Kitz Forum

Announcements => News Articles => Topic started by: skyeci on April 05, 2018, 12:23:25 PM

Title: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on April 05, 2018, 12:23:25 PM
So with permission from my contact at Openreach I am allowed to share this as I asked for an update and apparently CP's have this info too..

sadly not good news by the looks of it..

I have checked the situation again and received this response:-“ we have paused the trial of ReTx whilst we work with ECI and their partners to fix a bit loading algorithm problem in one of the chip sets which was causing anomalies on a subset of lines on the trial. We do not have a date for any next steps for this trial as we are concentrating our efforts on working with our supplier and their partners to find a fix”.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: broadstairs on April 05, 2018, 01:17:37 PM
Well just confirms to me why they need to dump ECI and install something which works!

Stuart
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Ronski on April 05, 2018, 01:29:38 PM
Come on let's be honest, is anyone surprised?  I'm not.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Ixel on April 05, 2018, 02:35:40 PM
ETA for G.INP - Never or by the time VDSL2 can be considered old tech by a good percentage of this country

That seems to be the realistic assessment I feel.

They need to dump ECI and replace it, but of course they won't. There's nothing forcing them to do so as they are allowed to offer FTTC as a best efforts service, which means they don't need to guarantee things like G.INP support across their entire estate. Thanks for sharing the update however, it's appreciated.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on April 05, 2018, 02:39:50 PM
I was going to post a rant on just how pathetic this situation with the ECI cabs is but I give up.

(the posting an "official" update is greatly appreciated though)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on April 05, 2018, 02:47:19 PM
yes it has come from the correct person who is in touch with the team working on eci g.inp etc.

Sounds like next year to me sadly if at all??
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on April 05, 2018, 02:50:46 PM
Quote
with ECI and their partners to fix a bit loading algorithm problem in one of the chip sets which was causing anomalies on a subset of lines on the trial

First thoughts "ECI and partners" =  Lantiq ?
"one of the chip sets" - Don't the M41's all contain the same chipset, therefore do they mean a particular type of modem.   
"bit loading algorithm" - isn't it the modem which is responsible for bit loading
"causing anomalies on a subset of lines" - are we now back to the known issue whereby certain modems can cause problems for neighbouring lines when used with g.inp.

Putting 2+2 together to make 5
ECI has not been able to come up with a solution to protect neighbouring lines if a rogue modem in use. 
I haven't yet figured out why rogue modems would affect neighbouring g.inp lines, other than know if certain settings are changed on the rogue modem, that it will most likely increase noise for those neighbouring lines.....  and that g.inp works far better on certain types of noise than others.

T-REC G.998.4 does slightly cover bitloading but some of it applies to in use with SRA.   I've only had a quick scan and don't really feel like breaking it all down....   I doubt if me spending a long time reading that document would enable us to come up with a theory that the experts will not have already covered. 

@ ejs - what do you reckon on that statement?

Thanks for the update skyeci - appreciated.    TBH it's not looking too good is it.   They've had 3 years now since g.inp was first rolled out and we are still no further forward :(

[Moderator edited to fix a problem with a pair of nested bbc tags.]
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on April 05, 2018, 03:09:34 PM
well 2 years come april 16th for my line since its removal after the initial 2 week period.

I wonder if  that chap on here and mdws still has it on his line, trying to remember his name. got it "EvilShubunkin"
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ejs on April 05, 2018, 06:00:59 PM
I think all we know for definite about the M41 line cards is that the line cards are either "v2" or "v3", but we don't really know anything about the chipsets in the line cards, beyond the IFTN and the 4 hexadecimal digits we see in the stats. It could be the same or very similar chip set in both the v2 and v3 line cards.

I think it's probably going to be the receiving end that is responsible for initiating a bit swap, so for the downstream, that would be the end user modem. The bit swapping must be coordinated between both ends, a problem might be the modem requesting bit swaps and the other end refusing them. The word "algorithm" doesn't really tell us anything, and a bit swapping problem could be a problem at either end.

"causing anomalies on a subset of lines on the trial" - I read that as the subset of lines using that particular chip set in question. Not as one line causing problems for others.

I would not be at all surprised if the problem were Lantiq modem firmware related yet again, and if they're still trying to debug some ancient firmware version numerous iterations behind the latest.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on April 05, 2018, 07:39:26 PM
afaik Openreach use VTU-C64 line cards in their ECI cabs which supposedly contain Infineon VINAX V3 chipsets.
I believe ECI also retailed VTU-C48 line cards at one point but not sure if these were ever used with VDSL2 DSLAMs.

>> I would not be at all surprised if the problem were Lantiq modem firmware related yet again,

To me, from everything they say appears to be pointing to something at the modem end...  but how come TP-Link could fix this on their modems which contained the same chipset as the ECI modems.   Also during the [ECI] roll-out it was users of other makes of modem which were reporting problems retaining sync.

One thing we do know is that Openreach are remaining tight lipped on the fact they have discovered there is an issue with some modems and g.inp..  but arent saying anything when it comes to disclosing the actual modem/chip type of that modem(s).
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on April 05, 2018, 08:08:10 PM
Just found an archived copy here (http://archive.is/rjqS) of COE VDSL2 supported linecards,  which shows that there was a VTU-C64 which contained a Vinax 2.2 chipset, however I note that it only supports 48 DSL interfaces.  That could be a limitation though of the ECI F61 rather than the C64  :-\
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: smallal on April 06, 2018, 12:53:56 AM
Openreach need to go back to ECI immediately & demand a REAL fix under the sale of goods act.
The equipment is clearly 'not fit for purpose' under UK law, as it doesn't comply with the spec. they were given for the equipment.
Replacement circuit boards for the street cabs. is the obvious & cheapest solution, they're plug-in units so can utilise the existing cabinets & power supplies.
It's time to stop messing about with trying to fix the existing hardware, after all it isn't days or weeks of failure, it's YEARS!
It isn't working & customers are suffering.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: PhilipD on April 06, 2018, 10:09:25 AM
Hi

Sale of goods act doesn't apply to commercial purchases so there will be a separate contract in place.  I suspect that contract will not include things that can't be added now that wasn't part of the original equipment.

The blame is squarely with BT for commissioning VDSL without everything working from day one, they cut corners at the beginning and installed VDSL Lite, so we have no vectoring (apart from some exceptions) and no G.INP on ECI cabinets.  This sort of things is repeated all the time, commercially and in retail, where we buy a product that is missing a "feature" that will be enabled later by a firmware update, which either happens late in the day or often not at all, and usually fails to work very well if it is implemented.

G.Fast is the same, corners cut and we now have pods at the side of cabinets and no reduction in line lengths for anyone.  ADSL was also similar, Seamless rate adaption was an option they missed out, and they also never implemented PhyR retransmission on ADSL, which is what G.INP is today.  So G.INP, a technology available a long time ago on ADSL, is still absence from a very large percentage of VDSL lines.

It's about time BT stopped messing around with corroded, unshielded, hardly twisted paired cable that wasn't much good for audio let alone data, and got around to upgrading the infrastructure for the 21st century.

Regards

Phil





Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Ronski on April 06, 2018, 10:28:24 AM
Well said PhilipD, it's also about time that Ofcom stopped putting barriers in their way and just let them get on with it.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: smallal on April 06, 2018, 02:04:16 PM
Well G.FAST should solve all my problems, but I've no idea when the pod on my street cab will go live.
It's been fitted & is working according to the Kelly Comms crew who wired it up.
However, trying to find out when exchanges like mine are going live is like trying to get blood out of a stone.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on April 06, 2018, 06:45:34 PM
I agree on the cutting corners, openreach have a history of spending as little as possible on capital expenditure.  I also called it (to much abuse) that prior to g.fast product launch it would be deployed from cabinets not street poles.

However what I have also said before, is that if this ECI equipment was not available, its entirely possible some of us in ECI areas may not have had VDSL at all, it may be the only reason our areas became financially viable for them, and I would rather have ECI vdsl over 4km ADSL or VM cable.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Ixel on April 06, 2018, 07:01:48 PM
Yeah it's better than nothing, just slightly annoying perhaps that we're paying the same price for a lower standard of service.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Bowdon on April 06, 2018, 07:31:06 PM
I've just noticed this thread. I'd like to say I'm shocked or suprised. But sadly I'm not.

I have said somewhere else that I suspect ECI problems will be low down on the list of solving now FTTP is becoming more of a priority.

G.fast, if deployed in the way OR first said, could have solved all these problems.

BT/OR seem to be extremely slow when it comes to rolling out new technology. I remember when Be was using their own ADSL2+ technology many years before BT started doing it.

When we come out of the EU hopefully Ofcom will be disbanded and the landscape will change.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: NewtronStar on April 06, 2018, 07:49:56 PM
Don't believe for one moment it's halted because of rouge Modems not able to perform bit-swapping the Huawei estate has all different kinds of modems connected to it across the UK without any issue, so I can only think the real problem must lie within the ECI Cabinet hardware.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on April 07, 2018, 09:26:50 AM
Newt yeah sort of, its probably a compatibility issue, broadcom is probably the biggest name in the xDSL industry, I expect when modems are introduced to market, if they get tested then its much more likely against broadcom dslams than lantiq dslams.  Sky's g.inp ADSL I believe uses broadcom dslams (not entirely sure tho), which means broadcom have a lot of technical experience with the technology.

Back in my ukonline days using connexant dslams, the dslams were configured to be more capable than BT wholesale's dslams, by supporting SRA, and it was amazing when it worked, but compatibility was a dog compared to broadcom. SRA itself only worked on older gen connexant modems, and without SRA overall reliability and performance was inferior to broadcom.

The hauwei deployment is not problem free, but rather they have managed to get automated workarounds in place to get problems down to an acceptable level for support costs.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on April 07, 2018, 10:26:29 AM
Sky's g.inp ADSL I believe uses broadcom dslams (not entirely sure tho), which means broadcom have a lot of technical experience with the technology.

You're correct - they're Huawei MSANS with BCM chips.

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: EvilShubunkin on April 07, 2018, 10:59:08 PM
well 2 years come april 16th for my line since its removal after the initial 2 week period.

I wonder if  that chap on here and mdws still has it on his line, trying to remember his name. got it "EvilShubunkin"

Yeah still have G.INP on my ECI line - never lost it since it was first enabled yonks ago.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on April 08, 2018, 07:43:51 AM
Yeah still have G.INP on my ECI line - never lost it since it was first enabled yonks ago.


nice- wish OR would sort it out.still seems odd you have managed to hold on to it for nearly 2 years. perhaps you are one of the trial lines too...
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on June 05, 2018, 03:11:37 PM
As its been a couple of months does anyone have any further information on whether there is hope for ECI cab customers or has all work stopped and hope is completely lost?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Ixel on June 05, 2018, 03:33:51 PM
I don't know either, would like to know but I'm betting we'll be waiting at least another year (if ever) before we get any possible progress again.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on June 05, 2018, 04:17:53 PM
be very surprised if it's this year or even ever ?...... it's gone on too long now I feel..
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: sotonsam on June 05, 2018, 04:26:31 PM
Got a feeling they'll put more of their focus into the G.Fast rollout to be honest, seems a bit pointless wasting blood, sweat and tears with vectoring methods on ECI cabs.

Although I still think Openreach's direction with G.Fast is screwed as well.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Weaver on June 05, 2018, 05:01:35 PM
Maybe BT could pick the ECI cabs first for replacement by G.Fast and then dump them that way?

Doesn't help many people though obviously. But it’s presumably just a matter of getting heavy with the developer and forcing them to get the software finished? Unless the hardware is inadequate and can't deliver the required cpu performance, or else the software absolutely needs hardware support to get the job done because it isn't a software-only subsystem?

None of this makes them any money of course. Not a cent.

Indeed, what incentive do they have to give me FTTP or FTTC instead of 2.5 Mbps ADSL2, never mind ECI software upgrades ? Neither makes any money for them, it just eats into their profits.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: sotonsam on June 05, 2018, 05:12:19 PM
Maybe BT could pick the ECI cabs first for replacement by G.Fast and then dump them that way?

Doesn't help many people though obviously. But it’s presumably just a matter of getting heavy with the developer and forcing them to get the software finished? Unless the hardware is inadequate and can't deliver the required cpu performance, or else the software absolutely needs hardware support to get the job done because it isn't a software-only subsystem?

None of this makes them any money of course. Not a cent.

Indeed, what incentive do they have to give me FTTP or FTTC instead of 2.5 Mbps ADSL2, never mind ECI software upgrades ? Neither makes any money for them, it just eats into their profits.
I might be wrong, but I'm sure I read that its chipset hardware and firmware that's the issue on ECI cabs? (Amongst other things)

To be honest, a lot of the FTTC estate is ECI (all of Southampton is ECI), so it would take some significant investment and manpower to change those all up just for minimal current product improvements - for what would be zero return as you said, no making at all in that.

Whereas leaving the ECI cabs as is and focusing on Huawei pods for G.Fast would likely be the most cost effective option, as that would provide an additional service at which they could sell to ISP's. And that’s also not forgetting their FTTP rollout and putting their manpower into that.

Give it a few years and there will be tons of dormant ECI cabs bearing graffiti all over the country, I'm sure of it!
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on June 05, 2018, 05:23:11 PM
We have a user from Israel on the forums who is connected to the exact same ECI DSLAM with what certainly appears to be the same 206 firmware.

That particular user has G.INP working perfectly.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Weaver on June 05, 2018, 05:49:31 PM
Wow. What on earth is the problem then?

I am surprised that extra hardware is needed. G.INP is just an additional protocol sub component and it is a software matter and so only costs one-off sw development plus the cost of pushing out the software, provided there is no show stopping issue with lack of cpu horsepower or crippling shortage of RAM the latter being very unlikely in this day and age. On the other hand maybe the CPUs used were woefully underpowered and inadequate, and only barely worked.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on June 05, 2018, 06:44:03 PM


We have a user from Israel on the forums who is connected to the exact same ECI DSLAM with what certainly appears to be the same 206 firmware.

That particular user has G.INP working perfectly.
There is also at least one user who says they never had it removed when it was trialed 2 years ago.

It is very infuriating all the delays.  It makes me think it must be working for the majority but a small minority is holding back rollout.

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on June 05, 2018, 06:52:29 PM


seems a bit pointless wasting blood, sweat and tears with vectoring methods on ECI cabs.
. I do not believe (I could be wrong) Ginp or 3db has anything to do with vectoring.  It should require nothing additional in the cabinets apart from a software upgrade.   The way I look at it is Ginp and 3db should give the majority of ECI users an increase in speed and a more reliable connection.

I look at GFast being years away from providing the potential of increasing the speed of most end users connections.

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Weaver on June 05, 2018, 07:28:19 PM
@ktz392837 Agreed. Regarding G.INP,  I now effectively have the same thing but it's the Broadcom proprietary equivalent called “PhyR”(Tx) or some such thing, on ADSL2. It gives increased reliability depending more or less on the type of noise distribution that you experience and then this may or may not be sacrificed, the reliability put back again, and exchanged for more speed. You can always make it less reliable, by increasing the size of constellations (ie greater bit loading / bits-per bin) or by smaller/shorter FEC overheads if you have any. It is always a trade-off. I haven't had PhyRTx long but I suspect it is one part of the reason for the huge reliability improvement, but unfortunately three other upgrades were done at the same time, so I can't tell which was responsible.

I use 3dB downstream target SNRM on ADSL2 which gives me around 15-20% more speed compared with 6dB. I can reconfigure BT remotely to change downstream target from one to the other, or even a range of higher and much more conservative options. With very good modems a 3dB target is good enough to still be reliable, not so with less good modems on an ultra long or variable line. But don't listen to me anyway, as I have zero experience of VDSL2. :-)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Ixel on June 05, 2018, 07:37:10 PM
Unfortunately there's no such options to change things like SNRM target on VDSL2/FTTC by Openreach, you get what DLM gives you and that's it. However, the Lantiq/Infineon chipset can adjust the SNRM target offset for the downstream provided that your connection isn't banded by DLM. I do this on one of my two lines, as one performs better than the other.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ejs on June 05, 2018, 07:40:21 PM
I think all Openreach G.INP issues have been mainly due to modem firmware issues, but for whatever reason Openreach always try to adjust something cabinet-side to work around the issue, rather than sorting out the modems. I guess that's still what's happening now.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on June 05, 2018, 07:47:29 PM
We have a user from Israel on the forums who is connected to the exact same ECI DSLAM with what certainly appears to be the same 206 firmware.

That particular user has G.INP working perfectly.

It wouldnt surprise me if ECI consider the software working (given its active in other countries), and have advised openreach to just manage the end user devices connected, and openreach cant/wont do that so a possible standoff, either way, stop hoping and waiting for it people, you will just be disappointed.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Bowdon on June 06, 2018, 10:53:26 AM
It would be interesting if G.fast pods appeared more in ECI areas. Am I correct in thinking that if they move people to the pod then they remove the line from the ECI cabinet and so would lessen crosstalk for the other lines?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: broadstairs on June 06, 2018, 12:09:27 PM
It wouldnt surprise me if ECI consider the software working (given its active in other countries), and have advised openreach to just manage the end user devices connected, and openreach cant/wont do that so a possible standoff, either way, stop hoping and waiting for it people, you will just be disappointed.

Assuming it only affects folks with incompatible devices BT could just enable it and when people complain tell them they have an incompatible modem/router. It worked very well indeed on my line for the couple of months it was on for.

Stuart
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: spring on June 06, 2018, 04:33:44 PM
I don't have upstream G.INP though so not sure it's working perfectly xD

Code: [Select]
Stats recorded 06 Jun 2018 18:38:46

DSLAM type / SW version: IFTN:0xb206 (178.6) / v0xb206
Modem/router firmware:  AnnexA version - A2pv6F039x1.d26a
DSL mode:                VDSL2 Profile 17a
Status:                  Showtime
Uptime:                  3 days 3 hours 37 min 55 sec
Resyncs:                0 (since 06 Jun 2018 18:38:40)

Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB):  10.7 0.0
Signal attenuation (dB): Not available on VDSL2
Connection speed (kbps): 44880 3455
SNR margin (dB):        25.1 19.7
Power (dBm):            -14.9 -15.1
Interleave depth:        1 55
INP:                    44.00 2.00
G.INP:                  Enabled Not enabled
Vectoring status:        5 (VECT_UNCONFIGURED)

RSCorr/RS (%):          0.0000 0.0115
RSUnCorr/RS (%):        0.0000 0.0000
ES/hour:                0 0


                              G.INP Counters

Downstream Upstream
General
rtx_tx          713110          0               
rtx_c            50              0               
rtx_uc          0                0               
LEFTRS          0                0               
minEFTR          44874            0               
errFreeBits      186268556        0               
Bearer 0
RxQueue          34              0               
TxQueue          17              0               
G.INP Framing    18              0               
G.INP Lookback  17              0               
RRC Bits        0                24             
Interleave depth 1                55             
INP              44.00            2.00           
INPRein          0.00            0.00           
Delay            0                2               
Bearer 1
Interleave depth 1                0               
INP              2.50            0.00           
INPRein          2.50            0.00           
Delay            0                0               
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on June 06, 2018, 06:58:44 PM
I don't have upstream G.INP though so not sure it's working perfectly xD

I believe the DSLAM isn't capable of upstream G.INP

I'm sure all the UK FTTC users on ECI cabinets would be happy enough with G.INP on the downstream.
It's not enabled by default on the upstream for Huawei DSLAMs.
Only circuits that exceed an (unknown) upstream error threshold have G.INP applied to the upstream. For most lines this only remains for a few days.

I assume your ISP in Israel allows you to use any modem you like?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on June 10, 2018, 09:35:31 PM
I believe the DSLAM isn't capable of upstream G.INP

I'm sure all the UK FTTC users on ECI cabinets would be happy enough with G.INP on the downstream.
It's not enabled by default on the upstream for Huawei DSLAMs.
Only circuits that exceed an (unknown) upstream error threshold have G.INP applied to the upstream. For most lines this only remains for a few days.

I assume your ISP in Israel allows you to use any modem you like?

Definitely would be happy with downstream only, never had any problems syncing full speed up its just down that has fallen due to crosstalk.  Annoying as even a drop to a 3dB profile would probably restore me to full speed.

Its so frustrating to have once synced at 99/30 to Digital Region, to now be stuck at 69/20 due to crappy BT hardware.  My attainable upstream is still 28, not that I necessarily need it but would be nice to unband upstream.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on June 10, 2018, 10:56:49 PM
I think I remember reading that Digital Region used Alcatel DSLAM's. Do you know what chipset they used?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: spring on June 11, 2018, 10:21:25 AM
I believe the DSLAM isn't capable of upstream G.INP

I'm sure all the UK FTTC users on ECI cabinets would be happy enough with G.INP on the downstream.
It's not enabled by default on the upstream for Huawei DSLAMs.
Only circuits that exceed an (unknown) upstream error threshold have G.INP applied to the upstream. For most lines this only remains for a few days.

I assume your ISP in Israel allows you to use any modem you like?
Yes they allow, I didn't know some countries don't. I read somewhere that some modems only support downstream G.INP, so had thought my ISP decided to stick to what works for everyone. However I just googled and you are right, upstream G.INP is stated as not working. Shame.
There's also newer software that this cab doesn't yet have, probably due to their attitude of "if it ain't broke we'll be lazy". I have a feeling it'll never arrive.

The reason I wanted it on US is for lower delay.

Is G.INP efficiently configured for my line right now?

Code: [Select]
Uptime: 7 days 21 hours 48 min 52 sec
Resyncs: 0 (since 11 Jun 2018 12:48:34)

adsl info --stats
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason:    0
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 35190 Kbps, Downstream rate = 109403 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 3455 Kbps, Downstream rate = 44880 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State:       L0
Mode:                   VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile:          Profile 17a
TPS-TC:                 PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):        25.2            19.6
Attn(dB):        10.7            0.0
Pwr(dBm):       -14.9           -15.1

                        VDSL2 framing
                        Bearer 0
MSGc:           -6              432
B:              235             17
M:              1               1
T:              0               1
R:              14              16
S:              0.0000          0.1569
L:              11951           1734
D:              1               55
I:              250             34
N:              250             34
Q:              8               0
V:              1               0
RxQueue:                34              0
TxQueue:                17              0
G.INP Framing:          18              0
G.INP lookback:         17              0
RRC bits:               0               24
                        Bearer 1
MSGc:           90              -6
B:              0               0
M:              2               0
T:              2               0
R:              16              0
S:              10.6667         0.0000
L:              24              0
D:              1               0
I:              32              0
N:              32              0
Q:              0               0
V:              0               0
RxQueue:                0               0
TxQueue:                0               0
G.INP Framing:          0               0
G.INP lookback:         0               0
RRC bits:               0               0

                        Counters
                        Bearer 0
OHF:            0               712774
OHFErr:         0               0
RS:             3381761384              260908
RSCorr:         280             1160
RSUnCorr:       0               0
                        Bearer 1
OHF:            42534848                0
OHFErr:         0               0
RS:             255208716               0
RSCorr:         0               0
RSUnCorr:       0               0

                        Retransmit Counters
rtx_tx:         713156          0
rtx_c:          96              0
rtx_uc:         0               0

                        G.INP Counters
LEFTRS:         0               0
minEFTR:        44874           0
errFreeBits:    467481887               0

                        Bearer 0
HEC:            0               0
OCD:            0               0
LCD:            0               0
Total Cells:    3132162333              0
Data Cells:     377690881               0
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     0               0

                        Bearer 1
HEC:            0               0
OCD:            0               0
LCD:            0               0
Total Cells:    0               0
Data Cells:     0               0
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     0               0

ES:             0               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            26              26
AS:             683332

                        Bearer 0
INP:            44.00           2.00
INPRein:        0.00            0.00
delay:          0               2
PER:            0.00            17.24
OR:             0.01            203.20
AgR:            44951.38        3657.71

                        Bearer 1
INP:            2.50            0.00
INPRein:        2.50            0.00
delay:          0               0
PER:            16.06           0.01
OR:             47.81           0.01
AgR:            47.81   0.01

Bitswap:        114/114         0/0

Total time = 7 days 21 hours 49 min 18 sec
FEC:            280             1160
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            26              26
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Latest 15 minutes time = 4 min 18 sec
FEC:            0               0
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC:            0               0
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Latest 1 day time = 21 hours 49 min 18 sec
FEC:            10              186
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC:            23              126
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Since Link time = 7 days 21 hours 48 min 51 sec
FEC:            280             1160
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
NTR: mipsCntAtNtr=0 ncoCntAtNtr=0
 >

adsl info --pbParams
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason:    0
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 35190 Kbps, Downstream rate = 109399 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 3455 Kbps, Downstream rate = 44880 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (6,31) (882,1193) (1984,2770)
DS: (33,857) (1218,1959) (2795,4083)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (6,31) (882,1193) (1984,2770)
DS: (41,857) (1218,1959) (2795,4083)
                  VDSL Port Details               Upstream                Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate:           35190 kbps             109399 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power:         -  15.1 dBm            -  14.9 dBm
====================================================================================
  VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 U4 D1 D2 D3
  Line Attenuation(dB): 0.1 10.1 15.1 N/A N/A 6.3 12.7 20.6
Signal Attenuation(dB): 0.1 10.0 14.9 N/A N/A 6.3 12.6 20.6
        SNR Margin(dB): 24.3 20.2 19.1 N/A N/A 25.1 25.2 25.3
         TX Power(dBm): -17.7 -19.1 -27.8 N/A N/A 12.3 8.1 6.8
 >
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on June 11, 2018, 11:39:53 AM
Yes G.INP is efficiently configured on the downstream.

Your upstream is interleaved, but it looks like fairly light interleaving with only a 2ms delay.

Happy to be corrected if I've interpreted those stats incorrectly.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on June 11, 2018, 01:37:39 PM
Whenever an ECI GINP thread is updated I hope it someone posting details of the new rollout.  I do not why I torture myself like this!
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: smallal on June 26, 2018, 09:40:46 AM
Totally agree, it's getting to be the case that Openreach look like they've given up on the ECI front.
They claim the last firmware they tested worked except on a very few routers which still had problems.
So why don't they update the cabs with this firmware, turn G.INP back on & wait to see who moans.
They can then send out replacement routers to these few impacted customers.
Considering how much they charge for the service, a few free routers wouldn't break the bank.
 
Instead they're now torturing us with the G.FAST rollout (or lack of).
They install the street pods but then leave them idle for months.
My exchange still isn't online but the pods were installed almost 6 months ago.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: spring on June 26, 2018, 10:31:56 AM
I don't know if my cab is exactly the same but they left it on, Openreach decided to turn it off to not get calls from people with incapable modems. But 2-3 years later (is it, lazy to check) there wouldn't be as many incapable modems. They don't care.
Also, upstream G.INP on ECI was never enabled for anyone on FTTC (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,21125.msg370191.html#msg370191) (at least, it has remained off due to incapable hardware). This proves ECI cabs have no hope except swapping hardware for that, and this makes me doubt firmwares on the cab itself will fix downstream G.INP for "all modems" [the ones that otherwise work perfectly on Huawei cabs], including all the modems still running with outdated firmware.
Of course they only care about themselves, people with power are even less forced to be good.

Code: [Select]
Stats recorded 26 Jun 2018 12:34:47

DSLAM type / SW version: IFTN:0xb206 (178.6) / v0xb206
Modem/router firmware:  AnnexA version - A2pv6F039x1.d26a
DSL mode:                VDSL2 Profile 17a
Status:                  Showtime
Uptime:                  4 days 5 hours 48 min 53 sec
Resyncs:                0 (since 26 Jun 2018 12:34:43)

Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB):  10.8 0.0
Signal attenuation (dB): Not monitored
Connection speed (kbps): 44880 3455
SNR margin (dB):        25.3 19.3
Power (dBm):            -14.8 -15.0
Interleave depth:        1 55
INP:                    44.00 2.00
G.INP:                  Enabled Not enabled
Vectoring status:        5 (VECT_UNCONFIGURED)

RSCorr/RS (%):          0.0001 0.1095
RSUnCorr/RS (%):        0.0000 0.0000
ES/hour:                0 0

Quote
They claim the last firmware they tested worked except on a very few routers which still had problems.
The same excuse like before. The key word is they don't care because people are "forced" to use their cabs anyway.

I imagine "all of" the other ECI cabs in Israel have G.INP enabled. I'm only using VDSL since August 2017 though, but this thread shows it was enabled in 2017: https://translate.google.com/translate?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hometheater.co.il%2Fvt271090.html
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on June 26, 2018, 01:11:58 PM
That Israeli ISP may not be exclusively using ECI kit, or may be using different ECI kit.

The 1st post that shows G.INP enabled had it on both Downstream/Upstream.

The ECI M41 DSLAM used in the UK doesn't support upstream G.INP.

The Israeli user on these forums connected to the same ECI DSLAM we use in the UK only has G.INP on the downstream.

edit: you, half asleep lol.

They may have a mix of M41's and V41's or might also use other vendors. Very unlikely they are all M41's.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: spring on June 26, 2018, 01:22:37 PM
My cab was installed in 2015, but is there a way to check what model it is?

Do some modems not work if upstream G.INP is enabled? Or it automatically adapts to incapable modems [unlike on downstream G.INP]?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on June 26, 2018, 02:04:52 PM
adsl info --vendor

Shows the vendor and the DSLAM firmware.
Yours matches the UK ECI DSLAM firmware numbers.

If the modem supports downstream G.INP only and the DSLAM supports both then only downstream will be enabled.**

Your modem supports both up/down G.INP but only down is enabled on the upstream. This fits with your ECI DSLAM only supporting downstream G.INP.

** During the Huawei G.INP rollout modems that didn't support upstream G.INP caused problems where very high interleaving was enabled. OpenReach did a bit of a fudge to fix this (aka G.INP mk2).
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on July 03, 2018, 01:01:54 AM
So why they don't they update the cabs with this firmware, turn G.INP back on & wait to see who moans.
They can then send out replacement routers to these few impacted customers.
Considering how much they charge for the service, a few free routers wouldn't break the bank.


My guess is the argument is between openreach and the CPs is who will pay for these new modems or some other issue that has financial implications.  There is likely some kind of standoff somewhere on how to deal with these few problem end users, hence no rollout.

If openreach enforced a modem lock down then they wouldnt be in this position.  Although they would also be liable to switch out modems they issued that are incompatible.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: pxr5 on October 07, 2018, 02:39:17 PM
Someone on the BT forums is reporting downstream G.INP on an ECI cab. Nothing confirmed though.

https://community.bt.com/t5/BT-Fibre-broadband/BT-Home-Hub-6-amp-G-INP-On-ECI-Cabinets/m-p/1886317#M277443
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: dee.jay on October 07, 2018, 03:07:03 PM
Interesting but I'll not hold my breath. I do have access to a modem on an ECI cabinet, so will keep an eye on the stats.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on October 07, 2018, 04:59:20 PM
I have been hoping that BTOR had continued to work on this but I have to agree I am not getting my hopes up until we get some unofficial news from the VIP forum members who may know more or if more people start to report Ginp being enabled.  If Ginp is enabled hopefully 3db will follow.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Ixel on October 08, 2018, 04:56:14 PM
Neither of my lines are reporting G.INP at the moment, however I will say the following as it may bear some importance.

Recently both of my lines went down simultaneously around just after midnight, at the time I thought it was just a simple connection loss of some type. However, looking at the upstream stats I can see that the DSLAM appears to have been rebooted, I say this because my upstream all-time stat counters are pretty much reset. It's possible that a change or firmware update was applied perhaps, but obviously I can't confirm this. It's highly unusual for a DSLAM to be rebooted however.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: dee.jay on October 08, 2018, 05:02:16 PM
Very interesting - I'll keep an eye on the ECI connected modem I have access to.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Jon21 on October 09, 2018, 12:44:39 PM
Neither of my lines are reporting G.INP at the moment, however I will say the following as it may bear some importance.

Recently both of my lines went down simultaneously around just after midnight, at the time I thought it was just a simple connection loss of some type. However, looking at the upstream stats I can see that the DSLAM appears to have been rebooted, I say this because my upstream all-time stat counters are pretty much reset. It's possible that a change or firmware update was applied perhaps, but obviously I can't confirm this. It's highly unusual for a DSLAM to be rebooted however.

The 1312-B10A I'm now using reports this:

DSLAM type / SW version:   IFTN:0xd086 (208.134) / v0xd086

Is the "(208.134)" the firmware version? Be interesting to see if anyone has a different version.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: dee.jay on October 09, 2018, 12:56:35 PM
Code: [Select]
DSLAM type / SW version: IFTN:0xb206 (178.6) / v0xb206
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: jaydub on October 09, 2018, 01:05:39 PM
DSLAM type / SW version:   IFTN:0xb206 (178.6) / v0xb206
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on October 09, 2018, 01:17:55 PM
ECI have 2 "firmware" versions.
0xd086 (208.134) and 0xb206 (178.6)

Ixel (posting above) has 2 lines on the same ECI DSLAM.
1st line shows 1 version (0xd086) and the 2nd line shows the other version (0xb206). Could be 2 different types of line card, no idea.

The reported firmware version won't necessarily change with the reintroduction of G.INP.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Ixel on October 09, 2018, 02:35:19 PM
Indeed, the reattempt at G.INP might not necessarily mean we'll see a change in firmware version. Something else could be being done in order to prepare, assuming it's related to a reattempt of G.INP at all.

At a previous address I had two lines, one of which was on 0xb206 and the other was on 0xd086. Two different line cards on the same DSLAM. The 0xd086 performed better than the 0xb206 back when I was at the previous address, but everyone's experiences can vary.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: roseway on October 09, 2018, 02:45:30 PM
The numbers in brackets are just the decimal conversions of the hex number in front. So to take Jon21's example above, d0(hex) = 208, 86(hex) = 134
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on October 09, 2018, 04:09:07 PM
Never seen the 208.134 version before I wonder if this is an indication of something happening.

I am still at IFTN:0xb206 (178.6) / v0xb206
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on October 09, 2018, 04:37:58 PM
Never seen the 208.134 version before I wonder if this is an indication of something happening.

I am still at IFTN:0xb206 (178.6) / v0xb206
208.134 / 0xd086 has been around for over 2 years

https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,18140.msg329379.html#msg329379 (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,18140.msg329379.html#msg329379)

edit: 3 years
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15699.msg294430.html#msg294430

Unrelated to anything new and more likely related to the type of linecard.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: celso on January 11, 2020, 10:38:26 PM
Any news?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: burakkucat on January 11, 2020, 11:06:46 PM
Any news?

Other than that Openreach no longer install any ECI kit (be it OLT, ONT, DSLAM or MSAN), no, no news.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on February 13, 2020, 03:19:57 AM
OMG pigs are possibly flying......

I thought all hope was lost.

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/02/openreach-uk-trial-finally-brings-g-inp-to-eci-fttc-broadband.html
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on February 13, 2020, 03:53:09 AM
I am very surprised this is still ongoing.  Maybe revived due to the fact g.fast take up has been hideous.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on February 13, 2020, 10:18:26 AM
Must be good news for those on ECI cabinets and also Kitz too.

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/02/openreach-uk-trial-finally-brings-g-inp-to-eci-fttc-broadband.html
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Bowdon on February 13, 2020, 02:05:51 PM
I'm on an ECI cabinet and speeds have been gradually dropping over time. They especially dropped when the next door neighbour joined FTTC. I think their phone wire uses the same cable mine does from the pole to the house (its a semi detached building). I lost about 15Mbps because of that. I'm at 54Mbps. If this can get me back in to the 60s I'd be happy.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on February 13, 2020, 02:58:49 PM
When Ginp was working on ECI many years ago it certainly gave me a good 10% jump in sync speed but it is all dependant on a shortish line/disturbers.

You also have to remember that Ginp *may* also lead to 3db targets which should also give a further 10% increase again all dependant on a shortish line/disturbers.

This is good news but i wouldn't get our hopes up yet we have been given false hope before.

I would certainly trial but I guess it will be just random cabinets selected I assume.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: celso on February 13, 2020, 04:36:16 PM
Hope it works. I'm on fastpath again (~73Mbps, 4-5ms ping to London servers), but it usually goes back to interleaved after 2-4 months :-/
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on February 14, 2020, 04:57:44 AM
Thanks max

I notice it said trial and that it requires the ISP to opt in.  Would be nice if we did get it back as it could be a nice little boost compared to a line being interleaved, but I won't hold my breath just yet.    xdB would certainly be nice if that follows.

It's interesting to note that over the past month or so, Openreach appear to have been playing with the amount of errors (and/or type of errors) that it takes before interleaving is applied.  There's a few ECI lines which have been interleaved over the past few months which don't follow the rules as we know them.

@Bowden - same here.  My immediate neighbour switching from adsl2+ to FTTC cost me a very large chunk of speed.  Cant recall the exact amount now without going to check, but something like 10-12 Mbps. 
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on February 14, 2020, 08:13:10 AM
I wonder if my line being below the handback threshold would push Plusnet into opting in?

Incidentally, does 3dB on ECI actually mean 3dB or is it more like 3.8dB?  Because with the Lantiq adjustment to SNRm that seems to be as low as either of my lines will go, frustrating as my Zen line could have full sync if it would push a little lower.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: broadstairs on February 14, 2020, 08:32:20 AM
When G.INP was turned on originally on my ECI cabinet it worked perfectly for me. Been interlaced more or less permanently since it was turned off!

Stuart
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Weaver on February 14, 2020, 12:12:46 PM
@Bowdon as you’re aware, I use IP-bonded lines; it works superbly and I thoroughly recommend it if you’re sufficiently fed up with your speed. Unfortunately we all knew there was going to be a honeymoon with FTTC, as you say, until your neighbour eventually goes for it especially. Still that doesn’t help with the gnawing feeling of disappointment I’m sure; not that I know, as I’ve never even seen FTTC.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on February 14, 2020, 12:16:15 PM
I wonder if my line being below the handback threshold would push Plusnet into opting in?

Incidentally, does 3dB on ECI actually mean 3dB or is it more like 3.8dB?  Because with the Lantiq adjustment to SNRm that seems to be as low as either of my lines will go, frustrating as my Zen line could have full sync if it would push a little lower.

It won't go lower because your line is banded.

With the right Lantiq modern you can go below 3dB.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on February 14, 2020, 02:14:47 PM


There's a few ECI lines which have been interleaved over the past few months which don't follow the rules as we know them.
My ECI lime no longer uses 2880 ES / 20 resyncs per day it seems to be dependant on SES also now.  If you get enough SES you end up on interleave even if you only have 500ES and 0 resyncs.  It is very annoying as I have to wait 14 days for it to be removed.  Basically a few seconds of SES and you have a reduced speed line for 14d.  Hopefully GINP will help so I really do hope GINP is coming.

I hope we get to see some people posting when they notice ECI GINP on their lines.  I still miss MDWS.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on February 14, 2020, 03:04:16 PM
It won't go lower because your line is banded.

With the right Lantiq modern you can go below 3dB.

I figured as much, but why would the line be banded in the first place?  I don't think I've ever synced at this speed before, went from full speed to much lower and its still on fastpath.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: factorial on February 14, 2020, 10:51:47 PM
Hope it works. I'm on fastpath again (~73Mbps, 4-5ms ping to London servers), but it usually goes back to interleaved after 2-4 months :-/

Same here. Hoping with toes, fingers and eyes crossed it comes to my cab as BT have some SERIOUS geographic issues with their cab locations (I have a cab within 30m of my house, but the one I'm connected to is ~600m away!), and while I initially started with FastPath, I'm now below the minimum handback threshold with a massive interleave both up and down.

To add insult to injury, both cabs are G.Fast-enabled. Argh!
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on February 15, 2020, 12:15:41 AM
If this is ISP 100,000 lines opt in how can this possibly work - wouldn"t this be a cabinet not specific line setting? The last time it was enabled we had to wait for the cabinet having it enabled and then everyone on that cabinet had ginp?  Confused?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: CarlT on February 15, 2020, 09:27:40 AM
DLM doesn't do the same thing to every line on a cabinet.

Because a cabinet can do something doesn't mean it will for every line - remember CPs can request specific profiles: this is a new one.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: burakkucat on February 15, 2020, 04:40:58 PM
Confused?

I suspect you are confusing G.Inp (ITU-T G.998.4) with G.Vector (ITU-T G.993.5). The former, as CarlT has pointed out, can be per line (circuit) but the latter is either all lines (circuits) per DSLAM or none.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on February 15, 2020, 10:39:46 PM
Yes you are correct I should stop posting in the middle of the night :)

I guess we may see some cabinets getting updated with new software unless they are already all updated.

I wonder if we will find out which isps are accepting trialists and whether you can volunteer?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on February 16, 2020, 03:38:37 PM
They may have already been updated. 
I had an overnight outage about 5/6 wks ago.  Only noticed because I was streaming something at the time.  If that's what it was, it didn't take long.

If like previous trials it wont be anything that you as a consumer can select to opt into.   
The ISP decides if they want to participate and then that usually includes all their customers using that product.   I suppose it depends if they think it will be advantageous and/or if it will incur any additional workload.   
Plusnet usually opt in to most trials, but it's not always a foregone conclusion - for some reason they didn't for the initial 'x'dB trial.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on February 16, 2020, 06:18:20 PM
My mate was enabled 61.5Mbps as I thought he would easily get around 72Mbps but until I checked his green cabinet it was ECI - and he is with Plusnet ISP so I told him to ask Plusnet tomorrow to get option in trial of G.INP to get it enabled
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on February 16, 2020, 10:39:51 PM
and the standard reps probably wont have a clue :(

1) The trial hasn't started yet.
2) We don't even know if any ISPs have yet opted in - or even been accepted to opt in as it's still too early. The opt in decisions are taken at a much higher level than CS/TS and we as consumers have little influence.
3) It will be on a ISP basis and not by line - backed up by the number which they anticipate will be on the trial.   Sometimes they do a by line basis trails which is usually restricted to say staff members and that figure is a lot less than 100k .

If they opt in, then we will find out eventually in a month or so.
As Carl has already said the DLM works on profiles which does allow for specific ISP profiles.   The easiest way I can think how to compare it which you may understand, is similar to how an ISP can select 'Speed' or 'Standard' and that then becomes default for all their customers.


Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ejs on February 17, 2020, 06:10:50 PM
https://community.plus.net/t5/Fibre-Broadband/ECI-Cabinets/td-p/1708051
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on February 18, 2020, 06:10:05 AM
AAISP have kindly took this up the chain at my request to see what info they can get.

With both BTw and TTB.

Same here. Hoping with toes, fingers and eyes crossed it comes to my cab as BT have some SERIOUS geographic issues with their cab locations (I have a cab within 30m of my house, but the one I'm connected to is ~600m away!), and while I initially started with FastPath, I'm now below the minimum handback threshold with a massive interleave both up and down.

To add insult to injury, both cabs are G.Fast-enabled. Argh!

Know the feeling, I have a cab across the road from me, at a guess maybe 5-10m from pole.  But I am connected to one about 370m away.

The reason for these oddities in that the coverage for each cabinet is not a circle it is more like a D shape.  So basically half a circle, one side of the cabinet would be connected to another cabinet and the other side to that cabinet.    Sometimes it might be even less radius than half a circle like nearer quarter of a circle.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on February 18, 2020, 06:39:58 AM
I have asked AAISP to opt in, they have queried TTB and BTw to try and get some information on it.  So I expect they will opt-in if the option is open to them.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on February 18, 2020, 06:47:24 AM
My ECI lime no longer uses 2880 ES / 20 resyncs per day it seems to be dependant on SES also now.  If you get enough SES you end up on interleave even if you only have 500ES and 0 resyncs.  It is very annoying as I have to wait 14 days for it to be removed.  Basically a few seconds of SES and you have a reduced speed line for 14d.  Hopefully GINP will help so I really do hope GINP is coming.

I hope we get to see some people posting when they notice ECI GINP on their lines.  I still miss MDWS.


There has been a DLM adjustment unfortunately, we don't know quite know what it is, but SES is certainly a possibility.

I think the industry has decided to move to a lower expectations model which in turn leads to less fault reports and ultimately less hassle for CP's.  When the competition is selling 100s of mbits/sec, I think the difference between say a 50mbit speed and 60mbit speed isnt going to materially affect churn when compared to say 300mbit/sec.

If I am right, it explains the more conservative ECI DLM, the lower fault thresholds, the lower estimates, it will all make sense and also remember Openreach are crippled by Ofcom regulation with the revenue they can earn so it has led to a lower QoS from them.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on February 18, 2020, 06:59:29 AM
I have asked AAISP to opt in, they have queried TTB and BTw to try and get some information on it.  So I expect they will opt-in if the option is open to them.

Info is available here if you want to pass the link on.   Unfortunately you need an Openreach log in to be able to read it :(

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/newlogin.do?smauthreason=0&target=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openreach.co.uk%2Forpg%2Fcustomerzone%2Fupdates%2Fbriefings%2Fnga%2Fnga00820.pdf&fromMasterHead=1
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on February 18, 2020, 07:07:04 AM
Thanks Kitz, I will pass it onto Shaun.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on February 18, 2020, 08:43:56 AM
YVW

There has been a DLM adjustment unfortunately, we don't know quite know what it is, but SES is certainly a possibility.

I think the industry has decided to move to a lower expectations model which in turn leads to less fault reports and ultimately less hassle for CP's.  When the competition is selling 100s of mbits/sec, I think the difference between say a 50mbit speed and 60mbit speed isnt going to materially affect churn when compared to say 300mbit/sec.

If I am right, it explains the more conservative ECI DLM, the lower fault thresholds, the lower estimates, it will all make sense and also remember Openreach are crippled by Ofcom regulation with the revenue they can earn so it has led to a lower QoS from them.

I'm not certain what is going on, but not sure if its just linked to SES either... as the day I have interleaving applied after the 25 Err Sec spike was also just 25 for the whole day.       
What I do know is that they have been trialling a new system since Sept last year,  which appears to be more temporal than the existing/previous 24hr period... and is possibly catching very large CRC bursts that may occur in a short(er) time frame.   I'm trying to do more digging and if I do find out any info I will let you know.

Penalising a line for a single 25 second really bad noise spike which was ok for the rest of the day seems like overkill.   It 'may' not be as much of a bad thing to apply RS encoding to lines with a large amount of CRC in a short time frame to a line which has the benefit of re-tx... but seems a tad unfair and harsh to those of us on ECI's who don't have g.inp as a first line defence mechanism against noise.
   
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on February 18, 2020, 09:59:39 AM
Info is available here if you want to pass the link on.   Unfortunately you need an Openreach log in to be able to read it :(

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/newlogin.do?smauthreason=0&target=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openreach.co.uk%2Forpg%2Fcustomerzone%2Fupdates%2Fbriefings%2Fnga%2Fnga00820.pdf&fromMasterHead=1 (https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/newlogin.do?smauthreason=0&target=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openreach.co.uk%2Forpg%2Fcustomerzone%2Fupdates%2Fbriefings%2Fnga%2Fnga00820.pdf&fromMasterHead=1)

Does anyone can copy and paste here if they do have openreach to logged in. Hate it when they hidden (not shown to the public)

Please do not do this - roseway

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on February 18, 2020, 10:01:14 AM
I'm still waiting for interleave to be removed since my last SES spike but I am monitoring my line and when it gets applied again I am expecting a SES burst the day before.  It may be some other criterion but SES seems to be the most obvious at the moment.

Back to the ECI ginp trial what is going to be infuriating is if he trial fails again knowing that with a click of a button at Openreach end you can have ginp on eci lines.  It should be made an option that the end user can turn on off.  Add the option for the customer to set target db from 3db whilst they are at it :)

I hope there is at least one Kitz user on the trial to report back information.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on February 18, 2020, 10:02:37 AM
My mate on plusnet has requested for a trial on his ECI cabinet. I asked him to join this forum.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on February 18, 2020, 10:21:29 AM
I posted on the forum too to request consideration for the trial.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Ronski on February 18, 2020, 03:49:29 PM
Does anyone can copy and paste here if they do have openreach to logged in. Hate it when they hidden (not shown to the public)

That would almost certainly be in breach of the terms and conditions of the users account, and could cause issues for kitz if it was posted here.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Weaver on February 19, 2020, 06:54:45 AM
Did AA get anything back from BT yet?

This is going to bring a lot of happiness to long, long suffering people. In fact what has it been, five years ?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: CarlT on February 19, 2020, 02:25:18 PM
Yeah as mentioned breaching NDAs like that is a bad idea.

It's absolutely none of our business what Openreach do behind their login wall any more than it's our business what other companies are discussing internally or with their customers even if those customers in turn use their products to sell services to us.

At best it would cause disciplinary action and at worst a job being lost.

This'll probably be made clearer once BT Wholesale have briefed their customers. That's usually when things become clearer as by then things tend to be less 'confidential'.

Either way it doesn't really matter. We know what's happening so details not so necessary. The new FTTP pricing stuff is far more interesting.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on February 19, 2020, 04:36:04 PM
The new FTTP pricing stuff is far more interesting.

Speaking of, its kinda weird that they implement the changes a week before the end of the financial year so the activation price is cheaper for that whole week before going up.

Why would you complicate things like that rather than just delaying the new pricing/packages to the week later?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on February 19, 2020, 05:40:28 PM
I've managed to get hold of my DLM MTBE data and by comparing with my own stats obtained from my router, I can confirm that for all days bar one that the Openreach MTBE data matches up with my MTBE calculations (give or take 1 or 2 err secs) which would imply DLM is still using the same MTBE parameters and is only using ErrSecs.

The one day which had a difference was actually in my favour.   DLM recorded MTBE of 3500 whilst my modem captured MTBE 1630.    I was a bit puzzled by this at first especially as there was no data recorded either a couple of days previously.    So either DLM didn't capture the whole days data... or....this unrecorded data may have been discarded to a Wide Area Event.   

Wide Area Events do appear to work on my cab as there have been two instances where I know I have definitely gone into ILQ red, yet DLM has discarded the data and taken no action.   One during a thunderstorm and the other where iirc there was a period of errors after some sort of power outage.

 

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on February 19, 2020, 06:03:06 PM
The above calculations do not explain why we are seeing some instances of oddness where a few lines have had DLM action taken at a ludicrously low rate of errors.
 
In other news I can however confirm that Openreach are playing and looking at employing a temporal DLM which has been up for trials since Sept last year.  This info is in the public domain (https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefingsarticles/nga02719.do) so I am not giving away trade secrets.   

Temporal DLMs do not run for a 24hr period and may only record data during either certain times of the day or may run for differing time periods.  (with the same params).  The idea of temporal DLMs is to increase stability for lines whose 24hr period MTBE is in effect negated by large parts of the rest of the day without errors.

Please note it is very important that this is/was a smallish trial and not in general use yet.  Only a tiny portion of lines are on the trial and that is only if your ISP is one of those elected to go on the trial.     
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on February 22, 2020, 10:25:05 AM
Does anyone know which locations may be covered with this trial?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on February 22, 2020, 05:35:04 PM
Does anyone know which locations may be covered with this trial?

We literally know nothing about how the trial will work.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on February 22, 2020, 11:41:02 PM
Bob Pullen's said that PN is applying for the trial but no promises.   
There's a thread on the PN forum (https://community.plus.net/t5/Fibre-Broadband/ECI-Cabinets/td-p/1708051/page/2) where people who are interested are putting down their names.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on February 23, 2020, 07:20:23 AM
Wow, do you know if other providers do something similar? I'm with ee at the moment, will need to check their forum.

Edit,
Asked on ee forum, they didn't even know about trial....  :o
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on February 23, 2020, 01:32:36 PM
Edit,
Asked on ee forum, they didn't even know about trial....  :o

No surprise that front line support don't know about these things.

I wouldn't be surprised if the first Bob Pullen knew about the trial was when it was raised on the Plusnet forum.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on February 23, 2020, 06:52:19 PM
Did AA get anything back from BT yet?

This is going to bring a lot of happiness to long, long suffering people. In fact what has it been, five years ?

I havent heard anything, but that doesnt mean they havent heard anything, as there maybe NDA's etc.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: g3uiss on February 23, 2020, 06:59:49 PM
I understood it was by cab, therefore if a cab is enabled is it then broken down by ISP and then even by user ? In the last trial I think it went out across most if not all ISP,s
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on February 23, 2020, 08:25:43 PM
G.inp roll out was a 2 step process and was nationwide
   
1) Cab software update and set new DLM profile option.
Once all cabs were updated
2) G.inp applied to individual line's DLM profile.
Those updates were done in batches - not specific to cab or ISP - but it took a while, due to the large number of lines which needed updating. 

----

Trials are usually done on an ISP realm basis and ISPs are invited to opt in to any trials that they wish to participate in.
AIUI there may be a couple of different types of trial.

In this particular instance all of the cabs will already be loaded with all the new profile.   The DSLAM has lots of different profiles which it can apply to a line.
When it comes to DLM, the ISP selects the default profile used at the DSLAM ie speed/standard/stable/custom...  so those who are trialling will simply be moved over to a new custom test profile.   
 

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on February 23, 2020, 09:40:45 PM
Does that mean that lines will go on interleave once they switch profile or g.inp will just kick in.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on February 24, 2020, 03:14:57 PM
They are likely to be testing the entire system, so I would expect initially interleaving, followed by g.inp if the DLM see's fit to do the switch.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Dave2150 on February 25, 2020, 11:04:12 PM
Excellent news, looking forward to regaining G.INP, hopefully this time for good!
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on February 27, 2020, 09:36:23 AM
Spoke with ee staff, they still wasn't able to confirm if ee opt in for trial, however they asked me for my details and they told me that if ee will be in the trial they will try to put me in.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: g3uiss on February 27, 2020, 07:08:52 PM
I’m sure from previous trials that the number of lines will be relatively small. Perhaps a slightly better odds than winning the lottery but perhaps not that much  ;D
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on February 27, 2020, 11:06:39 PM
I personally think that if ISP will chose volunteers they can expect decent feedback, as I believe these who want to be included in trial they are prepared for it so at least we will not have a problem with incompatible equipment  ;)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on February 28, 2020, 10:23:24 AM
 :'(

I outlined their usual methods of trials above.  This is trialling 100k ECI lines via ISP opt in.

As mentioned above in both this thread and the other thread.. this usually means that the ISP offers their userbase as whole who are on certain products.  Standard procedure is:

 - The ISP emails the named contact in the briefing saying they wish to opt in.   
 - Openreach then [randomly] selects how many circuits they wish to use from that ISP's user-base.   
 - The ISP can then if they wish ask Openreach to provide them with a list which lines have been selected to be on the trial. 
 - The ISP can vet this list and ask Openreach to make adjustments.

Occasionally smaller trials are conducted of say just a few hundred lines and in those cases the ISP gets to put forward certain circuits they select, which are usually ISP staff lines.     

In view of the fact of the numbers involved for the trial and that it says it is ISP opt in, indicates to me that it is Openreach random selection from those ISPs which offer to opt in.   This is why I said ~2 weeks ago that it may be a waste of time asking your ISP to put your line forward if it's an ISP opt in trial. 

This isn't a particularly small trial - in fact its probably a good chunk of all ECI lines.    I haven't a clue how many ECI lines there are.  Last I heard there were ~8k cabs in 2013 and they mostly stopped installing ECI's after 2014.. but lets go wild by saying there are 10k ECI cabs and each DSLAM is mostly full, then that is 200k ECI lines.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on February 28, 2020, 11:08:20 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if the first Bob Pullen knew about the trial was when it was raised on the Plusnet forum.

If anyone would know, then it would likely be Bob.   It's been part of his remit for the past few years to be aware of what's going on and even have a say in such things.   
Bob moved away from general CS support, up and beyond years ago, although perhaps you wouldn't think so as he still sticks his nose into the forums as I think he still has to be very aware of what's going on there too.     Officially speaking, I believe he's no longer 'Plusnet' and has more recently moved over to the dark side... yet still overseeing parts of what PN do.   
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on February 28, 2020, 11:22:37 AM


:'(

I outlined their usual methods of trials above.  This is trialling 100k ECI lines via ISP opt in.

I am sure I posted this with a reply yesterday evening perhaps I didn't click submit!
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on March 09, 2020, 11:02:12 AM
Has anyone heard back from any ISPs saying they are definitely putting their customers on the trial? 

Can't wait to see if come Thursday if anyone here gets on the trial. 

OR can reset my line off interleave and give me Ginp on Thursday morning it is due to be removed around that time anyway ;)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on March 09, 2020, 11:31:09 AM
My ISP Zen told me at this time that they were not taking part sadly for me..
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on March 09, 2020, 11:44:30 AM
Has anyone heard back from any ISPs saying they are definitely putting their customers on the trial? 

Can't wait to see if come Thursday if anyone here gets on the trial. 

OR can reset my line off interleave and give me Ginp on Thursday morning it is due to be removed around that time anyway ;)

Did I miss something? What's happening Thursday?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on March 09, 2020, 12:26:39 PM
Did I miss something? What's happening Thursday?

Hopefully a new trial of Ginp on ECI cabinets will start.  Full announcement in OP.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on March 10, 2020, 03:28:19 AM
Ah.
I took any date with a pinch of salt and browsed right past it.

I'd be surprised to see examples of Retx on day 1 of the trial.
Would be nice to see OpenReach beat my low expectations of them on this though,
Previous ECI Retx trials leave me a little sceptical  :D
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on March 10, 2020, 09:14:03 AM
Completely agree but I can dream that the outcome will be more positive this time :)

OR could have completely given up but they haven't they deserve some credit for this.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on March 10, 2020, 09:50:08 PM
EE didn't confirmed, but they asked for my details, so we will see on (from) Thursday if something change.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on March 11, 2020, 03:18:43 AM
Plusnet told forum as they start this next week to move this forward for some of ECI customers to take trial of G.INP not every customers.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 11, 2020, 03:49:42 AM
bobpullen
Quote
I've relayed everybody's interest and hope for there to be some movement next week 🙂
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on March 13, 2020, 06:47:43 PM
bobpullen
Quote
Too late to the party I'm afraid Sad

I'll keep you in mind for any further activity though.

Seem I was correct as not everyones taking part of this. Very limit one.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on March 13, 2020, 10:49:47 PM
No its not a very limited one -  As mentioned in the other thread (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,21320.msg411253.html#msg411253) the trial is for 100k lines via ISP opt in.

Read Bobs post carefully

Quote
ISP's aren't offering 10-30 lines each, you're reading between the lines. What we won't be doing though, is running this as an open trial. There isn't a team, nor the capacity to faciliate it, and I don't think it's a good fit for this type of activity anyway.

I simply noted the interest and pulled a favour, because in low numbers, I think some open discussion here could be of benefit
.

I think I can possibly take a good stab at what Bob did, based on the fact that the submitted lines didn't appear to go in until very last minute. 
ISP opt ins have to be in well before the start of the trial date so it gives the ISP time to vet the OR selected list and make adjustments.

Bob is far from stupid and will realise that certain PN customers do have access to full stats so are more likely to notice changes than say Sky customers.   He is aware that much of the problems with G.INP Mk1 was spotted by users of this forum, MDWS and feed back also on the PN community site.  Bob was heavily involved in reporting the G.INP Mk1 fiasco to Openreach..  who were totally blind and oblivious to it until he raised it...  so hopefully those on the trial will report any findings in the thread as he requested.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on March 14, 2020, 04:03:46 AM
I have had no further updates from AAISP which doesnt bode well.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on March 14, 2020, 10:32:13 AM
Thats sad  :(

The more people on the trial who have access to decent stats the better IMHO.     I doubt the average [say Sky] user using an SP provided modem would notice what's going on.    Probably those who benefit the most will be those with error correction and interleaving who should see more of an immediate benefit.   I don't have error protection atm, but it would be nice if I no longer had to worry about my daily spike landing me with interleaving.
I'd also be interested to see how much of a difference g.inp does make to my daily dose of SHINE..   as in reality g.inp isn't very good protection against SHINE type noise.    Also my line stats have changed quite a bit since G.INP Mk1 when I used to easily get 80Mbps, but I didn't see much difference to the max headline rate.   I'm now hit by crosstalk and my days of 80Mbps are long gone...  so whilst I'm not expecting much of a speed improvement, I am hoping this opens the gateway to 'x'dB. 
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on March 17, 2020, 02:38:28 AM
First person has enabled G.INP from Plusnet ISP just now from PN forum

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on March 17, 2020, 08:44:19 AM
I lost the lottery I had a resync this morning it has removed my interleaving but no Ginp :(
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 17, 2020, 09:13:31 AM
It seems to have tanked my SNRm even further, although at least the latency is much better.

I wonder if I'd be better off ditching Lantiq and going back to the Broadcom for this?

Code: [Select]
Chipset: Lantiq™ XWAY™ VRX268
Firmware Version: 5.8.1.8.1.6
API Version: 4.17.18.6
MEI Version: 1.5.17.6
Power Management Mode: L0 - Synchronized
Line State: UP [0x801: showtime_tc_sync]
Line Uptime: 7h 19m 6s
Resyncs: 4
DSLAM/MSAN VID:
XTSE Capabilities: 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x2
Annex: B
Line Mode: G.993.2 (VDSL2)
Profile: 17a
Trellis: D: ON / U: ON
Bitswap: D: ON / U: ON
G.INP: D: Enabled / U: Not Enabled
Virtual Noise Support: D: Not Supported / U: Not Supported
Attain Data Rate: 55.291 Mb/s / 20.384 Mb/s
Actual Data Rate: 61.020 Mb/s / 20.000 Mb/s
Impulse Noise Prot: 45.7 sym / 0.0 sym
Interleave Delay: 0.23 ms / 0.0 ms
NFEC: 32 / 255
RFEC: 16 / 16
LSYMB: 16 / 5410
Interleave Depth: 1 / 1
Interleave Block: 32 / 255
LPATH: 0 / 0
Line Attenuation: 12.3dB / 15.0dB
Signal Attenuation: 12.3dB / 14.9dB
Noise Margin: 4.6dB / 6.0dB
Transmit power: 14.0dBm / 5.7dBm
FECS: 0 / 199
ES: 25 / 34265
SES: 0 / 124
LOSS: 5 / 0
UAS: 141 / 141
HEC: 0 / 0
CRC_P: 0 / 0
CRCP_P: 0 / 0
15m Code Violations: 0 / 2
15m FEC Errors: 0 / 3
1d Code Violations: 1 / 48
1d FEC Errors: 41 / 239
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on March 17, 2020, 09:22:55 AM
If your lantiq works good, I wouldn't bother, especially that you got g.inp compatible fw on it, and already g.inp on.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: gentoo on March 17, 2020, 10:14:04 AM
G.INP was applied to my line last night, max data rate increased by 7Mbps ping reduced 10ms unfortunately I'm unable to harvest my error stats as I'm using a Smarthub 6 but still very happy with the initial results….
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on March 17, 2020, 10:19:20 AM
It show that plusnet do care for their customers for G. Inp trial while other isps don't
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on March 17, 2020, 11:01:26 AM
I wish I tried for the trial but didn't want to risk problems with my line even though it seemed to work fine for the short amount of time I had it the last time they tried.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on March 17, 2020, 11:03:30 AM
Plusnet have done a good thing here especially after the recent posts of the so called premium isps not really doing anything more (perhaps even less) for their customers when they have problems with their line.  Thumbs up Plusnet!
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on March 17, 2020, 12:42:36 PM
Resync'd at 01:00 this morning which increased my Sync Speed by 2Mbps.

Stats one hour before resync.

Code: [Select]
This information shows the latest ONGOING stats obtained at 00:00 on 17/03/2020


Downstream      Upstream                                        Downstream      Upstream

 
            Sync (kbps)    66037         20000                           Interleaving          1             1
 Attainable rate (kbps)    66100         25329                                    INP       0.00          0.00
       Attenuation (dB)      0.0           0.0
        SNR Margin (dB)      6.3           9.2
           Power (dBmV)      6.4           6.3                            SES (total)        154             0
RSUnCorr errors (delta)        0             0                RSUnCorr errors (total)          0             0
Errored seconds (delta)        0             0                Errored seconds (total)       2595          1441
       Bitswaps (delta)        0             0                       Bitswaps (total)       3608            92
     CRC errors (delta)        0             0                     CRC errors (total)      81819          1557
     HEC errors (delta)        0             0                     HEC errors (total)      31022             0
     FEC errors (delta)        0             0                     FEC errors (total)          0         16808
 __________________________________________________



Stats immediately after resync

Code: [Select]
=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= Plink log 2020.03.17 01:04:06 =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=

adsl info --stats
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason:    1
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 25163 Kbps, Downstream rate = 67547 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 68019 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State:       L0
Mode:                   VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile:          Profile 17a
TPS-TC:                 PTM Mode
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):        6.3             9.3
Attn(dB):        0.0             0.0
Pwr(dBm):        6.6             6.6

                        VDSL2 framing
                        Bearer 0
MSGc:           -6              150
B:              243             236
M:              1               1
T:              0               5
R:              6               16
S:              0.1142          0.3771
L:              17509           5410
D:              1               1
I:              250             255
N:              250             255
Q:              8               0
V:              0               0
RxQueue:                54              0
TxQueue:                18              0
G.INP Framing:          18              0
G.INP lookback:         18              0
RRC bits:               0               24
                        Bearer 1
MSGc:           154             -6
B:              0               0
M:              2               0
T:              2               0
R:              16              0
S:              6.4000          0.0000
L:              40              0
D:              3               0
I:              32              0
N:              32              0
Q:              0               0
V:              0               0
RxQueue:                0               0
TxQueue:                0               0
G.INP Framing:          0               0
G.INP lookback:         0               0
RRC bits:               0               0





Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on March 17, 2020, 01:54:13 PM
As an aside my throughput speed doesnt seem to have changed to reflect the increase in sync.   Not sure if PN need to update their profile.

My IPprofile at the w/e was 63.92 but I can't get a current figure from the BTw tester which is saying no data.


---------------
ETA
PN now updated my PN profile throughput now better :)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on March 17, 2020, 02:59:08 PM
After reading responses on the Plusnet forums I wish I tried to get on the trial myself now (see post #18 for link). 
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Jon21 on March 17, 2020, 04:58:14 PM
Has it just been people that are using Plusnet that have had G.INP applied? Not noticed anything with Sky. But would guess it would be done in batches?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on March 17, 2020, 05:11:22 PM
It is only a few select limited people at the moment I believe who asked to be put on the trial even though there is a recent post in the plusnet thread saying all eci users have had it applied.  I certainly haven't :( and is wrong information.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on March 17, 2020, 05:51:22 PM
Looks like only plusnet show up that they do job properly. I'm on ee, also volunteering on ee community forum to be in trial a way before, and nothing happened yet on my line.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 17, 2020, 06:00:23 PM
Dang it, had two resyncs so not looking good here.  Time to try the Zyxel I think:

Code: [Select]
Max:    Upstream rate = 20384 Kbps, Downstream rate = 58103 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 57383 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State:       L0
Mode:                   VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile:          Profile 17a
TPS-TC:                 PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):        6.2             6.0
Attn(dB):        13.7            0.0
Pwr(dBm):        13.7            6.4

                        VDSL2 framing
                        Bearer 0
MSGc:           -6              150
B:              227             236
M:              1               1
T:              0               5
R:              12              16
S:              0.1264          0.3771
L:              15193           5410
D:              1               1
I:              240             255
N:              240             255
Q:              4               0
V:              0               0
RxQueue:                99              0
TxQueue:                33              0
G.INP Framing:          18              0
G.INP lookback:         31              0
RRC bits:               0               24
                        Bearer 1
MSGc:           122             -6
B:              0               0
M:              2               0
T:              2               0
R:              16              0
S:              8.0000          0.0000
L:              32              0
D:              1               0
I:              32              0
N:              32              0
Q:              0               0
V:              0               0
RxQueue:                0               0
TxQueue:                0               0
G.INP Framing:          0               0
G.INP lookback:         0               0
RRC bits:               0               0

                        Counters
                        Bearer 0
OHF:            0               75992
OHFErr:         0               0
RS:             14660952                4937070
RSCorr:         5               4
RSUnCorr:       0               0
                        Bearer 1
OHF:            29011           0
OHFErr:         0               0
RS:             231595          0
RSCorr:         0               0
RSUnCorr:       0               0

                        Retransmit Counters
rtx_tx:         224             0
rtx_c:          0               0
rtx_uc:         0               0

                        G.INP Counters
LEFTRS:         0               0
minEFTR:        57376           0
errFreeBits:    407748          0

                        Bearer 0
HEC:            0               0
OCD:            0               0
LCD:            0               0
Total Cells:    51420457                0
Data Cells:     1541986         0
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     0               0

                        Bearer 1
HEC:            0               0
OCD:            0               0
LCD:            0               0
Total Cells:    0               0
Data Cells:     0               0
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     0               0

ES:             0               34333
SES:            0               125
UAS:            31              237902
AS:             467

                        Bearer 0
INP:            49.00           0.00
INPRein:        0.00            0.00
delay:          0               0
PER:            0.00            6.15
OR:             0.01            202.87
AgR:            57508.75        20203.27

                        Bearer 1
INP:            2.00            0.00
INPRein:        2.00            0.00
delay:          0               0
PER:            16.06           0.01
OR:             63.75           0.01
AgR:            63.75   0.01

Bitswap:        116/116         0/0

Total time = 8 min 18 sec
FEC:            5               4
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               34333
SES:            0               125
UAS:            31              237902
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Retr:           0
HostInitRetr:   0
FailedRetr:     0
Latest 15 minutes time = 8 min 18 sec
FEC:            5               4
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               34333
SES:            0               125
UAS:            31              237902
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Retr:           0
HostInitRetr:   0
FailedRetr:     0
Previous 15 minutes time = 0 sec
FEC:            0               0
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Retr:           N/A
HostInitRetr:   N/A
FailedRetr:     N/A
Latest 1 day time = 8 min 18 sec
FEC:            5               4
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               34333
SES:            0               125
UAS:            31              237902
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Retr:           0
HostInitRetr:   0
FailedRetr:     0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC:            0               0
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Retr:           0
HostInitRetr:   0
FailedRetr:     0
Since Link time = 7 min 45 sec
FEC:            5               4
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               34333
SES:            0               125
UAS:            0               237871
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Retr:           0
HostInitRetr:   0
FailedRetr:     0
NTR: mipsCntAtNtr=0 ncoCntAtNtr=0
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on March 18, 2020, 12:37:56 AM
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/03/early-feedback-from-openreachs-g-inp-eci-hybrid-fibre-trial.html
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 18, 2020, 10:20:47 AM
So far looking like its much more stable on the Zyxel which is a bummer as its ~4Mbit lower sync.  (though obviously these things are going to be related)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on March 24, 2020, 12:54:45 PM
As it appears things are working does anyone want to guess when the trial will be expanded as I feel I am missing out now :(

I should have posted in the Plusnet thread to get on the trial but didn't want to risk problems with my connection at this time but as things seem positive I wish I risked it now.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on March 24, 2020, 01:58:01 PM
If Bob managed to get us on the trial the way I suspect he did, then I doubt any more will be added until or if it goes live.   
Not sure which other ISPs opted for the trial but in view of the large amount they were intending on testing, then it was a high proportion of the ECI base.   It would be interesting to see if anyone on some of the other big ISPs such as BT/sky/tt see it enabled on their line.     Thing is most of their customers will be using modems which don't have decent stats, so I doubt many would notice.

I hope it does go through and Openreach roll it out across the whole ECI platform asap.    Then hoping that next they roll on 'x'dB,  which they halted at the last time at the very last min.

I had a mammoth spike of errors yesterday which I saw despite being on g.inp and I half waited with trepidation to see what the DLM did.      I think if my line didn't have retransmission to give it some protection, then DLM may well have interleaved me today.    Even with g.inp,  I got 3k CRCs and FECs went off the scale, so goodness knows how many CRCs that would have been without re-tx.    Mind you the burst did only last a few minutes, but I have seen the ECI DLM be a bit more aggressive than usual of late.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 24, 2020, 03:48:36 PM
I also wonder of the stock Home Hub 5A is as flaky as my OpenWRT version.

I tried going to back to it but the Zyxel seems rock-solid, the HH5A will maintain sync for a day or so then just randomly resync for no apparent reason.

Its curious as while the HH5A is known to be part of the original problem hardware, I don't think this is the typical behaviour.

Honestly though, while I got 4Mbit higher sync with it than the Zyxel, I didn't see any improvement in real-world throughput (even though I saw the Plusnet profile increase) so I suspect its just a crap implementation of g.INP as previously reported.  If anything the throughput seemed to struggle to hit what the Zyxel does with ease.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on March 24, 2020, 06:32:58 PM
Did you tried different vdsl fw on openwrt? 🤔
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on March 24, 2020, 07:26:15 PM
Will i actually see g.inp this time? remember on the last trial I never had it at all.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on March 24, 2020, 08:16:15 PM
Did you tried different vdsl fw on openwrt? 🤔

I thought about it, but honestly it seemed a lot of work seeing as DLM would likely kick in at some point causing any conclusions to be invalid.

Its just puzzling that there is nothing that jumps out from the stats to suggest a problem.  I'm kinda suspicious that it might actually be upstream causing the problem, as Lantiq syncs higher and I have zero control over what happens to upstream sync.  Just easier to stick with BCM as if they roll this out fully then maybe they will enable 3dB SNR which would get me back the speed anyway.

That said, I'm keeping my fingers cross that by the time the trial ends in August it wont be long until FTTP is an option.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on March 25, 2020, 09:51:33 AM
I noticed a new post in the BQM thread a few minutes ago and was having a browse through some older posts.

I spotted kitz BQM... ouch!

https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,21177.msg367178.html#msg367178

(https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/quality/share/thumb/9097e428aec9a35a78c378bb076667fb7877287e.png)[/url]

That's a nasty increase in latency and a huge amount of packet loss.

ES/SES are huge and FEC has gone off the graph.

https://kitz.co.uk/linestats/errors.htm

G.INP still active.
Curious if DLM will act or if it's essentially off on trial lines.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: adslmax on March 25, 2020, 10:11:52 AM
Oh dear me! Was it like this in every PN customers? Or only ECI customers?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on March 25, 2020, 12:26:46 PM
Oh dear me! Was it like this in every PN customers? Or only ECI customers?

Neither.
Only kitz line.

I'm of the opinion something is borked on her ECI DSLAM.

A resync usually fixes it.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on March 25, 2020, 01:36:42 PM
She has this issue that comes and goes, g.inp mitigates the impacts of problems, but it isnt a cure all fix.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on March 25, 2020, 08:01:08 PM
Nothing to do with the trial.   That is my daily dose of SHINE gone mental - which it does from time to time.
I have something set up to alert me and thus prevent that mess by switching off my modem for a short while before DLM sees it.   

Unfortunately I'm having a really bad flare atm and have gone several nights without sleep due to pain. Plus lots of other stuff going on which hasnt helped.   It was about 6am when I managed to get to sleep and was amazed to find out it was 11am when I woke which is something I've not done for years.   However,  I had slept through my alarm and also numerous email alerts telling me my connection needed a reboot.

That mess _would_ have continued until I physically put a stop to it and it is why I monitor my line. Usually I catch it within 10 mins. Today I didn't.   

G.INP doesn't do much for SHINE.   FEC doesn't do much either when its that bad.   I've no doubt DLM will have spotted it.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on March 29, 2020, 02:35:26 AM
Since that horrendous burst of noise, I thought the DLM may hammer me.    But touch wood it looks like I've gotten away with it  :fingers:

After I rebooted the other day to clear the noise, when it came back up I noticed my SNRM was at 6.8dB but it immediately dropped down to 6.4 and as my sync was fairly rounded to 68Mbps (67790) and just assumed that it was just the DSM playing with power.   I happened to notice this evening my SNRM had gone back up to 6.8 again so out of curiosity I performed a resync.    Now connecting at 68960 so that's yet another small gain of 1.2Mbps giving a total gain of ~3Mbps since g.inp was enabled on my line.

My daily SHINE is still there as I'm seeing FEC's each morning for 1 min, but for the past few days it hasn't caused any E/Secs

No idea why DLM didn't kick in..  but I'm certainly not complaining.  :)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on March 29, 2020, 04:42:27 AM
If the line is Retx High I'm not sure what DLM could do.

Don't think the Huawei DLM would take any action on a 6dB Retx High line for high ES.
There's nowhere else for it to go.

If Retx Low I'm surprised DLM didn't try Retx High.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Weaver on March 29, 2020, 06:52:11 AM
Forgive me, I forget - is there upstream G.INP on your link now? If so, what does it do for you? You’re getting roughly 4% more downstream speed then.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: forceware on March 29, 2020, 01:14:21 PM
Has this been spotted by anyone in the wild yet?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on March 29, 2020, 01:21:36 PM
Far from the wild but 19 Plusnet users have it and it appears to be working for them.  No guarantees though it was working for virtually everyone last time and they still canned it.  Not convinced anywhere near 100000 trial users have it it may only be the 19 on Plusnet at the moment.  More details https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=24403.0
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on March 29, 2020, 01:28:29 PM
Re-tx low
 
I was getting practically the full 3600 Err Secs per hour for over 3.5hrs.
Aside from a small respite for a couple of minutes at 8:30, I was racking up at the rate of 1 E/Sec per second from ~7:30 until just gone 11am.

INP rein and interleave delay have not been added. 

Code: [Select]
                        Bearer 0
INP:            47.00           0.00
INPRein:        0.00            0.00
delay:          0               0
PER:            0.00            6.15
OR:             0.01            202.87
AgR:            69030.25        20203.27
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on March 29, 2020, 01:33:52 PM
Forgive me, I forget - is there upstream G.INP on your link now? If so, what does it do for you? You’re getting roughly 4% more downstream speed then.

This is a trial for downstream retransmission on ECI cabs.   ECI's supposedly cant do upstream.
Yes, the potential gains for those on ECI cabs who previously had Interleaving could be even greater.   
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on March 29, 2020, 01:46:56 PM
As ktz392837 said there are a few of us on here who have it (including myself).   The only cases we have seen so far though are those from Plusnet who Bob submitted and it seems to be working nicely so far for us.   :fingers:

It was supposed to be ISP opt in which usually means Openreach [randomly] selects how ever many trialists they need from across the ISP's userbase.   I would have thought that at least BTr would have opted in.  That said the average BTr/Sky/TT user is unlikely to notice any difference especially if they are using ISP modems which don't show information about the bearers.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on April 07, 2020, 08:10:54 PM
wow trial already suspended :( thats why not many on it
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: burakkucat on April 07, 2020, 08:27:27 PM
wow trial already suspended :(

Is it?  :-\  Do you have a link to the Openreach announcement, please?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on April 07, 2020, 08:49:53 PM
Is it?  :-\  Do you have a link to the Openreach announcement, please?
i can pm
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: burakkucat on April 07, 2020, 08:52:05 PM
Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on April 07, 2020, 10:10:05 PM
wow trial already suspended
Is ther somewhere officiall info about?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 07, 2020, 10:12:00 PM
wow trial already suspended :( thats why not many on it

I kinda expected that, its risky doing anything that might decrease stability during the current situation.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on April 11, 2020, 01:17:36 AM
Since that horrendous burst of noise, I thought the DLM may hammer me.    But touch wood it looks like I've gotten away with it  :fingers:

After I rebooted the other day to clear the noise, when it came back up I noticed my SNRM was at 6.8dB but it immediately dropped down to 6.4 and as my sync was fairly rounded to 68Mbps (67790) and just assumed that it was just the DSM playing with power.   I happened to notice this evening my SNRM had gone back up to 6.8 again so out of curiosity I performed a resync.    Now connecting at 68960 so that's yet another small gain of 1.2Mbps giving a total gain of ~3Mbps since g.inp was enabled on my line.

My daily SHINE is still there as I'm seeing FEC's each morning for 1 min, but for the past few days it hasn't caused any E/Secs

No idea why DLM didn't kick in..  but I'm certainly not complaining.  :)

I had another stuck SHINE burst this morning.  The email notification took a while to come through as there were that many errors it was difficult to send or receive any data, but I was still able to stop it in about 10 mins. 

Total error seconds for the day was 683...  and the DLM has just taken action.   
Compared to 11,705 a couple of weeks ago when it didn't take any action.

----
Stats

Previous
Code: [Select]
Max:    Upstream rate = 24417 Kbps, Downstream rate = 68365 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 68960 Kbps

                        Bearer 0
INP:            47.00           0.00
INPRein:        0.00            0.00
delay:          0               0
PER:            0.00            6.15
OR:             0.01            202.87
AgR:            69030.25        20203.27

Current
Code: [Select]
Max:    Upstream rate = 24776 Kbps, Downstream rate = 67197 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 67984 Kbps

                        Bearer 0
INP:            51.00           0.00
INPRein:        1.00            0.00
delay:          0               0
PER:            0.00            6.15
OR:             0.01            202.87
AgR:            68054.16        20203.27



PS. 
I've noticed since I've been on G.INP that my max rate is always below my actual rate despite my SNRM being 6.4 dB. 
1) Is 6.4dB the new Target SNR as every sync I've done since being on re-tx has been at 6.4dB
2) Presumably the modem isn't correctly calculating the overheads for g.inp and making the correct adjustment for coding gain in a similar way to how it doesnt correctly take into account interleave overhead. 




 
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ejs on April 11, 2020, 07:37:36 AM
I think the target SNRM always was and still is 6.0 dB. If your modems always connect at a slightly higher SNRM, I think that'll just be the modems erring on the side of caution when estimating the rate/SNRM to connect at. Technically speaking, the very definition of SNRM is totally different with G.INP. Without G.INP, SNRM is defined relative to bit error rate (1 error per 107 bits), whereas with G.INP, SNRM is defined relative to MTBE (1 error in 4 hours).
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on April 12, 2020, 04:46:45 AM
That's an interesting point.  Do the modems actually bother to try to calculate that or just report the SNRm as if G.INP did not exist?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on April 13, 2020, 10:34:13 AM
Is there anyone who is on this trial on eci cabinets and using lantiq based chipset modem?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on April 13, 2020, 11:16:44 AM
Yes.

https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,24403.msg412216.html#msg412216

A few Plusnet Hub Ones on the Plusnet forums also.

https://community.plus.net/t5/Fibre-Broadband/ECI-Cabinets/td-p/1708051
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on April 13, 2020, 12:25:07 PM
My daily dose of SHINE got stuck again yesterday.  Total Err Secs for the day = 1483
I had a forced resync this morning at 03:48 and it looks like the DLM may have banded me at 67Mbps.


I've just tried another resync and still at 67Mbps

Code: [Select]
Max:    Upstream rate = 24881 Kbps, Downstream rate = 68700 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 66999 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State:       L0
Mode:                   VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile:          Profile 17a
TPS-TC:                 PTM Mode
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):        6.5             9.4
Attn(dB):        0.0             0.0
Pwr(dBm):        6.8             6.8

The INP value has also increased to 52.   
Notice also for the first time since being on G.INP my max sync is now more than my actual.   I'd commented just the other day about my max value being less since re-tx had been applied on my line.

Code: [Select]
                        Bearer 0
INP:            52.00           0.00
INPRein:        1.00            0.00
delay:          0               0
PER:            0.00            6.15
OR:             0.01            202.87
AgR:            67092.23        20203.27

                        Bearer 1
INP:            4.50            0.00
INPRein:        4.50            0.00
delay:          3               0
PER:            16.06           0.01
OR:             79.68           0.01
AgR:            79.68   0.01


G.INP doesn't cope well with my daily bursts of SHINE  :(

The reason I say doesn't cope well, is that when the bouts of SHINE stick, then whilst on G.INP absolutely no data can be sent or received on my connection.   
Prior to G.INP at least some data was able to get through and I would get DSLstat alerts informing me there was a problem.   

Each time it happens now, then I get loads and loads of these errors in my DSLstats event log, thus it may be some time before I notice there is a problem with my connection - making it too late to manually intervene like I used to be able to.

12 Apr 2020 08:50:35   Email alert failed (unable to login to SMTP server)
12 Apr 2020 08:51:13   Email alert failed (unable to login to SMTP server)
12 Apr 2020 08:52:14   Email alert failed (unable to login to SMTP server)
etc etc etc



It's annoying because that daily SHINE is usually only for a minute or so per day and the rest of the day its fine.    No amount of Interleaving or G.INP is ever going to be able to correct what happens during that SHINE burst.     Since being on G.INP those daily SHINE bursts have stuck far more frequently than they usually do.
Not quite sure what will happen next, because if the SHINE bursts continue to get stuck and I'm not getting email notifications then DLM I guess will just keep continuing to take further action with the banding?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: tiffy on April 13, 2020, 01:39:58 PM
With your somewhat unusual line characteristics and the very successful work around you pioneered it's a very unfortunate bi-product in your case of the very long awaited re-application of G.Inp to ECI cabinets.

Still, I'am sure you will manage to formulate a new solution/work around, good luck, will follow with interest.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ejs on April 13, 2020, 06:30:52 PM
Or the behaviour of kitz's line will get G.INP on ECI banished again.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on April 13, 2020, 07:14:38 PM
well kiz i prefer the new g.inp dlm, you been dlmd twice now and still no interleaving :) banding > interleaving
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on April 13, 2020, 10:23:47 PM
Or the behaviour of kitz's line will get G.INP on ECI banished again.

Hope not..  it works really well aside from my daily error burst each morning.      It's well known that retransmission doesn't work well with shine and types of rein.

Thing is DLM on the ECIs is cutting in at low level Err/secs - way below what there were.    This isn't anything to do with g.inp, but has been happening for a while now and its not unique to my line.   Chrys has just had it happen to him too.   

If it were still the 'old' parameters then I would not have had DLM action a couple of days ago as I spotted that myself as I was on the forum and everything just stopped working, so I was able to correct it quite quickly.   It's like the transmission queue buffer cant cope with the amount of errors and just backs up until no data at all gets through.  Webpages wont load, email doesn't contact the host etc.   Pre g.inp everything would slow down but at least a good portion of data would still be transmitted. 

well kiz i prefer the new g.inp dlm, you been dlmd twice now and still no interleaving :) banding > interleaving

Aye - I'm on re-tx high so my throughput speed is probably not so great as it could be due to the IProfile - in turn due to additional overheads...  and the banding is still at a figure that I'm ok with.    Still in a better than it would be if I was interleaved.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on April 14, 2020, 01:35:37 AM
I think I might have suggested this before although I can't remember if it was to yourself or someone else.

I know it won't help much when you're getting so many ES that DslStats struggles to send an email, but you could try automate the process of taking your line down instead of having to react when you receive the DslStats email.

Something like IFTTT can do this.

Connect Zyxel modem to your TP-Link power socket (if you have a spare 1).
When X amount of ES occurs in a set time period have DslStats email IFTTT with a chosen #hashtag.
Have IFTTT turn off your TP-Link WiFi power socket when the above email is sent, immediately stopping the ES burst.

This would mean instead of you having to react to resync your line as quickly as possible you would only have to manually power the modem back on.

I have a similar IFTTT email trigger set up and it works perfect every time.

https://imgur.com/a/UftVkWU

As your line now has G.INP instead of just fastpath you should be able to set the ES trigger in Dslstats much lower than you had it before.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Weaver on April 14, 2020, 02:04:01 AM
That IFTTT stuff is very clever, I’ve seen the iOS app. Got any urls for reading matter?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on April 14, 2020, 12:17:03 PM
Hi J0hn.    I hadnt realised that IFTTT had an email address so thanks for that.    ;D

I do already have the modem plugged into the TPlink HS100 so I can remotely manage it even if out.
   
What I normally do upon receiving the email notification is 
1) Set up a new instruction to automatically power on the HS100 to power on in 5 mins time
2) Then Switch off the HS100.


I shall have to have a look and see if I can do something on IFTTT to get it to bring it back up again too, because once it's down then I have no remote control at all. 

I also have it currently set to alert on CRCs as opposed to Err Secs.  From past experience if I get 3 emails in a row saying the CRCs have gone above a certain amount then its more likely to be a stuck.   I did originally have it set up for Err Secs and cant exactly remember why now, but the CRCs seemed to give a better indication and sooner if it was stuck rather than the Err Secs did.   
From memory I think it was because the ErrSecs count was per hour...  by which time it was often too late.   3 or 4 consecutive emails each min alerts me much sooner that there is a problem.   I sometimes have to do a judgement call based on the CRCs..  ie if say they are at 800 on mail 1, 1200 on mail 2, and 500 on mail 3 then its usually ok...  but if its say 800, 1200, 1200, 1200 I know its stuck.

Although I get a dose of SHINE practically every morning - its never at the same time (can be between 8am and 11am) nor did it ever cause the same amount of CRCs/Err secs.    Since G.INP it does seem to cause a full 60 err secs per min..  yet when on INP it would be more varied and not always the full 60 err secs. 
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on April 14, 2020, 09:22:58 PM
Talking about profiles, we know FEC is used without delay on the US, and some also may remember back when I had a pair swap a few years back, my DS was synced at around 50mbit, I had FEC "without" delay on my DS also that day,  but I have never ever seen that profile on anyone's line since.  It would be nice on non g.inp line's if FEC with no delay was used instead of FEC+delay.

I have now massively reduced the ES threshold on my dslstats email config given all the changes that have been happening.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on April 14, 2020, 10:20:21 PM
There is a FEC on downstream and upstream on eci cabinet if you using modem with lantiq chipset. They are present on mine and I'm on fastpath and no delays, unfortunately no g.inp on my line.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on June 11, 2020, 05:55:52 AM
As it appears things are working does anyone want to guess when the trial will be expanded as I feel I am missing out now :(

I should have posted in the Plusnet thread to get on the trial but didn't want to risk problems with my connection at this time but as things seem positive I wish I risked it now.

Seems they are taking requests from ISP's to have G.INP enabled.

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/06/openreach-extend-g-inp-to-more-eci-fttc-broadband-lines.html

Quote from: ISPReview
The recent trial, which is still on pause, was an attempt to deploy ReTx to all ECI lines in a more strategic way. However a new briefing from Openreach (here) claims it will offer ISPs “the chance to deploy ReTransmission to more of their VDSL lines.” The focus of this, we’re told, seems to be on a large volume of in-life ECI lines.

Openreach estimates that around 17% of ECI lines could benefit from ReTx and so they’ve agreed, upon request from an ISP, to deploy the upgrade to in-life ECI FTTC lines over the next six weeks or so. Apparently providers will be able to opt-in to this between now and 9th July 2020. We don’t know exactly how many lines will benefit but it looks like a significant proportion of their estate.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: broadstairs on June 11, 2020, 07:40:05 AM
I woke up this morning to find G.INP enabled on my ECI line this morning and now on fast path running at 67000kbps down. I'm with TalkTalk btw.

Stuart
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on June 11, 2020, 09:34:40 AM
Openreach Extend G.INP to More ECI FTTC Broadband Lines

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/06/openreach-extend-g-inp-to-more-eci-fttc-broadband-lines.html
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: broadstairs on June 11, 2020, 09:38:52 AM
As I pointed out on another thread my line (ECI cabinet) had G.INP enabled this morning. So far so good. I'm with TalkTalk. So I suspect some others here in Thanet which has 99% ECI cabinets also may well have it. I'm using my ZyXEL 3925 router btw.

Stuart
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on June 11, 2020, 09:57:03 AM
Does anyone have contacts to see what Plusnet might be doing regarding this expansion of trial?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Bowdon on June 11, 2020, 10:57:19 AM
I woke up this morning to find G.INP enabled on my ECI line this morning and now on fast path running at 67000kbps down. I'm with TalkTalk btw.

What speed was you getting before?

Would G.INP help if there is another phone line next to mine (the neighbours) was causing interference?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: broadstairs on June 11, 2020, 11:02:49 AM
What speed was you getting before?

Would G.INP help if there is another phone line next to mine (the neighbours) was causing interference?

I was getting around 64000kbps before the change so not much faster, ominous that the new speed is exactly 67000kbps which sounds like it could be a cap but dont know actually if that's true but SNRM is 7.2db. Interesting Kitz did not see a huge jump in speed either when her line was enabled.

As for your neighbour I have no idea really, maybe but needs some one more knowledgable to answer that.

Stuart
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: tiffy on June 11, 2020, 12:19:07 PM
Quote
Would G.INP help if there is another phone line next to mine (the neighbours) was causing interference?

From my experience, all be it on a Huawei DSLAM, while waiting for G.Inp application after ADSL/VDSL migration, this took close to 6 weeks in my case, DS errors were virtually eliminated by DS G.Inp application.
US G.Inp has been applied to my line from time to time but never lasts more than a few days as the application removes the associated US errors and DLM promptly removes US G.Inp again.
Not sure if US G.Inp is even an option on ECI cabinets ?

Regarding adjacent line interference, had an unusually severe experence recently effecting my US speed and SNRM which was finally traced to a fault on a neighbours VDSL line, see rather long thread here:
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,24606.msg413899.html#msg413899
Thankfully this was resolved buy my neighbours ISP (BT) as my ISP (PN) refused to investigate.

So yes, G.Inp application is good and should certainly produce a considerable improvement in DS error rate regardless of source.
Glad to see it's finally being implemented on ECI cabinets, hopefully will be extended to all, pity it has taken so long.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on June 11, 2020, 02:00:40 PM
I was getting around 64000kbps before the change so not much faster, ominous that the new speed is exactly 67000kbps which sounds like it could be a cap but dont know actually if that's true but SNRM is 7.2db. Interesting Kitz did not see a huge jump in speed either when her line was enabled.

Definitely sounds banded to me.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: sof006 on June 11, 2020, 02:38:57 PM
Any news of Newcastle Upon Tyne getting this? I'd say 99% of Newcastle uses ECI based exchanges.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on June 11, 2020, 03:07:55 PM
I have asked in the News thread for the same topic if anyone had any news on what Plusnet may be doing.  It appears it will be down to ISP to request it at this point according to the article.  I would hope just everyone would get it at some point though.

The news thread and discussion is here also.  Pity can't be combined to avoid confusion but members may be subscribed to different threads.  Perhaps this one could be closed as original subject was Ginp 2018 not 2020?

https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=24403.0
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: sof006 on June 11, 2020, 06:28:42 PM
Any news of Newcastle Upon Tyne getting this? I'd say 99% of Newcastle uses ECI based exchanges.

Reposting this here into this thread as mentioned by @ktz392837
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on June 11, 2020, 06:47:27 PM
Any news of Newcastle Upon Tyne getting this? I'd say 99% of Newcastle uses ECI based exchanges.

Reposting this here into this thread as mentioned by @ktz392837

Its not about region, it down to the ISP opting in their users.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on June 12, 2020, 07:56:53 PM
I have been on at Zen a couple of times now about getting on the openreach trial, 1st time was a flat no but now with this new info I have raised it again.

I would suggest any other Zen ECI user's that are keen to see this then get on to Zen as they still seem a bit unaware of it given my latest response 😖

The last time I had g.inp on eci was 2016..
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Jasonkruys on June 13, 2020, 10:30:08 AM
I have been on at Zen a couple of times now about getting on the openreach trial, 1st time was a flat no but now with this new info I have raised it again.

I would suggest any other Zen ECI user's that are keen to see this then get on to Zen as they still seem a bit unaware of it given my latest response 😖

The last time I had g.inp on eci was 2016..

I emailed them yesterday, no response yet but that is understandable given the Pandemic.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on June 13, 2020, 10:46:16 AM
I emailed them yesterday, no response yet but that is understandable given the Pandemic.


They responded to me but I can tell from the answer the person I spoke to may have miss understood my request... might try a call next week but not holding out any hope at this stage they will take part...
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: sof006 on June 13, 2020, 04:00:57 PM
I emailed them yesterday, no response yet but that is understandable given the Pandemic.

So I just spoke to someone on Live Chat on the techinical support line and they've suggested I get in touch with the sales line as they're more likely to know about information from Openreach (apparently). The person I spoke with said they'll email me with more information on Monday when their colleague is available (they mustn't work weekends). I think i'll wait till Monday to find out more information otherwise potentially someone here could get in touch with Zens sales team to find out more information.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on June 13, 2020, 04:41:21 PM
I had the same response. Sales seems like the wrong avenue to me. Surely upper level techie type needed to get on board with the trial perhaps.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: sof006 on June 14, 2020, 12:48:55 AM
I had the same response. Sales seems like the wrong avenue to me. Surely upper level techie type needed to get on board with the trial perhaps.

I'll be sure to post back here if and when I hear back from Zen
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Jon21 on June 14, 2020, 07:44:30 PM
I have been on at Zen a couple of times now about getting on the openreach trial, 1st time was a flat no but now with this new info I have raised it again.

I would suggest any other Zen ECI user's that are keen to see this then get on to Zen as they still seem a bit unaware of it given my latest response 😖

The last time I had g.inp on eci was 2016..

Just emailed Zen, see what the response is but I expect it'll be a similar reply to everyone else. Hopefully the more emails they get, the more likely they are to get involved.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on June 14, 2020, 07:50:25 PM
yup. I will try and make a call this week to follow up my email given the response...
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: BungalowBill on June 15, 2020, 08:27:13 AM
RE: Zen Internet.

On Thursday (11th June), I had to speak to our Zen account manager regarding an unrelated matter; by which I mean my employer's account manager of course.

While I had him on the line, I asked him about Openreach NGA briefing (NGA017/20), as we now have quite a few pandemic induced teleworkers, using “Zen Small Business Fibre”, i.e. GEA-FTTC, connected to lousy ECI street cabinets, which includes my own connection.

He said that, whilst they hadn’t yet reached a final decision on the matter, they were unlikely to opt in to enabling G.INP on existing ECI circuits.

I then asked if he was able to offer an explanation; whilst I was expecting a reply along the lines of “the risk of non SIN498 compatible CPE etc., etc.”, what he actually said was, “Because of the effect it might have on off-net connections”.

I asked him what exactly he meant by “off-net connections”, to which he replied, “commercially sensitive so can’t elaborate”.

Any ideas?
Bill

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on June 15, 2020, 08:44:27 AM
Sadly if zen don't give us the opportunity to benefit from it I for one will be looking to move to an ISP that will ???
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on June 15, 2020, 09:35:32 AM
It is a pity Plusnet don't appear to have any comment especially as they seemed to be good on the first round of the trial.  The original post on Plusnet forums has been marked as resolved for weeks.

If anyone has any info or can get some info that would be great :)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Ronski on June 15, 2020, 10:27:01 AM
From Googling it seems that on-net is supplied  over equipment owned by the ISP, so off-net maybe when they are using others equipment owned by others, so might be the difference between using BT back haul and TT for instance, over Zens own, off net probably complicates things when there is a problem.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Jasonkruys on June 15, 2020, 10:40:31 AM
I got a different reply from Tech Support:


"Thank you for your email, I have been investigating this and unfortunately we cannot opt Openreach to implement G.inp on your line. Is it their infrastructure and have been implementing it over the years so it will happen once they plan it to go on your cabinet. So in answer to your question we do have them on our lines but we have no say in when it is implemented."

For what it is worth, I have replied to clarify the difference between ECI and the general implementation and referenced the NGA briefing, but I think we are out of luck with Zen!

I too suspect I will leave when my contract is up, depending on what the take-up is with other ISPs. I assume BT will be opting in?

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on June 15, 2020, 12:23:00 PM
I spoke with my provider (EE) and they have no ide if EE will opt in for this. Probably time for changes, got few months more with EE and will look at autumn for different provider.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on June 15, 2020, 12:50:01 PM
Some ISP who opts in is going to get a lot of new users if they are the only ones opting in  ;D

Can't really understand why Zen seem so reluctant...it seems to work so let us have it  ;D
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: g3uiss on June 15, 2020, 01:13:04 PM
Same problem here with Zen, a combination of not understanding and not willing, not like Zen really
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Jasonkruys on June 15, 2020, 01:34:01 PM
Same problem here with Zen, a combination of not understanding and not willing, not like Zen really
Maybe they'll join the dots. Whilst it is a tiny number of people, relatively, several people suddenly enquiring about the same thing will hopefully be snagged somewhere...

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: BungalowBill on June 15, 2020, 02:21:41 PM
@Ronski

I’ve been doing some digging, regarding what he meant by “off-net”:

It would appear that Zen aren’t just buying backhaul from TalkTalk Wholesale, they are buying FTTC End User Access from TalkTalk as well.

i.e. Where Zen are using TTW backhaul, from an OLT (head-end exchange) location, they are also buying the end user access from TalkTalk, as a managed package, just like any other TTW re-seller would.

In those specific instances, the enablement of G.INP would be down to TTW to request and not Zen.
No excuse in the case of circuits procured directly from Openreach, but it does complicate matters somewhat.

Bill
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Ronski on June 15, 2020, 04:00:05 PM
I suppose its just easier to say no to everyone, rather than explain why they can and can't.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on June 15, 2020, 08:18:06 PM
So I have had a few further emails now from Zen with a bit of progress. The person concerned has seen a number of related emails in regards to eci g.inp. asked for permission to send on my emails to their internal contact who may be dealing with this so a bit of movement perhaps...


Keep on at em!..  ;)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Jon21 on June 15, 2020, 08:26:41 PM
So I have had a few further emails now from Zen with a bit of progress. The person concerned has seen a number of related emails in regards to eci g.inp. asked for permission to send on my emails to their internal contact who may be dealing with this so a bit of movement perhaps...


Keep on at em!..  ;)

I've just had an email saying pretty much the same thing. Good that they might be looking in to it.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Jasonkruys on June 15, 2020, 08:27:28 PM
I've just had an email saying pretty much the same thing. Good that they might be looking in to it.
Likewise. Fingers and toes crossed!

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on June 16, 2020, 01:53:41 AM
Ironically I'm hoping Zen DON'T roll it out to people who did not request it.

G.INP on my Plusnet line did NOT like my HH5a with OpenWRT on it, and that is absolutely essential to keep my sync speed high on my Zen line with the SNR adjusted down to 3dB.  I'd end up with a slower connection if I had to go back to 6dB and the Zyxel.

Its a fascinating scenario when both lines are from the same cabinet and drop cable but dramatically different line conditions.  Zen on Fastpath and Plusnet fell onto Interleaved when I tried to push THAT line to 3dB SNR, so G.INP does help that one.

Now if Openreach would roll out 3dB and G.INP to ECI cabs, it would be the best of both worlds.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Ronski on June 16, 2020, 06:18:39 AM
But you're not supposed to be pushing your line to 3dB, wasn't it people using incompatible modems that caused problems the first time round?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on June 16, 2020, 09:10:08 AM
But you're not supposed to be pushing your line to 3dB, wasn't it people using incompatible modems that caused problems the first time round?
What if my line been pushed to 3db by DLM? Yesterday we had power cut and my modem sync faster than others on my cabinet what resulted to snr dropped to 3db to keep 7999500 sync speed. It's running perfectly fine like that as I didn't rebooted, no excess of errors etc, nice and stable.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Ronski on June 16, 2020, 10:24:35 AM
You've not forced your line to run faster at a lower dB, its a quirk of the system in your case, your modem came up quicker than others and therefore the system see's a low level of noise and sets the line accordingly. The other modems then come online creating additional noise and your dB reading drops, at the time of sync it would have been 6dB. If on a Huawei cabinet then these use dBx and are designed to sync at lower than 6dB.

In some cases lines have known to stay synced at even 1dB, but if they resync they will go back to 6dB target unless on dBx.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: mrk26 on June 16, 2020, 10:53:25 AM
I'm on eci cabinet, and looking forward to get g.inp one day ;)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: sof006 on June 16, 2020, 01:29:55 PM
This is the reply I got in an email just today -

Quote from: Zen ISP
I have had confirmation about the g.inp trial, at the moment we are not in a position to opt into this as openreach have not yet completed there trials . If we do opt into this we will be able to provide some more information on this and when/if this will take place.

If you have any further issues please do let me know.

Kind regards

[Moderator edited to wrap the quotation in [quote][/quote] tags.]
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on June 16, 2020, 03:31:51 PM
But you're not supposed to be pushing your line to 3dB, wasn't it people using incompatible modems that caused problems the first time round?

Of course I'm not supposed to be, but can you really argue with this?
Line Uptime:
 51d 12h 44m 6s
Data Rate:
73.993 Mb/s / 20.000 Mb/s
Latency:
0.0 ms / 0.0 ms
(https://csdprojects.co.uk/forums/BroadbandLines2.png)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Ronski on June 16, 2020, 03:36:03 PM
Of course I'm not supposed to be, but can you really argue with this?]

That depends entirely on whether it's causing some one else issues  >:D
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: burakkucat on June 16, 2020, 03:36:31 PM
That reply from Zen is pure hog-wash.

Openreach have a trial in progress, for which they require testers. An ISP's customers can become part of the trial by the ISP making a request to Openreach.

One consequence of Zen's on-going negativity will be a loss of their customers.

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on June 16, 2020, 03:48:44 PM
That depends entirely on whether it's causing some one else issues  >:D

I don't think crosstalk ever works one-way, if it was causing a problem then my line would be unstable too?

Besides my Plusnet line SUCKS, I'm merely trying to balance that out with my good line.  :P
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on June 16, 2020, 05:50:10 PM
That reply from Zen is pure hog-wash.

Openreach have a trial in progress, for which they require testers. An ISP's customers can become part of the trial by the ISP making a request to Openreach.

One consequence of Zen's on-going negativity will be a loss of their customers.

Agreed. I have emailed my contact again just to clarify this and  he is supposedly collating the emails asking for zen to opt in to pass further up the chain....
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ejs on June 16, 2020, 09:21:39 PM
I don't think crosstalk ever works one-way

It does if someone with an Asus modem switches off UPBO.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on June 16, 2020, 10:14:31 PM
It does if someone with an Asus modem switches off UPBO.

That's true, but I get full sync on upstream so presumably even if I was an asshole and had hardware that stupidly allowed this, I would have no reason to disable it.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on June 18, 2020, 05:57:27 AM
Of course I'm not supposed to be, but can you really argue with this?
Line Uptime:
 51d 12h 44m 6s
Data Rate:
73.993 Mb/s / 20.000 Mb/s
Latency:
0.0 ms / 0.0 ms

Well that'll teach me, after the storms:
Quote
Actual Data Rate:   67.000 Mb/s / 20.000 Mb/s
Impulse Noise Prot:   0.0 sym / 0.0 sym
Interleave Delay:   0.0 ms / 0.0 ms
NFEC:         255 / 255
RFEC:         16 / 16
LSYMB:         17979 / 5410
Interleave Depth:   1 / 1
Interleave Block:   255 / 255
LPATH:         0 / 0
Line Attenuation:   13.0dB / 15.9dB
Signal Attenuation:   13.1dB / 15.8dB
Noise Margin:      5.7dB / 6.8dB
Transmit power:      13.8dBm / 4.6dBm
FECS:         0 / 12
ES:         1 / 40123
SES:         0 / 12
LOSS:         0 / 0
UAS:         140 / 140
HEC:         0 / 0
CRC_P:         0 / 0
CRCP_P:         0 / 0
15m Code Violations:   0 / 1
15m FEC Errors:      0 / 5
1d Code Violations:   4 / 38
1d FEC Errors:      59 / 142

Seems DLM has decided to make my banding even more aggressive so that my negative SNRm offset no longer works.
Guess I should be thankful I'm at least still Fastpath.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on June 20, 2020, 05:56:22 AM
That reply from Zen is pure hog-wash.

Openreach have a trial in progress, for which they require testers. An ISP's customers can become part of the trial by the ISP making a request to Openreach.

One consequence of Zen's on-going negativity will be a loss of their customers.



Not surprising, the CP can have a different desire to their own customers.  Openreach only hear what the CP tells them (as the CP is their customer), and the end user only believes what the CP tells them, leading to situations where openreach and end users can have a total disconnect.  Sometimes there may be an extra level with smaller isp's so e.g. end user > aaisp > ttw > openreach.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on June 21, 2020, 05:37:15 PM
Plusnet (Bob on their forums) has said they have no plans to add any people to the extended trial.  TLDR you will need to wait to see if OR roll it out to everyone.  I'm disappointed I'll just have to hope it is rolled out to everyone and it decides to enable for me.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on June 21, 2020, 05:41:47 PM
Plusnet (Bob on their forums) has said they have no plans to add any people to the extended trial.  TLDR you will need to wait to see if OR roll it out to everyone.  I'm disappointed I'll just have to hope it is rolled out to everyone and it decides to enable for me.

Been waiting 4 years for its return... considering it seems to work why not just roll it out to the rest of us.... not having much luck with Zen. First Isp that goes with the current trial I would seriously consider moving too..
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on June 21, 2020, 05:50:49 PM
Probably not worth swapping ISPs for (at least for me) a decision to roll it out to everyone must be due ”soon".  It sure feels like 4 years - we have waited this long hopefully a decision will be made soon.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on June 22, 2020, 02:02:45 AM
The trial is ongoing again now at least.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on June 22, 2020, 09:32:37 AM
It is concerning that no ISP appears to have opted in yet.  How can the trial be expanded if no one is joining it. 

Should OR just be picking a few more tens of thousands of lines at random?

Better yet just allow everyone to enable or disable Ginp.  Problem solved and already proved they can do it. 

There is absolutely no reason why ECI cab users shouldn't have Ginp available to them.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on June 22, 2020, 11:02:27 AM
plusnet and BTr are both opted in, TTw are now as well.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: broadstairs on June 22, 2020, 11:04:22 AM
Well I have had it turned on 11 days ago and I'm on ECI with TalkTalk but I've had no confirmation that TT are part of the trial even though I've asked on their community forum to be part of it and confirmed with the same thread that it has been enabled, I can only guess either TT are part of the trial or they are rolling it out anyway. Deafening silence from TT as per usual.

Stuart
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on June 22, 2020, 11:10:34 AM
Bear in mind, they not going to be enabling every line, it will just be a fraction.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on June 22, 2020, 11:55:30 AM
Bear in mind, they not going to be enabling every line, it will just be a fraction.
Conflicting reports on Plusnet forums Bob(?) said they were not activating any further lines in the trial and we had to wait for the rollout (if it comes).
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on June 22, 2020, 01:11:04 PM
Well I have had it turned on 11 days ago and I'm on ECI with TalkTalk but I've had no confirmation that TT are part of the trial even though I've asked on their community forum to be part of it and confirmed with the same thread that it has been enabled, I can only guess either TT are part of the trial or they are rolling it out anyway. Deafening silence from TT as per usual.

Stuart

Support don't know their a*** from their elbow.

Given it's a trial that requires the ISP to opt in its fair to assume Talktalk are taking some part in it.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: flilot on June 29, 2020, 03:17:57 AM
Briefly looked over this thread and noticed the lack of Zen apparently participating in this trial. 
Just logged into say I'm with Zen connected to an ECI cabinet and my line dropped in the early hours of Thursday 25th, to return shortly after with G.INP enabled.

Code: [Select]
Stats recorded 29 Jun 2020 03:16:14

DSLAM type / SW version: IFTN:0xb206 (178.6) / v0xb206
Modem/router firmware:  AnnexA version - A2pv6C038m.d24j
DSL mode:                VDSL2 Profile 17a
Status:                  Showtime
Uptime:                  4 days 2 hours 2 min 52 sec
Resyncs:                2 (since 13 Jun 2020 21:27:12)

Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB):  14.5 0.0
Signal attenuation (dB): Not available on VDSL2
Connection speed (kbps): 67000 20000
SNR margin (dB):        6.4 11.0
Power (dBm):            5.1 5.1
Interleave depth:        1 1
INP:                    46.00 0
G.INP:                  Enabled Not enabled
Vectoring status:        5 (VECT_UNCONFIGURED)

RSCorr/RS (%):          0.0198 0.1650
RSUnCorr/RS (%):        0.0000 0.0000
ES/hour:                0.61 2.74
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on June 29, 2020, 05:33:36 AM
Briefly looked over this thread and noticed the lack of Zen apparently participating in this trial. 
Just logged into say I'm with Zen connected to an ECI cabinet and my line dropped in the early hours of Thursday 25th, to return shortly after with G.INP enabled.

Code: [Select]
Stats recorded 29 Jun 2020 03:16:14

DSLAM type / SW version: IFTN:0xb206 (178.6) / v0xb206
Modem/router firmware:  AnnexA version - A2pv6C038m.d24j
DSL mode:                VDSL2 Profile 17a
Status:                  Showtime
Uptime:                  4 days 2 hours 2 min 52 sec
Resyncs:                2 (since 13 Jun 2020 21:27:12)

Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB):  14.5 0.0
Signal attenuation (dB): Not available on VDSL2
Connection speed (kbps): 67000 20000
SNR margin (dB):        6.4 11.0
Power (dBm):            5.1 5.1
Interleave depth:        1 1
INP:                    46.00 0
G.INP:                  Enabled Not enabled
Vectoring status:        5 (VECT_UNCONFIGURED)

RSCorr/RS (%):          0.0198 0.1650
RSUnCorr/RS (%):        0.0000 0.0000
ES/hour:                0.61 2.74

Wow.. jackpot for you.. I am with Zen so hope our persistence has paid off??.... perhaps I might finally get it back at some point soon.... thanks for letting us know...
Zen told me if they did take part they couldn't let me know if they did.... :shrug2:
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on June 29, 2020, 10:07:51 AM
Just logged into say I'm with Zen connected to an ECI cabinet and my line dropped in the early hours of Thursday 25th, to return shortly after with G.INP enabled.

Do you know if you are on Zen GEA or WBMC?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Jasonkruys on June 29, 2020, 10:16:01 AM
Nothing yet for me on Zen WBMC

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: flilot on June 29, 2020, 03:25:06 PM
Do you know if you are on Zen GEA or WBMC?

WBMC according to the portal.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: MTW on June 29, 2020, 05:47:19 PM
Has G.INP been enabled for anybody on BT? Still nothing here in north London.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on June 29, 2020, 06:01:23 PM
Has G.INP been enabled for anybody on BT? Still nothing here in north London.

Nothing on the BT Forums. Haven't seen a single BT connection with it either.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: MTW on June 29, 2020, 07:01:12 PM
I had hoped that BT would be among the first to opt in to Openreach initiatives, given the historic link between the two companies. Obviously that was too optimistic!
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on June 30, 2020, 11:38:53 AM
I too am a bit surprised they didn't participate, although I believe if the ISP puts the full customer base forward (as opposed to specified lines) for trials then 50% are retained in as 'control group'. In cases such as this Openreach advises the SP a list of those on the trial and those in the control group... and the ISP has a few days to submit any changes.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on July 04, 2020, 09:06:45 PM
will i remain the only one here to have never had g.inp i wonder.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Jasonkruys on July 04, 2020, 09:10:10 PM
will i remain the only one here to have never had g.inp i wonder.
Nope. I'll be joining you.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: cbdeakin on July 06, 2020, 03:19:16 AM
The G.Inp trial finishes around August doesn't it? Are you guys just gonna wait for that? As there doesn't seem to be much else people on ECI cabs can do.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Bowdon on July 08, 2020, 12:40:31 PM
I don't think I've ever had G.INP on either.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Jasonkruys on July 16, 2020, 08:14:26 PM
For what its worth still nothing here

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on July 17, 2020, 07:24:22 AM
Nothing at my end either. 

I am not sure if anyone has got it unless they asked for it.

I would have expected a few (more) posts of people saying they have had it enabled if any significant expansion of the trial was happening.

If anyone knows of when we can guess the next phase to be announced be it expansion or cancellation that would be great?

Thanks
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on July 17, 2020, 12:22:45 PM
Since the trial was expanded I've only seen 1 Talktalk and 2 Zen lines with G.INP on ECI.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on July 17, 2020, 01:07:13 PM
Been backwards and forwards with Zen support. They have said they have no control over which lines get it. Going round in circles so have given up for now.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on July 17, 2020, 02:28:01 PM
Has anyone seen any posts anywhere ECI GINP has been blamed for a problem with their line? 

I've not seen anything negative I am just hoping that a more wider rollout is going soon or even it being rolled out to everyone.

Once GINP is rolled out I can then start with hoping for 3db.  I can dream :)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on July 17, 2020, 04:22:06 PM
My Home Hub 5A with OpenWRT on it couldn't hold a stable sync with G.INP but I believe the "official" firmware may do.  Can't really see how they could roll it out if they hadn't fixed their own firmware.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: MTW on July 17, 2020, 06:02:34 PM
Still nothing on BT. They seem completely uninterested in the trial, so I don't expect to get G.INP unless/until it's rolled out to all ECI cabs.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: burakkucat on July 17, 2020, 06:18:12 PM
My Home Hub 5A with OpenWRT on it couldn't hold a stable sync with G.INP but I believe the "official" firmware may do.  Can't really see how they could roll it out if they hadn't fixed their own firmware.

Your BT Home Hub 5A was supplied by BT Retail. Openreach are not BT Retail. BT Retail are not Openreach. The firmware for the BT Home Hub 5A was created for, and distributed by, BT Retail.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on July 17, 2020, 06:59:51 PM
Your BT Home Hub 5A was supplied by BT Retail. Openreach are not BT Retail. BT Retail are not Openreach. The firmware for the BT Home Hub 5A was created for, and distributed by, BT Retail.

True, but as they discontinued the previous trial due to hardware problems and AFAIK HH5A was a big part of that, what makes that any different today?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: burakkucat on July 17, 2020, 10:12:51 PM
. . . what makes that any different today?

The complete severage of the inter-company links has now taken place.  :)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on July 18, 2020, 12:06:43 AM
True, but as they discontinued the previous trial due to hardware problems and AFAIK HH5A was a big part of that, what makes that any different today?

What makes you think it was the HH5A?

I don't think anyone has the slightest clue what modems resulted in the last trial being stopped.

It wasn't necessarily the modems that saw issues during the very 1st rollout.
Those modems saw increased latency and a drop in sync.

The last trial was stopped due to a bitswapping issues but that's the only details OpenReach gave.

My Home Hub 5A with OpenWRT on it couldn't hold a stable sync with G.INP but I believe the "official" firmware may do.  Can't really see how they could roll it out if they hadn't fixed their own firmware.

That's assuming those in bold are 1 and the same entity.

Unless by the 2nd "they" you were referring to OpenReach and their ECI modem.  ::)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on July 18, 2020, 03:13:33 AM
Has anyone seen any posts anywhere ECI GINP has been blamed for a problem with their line? 

I've not seen anything negative I am just hoping that a more wider rollout is going soon or even it being rolled out to everyone.

Once GINP is rolled out I can then start with hoping for 3db.  I can dream :)


It's not worked out too well for my line :'(

The problem isn't so much G.INP but rather G.INP is totally ineffective with certain types of REIN and SHINE.   My line suffers from a daily burst of SHINE each day that lasts for a couple of seconds and then is ok for the rest of the day.   No amount of G.INP or Interleaving is going to be able to correct that burst of noise, but problem being the DLM sees it and thinks it should try correct it.    Doesnt help that ECI cabs are not following the #error seconds rule and is penalising lines with much lower amounts of err secs.

This is a summary of how its worked out on my line.   I'm currently banded at 60Mpbs with High Re-TX   :( 

Code: [Select]
16/03/2020 No G.INP Connection speed (kbps): 66037 20000
17/03/2020 G.INP applied Connection speed (kbps): 68019 20000
29/03/2020 Resync modem Connection speed (kbps): 68960 20000
11/04/2020 DLM > Retx High Connection speed (kbps): 67984 20000
13/04/2020 DLM > Capped 67Mbps Connection speed (kbps): 66999 20000
23/04/2020 DLM > Capped 60Mbps Connection speed (kbps): 60000 20000


As you can imagine with re-tx high, then my actual throughput speed is <55Mbps :'(


 
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ejs on July 18, 2020, 03:32:48 PM
I don't think anyone has the slightest clue what modems resulted in the last trial being stopped.

Which was the last trial? The one in 2016 had an issue with Lantiq modems locking up for which updated modem firmware was available.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on July 18, 2020, 03:37:39 PM
I was on the 2016 trial.still waiting for this one...
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: grahamb on July 28, 2020, 05:25:30 AM
So anyway, I had notification around 2.35am from AAISP that my line had gone down/come back up. And would you Adam and Eve it....

(Spot the difference.  ;))

Before:

Code: [Select]
xdslctl info --stats
xdslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason:    1
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 21412 Kbps, Downstream rate = 66011 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 55815 Kbps

Link Power State:       L0
Mode:                   VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile:          Profile 17a
TPS-TC:                 PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):        5.9             6.0
Attn(dB):        13.5            0.0
Pwr(dBm):        2.2             2.2

                        VDSL2 framing
                        Bearer 0
MSGc:           18              150
B:              51              236
M:              1               1
T:              64              5
R:              12              16
S:              0.0296          0.3771
L:              17272           5410
D:              1093            1
I:              64              255
N:              64              255

                        Counters
                        Bearer 0
OHF:            676057347               2099310
OHFErr:         0               2056
RS:             1271855815              3042399
RSCorr:         1820509         25498
RSUnCorr:       0               0

                        Bearer 0
HEC:            0               0
OCD:            0               0
LCD:            0               0
Total Cells:    767947071               0
Data Cells:     1075736016              0
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     0               0

ES:             11264           3344
SES:            27              0
UAS:            123             102
AS:             1287924

                        Bearer 0
INP:            3.00            0.00
INPRein:        0.00            0.00
delay:          8               0
PER:            1.90            6.15
OR:             100.80          202.87
AgR:            55915.57        20203.27

Bitswap:        9633/9633               13123/13129

Total time = 25 days 3 hours 51 min 55 sec
FEC:            5516919         41426
CRC:            5101            3548
ES:             11264           3344
SES:            27              0
UAS:            123             102
LOS:            2               0
LOF:            16              0
LOM:            0               0
Latest 15 minutes time = 6 min 55 sec
FEC:            6               0
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC:            1               27
CRC:            0               1
ES:             0               1
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Latest 1 day time = 3 hours 51 min 55 sec
FEC:            7192            372
CRC:            0               23
ES:             0               21
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC:            43068           1460
CRC:            0               150
ES:             0               136
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Since Link time = 14 days 21 hours 45 min 26 sec
FEC:            1820509         25498
CRC:            0               2056
ES:             0               1883
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
NTR: mipsCntAtNtr=0 ncoCntAtNtr=0
 >

After:

Code: [Select]
xdslctl info --stats
xdslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason:    1
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 21383 Kbps, Downstream rate = 60203 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 60013 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State:       L0
Mode:                   VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile:          Profile 17a
TPS-TC:                 PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):        6.4             6.3
Attn(dB):        13.6            0.0
Pwr(dBm):        2.3             2.3

                        VDSL2 framing
                        Bearer 0
MSGc:           -6              150
B:              244             236
M:              1               1
T:              0               5
R:              10              16
S:              0.0000          0.3771
L:              15757           5410
D:              1               1
I:              255             255
N:              255             255
Q:              4               0
V:              3               0
RxQueue:                96              0
TxQueue:                32              0
G.INP Framing:          18              0
G.INP lookback:         31              0
RRC bits:               0               24
                        Bearer 1
MSGc:           154             -6
B:              0               0
M:              2               0
T:              2               0
R:              16              0
S:              6.4000          0.0000
L:              40              0
D:              3               0
I:              32              0
N:              32              0
Q:              0               0
V:              0               0
RxQueue:                0               0
TxQueue:                0               0
G.INP Framing:          0               0
G.INP lookback:         0               0
RRC bits:               0               0

                        Counters
                        Bearer 0
OHF:            0               1438949
OHFErr:         0               14
RS:             271135324               3291149
RSCorr:         44              126
RSUnCorr:       0               0
                        Bearer 1
OHF:            548544          0
OHFErr:         0               0
RS:             5484825         0
RSCorr:         3               0
RSUnCorr:       0               0

                        Retransmit Counters
rtx_tx:         35              0
rtx_c:          16              0
rtx_uc:         0               0

                        G.INP Counters
LEFTRS:         0               0
minEFTR:        60001           0
errFreeBits:    8062063         0

                        Bearer 0
HEC:            0               0
OCD:            0               0
LCD:            0               0
Total Cells:    1016872002              0
Data Cells:     616668          0
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     0               0

                        Bearer 1
HEC:            0               0
OCD:            0               0
LCD:            0               0
Total Cells:    0               0
Data Cells:     0               0
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     0               0

ES:             11274           3366
SES:            37              0
UAS:            160             129
AS:             8814

                        Bearer 0
INP:            48.00           0.00
INPRein:        0.00            0.00
delay:          0               0
PER:            0.00            6.15
OR:             0.01            202.87
AgR:            60320.68        20203.27

                        Bearer 1
INP:            4.50            0.00
INPRein:        4.50            0.00
delay:          3               0
PER:            16.06           0.01
OR:             79.68           0.01
AgR:            79.68   0.01

Bitswap:        606/606         283/283

Total time = 25 days 8 hours 57 min 59 sec
FEC:            5520839         41635
CRC:            10265           3574
ES:             11274           3366
SES:            37              0
UAS:            160             129
LOS:            3               0
LOF:            23              0
LOM:            0               0
Latest 15 minutes time = 12 min 59 sec
FEC:            0               6
CRC:            0               1
ES:             0               1
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC:            9               26
CRC:            0               5
ES:             0               2
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Latest 1 day time = 8 hours 57 min 59 sec
FEC:            11112           581
CRC:            5164            49
ES:             10              43
SES:            10              0
UAS:            37              27
LOS:            1               0
LOF:            7               0
LOM:            0               0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC:            43068           1460
CRC:            0               150
ES:             0               136
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Since Link time = 2 hours 26 min 53 sec
FEC:            44              126
CRC:            0               14
ES:             0               11
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
NTR: mipsCntAtNtr=0 ncoCntAtNtr=0
 >

 ;D

I know my line now has G.INP applied but not sure what the new numbers mean; eg is it now on Fastpath? How does it look to the educated eye?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: tubaman on July 28, 2020, 08:30:34 AM
Congratulations and welcome to G.INP!
You should be on Fastpath as I believe G.INP lines always are.
Hopefully in a few days your journey to 3dB on the downstream side will begin.
 :)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: grahamb on July 28, 2020, 08:44:01 AM
3db? Even on an ECI cab?

Oh, hang on, the clue is in the thread title, isn't it....  :)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: broadstairs on July 28, 2020, 09:23:20 AM
Yup, I've been on G.INP on my ECI cabinet for 47+ days now with no interruptions at all and no 3db either. I suspect this is just the G.INP test at present and they will want a lot more testing before changing anything else. I hope they dont want to mess anything up just as much as we dont want it either.

Stuart
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on July 28, 2020, 09:56:51 AM
Is AAISP actively adding users to the trial or is this just a random lucky user added by Openreach?

Positive news that users are still being added I wish the trial rollout was quicker though.  I feel a decision for a full rollout may never happen and I'll have FTTP before Ginp on ECI!
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on July 28, 2020, 07:21:36 PM
I'm with Zen. They told me it's down to OR and they couldn't request me to  be added even though I badgered them to sign up to the trial which they are now on...🙄🙄🙄
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on July 29, 2020, 07:20:05 PM
AAISP say they have no control over who's added to the trial.

The ability for ISP's to add users manually went months ago with only Plusnet taking up that offer.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: g3uiss on July 29, 2020, 07:40:20 PM
Do we know if / when the trial will end and or if they have had any issues ?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Dave2150 on August 02, 2020, 02:09:26 PM
Still waiting for G.INP to be enabled on my aluminium line (ECI & aluminium, what a desirable combo..).  I'd have thought we'd have heard more news of the second "trial" by now - with perhaps a notice of when ISP's have to replace non functioning modems with models certified to work well with ECI/G.INP.

Sadly the last big FTTP rollout news doesn't include my area (Port Talbot, South Wales), so I'm likely to remain with this terrible line for years to come. Hoping for good G.INP news soon!
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on August 02, 2020, 02:14:37 PM
Been waiting since 2016... zen tell me they have no option to put lines forward even though  they are on the trial.

Be great to see it again but who knows when....
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on August 02, 2020, 03:16:27 PM
This isn't an area based trial, but ISP opt in. 

I am assuming [based on previous Openreach trials] that the ISP originally had 2 methods of opting in:
1) Offering all of their lines to be part of the trial or
2) Offering a limited number of lines.


Method 1.
Openreach randomly selects approx 50% of lines to be actively on the trial whilst the other 50% are used as a baseline comparison.
At the beginning of the trial, Openreach will usually advise the ISP a list of all the lines actively selected and the ISP has a few days to withdraw any particular lines from the list that they don't wish participating in the trial.

Method 2.
This is usually reserved for smaller trials or if the ISP wants to actively monitor the effects of the trial more closely. 
It is usually only staff lines which are submitted using this method.    I suspect this may be the method Bob Pullen used and it will be why he couldn't submit any more lines after the cut off date and why he was interested in the results of those who were put on the trial by asking them to post in the thread.

We did hear from a fairly reputable source that Openreach did at one point suspend any new lines being added to the trial.  However bearing in mind that we've since seen at least one more ISP go on the trial, IMO it's more likely that they are not accepting any more submissions via method 2 - which did have a hard cut-off date anyhow.
In that case it will be true what the respective ISPs are saying in that they do not have any choice which lines get G.INP activated and which don't.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Dave2150 on August 02, 2020, 03:51:01 PM
This isn't an area based trial, but ISP opt in. 

I am assuming [based on previous Openreach trials] that the ISP originally had 2 methods of opting in:
1) Offering all of their lines to be part of the trial or
2) Offering a limited number of lines.


Method 1.
Openreach randomly selects approx 50% of lines to be actively on the trial whilst the other 50% are used as a baseline comparison.
At the beginning of the trial, Openreach will usually advise the ISP a list of all the lines actively selected and the ISP has a few days to withdraw any particular lines from the list that they don't wish participating in the trial.

Method 2.
This is usually reserved for smaller trials or if the ISP wants to actively monitor the effects of the trial more closely. 
It is usually only staff lines which are submitted using this method.    I suspect this may be the method Bob Pullen used and it will be why he couldn't submit any more lines after the cut off date and why he was interested in the results of those who were put on the trial by asking them to post in the thread.

We did hear from a fairly reputable source that Openreach did at one point suspend any new lines being added to the trial.  However bearing in mind that we've since seen at least one more ISP go on the trial, IMO it's more likely that they are not accepting any more submissions via method 2 - which did have a hard cut-off date anyhow.
In that case it will be true what the respective ISPs are saying in that they do not have any choice which lines get G.INP activated and which don't.

Thanks for the info. I'm with BT retail, haven't been able to find any info whether they took part in the trial or not. I'd assume they would, but you never know!

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on August 05, 2020, 02:12:42 AM
Update:  Had an email from someone with Sky who has recently had G.INP switched on for their ECI line. 
Not sure if it makes any difference, but their account is what was one of the ex BE* Sky Pro accounts.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on August 05, 2020, 02:54:58 AM
Good news that lines are still being added to the trial.  I do hope it gets through the trial and rolled out. I wished there was a bit more information on timescales.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: grahamb on August 05, 2020, 09:07:57 AM
Awww....

Code: [Select]
Stats recorded 05 Aug 2020 08:56:01

DSLAM type / SW version: IFTN:0xb206 (178.6) / v0xb206
Modem/router firmware:  AnnexA version - A2pv6F039v.d26a
DSL mode:                VDSL2 Profile 17a
Status:                  Showtime
Uptime:                  7 hours 3 min 31 sec
Resyncs:                5 (since 19 Jun 2020 22:43:28)

Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB):  13.6 0.0
Signal attenuation (dB): Not monitored
Connection speed (kbps): 55143 20000
SNR margin (dB):        6.3 6.3
Power (dBm):            2.4 2.3
Interleave depth:        1079 1
INP:                    3.00 0
G.INP:                  Not enabled Not enabled
Vectoring status:        5 (VECT_UNCONFIGURED)

RSCorr/RS (%):          0.0004 0.0112
RSUnCorr/RS (%):        0.0000 0.0000
ES/hour:                1.12 5.15


 What's that about?  :'(
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: art37 on August 05, 2020, 09:54:22 AM
My line was G.INP-enabled 12 days ago (AAISP). The uncorrected error rate was negligible and speed increased by 9M. G.INP was removed last night. :'(
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: broadstairs on August 05, 2020, 11:10:10 AM
Mine was enabled 55+ days ago and is still OK. I do have an issue on my upstream which is not enabled where I get burst of errors some times, mainly during the working week, this morning I've had 490 ES upstream which started around 7am with 20 rising to 200 between 8 & 9am now dropping back. Just hope this does not cause DLM to get involved. My downstream is as solid as a rock at 67meg. Those ES up have caused a load of SES during that period.

Stuart
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on August 05, 2020, 11:15:41 AM
I am getting the feeling the trial is going to fail again.  How many years have they been trying to get this working even though it has been working fine for all but a very small percentage of people?

If it does fail anyone suffering on ECI cabs should get guaranteed FTTP within 12months. That would focus OR to get things sorted!
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on August 05, 2020, 12:18:58 PM
I am getting the feeling the trial is going to fail again.  How many years have they been trying to get this working even though it has been working fine for all but a very small percentage of people?

If it does fail anyone suffering on ECI cabs should get guaranteed FTTP within 12months. That would focus OR to get things sorted!

LOL Good luck with that, FTTP is delayed on my exchange because its taking them a year to upgrade the exchanges power systems to cope.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on August 05, 2020, 01:11:37 PM
Awww....

 What's that about?  :'(

There is another AAISP user on the forum who had G.INP on ECI and it was removed last night.
Maybe they have withdrawn from the trial?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: grahamb on August 05, 2020, 06:01:57 PM
I did a bit of searching and found this: https://aastatus.net/2127 . It's five and a half years old but I'm assuming the details are still relevant. All I can say is that my downstream speed saw an increase of 5MB, without a single downstream error, during the trial.

It were good while it lasted...
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: broadstairs on August 06, 2020, 07:57:25 AM
Following on from my comment yesterday dlm acted this morning to put upstream on interleaving but left downstream alone, still has g.inp and no change in speed still 67000 mbps. I'm pretty sure the up issues with random high es count is external to me and since it happens intermittently is possibly cuased by either roadworks on cabinet/duct work. My up has always been flakey.

Stuart
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on August 06, 2020, 11:09:54 AM
AAISP say they have no control over who's added to the trial.

The ability for ISP's to add users manually went months ago with only Plusnet taking up that offer.

I was told this as well.

The problem is I was talking with them about it months ago at the time plusnet were adding users, AAISP off the ball on this sorry to say.  I didnt post it at the time, as was just disappointed, with the price point they at and their reputation for been in the lead in this sort of thing, and it turned out to be quite different.

Also the trial was suspended and then resumed, so that had an effect on things as well.

Cannot say I am too surprised at only plusnet taking it up though as the lead reason the last g.inp rollout got abandoned was the CP's lobbying openreach to cancel it because they couldnt ride through a short term increase of load on their technical support lines.  Its the old lets not upset the apple cart thing hindering progress.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on August 06, 2020, 11:34:59 AM
If the trial fails, ECI could be interleaved only, as fast path may be going regardless of the result.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on August 07, 2020, 12:48:20 AM
If the trial fails, ECI could be interleaved only, as fast path may be going regardless of the result.

That would be a good way to guarantee a lot of cheesed off gamers.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on August 07, 2020, 01:40:37 PM
I think latency related complaints are tiny, is a fair few for speed, but for latency extremely low.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: h0110 on August 07, 2020, 03:37:17 PM
On ECI Cab with BT. Strangely I've gone from G.INP disabled to enabled to couple of days ago being disabled yet again  :'(

Was very happy with G.INP - had lower pings + barely any errors

G.INP +

Code: [Select]
xdslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 1
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 25519 Kbps, Downstream rate = 84478 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79999 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 7.0 9.5
Attn(dB): 14.1 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 3.1 3.1

VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: -6 150
B: 178 236
M: 1 1
T: 0 5
R: 6 16
S: 0.0000 0.3771
L: 20780 5410
D: 1 1
I: 185 255
N: 185 255
Q: 16 0
V: 2 0
RxQueue: 42 0
TxQueue: 14 0
G.INP Framing: 18 0
G.INP lookback: 14 0
RRC bits: 0 24
Bearer 1
MSGc: 186 -6
B: 0 0
M: 2 0
T: 2 0
R: 16 0
S: 5.3333 0.0000
L: 48 0
D: 3 0
I: 32 0
N: 32 0
Q: 0 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 0 0
TxQueue: 0 0
G.INP Framing: 0 0
G.INP lookback: 0 0
RRC bits: 0 0

Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 0 2614091
OHFErr: 0 0
RS: 895433776 2328240
RSCorr: 144 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Bearer 1
OHF: 996544 0
OHFErr: 0 0
RS: 11957790 0
RSCorr: 0 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0

Retransmit Counters
rtx_tx: 69426 0
rtx_c: 251 0
rtx_uc: 74424 0

G.INP Counters
LEFTRS: 10 0
minEFTR: 79982 0
errFreeBits: 105722235 0

Bearer 0
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 2462594590 0
Data Cells: 75088010 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

Bearer 1
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 0 0
Data Cells: 0 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 11 11
SES: 11 10
UAS: 64 53
AS: 16013

Bearer 0
INP: 46.00 0.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 0.00 6.15
OR: 0.01 202.87
AgR: 80111.28 20203.27

Bearer 1
INP: 4.00 0.00
INPRein: 4.00 0.00
delay: 3 0
PER: 16.06 0.01
OR: 95.62 0.01
AgR: 95.62 0.01

Bitswap: 371/371 15/16

Total time = 14 hours 16 min 53 sec
FEC: 28676 25
CRC: 567 1
ES: 11 11
SES: 11 10
UAS: 64 53
LOS: 1 0
LOF: 7 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 1 min 53 sec
FEC: 13 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 14 hours 16 min 53 sec
FEC: 28676 25
CRC: 567 1
ES: 11 11
SES: 11 10
UAS: 64 53
LOS: 1 0
LOF: 7 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Since Link time = 4 hours 26 min 51 sec
FEC: 144 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
NTR: mipsCntAtNtr=0 ncoCntAtNtr=0

Non-G.INP (Did a re-sync 2 days ago)

Code: [Select]
xdslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 25989 Kbps, Downstream rate = 89727 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 74558 Kbps

Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.3 9.7
Attn(dB): 14.3 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 3.6 3.5

VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: 18 150
B: 51 236
M: 1 1
T: 64 5
R: 12 16
S: 0.0222 0.3771
L: 23072 5410
D: 1459 1
I: 64 255
N: 64 255

Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 63116 14592
OHFErr: 0 0
RS: 15979838 948043
RSCorr: 0 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0

Bearer 0
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 12902929 0
Data Cells: 1680327 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 27 27
AS: 91

Bearer 0
INP: 3.00 0.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 8 0
PER: 1.42 6.15
OR: 134.66 202.87
AgR: 74692.23 20203.27

Bitswap: 6/6 0/0

Total time = 1 min 58 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 27 27
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 1 min 58 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 27 27
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 1 min 58 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 27 27
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Since Link time = 1 min 29 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
NTR: mipsCntAtNtr=0 ncoCntAtNtr=0

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: broadstairs on August 08, 2020, 10:04:30 PM
A further update... this morning DLM removed my upstream interleaving but touched nothing else so still G.INP on downstream and same speeds etc.

Stuart
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on August 09, 2020, 02:28:01 PM
 :D - have to say I am quite disappointed with Zen's response to my questions with them taking part in the trial. They don't actually answer the question and referred me back to to the document I sent to them in the first place months ago...... :D...
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on August 09, 2020, 09:29:22 PM
Bit concerning of the reports of people getting it then losing it, dejavu of when it got rolled back.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on August 09, 2020, 10:21:44 PM
Bit concerning of the reports of people getting it then losing it, dejavu of when it got rolled back.

Perhaps a bit premature to worry, I've had it since the Plusnet opt-in and nothing has changed.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on August 09, 2020, 11:40:50 PM
Perhaps a bit premature to worry, I've had it since the Plusnet opt-in and nothing has changed.

ditto
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on August 10, 2020, 01:08:32 PM
question is, is there anyone not on that special plusnet trial who still has it?
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Dave2150 on August 10, 2020, 01:11:03 PM
Good to see more lines getting G.INP, worrying to see some getting it turned off...

Do we know if BT are allowed to deploy any further Huawei FTTC cabinets from now on?

If they are completely banned from doing so (or if they will be banned past a certain date) then you'd assume it will be all ECI (or another vendor, Nokia?) cabinets deployed from that point on. May give them added incentive to permanently fix this.

I assume over the next few years some cabinets are going to have hardware failure, and I highly doubt FTTP will have 100% coverage by then.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on August 10, 2020, 01:23:41 PM
question is, is there anyone not on that special plusnet trial who still has it?

Yes.
Broadstairs is with Talktalk and he confirmed 2 days ago G.INP was still active.
Seems to still be active on a couple Zen lines also.

I've only seen 2 people complain it has been removed so far.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on August 10, 2020, 01:42:20 PM
 :fingers:
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Jaseb4920 on August 10, 2020, 01:51:45 PM
Hi guys I’m on ECI cabinet roughly 150 metres from the cabinet usually get 63/20 ping 12 with sky had a resync on 26 June early hours speeds Increased to 70/20 and ping now 5 and has been rock solid since I’m using sky’s sr203 router which I find very good but no way of finding out if G.INP is active but from the increased speed and decreased ping I’m guessing so, I was on it a few years back where I used to live and had pretty much the same results with no problems! So let’s hope it’s here to stay this time as no problems found and us ECI users definitely need it! 🤞🤞🤞
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on August 10, 2020, 05:48:38 PM
You would see a very similar increase in sync and decrease in latency going from Interleaved to Fastpath as you would going from Interleaved to G.INP.

You really need a modem that tells you if G.INP is active to tell for definite if it's running or have the ISP tell you the current line profile.

I don't know if Sky support are able to run GEA tests or view the current DLM line profile.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Jaseb4920 on August 10, 2020, 06:26:51 PM
You would see a very similar increase in sync and decrease in latency going from Interleaved to Fastpath as you would going from Interleaved to G.INP.

You really need a modem that tells you if G.INP is active to tell for definite if it's running or have the ISP tell you the current line profile.

I don't know if Sky support are able to run GEA tests or view the current DLM line profile.

I’ve always had a speed of 63/20 since I’ve been here just over a year and the line is always rock solid, so I’m guessing it’s gotta be G.INP 😃
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on August 10, 2020, 06:49:58 PM
I was simply pointing out that Fastpath and G.INP would both see a 8ms drop in latency and a similar increase in sync.

There's no reason it couldn't be fastpath, just because your line has always been Interleaved.
Lines start Interleaved and many stay that way.

If the line was rock solid why is it interleaved for over a year without ever trying fastpath?  ::)

It in no way means it's "gotta be" G.INP.

Given the small numbers reporting G.INP active and nobody else on Sky reporting it yet, it's more than likely not, but it could be, or not.

Without a modem that tells you for definite, or confirmation of the line profile, there's no way to tell either way.

No old HG612 lying around?
Would be good to get confirmation Sky are part of this trial.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Dave2150 on August 10, 2020, 07:23:08 PM
I’ve always had a speed of 63/20 since I’ve been here just over a year and the line is always rock solid, so I’m guessing it’s gotta be G.INP 😃

99% likely it's G.INP, lucky you!  :D
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: h0110 on August 15, 2020, 12:39:40 PM
Update! INP completely off and back at 80/20  but without G.INP this time. Strange but I'll take it  ???

Code: [Select]
xdslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 1
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 25757 Kbps, Downstream rate = 82874 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79987 Kbps

Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.8 9.3
Attn(dB): 14.1 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 3.1 3.1

VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: 18 150
B: 239 236
M: 1 1
T: 23 5
R: 0 16
S: 0.0955 0.3771
L: 20104 5410
D: 1 1
I: 240 255
N: 240 255

Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 16389451 1687590
OHFErr: 33 0
RS: 0 4127227
RSCorr: 0 3
RSUnCorr: 0 0

Bearer 0
HEC: 5 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 4169476181 0
Data Cells: 779814984 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 37 0
SES: 10 0
UAS: 64 54
AS: 27115

Bearer 0
INP: 0.00 0.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 1.65 6.15
OR: 116.09 202.87
AgR: 80103.09 20203.27

Bitswap: 503/503 7/7

Total time = 1 days 16 hours 16 min 14 sec
FEC: 0 3
CRC: 33 0
ES: 37 0
SES: 10 0
UAS: 64 54
LOS: 1 0
LOF: 8 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 1 min 14 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 16 hours 16 min 14 sec
FEC: 0 3
CRC: 33 0
ES: 37 0
SES: 10 0
UAS: 37 27
LOS: 1 0
LOF: 8 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 27 27
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Since Link time = 7 hours 31 min 53 sec
FEC: 0 3
CRC: 33 0
ES: 27 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
NTR: mipsCntAtNtr=0 ncoCntAtNtr=0
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on August 15, 2020, 10:28:49 PM
Feel like I gettting trolled when the aaisp line down sms comes in, thinking "is it g.inp?"

Nope, one was I think a TT or aaisp outage, and another was my pfsense unit going down.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on August 16, 2020, 11:44:57 AM
This guy has had it since the start with those limited plus net lines. Good to see he still has it enabled on his line.


Stats
Stats recorded 16 Aug 2020 11:43:58

DSLAM type / SW version:   IFTN:0xb206 (178.6) / v0xb206
Modem/router firmware:     AnnexA version - A2pv6F039t.d26d
DSL mode:                  VDSL2 Profile 17a
Status:                    Showtime
Uptime:                    1 day 4 hours 6 min 57 sec
Resyncs:                   2 (since 12 Aug 2020 07:49:50)
         
            Downstream   Upstream
Line attenuation (dB):     16.0      0.0
Signal attenuation (dB):   Not available on VDSL2      
Connection speed (kbps):   66317      17036
SNR margin (dB):           6.2      6.0
Power (dBm):               6.8      6.8
Interleave depth:          1      215
INP:                       49.00      2.50
G.INP:                     Enabled      Not enabled
Vectoring status:          5 (VECT_UNCONFIGURED)      

RSCorr/RS (%):             0.0001      0.0031
RSUnCorr/RS (%):           0.0000      0.0000
ES/hour:                   0      0
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on August 20, 2020, 05:39:59 PM
ECI Ginp has failed again.  Apparently there is a report but as usual it is confidential.  Hopefully more information will be released if anyone has more information would appreciate some detail.  Thanks
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on August 20, 2020, 06:45:55 PM
ECI Ginp has failed again.

Are you just leaping to that assumption from the ISPreview article or from another source?

ISPreview have basically written that article based on reports on this forum about G.INP disappearing from a couple lines.

He links to this OpenReach briefing:

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefingsarticles/nga02320.do

but all that says is

Quote
This briefing is to update CPs on the ReTransmission trial as published in NGA017/20

Not so sure that means the trial has failed.
The briefing might say all is going well and is being expanded for all we know.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on August 20, 2020, 07:41:38 PM
Yes I can categorically say I am leaping to assumptions.  I really hope I am proved wrong though but as everything is so secret and slow it is infuriating.

As an ECI cab sufferer these cabinets should have been returned and replaced at least with something that offer the same level of speed and resilience that users on Huwaei cabs can take advantage of.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: broadstairs on August 20, 2020, 08:38:00 PM
It's  been working for me for a long time now but then it did last time so who  knows?

Stuart
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on August 20, 2020, 11:08:48 PM
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/08/openreach-g-inp-trial-on-eci-fttc-broadband-lines-hits-snag.html

Still active on my line however.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: tubaman on August 21, 2020, 08:52:29 AM
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/08/openreach-g-inp-trial-on-eci-fttc-broadband-lines-hits-snag.html

Still active on my line however.

Update today - looks like they have hit some issues (again  :()

"Extract from Openreach Briefing on G.INP

Unfortunately the larger loads towards the end of the trial have highlighted some unforeseeable issues whereby CPE [VDSL broadband routers etc.] would fail to sync, despite the GEA Service Test usually showing the circuit as testing ok. Our early root-cause analysis has indicated that this is related to an issue in the DSLAM.

We have discussed the issue with impacted CPs and, as a precautionary step while further analysis is undertaken, we have acted promptly to remove ReTx from any ECI lines that could be negatively affected. Further updates will follow once we have more information."
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: ktz392837 on August 21, 2020, 09:44:54 AM
Thanks for the update.

Tldr the ECI DSLAMs are rubbish
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Weaver on August 21, 2020, 10:43:43 AM
How did we ever get into this state in the first place ? What happened- did BT ‘forget’ to write up the requirements spec properly and just bought up some random piece of junk from ECI? Was it a surprise when BT got the garbage from ECI?

(mods - I think this is OTT possibly; if you agree could/should we split this off into a new thread?)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Dave2150 on August 21, 2020, 11:36:54 AM
Sigh. Hope whoever was responsible for the compliance, testing and QA for the DSLAMS at BT Openreach is fired over this mess, though in this day and age they probably just got a promotion.

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on August 21, 2020, 10:24:29 PM
How did we ever get into this state in the first place ? What happened- did BT ‘forget’ to write up the requirements spec properly and just bought up some random piece of junk from ECI? Was it a surprise when BT got the garbage from ECI?

(mods - I think this is OTT possibly; if you agree could/should we split this off into a new thread?)

I remember saying I had never heard of ECI as a company before they were mentioned as a supplier to openreach VDSL.

Its an isreal based company which america has political ties to, there is the slandering of hauwei who make equipment that works.  (not by openreach of course but politically by america), and one does wonder if political intervention played a part in ECI getting the contract or if it was just incompetence from openreach.

The issue that baffles me is that clearly openreach want g.inp, there is a business case as again and again they keep running trials.  There must be a point where its more sensible to just swap out the cabinets to equipment they know that works.

Also they have kind of dug their own grave on this, there should have been a list of whitelisted modems deemed to be compliant, and only those modems should have been allowed to be active on the vdsl network, there is a reason other telco's whitelist equipment (not always security).  I expect the reason they not correcting this is because neither openreach or the CPs want to cover the cost as it would involve replacing modem's in people's homes.

The rolling out of M41's instead of V41's also showed a lack of foresight.  Although in regards to g.inp its unknown if the V41's would have any benefit.

Meanwhile cityfibre have started digging streets in my city, so I think its very possible I will end up never having g.inp enabled in my use of vdsl.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Dave2150 on August 22, 2020, 02:43:22 PM
I remember saying I had never heard of ECI as a company before they were mentioned as a supplier to openreach VDSL.

Its an isreal based company which america has political ties to, there is the slandering of hauwei who make equipment that works.  (not by openreach of course but politically by america), and one does wonder if political intervention played a part in ECI getting the contract or if it was just incompetence from openreach.

The issue that baffles me is that clearly openreach want g.inp, there is a business case as again and again they keep running trials.  There must be a point where its more sensible to just swap out the cabinets to equipment they know that works.

Also they have kind of dug their own grave on this, there should have been a list of whitelisted modems deemed to be compliant, and only those modems should have been allowed to be active on the vdsl network, there is a reason other telco's whitelist equipment (not always security).  I expect the reason they not correcting this is because neither openreach or the CPs want to cover the cost as it would involve replacing modem's in people's homes.

The rolling out of M41's instead of V41's also showed a lack of foresight.  Although in regards to g.inp its unknown if the V41's would have any benefit.

Meanwhile cityfibre have started digging streets in my city, so I think its very possible I will end up never having g.inp enabled in my use of vdsl.

I believe it's standard practice to always adopt two separate vendors for such critical components of the networks. Using one DSLAM/line card vendor throughout the UK would not be wise, as that vendor would have powerful leverage over pricing, supply etc. Tbh I  wouldn't want a world where we use Chinese technology exclusively for our communications network, current political issues aside.

IMO the issue lies completely with the person/team who were evaluating the competing DSLAM vendors prior to their approval. Surely one step of the testing would be to turn on and test all the features they were planning to implement, G.INP included? How did the ECI cabinet get the green light to be approved? Something very fishy here.

Nokia seem like a competent vendor with a good track record, I wonder if their DSLAM's work properly with G.INP? I know they offer vectoring technologies.



Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on August 22, 2020, 03:44:31 PM
In their defence OpenReach signed up ECI when VDSL2 was a very new technology.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Dave2150 on August 22, 2020, 04:39:06 PM
In their defence OpenReach signed up ECI when VDSL2 was a very new technology.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

G.INP was approved in 2010. The vast majority of ECI cabinets were installed after this date, so I disagree with your comment about hindsight. Incompetence is a more appropriate term.

The team testing the ECI cabinets made a huge lapse of judgement, by not testing that G.INP worked properly on the ECI M41 DSLAMs, before installing so many of them.

VDSL2 was approved in early 2006, so I also disagree with your comment that VDSL2 was a new technology at that point.

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on August 22, 2020, 06:57:14 PM
G.INP wasn't active on the Huawei cabinets when they were installed either.

Just because G.INP was approved in 2010 that doesn't magically mean everything will work with it.

It would have been impossible for OpenReach to test G.INP on the ECI DSLAM's prior to then picking them as a Vendor.
Every modem doesn't magically get G.INP the day it's approved.

The OpenReach modems didn't even support G.INP for a few years.

I think OpenReach made a mess of the ECI estate.
Once VDSL2 matured and the G.INP issues and the lack of system wide Vectoring was apparent OpenReach should have swapped the M41s for V41s like other Telecom did.

The issues with G.INP could not be predicted.
OpenReach wouldn't have been able to test it when picking the Vendor.
It wasn't even seen in the network till 2015.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on August 22, 2020, 07:30:43 PM
I think its fair to say that Openreach will have been placing orders for ECI cabinets before system based vectoring became a thing.   ECI were actually the first manufacturer to make system based vectored DSLAMS in 2012 - From memory they was first trialled in some South/Latin American country in 2012.  By this time Openreach were already installing the M41's in the UK.
 
The timing is rather unfortunate as ECI had a really good reputation in the likes of Germany and France when Openreach commenced rollout.  ECI was favoured by Deutsche Telekom & France Telecom where they were used extensively. I remember someone saying back in 2012/2013 that the ECI DSLAMS at the time were considered superior to the Huaweis.   

ECI's failure perhaps was the lack of options for modular upgrades... in part due to lack of space on the backplane. Ironically the DSLAM small size is one of the factors which originally made it popular.   That said, whilst the Huawei MA5616 is upgradable it does mean replacing practically every part.   

Bearing in mind that BT/Openreach never rely on just one manufacturer, then back in ~2011 ECI probably was a good choice at the time

>> The rolling out of M41's instead of V41's also showed a lack of foresight.

Fact is that Openreach will have already placed orders for FTTC DSLAM rollout before the V41's became commercially available. As I said above - bad timing. 

iirc, early versions of G.998.4 (re-tx) were downstream only and whilst technologies may have been approved at certain dates, it doesn't mean to say that manufacturers were actually making them available on their chipsets at that time.  Same as with vectoring, the theory of system based vectoring was ITU approved before any DSLAM manufacturer started making it available for roll-out in the wild.

>> G.INP was approved in 2010.

It can take a few years after invention before such things become available. Manufacturers tend to wait until the ITU specifications are set before they start to manufacture equipment to be able to meet those requirements.   So just because the theory and specifications were there, doesn't mean to say that such equipment is actually commercially available.   Same on the retail side, heck - look how long it took even after FTTC rollout before you could purchase a VDSL2 modem/router. 


---------

By the sounds of it, it seems like the recent failure is down to one particular ISP's CPE being incompatible with the ECI DSLAMs.   Deja vu.  :'(
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on August 22, 2020, 09:42:38 PM
I understand what you saying kitz, but the V41 was probably at least in the development stage, and a major customer such as BT likely would have been informed of that, and I would be surprised if no option was available to switch before they finished deployment or post deployment as j0hn suggested,   We will never know of course, but to me this seems a complete mess.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on August 22, 2020, 11:34:24 PM
Quote
and I would be surprised if no option was available to switch before they finished deployment or post deployment as j0hn suggested,

I 'think' there may have been something available circa 2015/16 to upgrade to V41's at a discounted price...  or at least that's what DT appeared to do but they appeared more interested in the advances for system based vectoring rather than g.inp.  Vectoring has far more benefits than g.inp for the SP and consumer.

Openreach have never really seemed much interested in vectoring and its only on the BDUK cabs. 
When I looked at the amount of work involved in upgrading the Huawei MA5616, its probably easier (quicker) to swap out ECI M41s for a V41 because of the number of parts involved.  Although it's easier to upgrade the Huawei MA5603s they'd still need to swap out more modules than you'd first think.  Much easier to install from new although Openreach don't even seem to have gone down this route on those cabs which now have both an ECI and Huawei.   

Perhaps they were hoping they could software patch the ECI's ?  Who knows :( 
This latest news is a major blow if its one of the larger ISPs' CPEs and could affect their future proposals for ever getting g.inp working on the ECI cabs. :'(

Openreach seems to be putting in all efforts now to rolling out FTTH/FTTP.  Openreach & Lightsource have been very busy in this area despite covid, but there are so many more exchanges to do and I'm sure many more difficult locations.   :/
The numpties disturbing their work hasn't helped either.  :rant:  I can't believe the number of covidiots in this town who think the work being done is to do with 5G.   I had a go at one of them several weeks back telling him to pack his HomeHub back in the box as it was beaming out much higher frequencies around his home 24/7. (5 - 5.8GHz  v  3.4 - 3.6 GHz)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on August 23, 2020, 04:17:12 AM
Yep lets hope its only a small number number of units.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on August 23, 2020, 08:59:20 AM
can't believe we are still talking about this given the last trial I was on was in 2016....

Its a shame Openreach wont allow the ISP's taking part to put forward their end user lines that have suitable modems and stats as you would like to think it would be of use and more than happy to be on the trial. I have  been disappointed with Zen's poor response even though they are I assume still on the trial. They just reply with a stock response offering no option to get in on the trial even though I made contact right at the beginning of it.

This guy's line has had eci g.inp for months and seems just fine... Just hope its not another 4 years till its resolved if ever, probably be on fttp by then...
http://syn.gwise.uk:3949/linestats/ (http://syn.gwise.uk:3949/linestats/)
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on August 23, 2020, 09:27:51 PM
How else would you expect Zen to respond if they aren't being given any option to submit lines?

It was made pretty clear that the initial Plusnet offer was unique due to the close relationship they have to BT and was very much a limited time offer.  No other ISP has that liberty and even Plusnet cannot submit new lines now.

Also the nature of it being trial, they likely wanted a completely random sample.  If all they got were people whose equipment is known to work, it wouldn't have identified that a problem still remains.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: kitz on August 24, 2020, 12:15:09 AM
Quote
It was made pretty clear that the initial Plusnet offer was unique due to the close relationship they have to BT and was very much a limited time offer.

Please don't start false rumours.  Plusnet has no special relationship with Openreach.  Other ISP's could have taken up that offer too if they had submitted before the cut off date.
I've tried to clarify several times on this forum over the past few months what the options were.  Its been mentioned both in this thread and the other.
I don't see how I can make it any clearer what the standard procedure for most Openreach trials is.  Although I didn't see the invitation for this particular trial, I have seen plenty of others to know they all roughly follow a similar format.

This isn't an area based trial, but ISP opt in. 

I am assuming [based on previous Openreach trials] that the ISP originally had 2 methods of opting in:
1) Offering all of their lines to be part of the trial or
2) Offering a limited number of lines.


Method 1.
Openreach randomly selects approx 50% of lines to be actively on the trial whilst the other 50% are used as a baseline comparison.
At the beginning of the trial, Openreach will usually advise the ISP a list of all the lines actively selected and the ISP has a few days to withdraw any particular lines from the list that they don't wish participating in the trial.

Method 2.
This is usually reserved for smaller trials or if the ISP wants to actively monitor the effects of the trial more closely. 
It is usually only staff lines which are submitted using this method.    I suspect this may be the method Bob Pullen used and it will be why he couldn't submit any more lines after the cut off date and why he was interested in the results of those who were put on the trial by asking them to post in the thread.

We did hear from a fairly reputable source that Openreach did at one point suspend any new lines being added to the trial.  However bearing in mind that we've since seen at least one more ISP go on the trial, IMO it's more likely that they are not accepting any more submissions via method 2 - which did have a hard cut-off date anyhow.
In that case it will be true what the respective ISPs are saying in that they do not have any choice which lines get G.INP activated and which don't.

Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: j0hn on August 24, 2020, 12:17:00 AM
How else would you expect Zen to respond if they aren't being given any option to submit lines?

He requested it from Zen during the opt in period.
I think he's right to be disappointed in them.
Any ISP had the ability to submit lines.

Zen didn't seem to know their a*** from their elbow during this time, giving different responses to different users who requested their lines be put on the trial.

Quite a disappointing response from AAISP also who like Zen have lines in the trial now but refused to engage with customers during the only period where individual lines could be put forward.

Seems the budget ISP Plusnet (only thanks to Bob Pullen participating in the forums) was the only ISP to take up the offer.
Part of the reason people pick Zen and AAISP is for the better customer service. They missed the boat on this.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on August 24, 2020, 12:50:15 AM
Please don't start false rumours.  Plusnet has no special relationship with Openreach.  Other ISP's could have taken up that offer too if they had submitted before the cut off date.

I apologise, I clearly misunderstood what Bob Pullen meant.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Chrysalis on August 24, 2020, 04:29:22 AM
yeah the isps who couldnt pick their users were simply too slow to pull the trigger.  It was a very clever approach taken by plusnet to use that system for customers and I praise them for it.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: skyeci on September 27, 2020, 01:57:18 PM
another month goes by....

Been following this person's eci line for months since he was one of the original plus net trial lines. It still has g.inp enabled and has done since March.......... ::)

Stats recorded 27 Sep 2020 13:54:32

DSLAM type / SW version:   IFTN:0xb206 (178.6) / v0xb206
Modem/router firmware:     AnnexA version - A2pv6F039t.d26d
DSL mode:                  VDSL2 Profile 17a
Status:                    Showtime
Uptime:                    17 days 6 hours 32 min 6 sec
Resyncs:                   0 (since 22 Sep 2020 07:38:24)
         
            Downstream   Upstream
Line attenuation (dB):     15.9      0.0
Signal attenuation (dB):   Not available on VDSL2      
Connection speed (kbps):   71733      20000
SNR margin (dB):           4.2             4.1
Power (dBm):               6.4             6.4
Interleave depth:          1             1
INP:                            48.00             0
G.INP:                        Enabled      Not enabled
Vectoring status:           5 (VECT_UNCONFIGURED)      

RSCorr/RS (%):             0.0026      0.3028
RSUnCorr/RS (%):           0.0000      0.0000
ES/hour:                           0              0.14
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: MTW on November 22, 2020, 08:21:54 PM
Does anybody know of any update on this? Things have gone very quiet in the last couple of months.
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: broadstairs on November 22, 2020, 09:37:30 PM
Have no idea but all I can say I still have it on my line. I imagine the trial must have been quite good or those of us who have it would probably have lost it by now - but who knows!

Stuart
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: champnet on November 24, 2020, 10:31:31 PM
I still have it on my line too....
Title: Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on November 25, 2020, 04:42:57 AM
Does anybody know of any update on this? Things have gone very quiet in the last couple of months.

I doubt they want to change anything right now as there are still more people working from home than usual.  No problems here though.