Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => Telephony Wiring + Equipment => Topic started by: Jon21 on April 05, 2018, 02:39:03 PM

Title: New line install
Post by: Jon21 on April 05, 2018, 02:39:03 PM
Hi all,

Been quite some time since I last posted on here. Been with Virgin for a while and it's been mostly ok until late last year. Seem to be getting occasional upstream congestion, which of course Virgin aren't interested/bothered in sorting out. The contract period has now finished so thinking of moving to a VDSL connection, probably with AAISP. Looking at probably the Home::1 1TB package.

Question I have, is whether an engineer would move the master socket at the appointment? Going to need a new line install. The master socket is currently in the hallway, which isn't convenient as there isn't any power sockets close by. Ideally, I'd like to have it moved to a upstairs bedroom at the front of the house. Would the engineer be able to extend the current phone line, run the cable around the front of the house, drill a hole and then mount the master socket above the Virgin face plate?
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Ixel on April 05, 2018, 02:44:46 PM
If you're paying for a new line installation, not just to start a stopped line, then that used to cover for the option of relocating a master socket within reason. As long as it's not too time consuming or difficult for the engineer then they should be able to relocate the master socket. I did this once at a previous address, the engineer moved it from the lounge to the front bedroom upstairs. In my case the drop wire was overhead at the front of the house, so the engineer just cut the cable downstairs, drilled a hole in the wall upstairs, rerouted the cable through that hole and cut the appropriate length as it was a bit too long.

I don't know what an engineer does when the cable is too short, perhaps they use a junction box or something to join a new cable on to the previous/drop cable? Sorry I can't be of much more help, but someone like Black Sheep would know I imagine :).

As for AAISP, I would highly recommend them. Their support is top notch, I recently had line bonding from them.
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Jon21 on April 05, 2018, 03:09:45 PM
Iím guessing that it would need a new line installation, thereís no dial tone when a phone is plugged into the master socket, so I guess that the line was disconnected at some point once the move to Virgin was done. The line is underground but Iíve no idea if there is any ducting or whether itís direct burial. There is a BT chamber right outside the house in the pavement, donít know if that would have any bearing on how easy things would be?
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Black Sheep on April 05, 2018, 05:38:52 PM
Every job is bespoke .... don't get me wrong, there'll be a large element of 'samey' on each task, but every single customer (EU as they are referred to these days), will have their own idea of what should go where and how they would like it done.

Some don't give a flying .......... other's scrutinise your every move.

So each job has to be assessed differently and with the EU's preferred aesthetics taken into consideration, and applied if possible.
With that in mind, on more than one occasion I've had EU's refuse to have another hole drilled into their brickwork and yet another socket fixed to their internal wall, when a perfectly good one already exists, with a perfectly good wire going all the way back to the VM box situated on their outside wall.

So, the best way to provide the new line was to run a cable from the BT66 (BT's own outside box where the underground cable is sited), a few metres to the VM box and connect to the existing cable running to their master socket. Then, simply change the front plate from a VM logo NTE to an Openreach one, and voila !!! No fuss, no mess and one happy EU.

The only point of note is that our auditors (if we get the truly pedantic one, of which there are many), may turn around and boll0ck the engineer for putting a 'joint' in a non-approved closure' (ie: VM's outside box).
Of course, there is nothing wrong with VM's box as it's been watertight for the length of time you've used their service, but this is the world we operate in today !!

I would still do as I comment above and put good notes on my job at the end stipulating the EU categorically did not wish another cable to be run on his wall, or any further drilling to take place ..... etc etc etc ......

The icing on the cake of course, is if VM's wire from the outside box to their master socket, actually went past BT's outside box .... it would then simply be a case of diverting it into the BT box and job done. Hope this makes sense ?? :)   





 
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Jon21 on April 05, 2018, 07:47:09 PM
Thanks for the reply Black Sheep. Unfortunately, there isnít a BT66 on the outside wall. The phone line appears to come up from underground and enters into a void in a wall between the hallway and downstairs toilet. The Virgin phone socket is actually sited directly above the BT master socket in the hallway.
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Black Sheep on April 05, 2018, 08:08:01 PM
Thanks for the reply Black Sheep. Unfortunately, there isnít a BT66 on the outside wall. The phone line appears to come up from underground and enters into a void in a wall between the hallway and downstairs toilet. The Virgin phone socket is actually sited directly above the BT master socket in the hallway.

My apologies .... I didn't read your OP fully and correctly. I assumed the VM socket was already upstairs.   :blush:

If you still require it upstairs, then obviously the engineer will have to connect the cable at where the void is, and 'run it' upstairs. How this will be done I have no idea, as I obviously don't know your property and its lay-out ??

The residential installation task raised by CP's/ISP's, carry a bog-standard 1hr TRC (Time Related Charges) banding.

In other words, if the task at hand looks like it will take longer than an hour, the engineer will pass it back to the CP/ISP with notes saying as much, and requesting a higher TRC band be applied to the job.

 :)

Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Jon21 on April 07, 2018, 01:21:17 PM
I've attached a annotated pic of where the existing BT master socket is and where I was hoping it would be relocated to. I don't mind having to pay the £140? fee for a relocation if needs be.
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Ronski on April 07, 2018, 03:22:03 PM
If the existing master socket is mounted on the external wall then there is no reason why you couldn't simply drill through the wall and run the cable up to where you want. You could even use a data extension and simply extend it yourself and use an appropriate socket the other end.
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Jon21 on April 07, 2018, 03:59:39 PM
Thinking about it, that would certainly be an option. I wasnít sure if using a data extension kit would affect potential sync speeds. But I guess it wouldnít be much different to just moving the master socket. Would an engineer be happy with drilling through walls to fit it? A quick search seems to suggest its only run internally? Would be a shorter run if it was done externally.

Think I should perhaps send the pic to AAISP sales and see what they suggest perhaps?
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Ixel on April 07, 2018, 05:45:00 PM
Just to mention that you could always get a better quality roll of cable for the extension if you wanted, to minimise the loss, not the standard cable that Openreach would use.
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Jon21 on April 09, 2018, 11:34:00 AM
Order placed with AAISP, sales confirmed that as I was ordering a new copper pair, then the engineer should put it where I would like it.
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Black Sheep on April 09, 2018, 12:59:27 PM
Just to mention that you could always get a better quality roll of cable for the extension if you wanted, to minimise the loss, not the standard cable that Openreach would use.

We use Cat5 2pr UTP for data extensions ................. methinks you're thinking of a 'voice' extension, Ixel ??.
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Jon21 on April 09, 2018, 08:18:43 PM
Just had a look at the AAISP control panel and liking the detail of the order process. Just a quick question. Thereís quite a few entries for ďTest line called (N)Ē. Anyone know what that means?
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Ixel on April 09, 2018, 11:00:33 PM
We use Cat5 2pr UTP for data extensions ................. methinks you're thinking of a 'voice' extension, Ixel ??.

Yeah, I was probably thinking of a voice extension. I was thinking as long as the cable is twisted pair and not flat. Even better, a twisted pair and shielded cable if it's going to be run near any potential sources of interference indoors.

Just had a look at the AAISP control panel and liking the detail of the order process. Just a quick question. Thereís quite a few entries for ďTest line called (N)Ē. Anyone know what that means?

The AAISP control panel is quite something. You know pretty much everything that's going on regarding a fault (e.g. what the AAISP staff are doing, or the engineer notes) or actual details on how an order is progressing. "Test line called (N)" usually happens when the frames engineer is doing their bit for your order. You may see something like this a bit later after that's happened: "Message: Warning 575 Notification of completion of frames activity".

"Test line called (N)" happens whenever the voice side of your line becomes used. If you end up trying to use the phone on that line, after the service is live, then you'll find the control panel will say "Test line called (Q)" instead. I assume Q means 'quiet line test' while N perhaps means 'network' or something else. You'll hear a pre-recorded message which I think is Adrian Kennard's voice, not sure though, saying the circuit ID or such message and then "quite line test" for a few minutes before it will eventually hang up. Even though AAISP classify their copper line product as 'data only' they still have to send something down the voice side so that an engineer doesn't accidentally take your pair of wires (thinking they aren't in use) and subsequently use them for somewhere else, as far as I know anyway. SoGEA may replace this one day.

While I hope that you never get a fault on your line while with AAISP, rest assured that they won't sit around when a fault does occur! They were very prompt when I had a strange problem at my old address, which is why I moved from Zen as nothing seemed to happen really there. Credit to Zen though, they eventually let me leave my contract early and even refunded me what I had paid from the contract start date. That's what I call excellent customer service.

Anyway... back to AAISP. They even fixed a minor issue I had recently with my bonded lines, they know their stuff. I actually left a review detailing my experience regarding how they handled my odd problem if you're curious and want to read about it - https://www.ispreview.co.uk/review/reviews/6797.html - bear in mind this review is about my old address's line. They were on TalkTalk Business's tail, as TTB I imagine were on Openreach's tail :). One of the SFI engineers who arrived if I recall correctly actually commented saying that my provider must have a good contact at Openreach or something like that haha. After the case was escalated (second engineer onwards) they were doing all sorts, pair swaps, lift and shift, D side inspection, port reset or such. The final engineer had to return the following day as he was here for a long time, he looked for the best possible connection along the route my line took (which took him a while).
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Jon21 on April 10, 2018, 03:27:34 PM
Thanks for the explanation Ixel. Seem to be doing plenty of work then, unless itís just normal amount for a new connection.

Seems as though going with A&A was the right choice, going off your experience with them.
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: jelv on April 10, 2018, 07:27:23 PM
The AAISP control panel is quite something. You know pretty much everything that's going on regarding a fault (e.g. what the AAISP staff are doing, or the engineer notes) or actual details on how an order is progressing.

It doesn't tell you everything. It doesn't tell you when the support person has gone to the loo but it does tell you pretty much everything else!
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Ixel on April 10, 2018, 10:00:02 PM
It doesn't tell you everything. It doesn't tell you when the support person has gone to the loo but it does tell you pretty much everything else!

Haha, true, but yeah it does generally tell you what's important or useful to know lets say.
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Jon21 on April 17, 2018, 10:44:33 PM
Install is tomorrow morning, hopefully all goes smoothly.
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Jon21 on April 18, 2018, 03:27:11 PM
All done. Had a bit of an issue with regards to whether the engineer could get the job done in his allotted time. He was a bit hesitant to do it but he did move the master socket to where I wanted it in the end. He was able to use the hole that Virgin had drilled for their phone line, to extend the Openreach line and then take it out through that hole, along the front of the house and then up into the bedroom. Nice and tidy. I think he went over his time but didn't apply any TRC.

Sync is slightly higher than the estimate I was getting for a clean line. Was estimated 63Mb, it was syncing at 65Mb on his tester. Line length I think he said, was 500m.

Liking the stats that are on the A&A control panel now. Latency is nice and low as well. Be interesting to see what it's like when they move across to the new TTB network next week (I think?).
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Ixel on April 18, 2018, 03:32:49 PM
My ping on the new TTB network is roughly around 5ms (from AAISP's CQM). I generally get 5-6ms when pinging 1.0.0.1 too. You may be able to still ask if you can be put on the trial, all they do is make a few changes their end and change your username to end in @a.9. This is on two FTTC lines bonded. I'm waiting for an update in regards to TTB being able to request DLM resets for FTTC connections, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to divulge much or any of what I've been informed so far but what I will say is that it looks like good news may be on the way for everyone is all I'll say :). I'll know more on Friday.
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Jon21 on April 18, 2018, 03:48:25 PM
Iím getting between 11-12ms going by the CQM. TBB monitor is about that as well. Iím happy to wait to move over to the new network, although good to know that latency is a bit lower on it.  :)

Just got to figure out how to login in to the Draytek Vigor 130, without connecting a PC directly to it now.
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Ixel on April 18, 2018, 05:37:23 PM
Iím getting between 11-12ms going by the CQM. TBB monitor is about that as well. Iím happy to wait to move over to the new network, although good to know that latency is a bit lower on it.  :)

Just got to figure out how to login in to the Draytek Vigor 130, without connecting a PC directly to it now.

Indeed.

Although it's talking about the Firebrick, this might help you - https://support.aa.net.uk/FireBrick_2700_Configuration_run-through#Other_Things - not sure though if it's helpful, but I imagine a static route may need configuring?
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Weaver on April 19, 2018, 02:54:36 AM
@Jon21 - I couldn't image being with anyone other than AA myself, agree with Ixel

The Vigor 130 is just a modem not a router. You will need a router to go with it, or else use a PC as a PPPoEoE router. It's an excellent device, uniquely efficient (faster) in many cases compared with all other PPPoE modems because it uses the PPPoA protocol on the line not the bloated PPPoEoA.

You just plug the Vigor 130 into the line and it just works, there is no config to do, but you also need a router to route packets from / to your LAN unless you have only a single PC.

I just told my router that I had a generic standard PPPoEoE-speaking modem and plugged the Vigor 130 into the wall socket with no setup on the Vigor and it just instantly worked. I'm using normal BT OR DSL lines.
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Jon21 on April 19, 2018, 09:08:49 AM
@Jon21 - I couldn't image being with anyone other than AA myself, agree with Ixel

The Vigor 130 is just a modem not a router. You will need a router to go with it, or else use a PC as a PPPoEoE router. It's an excellent device, uniquely efficient (faster) in many cases compared with all other PPPoE modems because it uses the PPPoA protocol on the line not the bloated PPPoEoA.

You just plug the Vigor 130 into the line and it just works, there is no config to do, but you also need a router to route packets from / to your LAN unless you have only a single PC.

I just told my router that I had a generic standard PPPoEoE-speaking modem and plugged the Vigor 130 into the wall socket with no setup on the Vigor and it just instantly worked. I'm using normal BT OR DSL lines.

Ah yeah sorry, should of mentioned that I am using a router. Every thing seems to be working fine, itís just when I type in 192.168.2.1 to go to the WebGUI of the Draytek, nothing happens. If I connect directly to it with a PC, then I can access it fine. Looks as though Iíll have to follow the instructions in the link that Ixel gave, to set up a static route to it. I am quite a noob with networking, so may take me a while :D

Edit: I'm a bit lost lol. I've found the static route setting in my router but I have no idea what to enter in the fields.
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Jon21 on April 20, 2018, 01:42:38 PM
Got some stats by connecting to directly to the modem. Everything look ok?

---------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A/B/C) -----------
   Running Mode            :      17A       State                : SHOWTIME
   DS Actual Rate          : 64436000 bps   US Actual Rate       : 16024000 bps
   DS Attainable Rate      : 64797688 bps   US Attainable Rate   : 15834580 bps
   DS Path Mode            :        Fast    US Path Mode         :        Fast
   DS Interleave Depth     :        1       US Interleave Depth  :        1
   NE Current Attenuation  :       19 dB    Cur SNR Margin       :        6  dB
   DS actual PSD           :     6. 8 dB    US actual PSD        :    12. 9  dB
   NE CRC Count            :      336       FE CRC Count         :       17
   NE ES Count             :      254       FE  ES Count         :        6
   Xdsl Reset Times        :        0       Xdsl Link  Times     :        1
   ITU Version[0]          : b5004946       ITU Version[1]       : 544e0000
   VDSL Firmware Version   : 05-07-06-0D-01-07   [with Vectoring support]
   Power Management Mode   : DSL_G997_PMS_L0
   Test Mode               : DISABLE
  -------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
   Far Current Attenuation :       27 dB    Far SNR Margin       :        6  dB
   CO ITU Version[0]       : b5004946       CO ITU Version[1]    : 544ed086
   DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR    : < IFTN >

Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Weaver on April 21, 2018, 03:54:29 AM
@Jon I don't have any way of getting to the admin web interface of my modems (I have three modems, not one) when they are behind my router. My router isn't set up to route anything to and from the particular separate LANs one which each modem lives.

You would have to find out from the router's documentation how to assign an ip address within your current main LANís address range and get the router to copy packets to and from the router's modem-facing interface facing and they then just need to go to 192.168.2.1 which I see is the Vigor 130ís default web admin address.

If you are using IPv4 NAT (you probably are) so your main LAN IPv4 address range is say 192.168.0.*/24 or 192.168.1.*/24 or 10.*.*.*/8 then that makes it easier because you could just tell the router that say the range 192.168.2.*/24 is associated with the routerís modem-facing network interface (sometimes called WAN or similar). Then 0.0.0.0/0, the default route, will remain as the route mapped to the PPPoE interface.

If however, you are like me and are NOT using IPv4 NAT then ignore my comment about 192.168.0.* or .1.* or 10.0.0.0 but the procedure is unchanged.
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Jon21 on April 23, 2018, 02:26:02 PM
I think I'm now on the new TTB network. Did a "Kill PPP" from the control panel, the latest status update seemed to suggest that it would reconnect on the new network. Only slight issue, is that the latency is ever so slightly worse, only like a couple of ms so nothing major. Was hoping for a bit of an improvement.

(https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/quality/share/thumb/7f2572ad4deed0a7c02ae19eda5a69ba6596dcd7-23-04-2018.png) (https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/quality/share/7f2572ad4deed0a7c02ae19eda5a69ba6596dcd7-23-04-2018)

Edit: Had a chat with the A&A team on their IRC channel and I am on the new network now.
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Ixel on April 24, 2018, 09:13:06 AM
When I initially saw your ping graph I did wonder if you were on the new network, but your ping I guess is just higher than mine for other reasons? Both of my connections had a PPP kill last night, I was on the new network anyway, but since reconnecting my ping has dropped by another 0.3ms (minimum ping on CQM is now 5ms exactly). Hopefully once everyone's migrated over it won't go up by much. I'm still waiting on news for requesting a DLM reset via TTB (which AAISP are currently on TTB's tail about at the moment :P).

(https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/quality/share/3d855252126bb4c241c275ad78d3880f302ee22d.png)

Code: [Select]
Pinging 1.0.0.1

Ping
No Time(ms) IP Address Note Name
1 6.111 1.0.0.1 Reply
2 5.671 1.0.0.1 Reply 1dot1dot1dot1.cloudflare-dns.com
3 5.660 1.0.0.1 Reply 1dot1dot1dot1.cloudflare-dns.com
4 6.454 1.0.0.1 Reply 1dot1dot1dot1.cloudflare-dns.com
5 5.895 1.0.0.1 Reply 1dot1dot1dot1.cloudflare-dns.com
6 5.549 1.0.0.1 Reply 1dot1dot1dot1.cloudflare-dns.com
7 5.377 1.0.0.1 Reply 1dot1dot1dot1.cloudflare-dns.com
8 6.016 1.0.0.1 Reply 1dot1dot1dot1.cloudflare-dns.com
9 5.886 1.0.0.1 Reply 1dot1dot1dot1.cloudflare-dns.com
10 5.876 1.0.0.1 Reply 1dot1dot1dot1.cloudflare-dns.com
Sent 10 Received 10 Loss 0.00%

Min 5.377 Ave 5.849 Max 6.454
Title: Re: New line install
Post by: Jon21 on April 27, 2018, 01:48:36 AM
@Jon I don't have any way of getting to the admin web interface of my modems (I have three modems, not one) when they are behind my router. My router isn't set up to route anything to and from the particular separate LANs one which each modem lives.

You would have to find out from the router's documentation how to assign an ip address within your current main LANís address range and get the router to copy packets to and from the router's modem-facing interface facing and they then just need to go to 192.168.2.1 which I see is the Vigor 130ís default web admin address.

If you are using IPv4 NAT (you probably are) so your main LAN IPv4 address range is say 192.168.0.*/24 or 192.168.1.*/24 or 10.*.*.*/8 then that makes it easier because you could just tell the router that say the range 192.168.2.*/24 is associated with the routerís modem-facing network interface (sometimes called WAN or similar). Then 0.0.0.0/0, the default route, will remain as the route mapped to the PPPoE interface.

If however, you are like me and are NOT using IPv4 NAT then ignore my comment about 192.168.0.* or .1.* or 10.0.0.0 but the procedure is unchanged.
I've got this working now. It did involve switching back to the Asus RT-AC88u that I have, from the Netgear XR500. I just followed this guide: http://whatsyourrouter.com/mybb/showthread.php?tid=156 and now I can access the WebGUI of the Draytek and then view the stats.