Kitz Forum
Computers & Hardware => Networking => Topic started by: michty_me on August 10, 2018, 05:15:08 PM
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I'm interested in finding out who every tends to stick with for routers for the home. This can be in terms of quality, Customer support, Ease of use, Features built in etc.
This is my thoughts so far on past equipment:
Billion - Seem reliable, WiFi can be hit or miss on them, Design could be improved and updated, Plenty of features, Support seems excellent and listen to customers when issues are found in Firmware.
Netgear: Nice designs, WiFi is great, Too basic with features, Equipment only lasts a few years, Customer support is non-existent and don't seem to give a hoot about issues. Don't think I want to venture back to them.
Asus: Love the designs (Very futuristic), DSL items are better used as a door wedge, Customer support are useless and can't answer basic questions correctly from my experience. I was willing to give them another go after the whole DSL-AC68U debacle but with being given false information from them the other day, I don't see them being any better.
Basically, I'm on the look out for new equipment, Looking to keep it fairly simple but would like to hear everyones thoughts on other manufacturers.
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I sense that you are really asking about CPE rather than "true" routers. Would that be correct?
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I sense that you are really asking about CPE rather than "true" routers. Would that be correct?
Yes that's right. Not too hot on my terminology to be honest :-[
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Billion is usually the manufacturer I go for. Usually cheaper than Asus and Netgear for what could be a comparable product, but from what I have witnessed Billion seem to be better in terms of:
- Support (not that I've had to deal with Asus of Netgear directly, but I've seen about it). There is a good degree of interaction on the forum and the ticket system seems to get a decent response from Billion.
- Stability. I've read horror stories about the use of MediaTek in Asus modems. And while there are good modem chipsets that exist in Asus devices, it seems to be unclear to those just desperate to buy a super duper WiFi modem-router combo that sometimes use inferior chipsets. Billion has a decent reputation as they use Broadcom chipsets.
- Security. I've not really had to worry about security issues on my devices. Unlike on a lot of Asus and some Netgear devices which have been subject to a few security flaws on their devices.
- Performance. Billion devices, because of the use of Broadcom chipsets, tend to be some of the top performers in reference to DSL. Back in the day when I had a long ADSL line and even now when I have VDSL2.
- Interface. This is something very subjective as some people think the Billion interface is boring and acient-looking. I, on the other hand, like the fact it is a no-bullsh*t interface. Everything is where you expect it to be. Nothing is hidden behind stupid flashy menus. Deduct a little because of the fact it's not a responsive design for use on mobile devices.
Of course, the Billion designs tend to be a bit bland. But I buy for functionality, not whether it looks nice. I am not going to be staring at it all day!
I heard Zyxel have some nice devices, with some of the better ones having an internal noise filter. Might try them one day.
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Thanks for a detailed response.
Most of which I agree with too. The WiFi I found to be a bit weak compared to other devices. Not sure if it's due to the design or what.
When I had adsl, my billion was the best purchase I had in years.
They seem to take a bit longer to take out new equipment compared to other manufacturers. That's probably a good thing really as they seem to thoroughly test them before hand.
I've got a Zyxel 1312-b10a modem and it seems pretty good.
I just need a good reliable router to compliment it although considering trying a mesh setup now.
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The Billion devices that have internal antennas are a bit pants when it comes to WiFi. Though while the speed and range not be so fantastic, I've never really had any stability issues with the 8800NL (the first version) and it's usually good enough for a few wireless devices. I know the 8800AXL R2 has pleasant WiFi from experience (external antennas), and I imagine the same could be said about their much more expensive 8900AX-1600 R2 and 8900AX-2400 models.
I have opted for a two-device setup using the 8800NL as a modem and 8800AXL R2 as a router (just so I can make changes to firmware and configs without disrupting the DSL). Though I am currently having a few issues with my 8800AXL R2 at the moment with "random" reboots and am waiting for a response from their engineers (it's not an easy to diagnose problem as nothing gets logged on the remote syslog server when it does it). Although in a previous situation I have been sent firmware to fix an issue, which is nice.
As for Zyxel, I've never used one. But it's the B10A versions that has the filter built in if I am correct. Someone here with one would know for sure anyway.
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That was also my experience with billion in the past. The engineering team actually took an interest in issues that people reported.
The GUI on the billion was way too over complex for me but I only look for a fairly simple setup and lack the knowledge of what everything does. It is good to know that everything is there if you want it though.
You are correct, the b10a does indeed have a filter on it. I seem to gain a bout of DS speed but maybe lose a bit of US.
My netgear D7000 gave me a good sync speed too but after 3 years it's started locking up after a few weeks which caused errors on my line and banding, hence why I moved the modem duties to the Zyxel.
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I chose Firebrick, ridiculously expensive but would find it difficult now to live with anything else. I am addicted. [Do not flame me. :-) Answers to all responses are: I know, I know.]
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I also forgot to mention the fact that with Billion I've always had full telnet/ssh access (which is a huge bonus) without having to locate "modded" firmware. And SNR tweaking is available for those who want to live on the edge, even in the web interface. I know some manufacturers have devices which also have telnet/ssh easily accessible, but others require custom firmware or debug modes to enable.
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And Billion have had very well respected modems too.
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My go to was Asus for a router but I've since moved to PfSense. Although I guess that's just router software (unless you buy one of the Netgate products). Currently have it running on one of the Qotom mini PC's. Admittedly, I've no idea what half the options available in PfSense do. Seems to work just fine though with my fairly basic config.
I use a 4 box setup:
Draytek Vigor 130
PfSense on the Qotom mini Pc
A TP-Link POE 8 Port switch
A TP-Link EAP 225v3 AP, although I have a Ubiquiti AP coming tomorrow to try
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How often do you need to buy these things to even have a go to manufacturer?
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I chose to replace my two APU based pfSense firewalls with Netgate ones (a SG-2220 and a SG-4860).
Very expensive in comparison to alternative hardware, but I regarded it as a contribution to pfSense development.
I use separate WiFi access points and VDSL modems.
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ZyXEL and Billion and Asus for routers.
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DrayTek, Ubiquiti (EdgeRouter) or finally now the Firebrick.
I'm currently using my two DrayTek Vigor routers (2860Vac and 2862) as bridged modems primarily, though the 2860Vac is also using VoIP as it's connected to my house phones via an RJ11 cable, which then connects to the Firebrick's SIP server which then finally connects to AAISP's SIP server.
Another interesting fact, my UPS will maintain the following hardware for up to around 6 hours on battery:
- LED Light Strip (plugged in via USB to the FireBrick FB2900 if there's a power cut)
- Firebrick FB2900 (acting as a router and SIP server for VoIP)
- DrayTek Vigor 2860Vac (acting as a bridged modem and for VoIP, BT Advanced Z is connected to it via RJ11)
- DrayTek Vigor 2862 (acting as a bridged modem)
- Ubiquiti EdgeSwitch 16 150W
- Ubiquiti Amplifi HD (for wifi)
- Synology NAS RS815+ (for monitoring my VDSL2 stats on both lines and taking automated action if errors become excessive or minimal, recording the back garden and some internal cameras downstairs, and for being a network drive I guess)
- BT Advanced Z Base Station (DECT phones)
I know this because yesterday night I had a power cut and the battery estimated time on the front panel said between 5 to 6 hours :).
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I seem to have forgotten about the existence of DrayTek! I did once fancy one... until I saw the price tags, even for older models! Though I am pretty sure DrayTek has a lot more comprehensive features compared to Billion, and their hardware is just as solid (I am not sure if I approve of their use of Lantiq, but I probably wouldn't use it as a modem anyway). Billion is typically positioned for domestic and SOHO, though I think DrayTek is more SME.
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I always rated Billion a very good router as I got Billion 8800NL and always very good on my FTTC since 2014. But the wireless are a pant thought. I am now switched over to a better wireless router Zyxel XMG3927-B50A (also VDSL2/G.fast support on it is a bonus for future G.fast).
I do believe that both routers got a broadcom chipset on it.
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I used Billion for quite a while, but would now prefer Zyxel because it's ADSL performance is better. I can't really say I've seen a difference in wireless coverage. However both are pretty crude in terms of actual routing function. Being used to Cisco at work I was getting a bit fed up with the limits of both, and as a novelty I'm going to give Mikrotik a try.
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Have used a variety in the past, but for the last two or three years have stuck with a s/h Billion 7800N and 8800NL (v1), rotated every few months.Love them both! :)
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I did try one of the MikroTik routers but I found it a bit excessive for how I intended to use my connection. Furthermore, the amount of effort required to configure it and keep it maintained was not looking worthwhile.
I've switched to Zyxel, but only because of G.fast CPE availability. Otherwise, I was still relatively happy with my Billion 8800AXL R2 despite the rough start I had with it due to a firmware issue, and the lack of 1500 byte MTU (PPPoE?, though not massively important).
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For quite some time I was using various Huawei devices (thanks to asbokid) but as of early 2017 I have exclusively used a ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A.
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I too am still using the Zyxel 1312-B10A for my modem. It's a great device!!
I've since moved onto the edgerouter X with one Unifi AC lite access point. The setup seems pretty solid actually.
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I for some reason try to avoid netgear, dont know why, the hashed up superhub for VM might be a factor.
For DSL I primarily pick a device to use as a modem based on cost and chipset. There needs to be a requirement for bridge mode which pretty much every DSL router is capable off. If I was getting one for use as a router/modem combi it probably would not be zyxel as the UI I dont like, billion has a nice UI so would possibly be picked but for value for money in terms of hardware spec not as good as zyxel. However I do like to split into a multi box configuration so each device does the task its most suited for. So DSL router in bridge mode.
For an actual router, I have got into the habit of using open source, has professional features, has an active user base and is well supported. So candidate projects would be asuswrt-merlin, openwrt, pfsense and opnsense primarily, but there is other options as well. Chinese suppliers seem to be the best one's for things like pfsense e.g. qotom devices which are NUC type units.
Right now I am using a zyxel for my DSL modem (billion 8800nl I may switch back to), qotom for my pfsense firewall, and an old asus rt-n16 for one of my openwrt managed switch's, and an TPLINK archer C7 for the other openwrt managed switch (this is also my wifi access point). I started using managed switches so I can use vlan's and have a proper guest wifi network.
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I would quite like to try a Synology router. I think the UI looks quite intriguing.
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If I had to choose a manufacturer, I quite liked my Asus Dark Knight router that I used a while ago.
Nowadays though, I do not have an off the shelf router...
- Unifi Ubiquiti Access Point covering wireless access
- HG612's on each FTTC circuit coming into the house... I tried ZyXEL modems, but was really disappointed with the performance.
- Routing is performed by a pfSense virtual machine that is connected to both WAN's and load balances. Multithreaded downloads use both circuits. Certain devices only use one circuit at a time, for example, Sky box is always directed to Sky FTTC. There's no benefit for dual WAN for this, so why use my AAISP quota for that?
However, going forward I am looking at building my own router with Gentoo. This is more for my own learning than anything else, plus it'd be cool to say I've truly built my own router from the ground up.
NB: These devices that everyone calls "Routers" - it is really a misnomer. Often these devices actually are Modems, Routers, Switches, and Wireless AP's all in one, yet they are all called Routers. It grinds my gears as a Network Engineer because I am used to dealing with a single box that just does "Routing"... :)
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I think it is just easier for the majority to bundle everything under the one name of a router but I can see the frustration.
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Well, how else would you call it. I do agree that router is the best name for one of those though.
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I did try one of the MikroTik routers but I found it a bit excessive for how I intended to use my connection. Furthermore, the amount of effort required to configure it and keep it maintained was not looking worthwhile.
I've only just got my Mikrotik router so not yet had a play with it. I'm already using a Mikrotik router for 4G, but it's only got a very basic configuration so far. The CLI isn't what I'm used to, so will see how I get on. What I need is some basic routing functions for the router, like connecting different subnets and failover between the DSL and 4G. On the 4G router I'd like to configure some prioritisation on upload. I have to say Mikrotik QoS terminology looks very strange.
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NB: These devices that everyone calls "Routers" - it is really a misnomer. Often these devices actually are Modems, Routers, Switches, and Wireless AP's all in one, yet they are all called Routers. It grinds my gears as a Network Engineer because I am used to dealing with a single box that just does "Routing"... :)
A certain grumpy, old, black cat has to agree with you.
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I quite like the router I bought about 10-15 years ago, branded ‘Mac Allister”.
Cheap as chips from B&Q on a spur of the moment impulse. Pretty basic but it does the job, has enabled me to dabble in carpentry, and to make some house-name signs for the end of the drive. ::)
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I for some reason try to avoid netgear, dont know why, the hashed up superhub for VM might be a factor.
The DG834x range were great for ADSL/2+ connections, have very fond memories of my DG834GT but all I have now from them is an 8 port switch. The netgear R7800 is from what I have read one of the best off the shelf boxes for OpenWRT these days.
As for the rest of the kit, Zyxel modems of course! Have 2 1312s 1 8324 & a 3925. All are excellent as VDSL modems, having tried HG612s HG635 billion 8800nl, none come close to the sync speed on my huawei cab.
For routing I have an HP 610 plus thin client (2x1.6ghz AMD bobcat cores, 8GB of ram) with an intel dual gigabit nic, running proxmox VE. Sounds like overkill but I scored 2 of these with power supplies for £30 each. Uses < 20W and has OpenWRT running in a VM, along with several others doing light webserving, monitoring etc. Great to have an always on box that doesnt use much power that you can fire up VMs or LXC containers on as and when.
Other than that a BT homehub 5A running openwrt as a wireless AP and the afformentioned netgear switch.
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:)
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IMHO it really depends on what features you're looking for in a router though I wouldn't place too much emphasis on looks, as you should be looking at whats under the hood. A bit like Miele home appliances - not the best looking but arguably the best out there for quality & perfomance.
All router manufacturers have strong & weak points, for example Billion make arguably the best all-in-one-routers yet their standalone routers are nothing special (do they even exist anymore?)
Draytek routers are very business orientated with some great features, yet they use low-mid spec wifi radios (nothing above 3x3) meaning an external wifi AP is a must if wifi is important.
Asus & Netgear are probably the best standalone router brands for geeks/nerds who want a ton of features with very nice hardware specs, this is down to fact that you can install third party firmware such as DD-WRT/Merlin/Voxel on many Asus or Netgear routers. However their high end routers cost an arm & a leg and IMHO have more bugs than other brands, especially Asus. Support from Asus & netgear is utter garbage, however many will visit SNB forums for any issues.
TP Link & Linksys routers aren't as feature rich as other brands but they are arguably the best value for money routers, with nice hardware specs. They also tend to have far fewer bugs than Asus or Netgear.
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Ironically my expensive acquired asus ac68 had to be put aside when I decided I wanted to use VLAN's, asuswrt doesnt support VLAN's (officially), and openwrt is a dud on broadcom wifi chipsets.
Right now the ac68 is resting on the front of my archer C7 holding it in place, the C7 is so light that the lan cables at the back of it drag it off the desk. It also helps to hide the uglyness of the C7 since it looks as cheap as it cost. :)
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I chose to use separate devices for each task.
An Opeanreach-supplied HG612 modem
An Intel NUC-style PC running pfSense for routing
Multiple Netgear ProSafe managed switches for switching
Multiple UniFi access points for WLAN
The advantages are numerous. I’ve got the best modem for my line, full control over my internal network’s behaviour and flexibility in my WLAN layout.
I can upgrade parts independently, and even dramatic changes like switching to Virgin Media or (perhaps one day) getting FTTP will have little bearing on my home network.
Of course, managing pfSense and UniFi stuff requires a fair bit of networking knowledge, so I’d never suggest that my approach would be suitable for all!
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I agree completely with kitizen displaced.
I have
4 x ZyXel VMG1312-B10A ADSL modems, which are all running our own kitizen johnson’s custom firmware,
a ZyXEL switch,
a Firebrick FB2700 router and an FB2500 as backup,
an HP switch (as main LAN switch),
3 x ZyXel WAPs
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My man! (Displaced)
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I now like keeping modem, WAP and router /switch separate and since using self-build opnSense / pfsense box would not go back. I have used / tried a lot of one-box solutions, here is my personal summary :
Quite like : Ubiquiti, Zyxel, Draytek, Billion, Fritz!box
Meh : Asus, Netgear, most other stuff
Horrible : TP-Link
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I've just bought a Unifi 8port-150W switch for my setup. I'm looking to add a couple of PoE cameras along with another access point to extend wireless to my garden and garage.
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I now like keeping modem, WAP and router /switch separate and since using self-build opnSense / pfsense box would not go back. I have used / tried a lot of one-box solutions, here is my personal summary :
Quite like : Ubiquiti, Zyxel, Draytek, Billion, Fritz!box
Meh : Asus, Netgear, most other stuff
Horrible : TP-Link
Totally agree with the ones in your Quite like. But why is TP-Link horrible? I have never used any TP-Link routers but the only powerline kits I have been using seem fine.
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I have used a TP link switch which was suspect and TP LINK outdoor WAPs that were rock solid.
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Totally agree with the ones in your Quite like. But why is TP-Link horrible? I have never used any TP-Link routers but the only powerline kits I have been using seem fine.
Similarly, I’ve had no problem at all with my three Netgear GS108Ev3s. Reliably shift 1Gbit/sec through all ports. Decent web interfaces and configurable enough to ensure stuff like multicast and igmp work as desired.
I’m tempted to replace my 108Es with PoE-capable units - mainly to reduce wall-warts for my UniFi access points and a few Raspberry Pis.
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That is a good point about POE switches. I do have a couple of standalone PoE injector bricks which I have never even got around to using for my ZyXEL WAPs. When I used to use a lot of TP-Link WAPs as well, the TP-Link WAPs had come with their own tiny injectors and that was the only time I had used PoE. Ought to use it more. PoE switches with a fair number of ports and good power ratings start to get very expensive and the total heat output can be crazy if you indeed fully populated the thing. The cost of a POE switch per port compared to standalone POE injector bricks for £40 or maybe much less money for cheapo dubious ones is not good as far as I have seen. Crystal ball required by the designer; if say for example you have a maximum of 8 PoE ports on the device but only own 3 devices, then the designer has to engineer it for 8 and that times 8 cost lands on you but you are only half using it. And god help you as far as managing all the heat goes if you really did max out a PoE switch fully populating it; then you would find out what you have to do about all that heat and find out whether the thing really can handle the stress.
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Totally agree with the ones in your Quite like. But why is TP-Link horrible? I have never used any TP-Link routers but the only powerline kits I have been using seem fine.
TP-Link is fine for dumb stuff but for more complex stuff they release buggy firmware and due to the rapid release of newer models don't support updates and bug fixes, even on their "premium" models.
My feeling is that their marketing is based on offering good value for money and features but not backed up with good support , this has been my experience.
Worst offender for me was the TL-ER5120v2 router I bought, very crashy, no support and supposedly "enterprise". Have also had issues with my M7350 freezing and also M5350 and the N600 I used needed a reboot every 2 days, mind you I also had pretty bad software issues with the Asus RT- AC68U.
Over the years I have learned that firmware support and updates trump cutting edge features most of the time. One of the things I like about my Ubiquiti stuff and also opensource like pfSense is the continual support and updates, Zyxel pretty good too
C
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Chunkers makes a very good point.
The amazing eternal free support and eternal software updates that you get with Firebrick routers is worth a lot. Customers have also asked for sensible features and they were delivered, if memory serves. I had a Firebrick tweaked by lightning and just got a free replacement unit straight away when I made an enquiry about the cost of repairs for my insurance.
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Crystal ball required by the designer; if say for example you have a maximum of 8 PoE ports on the device but only own 3 devices, then the designer has to engineer it for 8 and that times 8 cost lands on you but you are only half using it.
Larger switches are often made without enough PoE power for all ports at full power. Partly this is because lots of devices only use a fraction of the full power specified in the standard.
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…a fraction would be sensible of course, agreed.