ms 2.001 ms 1.207 ms
2 vl241.ptw-ag02.plus.net (84.93.253.120) 16.589 ms 16.887 ms 15.719 ms
3 84.93.253.123 (84.93.253.123) 16.619 ms 16.092 ms 16.443 ms
4 195.99.125.134 (195.99.125.134) 18.124 ms 16.444 ms
195.99.125.138 (195.99.125.138) 16.917 ms
5 194.72.16.96 (194.72.16.96) 16.726 ms
peer2-et0-0-2.slough.ukcore.bt.net (62.172.103.204) 17.115 ms
194.72.16.64 (194.72.16.64) 17.078 ms
6 109.159.253.147 (109.159.253.147) 16.984 ms
ae60-0.lts-96cbe-1b.ntwk.msn.net (104.44.13.46) 28.125 ms 16.557 ms
7 be-71-0.ibr02.lon30.ntwk.msn.net (104.44.9.246) 155.321 ms
and to bbc..
1 r7800 (192.168.0.1) 2.752 ms 1.987 ms 2.115 ms
2 vl241.ptw-ag02.plus.net (84.93.253.120) 15.719 ms 16.415 ms 16.245 ms
3 84.93.253.127 (84.93.253.127) 15.959 ms 16.790 ms 16.769 ms
4 core1-be1.southbank.ukcore.bt.net (195.99.125.130) 16.649 ms 17.612 ms 16.226 ms
5 peer7-et-7-0-5.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net (62.172.103.166) 16.619 ms
peer2-et0-1-5.slough.ukcore.bt.net (62.172.103.210) 17.297 ms
peer8-et0-1-5.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net (109.159.252.102) 17.044 ms
6 * * *
7 * * *
8 * * *
9 * * *
10 * * *
11 * * *
12 * * *
My plusnet gateway is indicated as psb-ir01, which isn't a bng/ag node, but you can clearly see from the traceroute I pass through one of those. Do my traceroutes indicate I'm still on WMBC shared?
Static IP makes your connection worse due to the Plusnet Current Line Speed (their copy of the IP profile).
Thanks, so it's worth coming off it, if I don't need it?
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I can't really tell where those traceroutes were going to, but my traceroutes to those IP addresses look quite similar on a non-static IP.
Thanks, so it's worth coming off it, if I don't need it?
Yes.
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My plusnet gateway is indicated as psb-ir01, which isn't a bng/ag node, but you can clearly see from the traceroute I pass through one of those. Do my traceroutes indicate I'm still on WMBC shared?
You can't tell from the traceroute as it is tunnelled and the can't see any of the intermediate hops between your router and the Plusnet gateway in London. When someone with a fixed IP is moved from shared to dedicated they see no change in the traceroute.
If you don't need a fixed IP you'd probably be better without it.
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Thanks I’ll, I’ll try coming off it until my contract is up.
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Coming back to this.
I've been looking at ID Net, and saw they have gaming.idnet.uk for gaming packages.
From what I've seen this appears to simply be their normal packages with elevated traffic priority.
Does anyone know if that service is any different in terms of routing etc?
If it isn't, is their elevated traffic priority worth the extra cost?
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Btw AA has zero congestion in their network and in carriers. They also offer the option of elevated traffic priority within BT and in their own network at extra cost, a BT thing.
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So far I've been looking at Zen, AAISP, ID-Net and Vodafone. After looking it's between Zen and Vodafone due to pricing and network structure.
As others have said, I would definitely avoid Vodafone and probably Zen as well.
I would, however, suggest you add BT Retail as an ISP to consider. While their telephone support may not be the best, their staff on their forum are good - and the service just works.. so you shouldn't need them.
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I haven't read all the thread, but as soon as I read your thinking of going to Vodafone I thought I better inform you of my experience, my sister was with them and they were DIRE to deal with as she had lots of congestion issues! also, I went for an interview with the company that handles Vodafone's customer service and the complaint rate was a HORRENDOUS 20% of all incoming calls..!! the staff looked like they were sick of their lives and ready to jump off a cliff, within 2 minutes of the 2 hour long process I knew I wouldn't be working there ... it was THAT bad...
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Sky.
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Left P.Net long ago after it was taking 30min plus just to end up talking to a script reading numpty, with no technical abilities whatsoever.
Been with https://pulse8broadband.co.uk/ and what a diff, contact is easy whether by phone or email they know what they are talking about and thing's just seem to work. No drops or disconnects unlike P.Net who were continually on/off never knew where you were.
So it's a huge big 'plus' from me for Pulse8 well worth checking out also there call rates are very reasonable indeed, go take a look you might be pleased you did.