Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Hardware => Topic started by: Weaver on June 17, 2018, 02:53:30 AM
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Just out of interest, has anyone tried a Draytek Vigor 130 on VDSL2? I would just like to know how they perform. When I briefly tried one of the Vigor models - probably a Vigor 130, but can't be exactly sure I’m afraid - it seemed to be a less aggressive performer on my ultra-long ADSL2 line, giving a slower downstream sync than the DLink DSL-320B-Z1, which I was usually using as a reference at the time.
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If I remember correctly the Vigor 130 has an Infinion chipset which is not as suitable as Broadcom modems such as the HG612, ZyXEL and Billion models. A lower sync on ADSL2+ and VDSL2 has been seen on various lines tested on the Kitz forum.
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Indeed, that is what I thought. At the time I tested one, my exchange had a 20CN TI DSLAM. Now it is 21CN and Broadcom kit.
I wonder how much of a deficit there might be compared to Broadcom devices.
Is there any synergy available to Lantau/Infineon CPE if you have a matching Infineon DSLAM ? (If there even is such a thing?)
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I think our leader Kitz is on an ECI/Infineon cab and has tested various modems when reviewing them for the Kitz site. I do remember her saying that even if it was an ECI cabinet the Broadcom chipsets performed the best on her cab.
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It can be better if it matches, but those 3 modems are the best so it doesn't apply to them. In comparison I think I've read Lantiq performs even worse on Huawei. The broadcom 63168 is a really good chip so no surprise if it performs as well as the top Lantiqs on ECI's.
Delay is a different story, Lantiq on ECI has 2 to 4 miliseconds less [don't know Huawei]. But obviously not worth it.
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Thanks for that, Spring. I remember now that you have an ECI DSLAM.
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One chipset won't necessarily fit for all lines. Some might find Broadcom works better on their line, while others might find Lantiq/Infineon works better on their line.
In my case, I'm on an ECI cabinet (sadly) but I've found that Lantiq/Infineon produce lower error rates and slightly less latency (1 to 2 milliseconds lower) compared to if I use Broadcom. I use a DrayTek Vigor 2860Vac and DrayTek Vigor 2862 for my two connections. I can't say I've noticed much difference in sync rate, but that could be one of many factors that vary between different lines. Lantiq/Infineon tend to have R:16 on downstream fastpath whereas Broadcom tend to have R:0, difference being that it's a small amount of error correction basically. I'm working on hopefully resolving an issue with the 2862's telnet/web interface freezing after a few days of my program fetching the DSL stats from the router, but other than that both devices work perfectly fine. I've tried a ZyXeL VMG1312-B10A on my line but sadly it's hit and miss with error rates. I've had occasions where I re-sync and suddenly downstream errored seconds go through the roof for no reason. Latency is also a bit higher.
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Did you ever try a Vigor 130, Ixel ?
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I've tried a ZyXeL VMG1312-B10A on my line but sadly it's hit and miss with error rates.
So you got R:0 with it?
Does this match what you said about R:16? Or doesn't count if on DS G.INP?
VMG1312-B10A / ECI
Stats recorded 17 Jun 2018 10:09:16
DSLAM type / SW version: IFTN:0xb206 (178.6) / v0xb206
Modem/router firmware: AnnexA version - A2pv6F039v.d26a
DSL mode: VDSL2 Profile 17a
Status: Showtime
Uptime: 0 hour 9 min 51 sec
Resyncs: 0 (since 17 Jun 2018 10:09:11)
Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB): 10.5 0.0
Signal attenuation (dB): Not available on VDSL2
Connection speed (kbps): 44880 3455
SNR margin (dB): 25.4 19.5
Power (dBm): -15.1 -15.3
Interleave depth: 1 55
INP: 44.00 2.00
G.INP: Enabled Not enabled
Vectoring status: 5 (VECT_UNCONFIGURED)
RSCorr/RS (%): 0.0000 0.0000
RSUnCorr/RS (%): 0.0000 0.0000
ES/hour: 0 0
adsl info --stats
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 35060 Kbps, Downstream rate = 109838 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 3455 Kbps, Downstream rate = 44880 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 25.4 19.5
Attn(dB): 10.5 0.0
Pwr(dBm): -15.1 -15.3
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: -6 432
B: 235 17
M: 1 1
T: 0 1
R: 14 16
S: 0.0000 0.1569
L: 11951 1734
D: 1 55
I: 250 34
N: 250 34
Q: 8 0
V: 1 0
RxQueue: 34 0
TxQueue: 17 0
G.INP Framing: 18 0
G.INP lookback: 17 0
RRC bits: 0 24
Bearer 1
MSGc: 90 -6
B: 0 0
M: 2 0
T: 2 0
R: 16 0
S: 10.6667 0.0000
L: 24 0
D: 1 0
I: 32 0
N: 32 0
Q: 0 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 0 0
TxQueue: 0 0
G.INP Framing: 0 0
G.INP lookback: 0 0
RRC bits: 0 0
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 0 34293
OHFErr: 0 0
RS: 14023496 2134904
RSCorr: 5 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Bearer 1
OHF: 36731 0
OHFErr: 0 0
RS: 220016 0
RSCorr: 0 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Retransmit Counters
rtx_tx: 725033 0
rtx_c: 0 0
rtx_uc: 0 0
G.INP Counters
LEFTRS: 0 0
minEFTR: 44874 0
errFreeBits: 403698 0
Bearer 0
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 50921341 0
Data Cells: 1330 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
Bearer 1
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 0 0
Data Cells: 0 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 26 26
AS: 591
Bearer 0
INP: 44.00 2.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 0 2
PER: 0.00 17.24
OR: 0.01 203.20
AgR: 44951.38 3657.71
Bearer 1
INP: 2.50 0.00
INPRein: 2.50 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 16.06 0.01
OR: 47.81 0.01
AgR: 47.81 0.01
Bitswap: 5/5 0/0
Total time = 10 min 17 sec
FEC: 5 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 26 26
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 10 min 17 sec
FEC: 5 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 26 26
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 10 min 17 sec
FEC: 5 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 26 26
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Since Link time = 9 min 49 sec
FEC: 5 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
NTR: mipsCntAtNtr=0 ncoCntAtNtr=0
>
adsl info --pbParams
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 35060 Kbps, Downstream rate = 109838 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 3455 Kbps, Downstream rate = 44880 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (6,31) (882,1193) (1984,2770)
DS: (33,857) (1218,1959) (2795,4083)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (6,31) (882,1193) (1984,2770)
DS: (41,857) (1218,1959) (2795,4083)
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate: 35060 kbps 109838 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power: - 15.3 dBm - 15.1 dBm
====================================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 U4 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 0.1 10.2 15.2 N/A N/A 6.1 12.8 20.7
Signal Attenuation(dB): 0.1 10.1 15.0 N/A N/A 6.0 12.6 20.7
SNR Margin(dB): 23.8 20.1 19.1 N/A N/A 25.4 25.4 25.4
TX Power(dBm): -17.9 -19.3 -28.3 N/A N/A 12.3 8.0 6.9
>
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So you got R:0 with it?
Does this match what you said about R:16? Or doesn't count if on DS G.INP?
VMG1312-B10A / ECI
If you're on G.INP, not fastpath, then it doesn't count. Traditional interleaving, not G.INP, on FTTC in this country usually applies something like R:10 on Broadcom devices too, but when it's fastpath on the downstream, again not G.INP, it will usually be R:0.
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Just fitted a Draytek Vigor 130 onto my line in place of a Billion 8800NL R2 that I had for a year. The cabinet is ECI and using the Billion I only ever really had a sync of ~56 down and ~12 up through to ~53 down ~11 up much more recently (SNR being ~6 down and ~8 up).
Fitting the Draytek bumped the sync to ~57 down and ~19 up which matched a recent Openreach visit whereby his handheld device was getting similar sync (especially on the up side). Using the SNR Margin -25 I've now got it at ~66 down and ~19 up which I'm hoping will be stable (connection stats attached).
On a side note, the Draytek quick setup guide only mentions about connecting the modem to your pc if you wish to enter the setup otherwise just connecting the device to the DSL line and then to the router (still using the 8800NL R2). Seeing as the Draytek is still using the factory setting (admin etc.), is it advisable to change the password to get into the modem? I would have thought that this would have been part of the quick setup guide to change this regardless of connecting straight to the DSL line and router or not.
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The password for admin access to the modem? I would definitely change it. It may or may not be the case that the modem’s admin web UI is accessible from your main LAN _through_ your router, so for example PCs on the LAN could get at the modem and users could fiddle with it. Ditto with telnet access to your modems from the main LAN. With my Firebrick router, the modems were isolated from the main LAN, the router provided no access through to the modems’ admin interfaces, neither by telnet or to their web admin UI, so users could not tamper with the modems. But I set a strong password anyway because later on I did manage to work out how to get my router to provide admin access to the modems, so they were then exposed.
That is the great thing about the Vigors, in my experience, you just plug them in and they work, zero config.
The Vigor might be a great performer because its chipset is related to that in the particular FTTC cab. That is very true for my ZyXEL VMG 1312-B10A modems and my exchange’s DSLAM chipset: both are Broadcom-designed and both speak Broadcom’s PHY-R L2 retx protocol (gives greatly enhanced reliability, and in a sense more speed, as you can risk pushing it harder), which is more-or-less the same as G.INP for ADSL2(+).
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Thanks for the response Weaver.
I've skim read across several threads that don't seem to say how to get through access from the router to the modem.
Regards to the password, I am not too worried about internal access to the modem (I'm the only person on the internal network) but more so about external access to the modem. I will most likely change the default password soon but wasn't too sure if this would make any difference to the router connecting to the modem in general.
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No, you’re ok. Changing the admin password won’t affect internet access, the router talking to the modem. The router doesn’t use any password for that, and this password is just for humans gaining access only. You’re right - in your situation, there is no security issue anyway, even if there were visitors, guests on your LAN, as they can’t get through the router to the modem.
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Bit of a bump for this.
Is there any way to add a time delay to Vigor 130 when re-syncing/re-connecting the VDSL line?
I have a neighbouring FTTC line that when both mine and the other line are down due to say a power outage, cause problems for each other when they try to re-sync. If I could add a time delay (120 seconds for example) onto my re-sync then I am hoping this may help me in the short term.
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This is not answering your question, but thinking laterally, I wonder if a small UPS would be helpful. I have a DC UPS on order, hasn’t turned up yet. It’s designed as a replacement for a dc power brick, has a lion battery in it and is in the form of a three pin wall plug-type brick with a dc barrel socket on the end.
That way your modem wouldn’t go off at all.
What happens with your and your neighbour’s modems?
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For mine at least, without the other line connecting, I have seen the max attainable speeds peak above 87/26 and for short periods of time actual sync is max 79/20 before the other line knocks it off, queue a rinse and repeat of this until one or the other devices is turned off to allow one to sync first.
This has happened at least 3 or 4 times now and most of the time I am out of the house and can't intervene to stop the cycle. Within the next 12 hours after such episode, DLM puts on a massive amount of interleave in both directions and knocks my line down (at least I can confirm this - can't confirm much for the other line).
I believe the other line was on a 55/10 package a few months back and since an ISP change is now on an 80/20 package which is likely meaning that both lines now are pushing for max sync and crosstalk is now much more apparent on the attempt to re-sync. I think the other line was last syncing at ~56/10 and is probably under DLM now. I asked IDnet if they could request a remote DLM reset and it was carried out earlier this afternoon at 4pm. My line is back at ~66/20 and is stable. The issues only ever start after the power is lost.
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Sounds like a major design weakness then, and the need for a method of dealing with this clear problem case has been foreseen : https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,20906.msg363458.html#msg363458
So these are just rubbish modems then?
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That was an interesting link.
I don't think that the modem is rubbish, quite the opposite in comparison to the Billion 8800NL R2 that I had been using before.
I have something that I could try in adjusting the SNR value on the modem but will leave it for the time being.
Fired a ticket off to Draytek to ask if there is a way of delaying connection.
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No, I meant that their not foreseeing this important scenario is a big design cock-up, whereas presumably other designers have done the right thing and handled it specially as my Broadcom-based modems do extremely well under exactly these circumstances. I get an incredibly high sync rate due to the lack of crosstalk and then live happily ever after.
In your case, if the target SNRM is set too low for this less-than frequent circumstance, so that it’s enough to handle normal daily SNR variation but not enough to handle an exceptional SNR jump like this, then the target SNRM is just too low. If you don’t want to increase it then the modem should just resync and then all will be well afterwards. But DLM is then going nutty after one single sin. I wonder if changing the target SNRM either downwards or upwards will help. In my case, I could get DLM turned off, and indeed that DLM is now off on two of my lines because it was going insane, but turning it off is probably not a possibility for you.
Our very own Kitz is an expert on DLM. I am zero use because I’ve never even seen FTTC / VDSL2.
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Sorry, I get what you mean, yes it's possibly poor planning to account for such situations.
I've only just noticed you're on multiple ADSL lines.
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That was an interesting link.
I don't think that the modem is rubbish, quite the opposite in comparison to the Billion 8800NL R2 that I had been using before.
I have something that I could try in adjusting the SNR value on the modem but will leave it for the time being.
Fired a ticket off to Draytek to ask if there is a way of delaying connection.
I am curious to know if the Vigor has continued to perform well for you.
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Evening Vultura.
The Vigor has been fine for me (and my line on an ECI cab) in comparison to the Billion 8800NL R2.
After first swap, the upstream went from ~12mb to ~19mb. Downstream is impacted by crosstalk from another line but can reach the full ~80mb if the other line is off (but this is never going to happen long term).
I've now got my Vigor hooked up to a UPS so any stupid household issues tripping out the power etc. won't affect the line and result in DLM kicking in. Luckily, my line is well behaved and I've got Fastpath without any issues.
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Evening Vultura.
The Vigor has been fine for me (and my line on an ECI cab) in comparison to the Billion 8800NL R2.
After first swap, the upstream went from ~12mb to ~19mb. Downstream is impacted by crosstalk from another line but can reach the full ~80mb if the other line is off (but this is never going to happen long term).
I've now got my Vigor hooked up to a UPS so any stupid household issues tripping out the power etc. won't affect the line and result in DLM kicking in. Luckily, my line is well behaved and I've got Fastpath without any issues.
Thanks for reply.
Interesting results. Though I am likewise on ECI I am not sure if a 130 would help or not, a Zyxel that was recommended seems to sync lower than the Plusnet Hub One I was provided with to diagnose speed issues. Will need to think some more.
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The PlusNet Hub One is effectively a HomeHub 5a (Lantiq chipset). The Draytek Vigor 130 is also a Lantiq chipset.
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I'm on an ECI cabinet as well, but synched higher with a Zyxel than the previous HH5. Odd that.
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I'm on an ECI cabinet as well, but synched higher with a Zyxel than the previous HH5. Odd that.
Perhaps because some of the Zyxel units have common mode noise filtering?
The PlusNet Hub One is effectively a HomeHub 5a (Lantiq chipset). The Draytek Vigor 130 is also a Lantiq chipset.
I ha forgotten about that, shame it cannot be used as a modem only.
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Part of the reason some lines are syncing lower on the DrayTek is because the Infineon/Lantiq chipset enables FEC on the downstream even when fastpath. The Broadcom chipset doesn't do this on downstream when on fastpath. As a result it allows for a low level of error correction to be performed, but at the cost of a slight decrease in downstream sync/attainable rate.
I'm still using the 2860Vac and 2862 (bonded lines) via the FB2900. Both are SNRM at 9 dB currently as I prefer fastpath instead of traditional interleaving (INP and delay). I was running my own automated system which dynamically changed the downstream SNRM offset based on error statistics but I've made some changes to my equipment which means I need to reconfigure a few things to get it working again. Instead I've opted to just make both modems have a target SNRM of 9 dB. I've never used the 130.
As I'll be getting FTTP very soon (now showing as available on the checker at 1000/220) then I can say farewell to the troublesome ECI DSLAM :D, so won't have to worry about maintaining fastpath at the cost of some downstream speed anymore (low latency).
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I am considering getting a Draytek router to go along with the Vigor 130 as;
1) I'm not sure if my Billion 8800NL R2 is having issues (keeps appearing to loose connection but the Vigor still has DSL sync).
2) I want to be able to easily see the Vigor 130 line stats without having to individually connect directly to the modem (I gather that the Draytek routers have the ability to pickup the line stats from the Vigor 130 so this would be nice).
@Ixel do you recommend any particular router? I don't need WiFi so this can be discounted (or turned off if it has the function).
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Any router I'd recommend is likely to be outside of the general consumer budget or simplicity to setup.
However, I'd recommend either a Ubiquiti router (I used to use the EdgeRouter Pro 8), a Firebrick router (e.g. FB2900) or alternatively your own pfSense system.
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So you wouldn't recommend the Draytek 2862?
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What Ixel said.
I recommend the Firebrick routers, but they are scarily expensive (you get what you pay for). But config is a joy as it’s so logical. I love the fact that the config is in xml and thus plain text, you can import / export it and edit it with your favourite text editor. That way I can keep backups of older versions and difference them to see what I screwed up when I made changes. It’s a sophisticated and general firewall. It can drive multiple internet connections and bond them together if you get the ‘fully loaded’ software version. It can do failover to 3G/4G using a USB ‘dongle’.
The only problem I have found with it is that the 3G/4G usb dongle interface doesn’t seem to be 100% reliable for me, but that’s something I’m going to have to take up with the developers, except that I’m too ill and don’t have the energy to do so.
Any problems or bugs get fixed. You have unlimited forever stunning support free with a purchase. Andrews and Arnold sold me my two Firebricks and one was damaged following a lighting near-miss so they just replaced it for free! Event though in my opinion it wasn’t their fault; I think it was lightning- or EPR/GPR-related.
Anyway, I wrote up a rant ‘I love my Brick’ somewhere else here some years ago. Someone might be able to find my old threads, mini-review of the FB2500 and FB2700.
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£660 for the Firebrick fully loaded.
I'm ok for now :D.
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So you wouldn't recommend the Draytek 2862?
The DrayTek 2862 works fine, depends on your use case. Make sure it has ample throughput for your needs, for example (I'm sure it would though).
As for the FB2900, it's great. Support is excellent too, it turned out I apparently had a prototype when I discovered an incorrect fault being displayed on the interface regarding an LED. They sent me a new one for next day delivery, I copied my config over and sent the old one back. As easy as that.