Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Hardware => Topic started by: Alex Atkin UK on September 09, 2018, 09:19:32 PM
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Been meaning to ask, is there a recommended replacement for the HG612 these days that still gives you all the stats and doesn't suck on ECI cabinets?
I assume the modem drivers must have changed in the last four years?
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. . . is there a recommended replacement for the HG612 these days that still gives you all the stats and doesn't suck on ECI cabinets?
I would recommend one of the ZyXEL VMGnnnn-B10A series.
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Its a tricky situation as technically I don't need to replace it, but as my line stats have deteriorated I was curious if modem improvements have been seen to make any notable differences on ECI DSLAMs.
The ECI modem always seemed a little lower latency and maybe 1Mbit faster at times, but it was the latest version that can't be hacked which bothered me. Now with the g.FAST rollout scaled back I think its going to be a LONG time before they bring FTTP to my penniless street.
I do use RFC4638 though.
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I do use RFC4638 though.
Then one of the ZyXEL VMGnnnn-B10A series devices with firmware incorporating the Olipro patches will be appropriate for your needs.
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I was in the same situation about a year ago (thread (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,20399.msg356068.html)) and ended up trying both the VMG1312-B10A and VMG1312-B10D. Ultimately, the VMG1312-B10A performed best on my line and it has been working well since. I am using the Olipro patched firmware with it to enable Jumbo Frame support.
So that's another +1 for the VMG1312-B10A as a HG612 replacement!
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I note there are a few ZyXEL modems - is the B10A the best? If so, why is that?
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I note there are a few ZyXEL modems - is the B10A the best? If so, why is that?
The VMG1312-B10A uses a superior Broadcom chip, the 63168 (VMG1312-B10D I believe uses the cheaper 63381) and also has extra filtering on the line side.
:)
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I am in search boat and needing to replace my HG612 as well. Does these VMG1312-B10A's have the ability to go into modem mode so I can then use my VR2600 for network routing without the risk of double nat? Also does this work with dslstats as well?
Sent from my LLD-L31 using Tapatalk
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Does these VMG1312-B10A's have the ability to go into modem mode so I can then use my VR2600 for network routing without the risk of double nat?
Yes.
Also does this work with dslstats as well?
And yes. :)
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Yes.
And yes. :)
Right just bought one should be here tomorrow although they are expensive.
Edit: is unlocking them easy enough? Or is it a TTL hack job?
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Edit: is unlocking them easy enough?
It really depends upon whether the device you have purchased is an ISP/CP branded device or a vanilla ZyXEL device. Both VMG1312-B10As that I own were ISP/CP branded but were trivial to convert back to vanilla ZyXEL devices. In the worst possible case scenario following the steps that I outlined in an earlier thread (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,22372.msg382301.html#msg382301) will be sufficient.
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It really depends upon whether the device you have purchased is an ISP/CP branded device or a vanilla ZyXEL device. Both VMG1312-B10As that I own were ISP/CP branded but were trivial to convert back to vanilla ZyXEL devices. In the worst possible case scenario following the steps that I outlined in an earlier thread (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,22372.msg382301.html#msg382301) will be sufficient.
Purchased from CCL so hopefully it's generic firmware is it like the HG612 using the reset trick and 192.168.1.100 trick with uboot. Might ask for help as my HG612 is confirmed fecked as using the ISP TG589vac be right now and not having the issues I had with HG612
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Is there an accepted "best" model that replaces the HG612? I've seen some on here favour Lantiq chipsets, whilst most are content with the good ol' HG612's.
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@dee.jay - arguably the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A or its more modern replacements and their higher end wireless modem-routers. ZyXEL have stopped selling the B10A, although new ones can still be found but they are starting to get ridiculously expensive as they are so highly sought after. I suspect that there are other models that are equally good in respect of the modem part (I hope so anyway), and there are now ones that have much better wireless. All of these have a high quality Broadcom chipset. The B10A has a quality analog front end with a noise rejection filter, some of the top end ZyXEL modem-routers but not all may have this too, but some definitely do not, so I am told.
The ZyXEL VMG1312-B10D is a cheaper replacement, which has a lower quality modem, so I am told, but this may not matter for some users - not sure if it even applies if you are using FTTC or if you have a very good line. Perhaps someone who knows what they are talking about would chip in?
I am told Billion has very good reputation.
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Yes, was looking at the VMG1312-B10A - and indeed, as you say, ~ £120 on eBay for them.
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Yes, was looking at the VMG1312-B10A - and indeed, as you say, ~ £120 on eBay for them.
The VMG8324-B10A or VMG8924-B10A are incredibly similar (same chipset, same filter) and have not suffered the same sort of increase in price.
There is an 8924 finishing on ebay tomorrow just before lunch time, should go for a fraction of the price you see 1312s at.
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Thanks for the tip!
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There's also the VMG3925-B10B which has the same attributes as the two mentioned above.
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OK, I'll bite.
Snagged a VMG3925-B10B for £31 delivered.
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Ok my VMG1312-B10A has arrived how does one tell if it's generic firmware and how does one get the supervisor password?
So I followed bcats instruction however getting unrecognised command save_default clean and ideas as that command shows in help.
Edit 2: Sorted didn't see the older firmware requirement so now I have supervisor password ready to change it.
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OK, I'll bite.
Snagged a VMG3925-B10B for £31 delivered.
Good stuff! I think this will probably be the modem most people go for in the future as it has better availability than the older ones.
Thanks to jhm there is firmware for jumbo frames:
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,21273.msg382724.html#msg382724
He also has firmware for setting the supervisor password (necessary for gathering stats with DSLStats or similar) to match the admin password every minute, but if you wish to acquire it yourself:
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,20006.msg373562.html#msg373562
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Awesome! Thanks. I'll definitely be doing that.
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OK this is interesting. I have a ZyXEL VMG3925-B10B now sitting on my desk. However, I have no option anywhere to upgrade/flash firmware. I'm guessing I need a USB TTL device now?
EDIT: Don't worry, catching up with other threads, got some research to do!
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Just managed to snag a VMG1312-B10A for peanuts too. Result!
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There's also the VMG3925-B10B which has the same attributes as the two mentioned above.
No additional filter (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,18246.msg383403.html#msg383403) on this model though.
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@j0hn - good to know
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Hi
Same situation as OP but if I have a BT homehub 5 at my disposal should I use that instead of the VMG1312-B10A?
My local cabinet is a Huwaei one I think. This one here:
https://imgur.com/wMtQxd7
Whilst there is nowt wrong with my modem I need one that has integrated wifi and is compatible with my cab (Broadcom chipset) I think. Because I have a Ring doorbell which is really terrible at picking up wireless signal from my Asus 87U in the middle of the house.
The modem is situated closer to it but has no wi-fi.
Thanks
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My local cabinet is a Huwaei one I think. This one here:
https://imgur.com/wMtQxd7
That cabinet certainly is equipped with a Huawei MA5603T MSAN and, thus, the line-cards use a Broadcom chip-set.
I can never remember the inner details of the various BT Home Hubs, so I will leave it to others to comment on the viability of a HH5. I have a vague notion that there is a HH5A & a HH5B . . . and one is better than the other.
I'm sorry but I am having difficulty understanding what you mean about the doorbell and an Asus device. ???
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BT HomeHubs are locked down, so you cannot get full stats from them. :no:
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Thank you. So hh5 is a no go.
Cat - In short my wireless doorbell is useless.
Now you've identified my cabinet is not ECI and is Broadcom based which zyxel model do I buy please?
Thanks in advance.
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I will always suggest a ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A . . . but they are no longer manufactured and, thus, are becoming a "premium" second-hand product. Avoid the VMG1312-B10D, the "economy" replacement for the VMG1312-B10A.
Other members will, in due course, make suggestions of other ZyXEL devices for you to consider.
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Another nail in the coffin for the VMG1312-B10D is that with the later versions of the firmware you can't use DSLstats!
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Don't know if I was doing anything wrong, but the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A was absolutely no faster than the HG612 it replaced.
I didn't even bother trying the VMG3925-B10B.
Not sure what to do now, may have two ZyXEL's I'd like to sell!
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It might well not be. Your line could be too good, or it might not apply in the case of VDSL2. Mine are in some cases slightly faster, 3% downstream, worse on upstream sometimes. But much more stable, and at a higher downstream SNRM, so would be quite a bit faster at a comparable SNRM. Compared to my previous modems, the B10As have Broadcom proprietary ‘PhyR’ (L2 retx, the equivalent of G.INP) working and that is part of the improvement and huge reliability increase.
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After having a think, I'm going to try the 1312-B10A on my father's line as his is a bit more unstable.
And, what I didn't consider, thinking about it - is actually using one of these on the AAISP line that I know I can tweak the MTU on and at least have full control that way.
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Gave it a second go - it actually does add 1-2Mb on my AAISP line.
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And this morning has cost me 4Mb of upstream on that line - These modems are no good for me, it seems.
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I had worse upstream with the B10A on some lines compared with DLink DSL-320B-Z1 modems.
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My experience is similar. The B10A gives better downstream, but worse upstream. It does also have a significantly lower bit swap rate than the HG612.
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I have just installed a 1312-B10A and it has been a disappointment speed wise. I have tried several modems routers on my ECI line, and the 1312 is actually the slowest. I have had much more success with Lantiq chipsets. Rough speeds have been:
1312 - 61 Mbps
HG612 - 62 Mbps
Draytek 2860n - 63 Mbps
Openreach ECI - 63 Mbps
Home Hub 5a - 64 Mbps
Draytek 2860n with SNR tweaked to 3 db - 74 Mbps.
Although tweaking the SNR does increase my error seconds, it's a price I'm willing to pay. The Draytek is getting put back in ASAP :)
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I have just installed a 1312-B10A and it has been a disappointment speed wise. I have tried several modems routers on my ECI line, and the 1312 is actually the slowest. I have had much more success with Lantiq chipsets. Rough speeds have been:
1312 - 61 Mbps
HG612 - 62 Mbps
Draytek 2860n - 63 Mbps
Openreach ECI - 63 Mbps
Home Hub 5a - 64 Mbps
Draytek 2860n with SNR tweaked to 3 db - 74 Mbps.
Although tweaking the SNR does increase my error seconds, it's a price I'm willing to pay. The Draytek is getting put back in ASAP :)
I would not be disappointed myself since the 1312-B10A is actually within a very small margin (~1.5% slower in your case) of another Broadcom-based modem that you have tested on your line. It could actually be faster or slower than the HG612 depending on line conditions and DSLAM parameters.
I imagine that this is at the target margin of 6 dB (3dB is not possible on ECI)? If the assumption is correct, then you may not benefit from having the 1312-B10A in place except for the potential for improved stability and lower error rates. It should be mentioned that if the 1312-B10A is in fact able to provide connection with less errors then it may allow for the DLM to reduce interleaving overheads leading to an increase in sync speed.
Quite obviously there appears to be a trend here. Lantiq-based modems seem to sync better on your line. Without seeing specific parameters then it is a little unscientific (since there could be varying levels of interleaving, etc.). But if the tweaking of SNR to 3dB with the 2860n shows itself to be stable and gives you the highest speed then I can't blame you for doing it.
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Disappointed is perhaps too strong a word, but I was hoping the 1312 would be a decent improvement over the HG612. Also, in the few days I've had the 1312, there's been no real decrease in in error seconds compared to the others, and I had high hopes for the "filter" the 1312 boasts. It's no hardship going back to the Draytek though, and now I know not to worry about potentially missing out on performance, and I'm sure I'll get my cash back for the 1312 on ebay, so everyones a winner :)
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1312 - 61 Mbps
HG612 - 62 Mbps
That's the first time I've seen anyone report the Zyxel VMG1312-B10A to be slower than the HG612.
You either have an exceptionally good performing HG612, an exceptionally bad performing 1312, or something in between.
Your experience certainly isn't the norm.
Definitely a VMG1312-B10A and not a VMG1312-B10D?
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I tried my 1312-B10A on my father's line - he now gets 55000 sync up from 53000.
He's rather happy with that. Proves that not all lines are the same.
Just a shame he's on an ECI cabinet, attainable rose from 60000 to 65000
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You have to be very careful indeed with these tests, use proper test methodology (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15905.msg307641.html#msg307641) of resynching with the existing modem to make sure that any sync rate change is not simply one that you would have got anyway without even changing modem. Could be that SNR has changed over time, or it could be that DLM is punishing you simply for resynching. I would respectfully say that all our tests do not mean anything without rigorous sanity check procedures being followed, as I have myself got it wrong numerous times (two days ago for instance) and obtained bogus results.
I have recently lost ten percent of some sync rates without changing any kit.
Having said that, the B10A was for me faster downstream in some situations compared with my former DLink DSL-320B-Z1 modems, but not faster in other cases, and sometimes, but not always, the upstream was quite a lot slower. However it was far more stable, never ever loses the connection and resynchs on its own. Also it is not a fair comparison as the DLink modems run at a very very low SNRM often down to 1.5dB or even 0.6dB downstream where the target is 3 dB, whereas the B10A runs at say 3.1dB downstream sometimes drops to 2.5dB. If I tweak the B10A to run at the same low SNRM then it would be about 5% faster than the DLink downstream.
I tested a Draytek Vigor 130 on my extremely slow long ADSL line and it was a mite slow compared to my DLink modems but very solid. So again SNRM needs to be taken into account, which I did not do. The DLink just happens to be very aggressive, so in a way it is cheating, and my comparisons have not been really fair.
For me the B10A is also outstanding because it supports Broadcom’s proprietary PhyR L2 retx protocol, which is the equivalent of G.INP. And this works with my particular DSLAM/MSAN even though this is only ADSL2 not FTTC/VDSL2. This makes it massively more stable.
It may be that the Vigor is especially well suited to your particular DSLAM. I do like the Vigors a lot, very straightforward - you just plug them in and they work. And their PPPoEoE to PPPoA protocol conversion for ADSL users is superb a performance boost due to greater protocol efficiency (less bloat, less wasteful unnecessary data sent). More speed for free for two-box, ie modem plus router, users on ADSL. A built in speed advantage over all other modems. Doesn’t apply to you of course, but I think it says a lot about the design team that they care, cleverly saw an opportunity and just went for it rather than being lazy. Unless there is some problem created by intellectual property rights, it is amazing that no one else has bothered to implement this excellent performance-enhancing technique. I would get a benefit out of it in some circumstances.
There has been some amount of discussion on the issue of whether there are certain benefits to having modems whose chipset is from the same manufacturer as that of the chipset in your DSLAM. I think Kitz said ‘no’ a long time ago. I don’t know where opinions are nowadays. In my own case there is a special synergy because I happen to now have an exchange with Broadcom chips in the DSLAM/MSANs and these support the important PhyR protocol like my Broadcom-based ZyXEL modem. So it is down to a protocol availability issue, availability of features. Not obviously a case of something deeper involving modems at the two ends thinking alike generally.
Sincere apologies for this insane post which grown into a monster. Bottom line; perhaps retest very carefully and give the modems another chance by passing judgement after vigorous testing and a reasonable length of time to assess performance. Also note SNRM values as otherwise speeds are not being fairly compared.
Edited to correct link at top of post - Roseway
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Thanks for all the input. Just to confirm, it is definitely a B10A, but it is from ebay, so perhaps it was sold on due to it's average performance, as I'm about to ;) There is also a variation in sync speed of up to 2Mbps if I reconnect at certain times of day, I assume crosstalk, but could be another factor. I've tried to average the speeds out over several periods of use, but I think my results accurately reflect the general trend. I have had other modems too, an older sagem and a technicolor, both broadcom, and both outperformed by the home hub 5a.
The default snr on my line is 6db as you suspected. For some reason Lantiq is conistantly slightly better on my line, and being able to tweak snr and remain stable is an unbeatable perk. I may pick up anther Zyxel at some point for comparison purposes, but I' quite happy with the vigor as it stands (despite the poor wifi performance, which I remedy with an access point).
Cheers.