Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: atkinsong on July 01, 2018, 11:10:28 AM

Title: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: atkinsong on July 01, 2018, 11:10:28 AM
Over the last 2 weeks I have been experimenting with the ability to adjust the target SNR with my Draytek2760 on my ECI Cab.

A weeks running at the standard 6db target produces the following results:-

Synch speed 46.5Mb, average daily ES 7.

A weeks running at a 5db target produces:-

sync speed 49.4Mb, average daily ES 25.

A weeks running at a 4.5db target produces:-

sync speed 51.5Mb, average daily ES 33.

So, a healthy improvement in sync with a modest increase in error rate, and I am in control of the target rather than DLM.

I have previously tried all the well recommended Broadcom based modems, resulting in a typical increase in sync of 2 to 3 Mb but with a vastly inferior error rate of over 200 es daily.
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: Ixel on July 01, 2018, 11:20:46 AM
I did this on one of my lines until it has unfortunately recently developed some kind of fault which isn't showing up on the remote tests. It's fine as long as you appear to have a cleanish line.
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: Adam86 on July 01, 2018, 11:45:10 AM
I didn't think it was possible to adjust this on VDSL?

Would one be able to do this using a HG612 connected to an ECI Cabinet then?
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: Ixel on July 01, 2018, 12:37:39 PM
I didn't think it was possible to adjust this on VDSL?

Would one be able to do this using a HG612 connected to an ECI Cabinet then?

It can't be done on modems with a Broadcom chipset, only the Lantiq/Infineon chipsets or Mediatek.
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: Adam86 on July 01, 2018, 01:07:58 PM
Ah, learn something new every day :-)
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: Weaver on July 04, 2018, 10:36:53 AM
One can do such SNRM tweaking with Broadcom kit too, if using ADSL, as you probably know.

Another example of synergy between the chipsets in modems at the two ends. If I remember correctly, Kitz advised caution about this basic idea though.
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: j0hn on July 04, 2018, 03:02:13 PM
Another example of synergy between the chipsets in modems at the two ends.

I don't think it needs to be an ECI (Infineon/Lantiq) DSLAM.
The Lantiq modem chipsets can also tweak vdsl2 snr on Broadcom DSLAMs. I believe it even works with retx enabled.
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: Jon21 on July 10, 2018, 01:40:28 PM
Is there a max number of errored seconds before DLM kicks in? I'm currently getting about 5.5 ES/hr, so 132 a day, which I believe is decent. This is with the standard 6db target, although it's currently sitting at 5db (although that could be anywhere between 5 and 5.9db, as the stats from the Vigor 130, only seem to give whole numbers). Tempted to lower the target SNR.
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: Ixel on July 10, 2018, 03:00:38 PM
Is there a max number of errored seconds before DLM kicks in? I'm currently getting about 5.5 ES/hr, so 132 a day, which I believe is decent. This is with the standard 6db target, although it's currently sitting at 5db (although that could be anywhere between 5 and 5.9db, as the stats from the Vigor 130, only seem to give whole numbers). Tempted to lower the target SNR.

It depends what DLM policy your connection has been setup on, this varies for some ISP's. It's either going to be 2880, 1440 or 720 ES (however using MTBE based on uptime).
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: Jon21 on July 10, 2018, 04:09:54 PM
Not sure, itíll be whatever A&A have set it to.
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: Ixel on July 10, 2018, 04:16:08 PM
Not sure, itíll be whatever A&A have set it to.

AAISP should be on the 'speed' policy, which is 2880 ES.
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: hushcoden on July 10, 2018, 06:42:07 PM
My SNR Margin is currently 17 dB and I was thinking to lower the SNR, but will I gain anything at all considering that I am connected at 39,993/9,995 on a 40/10 line ? I am sure not, right ?
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: Ixel on July 10, 2018, 06:46:11 PM
My SNR Margin is currently 17 dB and I was thinking to lower the SNR, but will I gain anything at all considering that I am connected at 39,993/9,995 on a 40/10 line ? I am sure not, right ?

You will not gain anything by reducing or increasing the target SNRM offset with an SNRM of 17 dB and the fact you're unable to sync higher than 40 megabits due to the package speed limit. All it will do is likely adjust the attainable rate for the downstream however.
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: hushcoden on July 10, 2018, 06:53:42 PM
Over the last 2 weeks I have been experimenting with the ability to adjust the target SNR with my Draytek2760 on my ECI Cab.

A weeks running at the standard 6db target produces the following results:-

Synch speed 46.5Mb, average daily ES 7.

A weeks running at a 5db target produces:-

sync speed 49.4Mb, average daily ES 25.

A weeks running at a 4.5db target produces:-

sync speed 51.5Mb, average daily ES 33.

So, a healthy improvement in sync with a modest increase in error rate, and I am in control of the target rather than DLM.

I have previously tried all the well recommended Broadcom based modems, resulting in a typical increase in sync of 2 to 3 Mb but with a vastly inferior error rate of over 200 es daily.
Sorry, but probably I am missing something: from your signature your line is a 80/20 and your actual max speed is 52Mb/s ?
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: atkinsong on July 10, 2018, 09:01:12 PM
Yes, you are correct.
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: Jon21 on July 11, 2018, 02:01:33 PM
I've applied a -30 offset which has given a 3db margin. Gone from 62.7 to 71.6Mb sync. Will have to keep an eye on the ES but they seem similar to a 6db margin at the moment.
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: Ixel on July 11, 2018, 02:32:46 PM
Just to note, be careful of adjusting the SNRM offset by too much in one go. I believe it can encourage DLM to apply banding if it detects a significant change in SNRM in a certain timeframe. One of the patents mentioned an SNRM variation of 4 dB, which I think is a good guide to go with I believe. My advice is to avoid adjusting it by more than +/- 3 dB in 24 hours, unless you have a somewhat varying SNRM in which case be more cautious.
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: j0hn on July 11, 2018, 10:34:21 PM
I wouldn't worry about that in the slightest.
I've seen dozens of lines on mdws that varied by 10dB+ all day long and never seen DLM act on this.

I've applied caps on my line making the SNRM jump from 3dB to 20dB and back again many times without problem. As long as MTBR isn't breached.

I've seen many screenshots of DLM caution counters, never seen anything SNRM related.

I'd be surprised if DLM even recorded the current SNRM.
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: Ixel on July 11, 2018, 10:46:02 PM
There's a lot we don't know about DLM to be fair. For example, my connection was recently banded after experiencing a few re-syncs in a short timeframe and what must've been a fairly significant SNR variation during those re-syncs. ES/SES were well under the threshold. The number of retrains should've also been under the threshold but I guess there was something DLM didn't like. It's possible that DLM ignores SNR variation while the connection is 'SHOWTIME' but if it changes between re-syncs then it might factor that in.
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: Bowdon on July 16, 2018, 04:06:22 PM
I was just looking on an FTTP thread in another place and noticed we ECI people might be still at a disadvantage when we finally get FTTP deployed.

They were commenting about the higher FTTP speeds on the dsl checker showing up, and Paul said that his checker was still only showing 300 down 50 up. Then someone else responded that might be because he's on an ECI FTTP deployment "That's all it will ever go to for the foreseeable!".

Later in the thread, j0hn83 said;
Quote
OpenReach used both the same vendors for the FTTP kit, both OLT's at the exchange and ONT's in customer premises.

They also have ECI/Huawei L2S's
ECI L2S can only do 1Gb GEA Cablelinks but the Huawei L2S can have 10Gb GEA cablelinks.

This is why some only see 330/50.

Almost every piece of ECI kit is inferior to the Huawei kit or it has an issue being upgraded on some way. It's not just the FTTC DSLAMs that are useless.

edit: to add, I'm sure there's also an issue where ECI OLT/ONT's can't do fva

I guess the question is, how big of a job would OR have to do to allow ECI FTTP people to be able to get above 330/50 ?

I wonder what the actual contract OR have with ECI states. Because nearly every upgrade that OR as attempted with ECI as failed, or OR aren't confident of rolling it out across the network. I would have thought OR would have had printed about future proof upgrades.
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: j0hn on July 18, 2018, 11:53:43 PM
For info I was replying to...

Quote
Thought ECI and Huawei brands only applied to the FTTC cabinets, not FTTP deployments. I got the impression that the 1Gbps rollout was a gradual one

My answer was really for those currently on FTTP and connected to the ECI exchange equipment in question.
It doesn't affect those currently getting FTTC on an ECI cabinet.

Openreach recently picked Nokia and Huawei to provide future FTTP equipment.
If FTTP gets rolled out to those currently on ECI FTTC then it would be on Nokia or Huawei FTTP equipment at the exchange.

Linky (http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/f/4589756-fttp-ordered-previously-a-not-spot.html?vc=1)
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: S.Stephenson on August 06, 2018, 04:06:18 PM
When I saw this I thought what the hell and went and bought some Vigor 2760s.

Managed to get my line up from 68 to 78 with a offset of -30.

Even managed to get my rubbish Sky line from 51 to 62, had to bridge mode that one DCHP stuff is too complex for me.
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: Ixel on August 06, 2018, 05:49:24 PM
As long the errored seconds don't become excessive then it's great. Some lines will cope, some won't.
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: Jon21 on September 07, 2018, 03:52:21 PM
I've applied a -30 offset which has given a 3db margin. Gone from 62.7 to 71.6Mb sync. Will have to keep an eye on the ES but they seem similar to a 6db margin at the moment.

Noticed that both downstream and upstream attainable had increased on Tuesday so resynced and got a small increase in sync rate. Downstream attenuation has also dropped from 20 to 19dB, not sure why as nothing has changed as far as I know. Also noticed that FE ES count doesn't seem to reset even after leaving the modem off for a bit.

  ---------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A/B/C) -----------
   Running Mode            :      17A       State                : SHOWTIME
   DS Actual Rate          : 73505000 bps   US Actual Rate       : 15979000 bps
   DS Attainable Rate      : 72336168 bps   US Attainable Rate   : 15714006 bps
   DS Path Mode            :        Fast    US Path Mode         :        Fast
   DS Interleave Depth     :        1       US Interleave Depth  :        1
   NE Current Attenuation  :       19 dB    Cur SNR Margin       :        3  dB
   DS actual PSD           :     6. 7 dB    US actual PSD        :    14. 2  dB
   NE CRC Count            :      684       FE CRC Count         :     3040
   NE ES Count             :      470       FE  ES Count         :     2881
   Xdsl Reset Times        :        0       Xdsl Link  Times     :        1
   ITU Version[0]          : b5004946       ITU Version[1]       : 544e0000
   VDSL Firmware Version   : 05-07-06-0D-01-07   [with Vectoring support]
   Power Management Mode   : DSL_G997_PMS_L0
   Test Mode               : DISABLE
  -------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
   Far Current Attenuation :       27 dB    Far SNR Margin       :        6  dB
   CO ITU Version[0]       : b5004946       CO ITU Version[1]    : 544ed086
   DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR    : < IFTN >
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: ktz392837 on September 07, 2018, 04:35:52 PM
Downstream attenuation has also dropped from 20 to 19dB, not sure why as nothing has changed as far as I know.
I could swear my line in summer (hotter) has a higher attenuation than winter (colder).  When we had weeks of hot weather my attenuation was 0.2db higher than it is now.  When winter comes I suspect my attenuation will drop another 0.2-0.4db if past years are anything to go on.
Title: Re: ECI Cabs not all bad news.
Post by: dee.jay on September 14, 2018, 08:21:32 AM
I could swear my line in summer (hotter) has a higher attenuation than winter (colder).  When we had weeks of hot weather my attenuation was 0.2db higher than it is now.  When winter comes I suspect my attenuation will drop another 0.2-0.4db if past years are anything to go on.

I can attest to this too - during the winter months over previous years, if there had been a powercut - my modem would often come back at 79999 and stay there for 1/2 months and even resync at that with no problems.