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Computers & Hardware => PC Hardware => Topic started by: NewtronStar on May 18, 2018, 10:59:56 PM

Title: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: NewtronStar on May 18, 2018, 10:59:56 PM
Have lost touch with modern CPU Intel & AMD chip sets it has been 8 years since this PC was upgraded to ASUS socket LGA775 pentium E6700 3.2Ghz.

I am looking at a motherboard bundle AMD Ryzen 5 2400G not a gamer anymore but do need intensive GPU requirements from time to time is this any good, unfortunately just can't afford one of  those Intel I7 CPU's  :no:
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: burakkucat on May 18, 2018, 11:29:30 PM
I can't help with your query about a motherboard and AMD processor but just make the comment that in view of recent events, earlier this year regarding Intel processors, it is probably sensible to avoid all systems Intel based.
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: NewtronStar on May 19, 2018, 12:06:24 AM
Cheers BC, just don't know much about these security flaws I suppose if you go looking for them you'll find one if your the paranoid type have always found ms CPU windows based systems secure to me if you have a titter of wit.

Used to use AMD in the late 90's just don't know how they perform these days,but what I do see they are much cheaper, the I7 7700k price for just the CPU is £256 the AMD bundle with Mother Board and 8GB of Ram and CPU costs only £286  :)
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: Weaver on May 19, 2018, 02:58:06 AM
It depends on what you want in the way of performance and on what kind of software you will be using.

I would say that it is worth making sure the CPU in question has the instruction set you need so that it can run very recent software. Apart from that, slightly older processors have excellent performance.

As a programmer myself, if concerned with performance on very recent software or if writing your own software I would definitely stick with Intel, since they define developments in the x86-64 instruction set again nowadays.
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: Ronski on May 19, 2018, 08:29:23 AM
Ryzen CPUs are very good value for money, they still can't win on single core performance but are very good when it comes to multi threaded applications.

They are what caused Intel to release the new range of 6 core and up CPUs.

Do you need integrated graphics, would a higher core count be more suitable or is single core performance more important?

https://www.techradar.com/reviews/amd-ryzen-5-2400g
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: Weaver on May 19, 2018, 08:38:07 AM
I would also say that high core counts are worth nothing unless you either

1. have the right apps that are internally multithreaded, which is horrifyingly dangerous for the programmer in terms of potential bugs if you get it wrong and sometimes onerous too, or

2. have a setup where you do regularly run multiple processes in parallel that compute. Many processes are io-bound, waiting on the user, in the network or on the hard disk or other storage device.

3. Some computing processes are very hampered by the incredibly slow RAM that we have to out up with nowadays, where RAM has fallen further and further behind CPU speeds, my rough guess would be by a factor of 50:1 - 100:1 nowadays compared to the speed of RAM in the early 1980s. This kind of computing, where a lot of RAM accesses are just essential and nothing can be done about it - because it is just the nature of the job that needs to be done or where caching is ineffective, possibly because if a badly chosen algorithm or just because of bad luck, again the particular situation the application is in - means that a fast CPU won't help, won't be able to shine.

Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: Ronski on May 19, 2018, 08:58:58 AM
Hence my question regarding higher core count or single threaded performance.

I've had a 6 core Intel system at 4.5Ghz for a long time now, it's great when transcoding video.

I put together a cost for an a 6 core i5 8400 cpu motherboard and 8GB ram and that came to £357

https://www.shop.bt.com/products/intel-core-i5-8400-8th-gen-s1151-2-80ghz-9mb-cache-coffee-lake-cpu-D54C.html
https://www.shop.bt.com/products/asus-prime-z370-p-lga1151-intel-z370-atx-D615.html
https://www.shop.bt.com/products/ballistix-sport-lt-gray-8gb-ddr4-2666-1-2v-dimm-memory-CQ38.html

I've done no research on the motherboard, it was purely to see what the cost came to, it may also be cheaper elsewhere.

Whilst the 8400 cpu performs a lot better than the 2400G, the integrated gpu is leagues ahead in the AMD cpu.
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: NewtronStar on May 19, 2018, 02:23:31 PM
Most of what I do now is Web browsing and have a wee bit of money to spend on myself for once Ronski yet this old Asus E6700 with with Nvidia 650GT does what I need just thinking of cheap upgrade, When looking online for a whole new tower and cpu ram & os it all seems very expensive these days ranging from £399 low spec to gaming £1000  :o   
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: Weaver on May 19, 2018, 02:52:55 PM
I would tend to prioritise a superb SSD drive and plenty of excellent quality RAM first then think about CPUs if it were myself.

BTW, You are using a 64-bit o/s of course, I presume (64-bit is absolutely essential), but then I am so out of touch that probably no-one does any other these days.
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: Ronski on May 19, 2018, 05:04:28 PM
If most of what you do is web browsing then the 2400G would be more than enough, to give you a comparison here's the 3 processors.

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Intel-Pentium-E6700-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-2400G-vs-Intel-i5-8400/1106vs3183vs3097

As you can see the 2400G is almost 5 times higher in the performance rating than the E6700, and the i5-8400 is 6 times, this is multi-threaded, the single thread rating is not so high.

I would recommend nothing less than four cores though, as it simply allows the OS to be more fluid - there's many processes going on in the back ground.

Weaver has made a very good point, a decent SSD or M2 drive would make a bigger difference than a substantially faster CPU.

What HDD do you currently have, also what is the occasional intensive GPU requirements?

What OS are you using, if Windows is it retail or OEM?
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: Weaver on May 19, 2018, 05:22:31 PM
I always do my a complete burn and clean install of Win NT from genuine Microsoft retail boxed media of Pro, or whatever it’s called, edition. ‘Home’ editions are crap as vital security features have been disabled (in the past anyway) and networking crippled. That way you get rid of all the bloat and evil that the pen has polluted the machine with and it will be reliable.
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: NewtronStar on May 19, 2018, 06:00:46 PM
Have two HHD 500GB hard drives set for dual boot for Win8.1 32bit and Win10 64bit which is the default OS, both licence keys purchased online OEM, the odd play with rise of tomb raider still haven't completed it yet after a year and Astronomical 3D programs.

SSD would be a nice luxury and New micro tower unit as this Advent has seen two mother boards and three CPU changes since 2007.
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: Ronski on May 19, 2018, 07:05:45 PM
Well for around £275 you can get this, should make a nice PC.

AMD - Ryzen 3 2200G 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor £76.79
ASRock - AB350M Pro4 Micro ATX AM4 Motherboard £60.99
Patriot - Viper Elite 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR4-2400 Memory £77.94
Crucial - MX500 250GB 2.5" Solid State Drive            £59.99

Total:   £275.71   

https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/list/NmdKpG

It is important to verify that the motherboard comes with a BIOS compatible with the CPU, although it looks like AMD may send out a loan CPU so it can be updated, not sure if that applies to the UK though.

https://www.techspot.com/news/73334-amd-give-ryzen-apu-customers-free-processor-help.html

The other thing to bare in mind is your O/S, it may well activate OK if you go through the telephone process or you could pick up a cheap copy of Windows 7 or 8 off ebay and use the licence key to activate Windows 10

Edit to add, the integrated GPU should be well up to what you play.
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: tiffy on May 19, 2018, 07:11:17 PM
I would certainly echo Weaver's advice on a SSD for the operating system, I recently fitted a Samsung 500 Gb SSD to my Pentium i5 Packard Bell desktop PC, running Win 8.1 64b with 8 Gb of RAM, what a difference, complete new lease of life, most noticable is the decrease in startup and shutdown times as well as general performance increase, in my opinion a very good return for £120 odd outlay.
Retained the existing 1 Tb HD for general, non operating system storage so could have easily got away with a 250 Gb SSD, in your case if you wish to retain your dual operating system you would probably be best with a 500 Gb SSD.

Migration software is included with the Samsung SSD, I prefered to use Macrium Reflect (free version) to migrate the operating system.
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: NewtronStar on May 19, 2018, 08:40:54 PM
Much appreciation to all for giving me sound advise going to go back to AMD with a Ryzen 3 or 5 with 8 GB ram SSD 250GB, all I use the Win8.1 drive is for Windows Media Center when recording and watching F1 GP in HD have't found a better App that is as stable wish it would come back to Win10 yeah there is a hack but it's not very stable on Win10 and this new SKY GO player app stutters like XXXX that was forced on us >:(
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: Ronski on May 19, 2018, 09:28:02 PM
I use Mediportal, have done for years now. Have it running on my server as a TV Server, also running on our other PC's for playback etc. Generally it's very stable.
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: gt94sss2 on May 19, 2018, 09:53:20 PM
As others have suggested, I would first invest in a SSD - keeping your current drives as internal or external storage. The performance gain from a SSD will make you feel as you have a new system and you may even decide a new mb/cpu are unnecessary.
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: Weaver on May 19, 2018, 09:56:54 PM
And of course secure it properly. Never log in as an admin and disable the auto elevation prompt thing. Disallow anything from writing to the root directory and especially disallow creating new directories in the root, plus bin any rubbish ones that are there. Set acls tight on the file system. Use SRP (Software Restrictiion Policies) to ensure that code will only run if it is located in one of the official directory trees proper locations in the file system and for example SRP-blacklist everything but enable code execution in the windows directory and the \program files\ and program files (x86)\ directories and all their subdirectories of course. In particular I blacklisted the temp directory as a belt-and-braces tot sanity check and blacklisted all drive letters to cover removable drives. Don't run antivirus, it will just make a system unreliable and slow and it's pointless anyway on a well secured system because if things are done right no alien code can even run anyway. My tips for a 100% trouble free life for all my many customers and their emplyiees when I was working. Apologies sincerely if all is already obvious to you. :-)
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: kitfit1 on May 20, 2018, 09:24:27 AM
or you could pick up a cheap copy of Windows 7 or 8 off ebay and use the licence key to activate Windows

Modern CPU's won't run Win7 without a lot of messing about altering the O/S before you install it. This especially applies to any Ryzen CPU's. OP, if you are going to upgrade to Ryzen then factor in the cost of a Win10 licence key.
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: broadstairs on May 20, 2018, 09:48:38 AM
Or of course you could run Linux without any of that messing about  ;)  :lol:

Stuart
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: Ronski on May 20, 2018, 10:27:53 AM
Modern CPU's won't run Win7 without a lot of messing about altering the O/S before you install it. This especially applies to any Ryzen CPU's. OP, if you are going to upgrade to Ryzen then factor in the cost of a Win10 licence key.

I suggest you reread my quote below, specifically the part in bold

or you could pick up a cheap copy of Windows 7 or 8 off ebay and use the licence key to activate Windows 10

There's absolutely no need to install W7 or W8, just install W10 then use the licence key from W7 or W8 to activate.

Note, I did this in the latter part of last year, but as far as I'm aware it still works - MS wants people on Windows 10, you may well even be able to use an old key  ;)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ianmorris/2018/01/26/how-to-get-windows-10-for-free-in-2018/#5d3cd47c5145


Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: j0hn on May 20, 2018, 03:14:08 PM
edit: blah. I'm wrong.
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: Ronski on May 20, 2018, 04:25:44 PM
There is some truth behind it, as far as I know it relates to the availability of chip set drivers within the OS installation files, I had similar issues installing W7 on a NUC in the end I simply installed W10 and activated it via the W7 key.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/11182/how-to-get-ryzen-working-on-windows-7-x64

Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: broadstairs on May 20, 2018, 05:20:15 PM
When I am unable to install and use my one W7 system that will be the end of me using M$ software, I only have one small footprint PC using W7 and it runs my weather stuff and DSLStats because it runs 24x7.

Stuart
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: gt94sss2 on May 20, 2018, 05:23:05 PM
Windows installations (or any other OS) are identical regardless of the CPU in use.

MS/Intel have been known to do things to encourage people to upgrade to Windows 10 such as https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/221389-microsoft-skylake-owners-must-upgrade-to-windows-10-within-18-months-future-cpus-will-require-latest-operating-systems - though I believe there is an unofficial patch which bypasses this and allows older OS to continue working on newer cpus
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: Browni on May 20, 2018, 06:11:51 PM
Kitfit1 is quite correct in what he says.

This happens on my Ryzen 7 processor

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi68.tinypic.com%2Fs63ku0.jpg&hash=0b35b0e991bf116227812a18f197bc72)
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: NewtronStar on May 20, 2018, 10:22:05 PM
Just purchased a SSD 860 EVO 250GB to-day £72 did a clone of Win10 Pro HDD drive to SSD using free EaseUS todo that went very well until boot up time using SSD boot issue, have been using dual boot for so long the MBR (master boot record) needed fixed on the SSD by Win10 USB installation media and command prompt bootrec.exe /rebuildbcd done the trick.

The result is fabulous what a difference  ;D
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: Ronski on May 21, 2018, 06:30:33 AM
Yes they make a lot of difference, and if you don't have sata 3 on your motherboard then you won't be seeing the full potential, but still a huge improvement over a normal HDD. Good choice of drive as well.
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: johnson on May 21, 2018, 07:45:03 AM
In real world use the difference between interfaces is minimal. I recently went from an SSD on sata 2 to NVMe with an order of magnitude higher throughput and the difference in day to day use is negligible.

Its the massive reduction in seek and random access time that makes the change from HDD to SSD such a jump.
Title: Re: New Mother Board Ram & CPU
Post by: petef on May 21, 2018, 09:48:45 AM
SSD does boost I/O considerably. However a portion of the observed performance uplift would be seen if copying the system to a fresh HDD, or clearing and restoring the existing HDD.