Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => Broadband Technology => Topic started by: Bowdon on February 18, 2018, 04:10:27 PM

Title: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: Bowdon on February 18, 2018, 04:10:27 PM
**Rant and Investigation**

I've been making a nuisance of myself in other places. But it gets crowded over there and instead of leaping on other peoples threads I thought I might open a thread here about it.

Having been reading the threads in another place by people getting FTTPoD products installed it seems I mistakenly thought they were residential customers who were paying some extra money to have it installed.

Two ISP's were mentioned offering FTTPoD products, Cerberus and FluidOne.

Someone had mentioned that to make an order the exchange had to be FTTP. This seems not to be the case, but I'd gone and looked at my local exchange and find its the only exchange of the 6 or 7 exchanges around here that doesn't have FTTP or FOD listed. So this annoyed me.

Someone else said they had pestered one of the ISP's and said that ISP got Openreach to open up FOD in the area. So I made a post about trying to buy, or at least get a quote for FOD. This is when I run in to the problem that it appears that the 2 ISP's, as of now, are only selling to business customers.

The interesting part is that some of the new price quotes for FOD arent that massive and I would see it as an investment. People buy big OLED TV's and high powered PC's that could easily come to a combine total of around what FOD on average seems to come to. So for a lot of people FOD is within their price range.

So I have been reading up on the information about FOD. I noticed that there is due to be price changes coming at the end of the month.

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefings/ultrafastfibreaccessbriefings/ultrafastfibreaccessbriefingarticles/nga200717.do (https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefings/ultrafastfibreaccessbriefings/ultrafastfibreaccessbriefingarticles/nga200717.do)

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/10/openreach-unveil-new-uk-pricing-fttp-demand-ultrafast-broadband.html (https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/10/openreach-unveil-new-uk-pricing-fttp-demand-ultrafast-broadband.html)

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/7858-new-openreach-fibre-on-demand-pricing-may-make-service-more-attractive (https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/7858-new-openreach-fibre-on-demand-pricing-may-make-service-more-attractive)

It is obvious that the Openreach pricing is an attempt to get more people to order FOD. Yet as of now the ISP's that sell FOD are only selling to Business customers.

I hope when the 2 companies named update their pricing they will consider finding a way to offer it to residential customers too. Apart from my own frustrations, they are missing out on a lot of money.

I'm still going to be digging around and keeping my eye out on the situation.

P.S. One of the strange things is there is a rumour BT Business is soon introducing FTTPod under the label "Infinity Build to Order". I wonder what effect this will have on Cerberus and FluidOne as the market will get smaller. I suspect if BT Business start selling it that they will be the first port of call.
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: j0hn on February 18, 2018, 04:28:10 PM
The overall cost is expected to be about the same between the 2 pricing structures.
In other words the build cost will increase significantly to compensate the new 1 year term.

FluidOne only sell to business's. They don't sell to residential customers.

Although the old pricing had a 3 year term, Cerberus don't check Companies House like FluidOne. You could simply be self employed to order FTTPod.
That won't be necessary now that it's a1 year contract.
If FTTPod shows available to you you can order from Cerberus after February 23rd* as a residential customer.

You wouldn't find me paying near on 10k to give my neighbours free FTTP. I'll wait and hope they order it.

* Although OpenReach pricing was released on 1stFeb, BTWholesale don't release their pricing till 23rd Feb.
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: niemand on February 18, 2018, 06:40:55 PM
The pricing isn't an attempt to make more people order the product. People don't order from Openreach.

The changes are to encourage CPs to place orders to migrate a number of customers simultaneously to FTTP. Zero incentive for an individual end user, total cost of ownership pretty much the same.
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: Bowdon on February 18, 2018, 07:11:19 PM
Thanks for the replies guys :)

I agree paying 10K upfront to give others access is a bit of a kicker. I'm planning to wait for a while to see if FTTP comes to this area at some point before I attempt anything.

I take your point Ignitionnet. I think OR are trying to encourage the companies like Cerberus and FluidOne to sign up more people.

It seems to me that if those 2 ISP's start putting the word out, even sending out mailshots to areas it might be interesting how much interest they get back from that, and they could sign up a community package or something.

I'm thinking the BT Business releasing their business product will squeeze out Cerberus / FluidOne and maybe that is why they are doing it. We all know those 2 companies but joe public is likely to go with the BT brand, especially if they are already BT business customers. I guess we'll have to watch what happens and which direction things go.
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: j0hn on February 19, 2018, 01:13:48 AM
There's a 3rd ISP selling FTTPod now.
Syscomm
http://www.syscomm.co.uk

Full list of ISP's selling it can be found below.

https://www.homeandbusiness.openreach.co.uk/fibre-broadband/ultrafast-broadband/ultrafast-fibre-buy-it-now
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: Ixel on February 19, 2018, 08:51:26 AM
There's a 3rd ISP selling FTTPod now.
Syscomm
http://www.syscomm.co.uk

Full list of ISP's selling it can be found below.

https://www.homeandbusiness.openreach.co.uk/fibre-broadband/ultrafast-broadband/ultrafast-fibre-buy-it-now

The ICUK website (the reseller variant of CIX) is also going to be selling FTTPoD and G.fast soon, it mentions it on their product pages (under technologies if I recall).
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: richi on February 19, 2018, 10:17:15 AM
Cerberus don't check Companies House like FluidOne. You could simply be self employed to order FTTPod.
This may have changed recently. I filled in FluidOne's enquiry form last week -- it implies self-employed businesses are accepted.
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: Bowdon on February 19, 2018, 11:32:54 AM
I hope more ISP's get on the FTTPoD train because if done correctly this could actually aid FTTP rollout by being able to see demand for 'Ultrafast fibre'.
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: richi on February 19, 2018, 11:49:18 AM
I agree paying 10K upfront to give others access is a bit of a kicker.
As I understood it, the new pricing is supposed to adjust for the number of properties passed by the fibre. I think the reporting that the change should be cost-neutral misses this point (or perhaps only allows for an average number of properties passed).

I gather that, were I to install FTTPoD, the fibre would pass about 20 homes and businesses. I have enquiries in with Cerberus and FluidOne. I'll report back with what I find.
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: Ronski on February 19, 2018, 04:34:30 PM
Properties passed seems to be a point of confusion, perhaps properties passed that are connectable would make more sense,  it could pass a 100 properties but if the only distribution point is outside 5 houses then only 5 properties would be connectable.

To me it would make sense to install distribution points all along the route it takes where there are properties/branches that could later be utilised.
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: Dwight on February 19, 2018, 10:21:48 PM
I had a quote from Amvia last month, and I am around 0.1 mile from the CABs. the thing that stung me was the £225/month!
Once the new prices have been around for a few months I will be asking Gigaclear and others their best offers.
FTTP o Demand Pricing
Download: 330Mb
Upload: 30Mb
Monthly Rental: £225.00/month
Installation: £2,950 subject to site survey
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: richi on February 20, 2018, 01:05:25 PM
Properties passed seems to be a point of confusion, perhaps properties passed that are connectable would make more sense,  it could pass a 100 properties but if the only distribution point is outside 5 houses then only 5 properties would be connectable.
Interesting; thanks. Hard to say how many DPs the route would pass. We'll see what the quotes look like!
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: richi on March 08, 2018, 08:36:20 AM
Riiiight. Well the quote came back from Cerberus: £39,000+VAT :lol:

Comparing notes with others on TBB, it looks like £39K is a maximum cap. I could buy a hell of a lot of bonded 4G and ADSL2+ for that money!

OR reckons only two other premises passed, which can't be right: At least five are served from the DPpole.
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: GaryW on March 08, 2018, 10:28:08 AM
Riiiight. Well the quote came back from Cerberus: £39,000+VAT :lol:

Comparing notes with others on TBB, it looks like £39K is a maximum cap. I could buy a hell of a lot of bonded 4G and ADSL2+ for that money!

OR reckons only two other premises passed, which can't be right: At least five are served from the DPpole.

To be honest that doesn't surprise me.

Our local land owner is converting some of their buildings into commercial/residential units, and laying on FTTP as part of that.  They've offered to allow OpenReach to lay additional fibre over their land to a cluster of properties (including mine) - land owner will dig trenches, OR will lay fibre.  Starting point will in the region of a mile from my house (which is at the far end of the cluster) and there are probably 25 houses in the cluster (although I don't know how many of those expressed an interest in being part of the "community application").  The last update I had is that the cost will be "less than £1,500 per property" (with a £350 discount for anyone getting less than 2 Mb/s at the moment!).  So if we assume that all the properties have signed up, that's possibly around £35,000.
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: Bowdon on March 08, 2018, 11:55:51 AM
Riiiight. Well the quote came back from Cerberus: £39,000+VAT :lol:

Comparing notes with others on TBB, it looks like £39K is a maximum cap. I could buy a hell of a lot of bonded 4G and ADSL2+ for that money!

OR reckons only two other premises passed, which can't be right: At least five are served from the DPpole.

I'm assuming you approached them as a potential residential customer?

I think unless it is stated somewhere that there is a cap then there looks to be something suspicious about these fixed high quotes, and I'm not the only one to think that. Two of the knowledgable BT bods in the other place thought that too.

At this stage I'm not making any conclusion I'm wanting to see this capped £39000 somewhere.

Do these quotes cost anything to get? I hope they are free.
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: richi on March 08, 2018, 12:00:51 PM
I'm a small business (albeit not VAT-registered, because most of my revenue is services delivered outside the EEA).
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: Bowdon on March 08, 2018, 04:00:15 PM
I'm a small business (albeit not VAT-registered, because most of my revenue is services delivered outside the EEA).

I am wondering if in Cerberus's eyes you'd be considered residential.

It seems unless this £39000 number is some kind of maximum order payment number by Openreach then it appears like its a made up high number to discourage residential orders.

I'll still keep digging. It might come out that the £39000 figure is a max order price and it all might be genuine  :-\
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: Dwight on March 08, 2018, 09:38:41 PM
Bowden
That seems really high £39k, so I just asked for a quote myself. We will see how we compare!  ;) When did you get your quote before or after the end of Feb reprice?
Dave
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: j0hn on March 09, 2018, 12:04:31 AM
Those are quotes from OpenReach, Cerberus just pass them on to the customer.
Cerberus sell to residential customers, so i don't see why they would inflate the quotes to put them off.
A couple of the 39k quotes were business's anyway.

OpenReach have massively increased the build cost for those at longer distances from the Agg Node. It appears the cost over 3 years is much more than the old pricing.
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: phi2008 on March 09, 2018, 02:03:28 PM
Riiiight. Well the quote came back from Cerberus: £39,000+VAT :lol:

Comparing notes with others on TBB, it looks like £39K is a maximum cap. I could buy a hell of a lot of bonded 4G and ADSL2+ for that money!

OR reckons only two other premises passed, which can't be right: At least five are served from the DPpole.

I was looking at the quotes on the Thinkbroadband thread, initially we thought Openreach was going to attempt to increase FTTPoD rollout - instead they've moved from expensive but possible, to extortionate and impossible.  :no:
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: j0hn on March 09, 2018, 02:38:57 PM
Some of the quotes are reasonable, and similar over 3 years to the old pricing. There are a number of quotes that are a fraction the cost of the highest. It does appear most are higher priced now than before.

For those with the £39k quotes none of them have provided any additional details. We don't know their feed type (aerial, ducted, direct buried), location (rural/urban), and the biggie, distance.

£39k isn't all that much if they are miles from the Aggregation Node.
Knowing their band under the old pricing or an estimated distance to local FTTC cabs could perhaps explain why those half a dozen quotes are so high. They may all be have been band I (3km+), J (5km+) or K (8km+).
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: adslmax on March 11, 2018, 07:36:32 PM
£39K for FTTPoD - forget it! There is no way anyone can afford this! I think this quote is just capped at the maximum £39k for FTTPoD installation inbuilt charge. Maybe Cerberus want to put off all residential customers.
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: j0hn on March 11, 2018, 07:52:48 PM
It's not Cerberus, it's OpenReach who provides the quote.
It's just a desktop survey, likely widely inaccurate.
You need to pay for a full survey to get an accurate quote.
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: adslmax on March 11, 2018, 07:54:56 PM
And the survey is non refundable if not go ahead. I think around £250 something like that
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: Bowdon on March 11, 2018, 11:16:01 PM
If one of the £39,000 quotee's went on to pay for a real quote then it would be interesting to see how much difference the quotes have.

FTTPoD was a good potential way to 1. gauge support for full fibre, and 2. knowing the customer would be sharing the build costs.

Most of these FTTP companies seem to be in a don't blink first contest at the moment.
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: Dwight on March 12, 2018, 09:41:52 PM

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/03/expensive-reality-uk-fttp-demand-broadband-hits-home.html
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/4586020-fttpod-unreal-pricing.html?fpart=all&vc=1

Well it looks like FOD is for the rich and FTTC/G.fast for the poor. So start buying those lottery ticket and you too could have a 300 service from BT.  :no: :'(
Will be interesting to see how much the quote I get will be!
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: Bowdon on March 14, 2018, 02:57:26 PM
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/03/fttp-demand-order-capacity-still-constrained-uk-isps.html (https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/03/fttp-demand-order-capacity-still-constrained-uk-isps.html)

It seems even if you're rich you still have to fight to get in the first 20 order requests per month (competing against all of the UK) to be able to order it.
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: Dwight on March 14, 2018, 10:12:19 PM
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/03/fttp-demand-order-capacity-still-constrained-uk-isps.html (https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/03/fttp-demand-order-capacity-still-constrained-uk-isps.html)

It seems even if you're rich you still have to fight to get in the first 20 order requests per month (competing against all of the UK) to be able to order it.

Yeah, this really does show OR are struggling to build FF system. My new quote came in at £10k from Cerberus. So quiet cheep! lol.
Title: Re: When will FTTPoD be available to residents.
Post by: Ixel on March 14, 2018, 10:48:57 PM
I'm wondering if I should see what rough quote I get as I'm about 200 meters or so from an area which is showing as FTTP (no, not FTTP on Demand). Just not sure if it's worth enquiring, and secondly even if I did get a rather good quote (which I doubt) and went ahead after the actual survey too I also have to consider I'm on a busy road and I would hate to be responsible for potentially disrupting traffic temporarily.