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Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: Bowdon on March 11, 2018, 11:41:26 AM

Title: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: Bowdon on March 11, 2018, 11:41:26 AM
My Dad has been telling me that recently he's started to receive the "How did we do?" message that people usually get when they have used a companies services.

The strange thing is, he's never given his mobile number to these places.

He told me that it happened when he came out of Asda.

Yesterday he told me that he got that message when he drove past a pub on his travels. He doesn't know how they are sending him the message.

The only thing on his phone that is active is 1. Wifi is on and set to connect to our home network, and 2. He has bluetooth on while in the car to use it hands free.

My theory is its something to do with bluetooth. But I'm not sure. I've never heard of this happening to anyone else.

Does anyone have any ideas or theories to what is happening?
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: V_R on March 11, 2018, 12:03:01 PM
Is it actually a text message?

What phone?

Could it be Google Maps thinking he's been in said place?
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 11, 2018, 06:20:20 PM
smartphone tracking commonly uses WiFi and GPS.

If the phone sees (say) Asda’s wifi it can tell other parties that you are near Asda, communicating that information using cellular sata.   Similarly, if GPS location is Asda, it will communicate that fact too. 

If it is an iPhone, go to Settings->privacy->locationServices, and ensure nothing is ticked that does not need to be ticked.  For example, I allow maps and the Network Rail App to see my location, and not much else.  Avoid signing in to anything provided by Google, or at least, make sure you sign out again.

If it is an Android then my personal, biased, slightly tongue in cheek advice, would be to destroy it and buy an iPhone.   I am semi serious as it is how I dealt with my own Android phone after I understood Google’s approach to privacy, but no doubt other more constructive advice will be forthcoming. :)

Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: Bowdon on March 11, 2018, 06:53:47 PM
I think you're right. It seems to be something to do with that location tracking.

He opened the message and it opened up a list of all the locations he'd been in the last 6 months with the name of the place and 5 stars that you can select.

My cousin was visiting for the day and I mentioned it to him and he said he had a similar experience with some of his friends so he unticked the location tracker and he hasnt had any issues since.
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 11, 2018, 07:31:09 PM
Worth mentioning, a pal of mine has been complaining of something not quite the same, but similar.  He gets ‘welcome’ messages and other spam, such as suggestions of where to eat, when he arrives at places shopping centres and the likes.

He’s a pretty competent techie, being a retired software engineer for a major mainframe manufacturer, but he’s not quite figured out how to stop it.   The sledgehammer approach of disabling all location services might work, but he doesn’t want do do that.   His device is an Android.
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: V_R on March 11, 2018, 09:13:41 PM
If it is an Android then my personal, biased, slightly tongue in cheek advice, would be to destroy it and buy an iPhone.   I am semi serious as it is how I dealt with my own Android phone after I understood Google’s approach to privacy, but no doubt other more constructive advice will be forthcoming. :)
Fanboy much? Because Apple are so much better right?  ::)

Least I know my Pixel 2 XL won't start getting slower with each software update. ;)


Quote
Worth mentioning, a pal of mine has been complaining of something not quite the same, but similar.  He gets ‘welcome’ messages and other spam, such as suggestions of where to eat, when he arrives at places shopping centres and the likes.

He’s a pretty competent techie, being a retired software engineer for a major mainframe manufacturer, but he’s not quite figured out how to stop it.   The sledgehammer approach of disabling all location services might work, but he doesn’t want do do that.   His device is an Android.

As I said in the first post, could well be GMaps, and if it is you can just go in to the setting and turn off the notifications you don't want.
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 11, 2018, 09:28:26 PM
As I said in the first post, could well be GMaps, and if it is you can just go in to the setting and turn off the notifications you don't want.

Not entirely convinced.  On my iPhone, both Apple maps and Google maps (which is better) have location access.   Yet I get no such annoyances.

Difference is, being an iPhone, I am not signed in to Google... they know where my phone is, based on the Google cookie that identifies device, but they don’t know who I am, or how to spam me.   If it were an Android phone, I would almost cetainly be signed in, and Google would know exactly who I was, and how to spam me.
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: Bowdon on March 11, 2018, 11:11:02 PM
It is the same for me. I carry my phone (android) and don't get the notifications.

When I was searching online someone mentioned about the google maps option. They say it worked for them. But yea, it doesn't explain why my phone doesn't get those notifications and my dads does.

The only difference between our phones is he has bluetooth turned on all the time because he uses it in the car for hands free.

When I was looking around the net earlier there was a shop owner asking how he could setup bluetooth to send a message to anyone passing his store. According to him a shop up the road had it setup. I've heard its called bluejacking or something like that. That topic went on to talk about the legal issues surrounding that. Apparently it comes down to the content of the message if its allowed or not.
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 12, 2018, 12:01:49 AM
So far as I understand, Bluejacking lies somewhere between hacking and prank.  Also not sure whether it depends on weak security by the phone owner?

But Asda being what Asda are, whilst not exactly Waitrose, I’d be surprised if they would stoop so low as to use such a dodgy exploit in commercial practice.   ???
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: Ronski on March 12, 2018, 06:36:55 AM
He opened the message and it opened up a list of all the locations he'd been in the last 6 months with the name of the place and 5 stars that you can select.

It's Google maps, nothing sinister. Do you or 7LM ever use Google reviews, find the information that Google states about a place useful, I know I do. How to you think it gets there? The majority is from users like me who actually take the time to leave a review, update opening times, add website details, move the location marker to the correct location etc. If I don't have time I simply ignore the request or clear it. I'm pretty sure if you look there is an option to stop it asking you if you or your father doesn't wish to contribute.

If it is an Android then my personal, biased, slightly tongue in cheek advice, would be to destroy it and buy an iPhone.   I am semi serious as it is how I dealt with my own Android phone after I understood Google’s approach to privacy, but no doubt other more constructive advice will be forthcoming. :)

Rant.

No surprise there really, rather wasteful if you did destroy it. You support the greediest company I know of, and probably least open, one of their biggest successes is how they driven the price of decent mobiles through the roof! Look how it slowed peoples phones down, a good idea but it should have said so, so what else does it not tell users? At least with Android people can pick the code apart, release their own ROMS, so if anything really sinister was going on we'd probably know about it. I'm Android all the way, I wouldn't buy anything that came from the evil empire that is Apple, what do you think will happen if they were the only phone maker?

End rant.
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: V_R on March 12, 2018, 07:56:53 AM
@Bowden, Its not blue jacking. I have Bluetooth on all the time using it with my car and an Android wear watch. For a start you need to confirm on both sides of the connection to connect and send and receive data.

As I've said several times now, its GMaps. Open the app hit the hamburger menu on the top left or swipe the menu out from the left, go to settings > Notifications. Turn everything off. He'll never see anything again.


@Ronski, Nicely put, another local guide I see. :)


Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: broadstairs on March 12, 2018, 08:06:37 AM
I must admit I have never had any of this type of message. I do use Bluetooth but only enable it when using the car for hands free use if really needed (my car phones automatically if I have an accident). I have an Android phone and always have had. Not a fan of Apple either. My Google maps is disabled (cant remove it as my phone is not rooted). I use OSM Maps if I need an online map (which is rare  ;) ). I never leave wi-fi enabled even at home, I always enabled it only when I need to use it. Also I try to avoid using any Google related app if at all possible.

Stuart
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 12, 2018, 08:46:31 AM
Look how it slowed peoples phones down, a good idea but it should have said so, so what else does it not tell users?

I tried to make humour of the Apple vs Android aspect, but this latest Apple bashing really does need to be laid to rest.

In fact, Apple merely arranged for the devices to adapt as the batteries degraded, allowing older devices to carry on working, albeit with slightly reduced performance.  Yet somehow, the Apple Haters managed to turn it into a shock-horror headline, and the mainstream media were suckered into reporting it.

Apple are pretty unique in this day and age, in encouraging several years’ device usage.   My own personal iPhone is a 5c, dating from 2014, you still see plenty of them about.  Sadly, it only runs iOS 10 owing to 32 bit hardware limitations, but our 64 bit iPad Mini retina from 2013 is still absolutely as good as new, and fully supported with latest iOS 11.  We’ve noticed no degradation at all during that period, despite the fact it is now running a much later iOS version than when it was born.   The only disappointment was the iPad 2, which never coped well post iOS 8, though that seems to just have been a ‘bloat’ problem,  it has never been suggested that Apple deliberately slugged it.  Even though a bit laggy, my own iPad 2 still remained in daily use as my ‘go to’ web device, six years after it was launched.

By all means let’s exchange humourous banter over Apple vs Android, but keep it friendly?  That  was my only real intent, whilst drawing attention to the undeniable fact that Google and Apple have different approaches to snooping and privacy. :)
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: V_R on March 12, 2018, 09:13:52 AM
Irony. Your first post in this thread was 'Android bashing'.  ???
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 12, 2018, 09:21:29 AM
As I've said several times now, its GMaps. Open the app hit the hamburger menu on the top left or swipe the menu out from the left, go to settings > Notifications. Turn everything off. He'll never see anything again

That does sound credible.

Then again, I use Google Maps all the time on my iPhone, because it is better by far than Apple Maps.   i have never seen any nuisance messages or notifications.   On the Notifications settings, only option is “background navigation instructions”.   It is disabled, though I’d be surprised if enabling it gave rise to this problem?

Another difference, that I still consider to be a biggie, is that being an iOS device, I do not have to, and never do, actually sign into Google.  So it would be harder for them to identify me, and send me personalised location-based advertising.   It might be interesting to try using the Android device whilst not signed in, but istr that with Android it was hard, if not impossible, to avoid signing into Google?

Of course, iOS  also provides strong incentives to sign in (to Apple), mine is always signed in to Apple, but I have never been pestered in that way.
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: V_R on March 12, 2018, 09:26:42 AM
That does sound credible.

Then again, I use Google Maps all the time on my iPhone, because it is better by far than Apple Maps.   i have never seen any nuisance messages or notifications.   On the Notifications settings, only option is “background navigation instructions”.   It is disabled, though I’d be surprised if enabling it gave rise to this problem?

I haven't use Gmaps on iOS, so can't be sure but maybe the settings for it are different within the iOS environment? I know Apple are very strict with apps and on what they can and can't do. iOS has only just got a decent Reddit app hasn't it.


Quote
Another difference, that I still consider to be a biggie, is that being an iOS device, I do not have to, and never do, actually sign into Google.  So it would be harder for them to identify me, and send me personalised location-based advertising.   It might be interesting to try using the Android device whilst not signed in, but istr that with Android it was hard, if not impossible, to avoid signing into Google?

Of course, iOS  also provides strong incentives to sign in (to Apple), mine is always signed in to Apple, but I have never been pestered in that way.

No, you get to use iCloud instead. That's far safer, right... right? ;)
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 12, 2018, 09:34:33 AM
I haven't use Gmaps on iOS, so can't be sure but maybe the settings for it are different within the iOS environment?

Indeed, you can enable/disable notifications in Settings, on a per App basis.   Google Maps on mine  has notifications disabled.  Just one boolean, no more detail, happy to volunteer to turn it on, and see what happens.    :)
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 12, 2018, 09:49:28 AM
OK, throwing  caution to the wind, I have enabled Gmaps notifications both in the App and in settings.   I have also fully enabled location access - previously it was set to “allow while using the App”, now it is set to “always”.

I will report back if anything happens.  But don’t hold your breath as I guess it may not happen until next time I go somewhere interesting, which doesn’t happen often these days. :D
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: Ronski on March 12, 2018, 10:12:39 AM
Yes I'm a local guide and proud to contribute where I can.

7LM Just remember who started the Android/Google bashing in this thread, it's always going to be a subject likely to create heated debate  ;) If you don't have a Google account you probably won't get any notifications, but will be interesting to hear if you do.
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 12, 2018, 10:47:11 AM
Yes I'm a local guide and proud to contribute where I can.

7LM Just remember who started the Android/Google bashing in this thread, it's always going to be a subject likely to create heated debate  ;) If you don't have a Google account you probably won't get any notifications, but will be interesting to hear if you do.

I do have a Google account indirectly, as my email is hosted by Google Apps, or whatever it is called these days.   But whilst that means the native iOS mail App is signed in to Google, and it can sync my contacts with Google, I don’t think Google Maps App can legitimately inherit that sign in, whereas I think maybe it can on Android?

Talking of Google accounts, by logging into Google at a browser and navigating the account settings, there is a whole proliferation of other privacy-related buttons.  I have always endeavoured to lock down as tight as possible and deny them as much access as possible, but can’t recall... could any of these settings affect this behaviour?

In fairness, yes of course, Apple’s iCloud knows just as much about me and my movements as Google would like to know.   But I have never seen any evidence of that being used for commercial spamming.
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: V_R on March 12, 2018, 10:59:26 AM
Quote
OK, throwing  caution to the wind, I have enabled Gmaps notifications both in the App and in settings.   I have also fully enabled location access - previously it was set to “allow while using the App”, now it is set to “always”.

Living life on the edge eh!?  :D


@Ronski, Indeed, its people like us who update, add, move places etc which make Gmaps as good as it is now, and why its so much better than the competition.


Quote
In fairness, yes of course, Apple’s iCloud knows just as much about me and my movements as Google would like to know.   But I have never seen any evidence of that being used for commercial spamming.
No, you just get your nudes posted online instead.  :D
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: tickmike on March 12, 2018, 11:51:37 AM
Does your dad have Free Sky  WiFi or the cloud WiFi on his phone. ?

We went to Leeds last year and in a shopping center I sat down while my family went shopping.
I wanted to know what time trains were back to Harrogate, so my iphone is set up to use above Free WiFi,  There was a coffee bar in front of me and I think I used there free WiFi.
In a couple of days we got back home and when my phone connected to my home WiFi I got a message asking how (the name of this coffee bar) had done when we visited two days ago. :-\   :o

Had the same happen when just walking by a Free WiFi hot spot.
When my phone connects they collect the phones WiFi connection email address.
Just mark them as 'Junk'.
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 12, 2018, 12:16:16 PM
Certainly, as a rule, I avoid connecting to WiFi when travelling.   My needs are modest, and mobile data is cheap enough.

Even without connecting, they (Google, Apple) can still figure out that you were nearby, but the cafe or restaurant won’t generally know, unless Google or Apple tell them.  But if you actually connect, and supply an email during registration, you are handing it to them on a plate.

As a slight aside, 3rd party App publishers themselves can also get up to unpleasant skullduggery, as well as Apple and Google.   A while ago, as far as I understand, Uber wanted to get a version of their App into the iOS App Store.  But it broke certain privacy rules, meaning Apple would probably reject it.   The solution?   The Uber App monitored location and if it found itself at Cupertino, Apple HQ where iOS Apps validation is performed, it simply disabled the naughty bits.   Apple were reportedly not too pleased when they found out about it.    :D

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/04/24/tim-cook-threatened-kick-uber-app-store-iphone-tracking/
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: Bowdon on March 12, 2018, 01:05:44 PM
My Dad and me live in the same place. I also have an android phone too, the Samsung S4.

As far as wifi his phone is setup like mine, so it will auto connect when our home network comes in to range.

I haven't touched any settings with Gmaps and he doesn't use those apps. He just uses the basic phone side and sms'ing his friends.

The only main difference is the bluetooth. Unless of course he has touched something by mistake in the settings.

His phone as actually ran out of memory and there isnt room for the apps to install on there (the version of OS he's using doesn't let him use his memory card for apps). So he'll be getting a new phone soon.

We're visiting the hospital today. I don't know if they send out messages. But it'll be interesting to see lol


In the Android/iPhone debate. I like android but I don't like how they leave it up to phone manufacturers to push out the OS updates. I haven't had an OS update in years. My girlfriend had andriod too (shes the one who convinced me to update my "dumb" phone).. but now shes got an iPhone and loves how everything is more streamlined.

I guess it comes down to weighing up do you want to be locked down to a brand or not. There is both good and bad reasons to weigh.
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: V_R on March 12, 2018, 01:22:22 PM
If Gmaps is installed the notifications are on by default.

Next time you see the notif can you long press on it and see if it tells you what app is pushing it?

As for updates, I agree, the fragmentation from manufacturers is quite bad.
Samsung are unfortunately one of the worst offenders for slow updates. That said your phone is 5 years old now, and frankly end of life.

Apple have the advantage here as its such a closed environment, only they make the devices which means they only have to cater for around 10 different versions of iPhones at any one time, and only they use iOS, and they decide if the apps are good enough to be in the app store. Android is much more open and has devices for every manufacture out there from LG, Samsung, Oneplus and everyone in between - literally hundreds of different devices running different specs of different ages running different versions of Android. :)


You still haven't told us what his device is.
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 12, 2018, 01:49:15 PM
Worth confessing the one drawback of iOS updates policy;   Once you have updated there is no going back, they won’t allow you to revert to an older version.  And Apple being in absolute control, you can’t get around that.  If you find something doesn’t work with the new version, or you just don’t like it, then it’s tough luck.   

For that reason, I generally wait a few weeks before updating to a major new version, keeping an ear and an eye open for any complaints...
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: Bowdon on March 12, 2018, 02:14:09 PM
You still haven't told us what his device is.

It is a Vodafone Smart 4 Mini.

It was a cheap phone to see if he could cope with a smartphone. Got it 3 years ago.
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: displaced on April 19, 2018, 01:04:10 PM
Worth confessing the one drawback of iOS updates policy;   Once you have updated there is no going back, they won’t allow you to revert to an older version.

If it helps, that's not quite true.  It's just a bit more involved.

Firstly, you need to have a backup of your phone from before the update is applied.  Assuming you have iCloud Backups enabled, you'll have one less than 24 hours old already.

After the update, should you wish to downgrade, all you need is a copy of the earlier version's OS image - the .ipsw file.  These can be downloaded directly from Apple's update servers -- check out https://ipsw.me

Then, connect your phone to your PC or Mac and start iTunes (downgrades cannot be done over-the-air).  Go to the phone summary page and look for the Check for Update button.

Now, hold Option (or Alt on Windows) whilst clicking that button.  You'll be shown a file selector.  Choose the .ipsw you downloaded and your phone will downgrade.

You can then follow the initial setup process and choose the iCloud backup to restore from at the appropriate point.  The UI clearly indicates which backups were made with each iOS version, and it won't allow you to restore a backup from an iOS version other than the one you've restored to.

A couple of notes:



Cheers,
Chris
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 19, 2018, 07:45:07 PM
they withdraw signing for old versions of iOS (more than ~1 year old, if I remember correctly).

I think you’ll find that Apple usually stop signing old iOS just a few weeks after a new iOS release, rather than a year.  Hence why I generalised that they won’t let you revert to earlier versions - but you are right, if you act quickly, within a week or two, Apple may still sign the old version.   

Happy to be proven wrong and that the ‘overlap’ it is a year.   In fact I’d be positively delighted, but I do believe a week or two is the norm.   :)
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: displaced on April 20, 2018, 11:08:48 AM
Hmm...  It does seem a bit more complex.

From https://api.ineal.me/tss/status, which lists the signing status of each version for each device, it appears that the current and current-1 versions are signed.

Now, whether it's a rule that current and current-1 are always signed is unknown. 

The current version was released 29/03 and current-1 was released on 20/02.  Both are still signed.  So, it's currently possible to revert to a version released ~8 weeks ago, even if you've used the current version for ~4 weeks and decided you're unhappy with it.

It'll be interesting to see if current-1 gets unsigned in the coming days/weeks. I think the last time I did this sort of downgrade was back when we went from iOS 6 to 7, so either they've changed the duration or my memory is faulty (much more likely the latter!)

Either way, if an iOS update breaks something, you can revert to the previous version for a decent number of weeks.  In the meantime, you can spam Apple with tickets :D
Title: Re: How did we do? - message on mobile
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on April 20, 2018, 11:49:32 AM
I suspect the reason they are still signing 11.2.6 is 11.3 is quite new, I would expect them to stop signing 11.2.6 quite soon.   But one thing seems sure is, the ‘rules’ (if they exist) are not made public. :)

I remember hearing a rumour, in early days of iOS, that for iPod Touch alone, they were more generous with in signing old versions.  Can’t find any evidence for that, maybe I imagined it?

I’m an iOS developer in my spare time, so all of this is a sore point with me (and with many devs).  I like my Apps to support previous versions as well as current.  Some stuff I was doing this morning goes all the way back to iOS 9, as that was last version supported by iPad 2s, and people are still using iPad 2.   So for testing and debugging on devices, I really want to be able to pick and choose any combination of device and valid iOS version, even if years old.  But I cannot do so, I have to depend upon the sdk simulators.