Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Telephony Wiring + Equipment => Topic started by: bogof on January 28, 2018, 07:31:41 PM
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We're converting our garage to a cinema room. This is going to mean a "room within a room", completely sealed and soundproofed.
Unfortunately this plate is in part of the area that will be covered up with new wall (see attachment). This is clearly where the wiring from the street comes up into the house (a terrace in a courtyard). The grey wire then goes to the NTE plate.
The neighbours garage also has access to this area at the moment (their plate is visible from my side, and there is a fair bit of slack. I guess at the moment if they're on talking terms we could get into it from their side. If not and a fault were to develop here I guess we'll be into cutting bits of wall out to get to this.
Any ideas? Is this mine to meddle with (nothing on it says it isn't)... Really appreciate any advice.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Welcome to the Kitz forum. :)
Looking closely at those three images, the incoming service feed appears to be black multi-pair cable . . . if I've counted correctly, it is five pair. The grey cable is also multi-pair (not possible to count). The there is also a white cable, which looks to be a more recent addition.
Does the incoming black multi-pair cable also carry your neighbour's circuit? Or is it solely your own?
The simplest solution may be to have a removable hatch created within the "inner room". One that can be unlatched, lifted out, the sound insulation panel removed and then the existing steel hatch/plate becomes accessible.
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Welcome to the Kitz forum. :)
Looking closely at those three images, the incoming service feed appears to be black multi-pair cable . . . if I've counted correctly, it is five pair. The grey cable is also multi-pair (not possible to count). The there is also a white cable, which looks to be a more recent addition.
Does the incoming black multi-pair cable also carry your neighbour's circuit? Or is it solely your own?
The simplest solution may be to have a removable hatch created within the "inner room". One that can be unlatched, lifted out, the sound insulation panel removed and then the existing steel hatch/plate becomes accessible.
Thanks :)
On close inspection it appears the single black cable probably serves both our houses.
The grey cable that can be seen exiting on our side of the cover is what I believe comes across the garage ceiling and into our hall to serve our NTE.
There are actually two cables connected to another pair on the plate. One white and one grey multicore. They both disappear in the direction of my neighbours property I believe.
I found the cover for the BT terminal block in the cavity.
I guess my concern is twofold:
1) having seen the state of the terminal block, none of it looks in great shape (I guess having had the cover off for probably 20 years doesn't help). So it all may really want re-terminating anyway. Which I guess I'm not "allowed" near?
2) I can't really see a good way to make the hatch which might be required. This cover is probably somewhere around the floor level. Which makes me think 1) really ought to get sorted if access may be difficult in future.
Is there anything that can be done to get the wiring cleaned up?
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On close inspection it appears the single black cable probably serves both our houses.
The grey cable that can be seen exiting on our side of the cover is what I believe comes across the garage ceiling and into our hall to serve our NTE.
There are actually two cables connected to another pair on the plate. One white and one grey multicore. They both disappear in the direction of my neighbours property I believe.
Hmm . . . That's what I suspected but was hoping would not be the case!
Is there anything that can be done to get the wiring cleaned up?
If I was in your situation and got on well with my neighbour I would check exactly which pair, in which cable, fed each property. Then, having identified exactly what's what, I would tidy it all up by re-making each joint (using gel-crimps). Finally I would document which pair, which cable, which property and leave that note behind the cover-plate in the cavity.
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Thanks for the reply.
My understanding of old is that this wiring as it is behind the NTE isn't even mine to touch (Not that this would bother me particularly ::) ...!). I'm an electronics engineer by day.
I guess what I'd quite like would be for the connections to be better made at least on my side (not so bothered about the neighbours...!). In an ideal work I'd have another pair from the street also connected back to the NTE so that in the event of a fault it might be possible to switch pairs without having to delve into this plate.
I've booked an engineer appointment on Weds. Are they likely to be able to connect through another pair in case?
Would they be prepared to bypass the connection terminal block in favour of jelly crimping it for a connection more likely to last through the ages? The terminals look horrible and corroded.
The connections are fine at the moment (85 down / 24 up or therabouts), just would like it to stay that way (hopefully I won't find out I'd have been better off leaving it...)
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I've booked an engineer appointment on Weds. Are they likely to be able to connect through another pair in case?
I'm somewhat uncertain as for the purpose of the appointment. I would not expect an ISP/CP to agree to book a speculative appointment . . . unless you have agreed to pay the charges.
A new pair provide will use a spare pair within the incoming service feed (assuming the spares are not defective) and not involve a new run from the DP . . . unless you have agreed to pay the cost of materials used.
Would they be prepared to bypass the connection terminal block in favour of jelly crimping it for a connection more likely to last through the ages? The terminals look horrible and corroded.
Any competent technician, whilst working on those circuits, would most likely be mindful of removing that BT in favour of using gel-crimps.
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Did you book a 'change point of entry' type service appointment from BT?
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Did you book a 'change point of entry' type service appointment from BT?
I'm somewhat uncertain as for the purpose of the appointment. I would not expect an ISP/CP to agree to book a speculative appointment . . . unless you have agreed to pay the charges.
A new pair provide will use a spare pair within the incoming service feed (assuming the spares are not defective) and not involve a new run from the DP . . . unless you have agreed to pay the cost of materials used.
Any competent technician, whilst working on those circuits, would most likely be mindful of removing that BT in favour of using gel-crimps.
I can still cancel the appointment.
I contacted BT via their online chat and told them that we were doing building works and that the wires looked to be problematic and I wanted them to look at them before carrying on.
They said they could send someone out to look at improving it but that it may be chargeable in line with http://bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/12439/~/engineer-charges , that they would tell me if it would be chargeable to do the work once they'd looked at it.
Is there another route I should go down with BT (change point of entry?) perhaps?
My logic with the other pairs idea is that if there are spare undamaged pairs in the service cable that it would be worth connecting a pair of these to the existing wire which comes across to the NTE. This would give me a "backup pair" should the pair that is in use currently develop a fault, without having to access the panel.
All the ways I can think of of maintaining access via hatches, shorter walls, etc have large implications for the works.
In the scheme of things, £130 to significantly reduce the likelihood of having these connections fail would be worth it. The whole job is going to be one massive wallet haemorrhage as it is...
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Surely what you are suggesting by connecting a spare pair inside the hatch into your live connection will create a massive bridge tap?
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Surely what you are suggesting by connecting a spare pair inside the hatch into your live connection will create a massive bridge tap?
The grey cable which runs from the hatch to the NTE has a load of unconnected pairs in it itself.
SO my thought would be to connect one of the currently unused pairs from the service cable onto the unused pairs between the hatch and the back of the NTE. I'm not au fait with the terminology, but I don't think this would be a bridge tap - essentially it is just extending the unconnected pair to be unconnected behind my NTE (in the house) as opposed to behind a soon to be difficult to access hatch.
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I would definitely suggest that you contact bt and ask for change point of entry, then they will just do what you want them to do - it will be worth it. I was delighted with the results.
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I would definitely suggest that you contact bt and ask for change point of entry, then they will just do what you want them to do - it will be worth it. I was delighted with the results.
I'll discuss this with them, thanks for the pointer. Though getting cable to the property if not via this hatch (which I guess disappears to the nearest BT hole in the pavement) may be tricky. All the cables appear to be underground under block weave paving across a communal courtyard.
I guess this work was chargeable at a fairly hefty cost?
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I would definitely suggest that you contact bt and ask for change point of entry, then they will just do what you want them to do - it will be worth it. I was delighted with the results.
This ^^^
A suitably trained engineer will be sent.
Explain what you plan to do.
Explain what you would like the engineer to do, perhaps asking their opinion.
Have tea and biscuits at the ready.
They are usually very accommodating to your requirements.
I think you're more likely to get a good job done with an engineer booked specifically for the task, rather than asking for that when an engineer shows up.
as for
Is this mine to meddle with (nothing on it says it isn't)... Really appreciate any advice.
It's usually anything up to and including the master socket is part of the OpenReach network and their responsibility. Not to be touched by us mere mortals.
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This ^^^
A suitably trained engineer will be sent.
Explain what you plan to do.
Explain what you would like the engineer to do, perhaps asking their opinion.
I'll cancel the appointment for the engineer visit and request a change of entry point appointment. Thank you for the advice.
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Did you book a 'change point of entry' type service appointment from BT?
This ^^^
A suitably trained engineer will be sent.
A "Change point of entry" isn't the same as a "socket move" appointment, correct?
edit: The person I spoke to this morning in online chat first offered me a move of my socket at £130; when I repeated my query she gave me a BT Openreach infrastructure phone number to call instead: 0800 783 2023.
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@bogof - to me change point of entry is the same thing as a socket move, just as radical as you like. Basically you get charged for one hour's anything you like and then a second hour won't be necessary I would think.
I had mine moved from downstairs to upstairs on a different side of the building so that there was then zero length of wire running around the outside and zero inside. The NTE5 (I have three) is right by the upstairs window and that's exactly the point where the drop cable at height hits the corner of the house. All in the goal of removing every last chance of local interference from sources in the house given my terrifyingly weak -66dB signal 4.55miles of (very good, thick) copper.
Best money I ever spent. Way back then, 8 years ago it was £120 for one hour, which sufficed iirc, and that was just to move and hugely shorten one line, as the other two lines hadn't been invented yet then. I can post up pics.
Have choc biscuits amongst your huge assortment ready, and _top_ coffee and tea. Although your BT man may be plagued with offers of tea already. And don't hover over the poor guy. Just be nearby if needed.
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I wasn't going to get involved as the thread was running along nicely, but this is a totally different scenario to your, Weaver .......
..... there's a world of difference between moving a dropwire, and relocating an underground feed that is 99% unlikely to be ducted. A world of difference. ;) :) :)
Wallet at the ready ??
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Agrees with Blacksheep. Mea culpa. Underground is a damn nuisance - I had not noticed that bit. Anyway tho, BT are good, just ask for what you need and they make it happen.
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On close inspection it appears the single black cable probably serves both our houses.
I'm sure you've already considered this, but if the black cable does serve two properties I'd also talk to the neighbour first before making any changes. (They might even be prepared to share the cost, if it worked in their favour too.)
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A "Change point of entry" isn't the same as a "socket move" appointment, correct?
You are correct. You do not need a "socket move" appointment . . . :no:
A "change of entry point" appointment implies adjustment to the incoming service feed, be it aerial or underground, and everything else in between the DP & the location where you require the NTE5 to be sited.
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This seems like it is going to be a ball ache :(
I spoke to BTOR infrastructure. Was a slightly surreal conversation as it turns out their office is actually on my road(!). I walk past it maybe 15 times a week.
Yes, the service arrives underground into the cavity between the two houses. Despite apparently there being a service hatch somewhere nearish the property according to the lady I spoke to, I'll be damned if I can see it (I wonder if it is in a flowerbed).
I have two options... a basic "overhead" engineering fee, which though the service is underground, if it could be within the realms of moving the cable a little within the houses could be done in a short space of time. £127 inc VAT.
Any more needs a survey at £300, plus the works. :(
It looks like the basic engineering fee route is a non-starter. The cable coming out of the ground into the cavity between the two houses is quite tight, and I probably couldn't move it closer to where it needs to be without having to make holes in both my neighbour and my walls and having their internal wiring re-done as well if there isn't enough slack. (to give us both access to the new location).
The survey route is basically spending £300 to find out how much more it is going to cost.
Unless I'm missing something in the way of a route open to me; in a pragmatic mood I'm thinking better to re-make my line connections with jelly crimps to make it secure and likely to survive, cover the access panel as desired and if the worst comes to the worst, and the line degrades and my neighbours won't allow access then I'll be into a survey fee situation, in the meantime I'm saving the cost.
I'd love to leave access, but I can't see how to leave anything that could be considered useful access given the room layout. At the end of the day, someone needs to be able to get access, get in tools and operate them, and be able to see what they're doing, for it to actually be useful. I'll have a word with the builders when they get here tomorrow to see if they can see a way around.
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Can you just not create a wee door that you can open and close? Or slide in and out with a latch to secure it?
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
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Yes, the service arrives underground into the cavity between the two houses. Despite apparently their being a service hatch somewhere nearish the property according to the lady I spoke to, I'll be damned if I can see it (I wonder if it is in a flowerbed).
In newer properties (circa 25-30yrs old ??) ...... there is a strip of land where the garden meets the road/pavement known as the 'Service strip' ..... they're approx. a metre wide and contain inspection chambers for the properties services.
These should be left clear and accessible, but I know from hundreds of personal experiences, they are usually covered with something for aesthetics.
Just for info really, in case your premises has one such strip ??
https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/cms/content/service-strips-public-highway-grass-verges
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Burakkucat is of course correct, I think I was oversimplifying. I meant ‘move socket and massive amount of gubbins attached to it and all necessary whatever needed’. I had an incredibly easy job, it was all just around the outside of the house anyway and totally accessible, which is very often the case.
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In newer properties (circa 25-30yrs old ??) ...... there is a strip of land where the garden meets the road/pavement known as the 'Service strip' ..... they're approx. a metre wide and contain inspection chambers for the properties services.
These should be left clear and accessible, but I know from hundreds of personal experiences, they are usually covered with something for aesthetics.
Just for info really, in case your premises has one such strip ??
https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/cms/content/service-strips-public-highway-grass-verges
No such luck really. We all have drives going up to our houses (a tight terrace of 35 year old houses) with just individual access for Gas / water meters etc through the block weave paving.
Did have some luck today. I asked 2 people yesterday to cancel the engineer visit, yet the guy still turned up, real nice young lad. He must have taken pity on the state of the wiring as he whipped out the old junction box and re-did the wiring for mine and my neighbours using jelly crimps, and placed them in a nice new grey tub with all the cables tied properly for relief. He was able to do all that from my side.
He also said it is probably a big old job to do the move. He reckons there will be a burried junction box somewhere under mine or my neighbours driveway (common for the time) and that getting the line moved would need digging that up and a new route of the cable into our property being made.
I'm minded to box it over for now, rely on access through next doors garage (though the newly terminated cables should hopefully be as good as it can be for what it is), and if I have to and if it comes to it at a later date I'll just have to bite the bullet and get it moved properly.
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I personally think you are over thinking this. It's terminated & working. BTO have responsibility up to & including the NTE. If your line fails in the future it will be their problem to start digging driveways up & installing a new line. Plenty of buildings have cables installed in their fabric (although not normally in the cavity!). If it fails it easier to install new. Your property doesn't look that old? A Big hole like that in the party wall isn't ideal in any case! Brick it up & stop worrying (gel crimps will almost definitely last forever).
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The only comment I would make is that your neighbour would appear to have 'star wiring' with 2 cables connected to his incoming pair which he may or may not wish to regularise at some point.
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I personally think you are over thinking this. It's terminated & working. BTO have responsibility up to & including the NTE. If your line fails in the future it will be their problem to start digging driveways up & installing a new line. Plenty of buildings have cables installed in their fabric (although not normally in the cavity!). If it fails it easier to install new. Your property doesn't look that old? A Big hole like that in the party wall isn't ideal in any case! Brick it up & stop worrying (gel crimps will almost definitely last forever).
Do you know if they still consider it their responsibility if you've done something like block an access hatch - or could they insist you do the work to move it? I would think that becomes quite arguable. I had thought myself that at the end of the day if it was blocked up and you asked for a new line they'd maybe come out and do some digging, though equally they might say there's supposed to be some wires there, go get em for us... :).
I'm with you personally now that it has been re-terminated to current standards - I think the circuit is as robust as it could be and I'm not going to go getting an expensive bit of work done to try and improve matters. I also deeply dislike the hole on two counts. One is the hole itself, and two is the neighbour has really easy access onto my phone line which could cause all manner of mayhem, clearly with no way to prevent this.
The BTOR chap also commented on their lacklustre wiring, but I'm not really going to go there. He was happy to re-terminate theirs too (at the end of the day I guess it is BT's network to do what they like with!). It does me no benefit to start riffling around discussing the phone wiring with them as they're tenants in a private rented house and I don't want any aspersion of guilt coming my way if they have any issues in future - it is between them an BTOR and I'm not involved.
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Do you know if they still consider it their responsibility if you've done something like block an access hatch - or could they insist you do the work to move it? I would think that becomes quite arguable. I had thought myself that at the end of the day if it was blocked up and you asked for a new line they'd maybe come out and do some digging, though equally they might say there's supposed to be some wires there, go get em for us... :).
This is a situation I come across daily in my area as we have a lot of estates where the underground feed goes directly into the property as opposed to an external wall. In this situation you would be given the choice of either making the feed accessible, or (for a fee) we would dig where the cable meets the house and re-route it into an external box.
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D'ya know, anfield ....... I almost posted the other day that I've only EVER seen this kind of scenario, when I've been on loan to Liverpool.
Nowhere else. :)
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Maybe we got some builders on loan when they did our place... lol
Why put two cables in when one will do? And while you're at it, just stick a big hole between the two garages. Who knows what other horrors I've yet to uncover...!
Probably the very definition of Normal for Norfolk...
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For anyone interested, this is what has replaced the old terminal block...
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Ah, a BT66. That will do nicely. :)
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I can't see from the pics, is that a very, very slim junction box then?
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Off-topic, slightly perhaps. If someone wanted to re-route a line, what about simply ordering an additional line and then doing a cease on the first one? Let's imagine that they want a lot of money out of you to move the line. If that doesn't work because they will just give you a second pair within the same drop cable / bundle (what is the correct term I’m groping for here?) then you simply order two additional lines at the same time so as to make the total up to three.
Would that be cheap per line?
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Ah, a BT66. That will do nicely. :)
Would have been much better off with a Dexseal 2/4 enclosure IMO.
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This is a situation I come across daily in my area as we have a lot of estates where the underground feed goes directly into the property as opposed to an external wall. In this situation you would be given the choice of either making the feed accessible, or (for a fee) we would dig where the cable meets the house and re-route it into an external box.
How does that work with BTO's claim that anything prior to the NTE is their property & subsequently their property?!
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Would have been much better off with a Dexseal 2/4 enclosure IMO.
Not for the engineer it wouldn't ............ he would have found himself on the end of a '10-point failure' for fitting an incorrect closure to an underground cable.
Discipline offence for quality of personal workmanship. Taken very seriously if he had been audited on the job.
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Do you know if they still consider it their responsibility if you've done something like block an access hatch - or could they insist you do the work to move it? I would think that becomes quite arguable. I had thought myself that at the end of the day if it was blocked up and you asked for a new line they'd maybe come out and do some digging, though equally they might say there's supposed to be some wires there, go get em for us... :).
I think you are giving BTO far too much credit. They won't have a clue where the cable is. IF & it's a very big IF it ever fails & they try & bill you argue the fact that their own terms state anything prior to the NTE is their property & responsibility. Seeing as you can't even see the cable enter your premises it's their problem to sort it out. You didn't install it that way & the fact is that cable should not be in the cavity, access hatch or not.
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Not for the engineer it wouldn't ............ he would have found himself on the end of a '10-point failure' for fitting an incorrect closure to an underground cable.
Discipline offence for quality of personal workmanship. Taken very seriously if he had been audited on the job.
Perhaps they should have audited the job when the line was first installed. If BTO take quality "seriously" then their standards are seriously awful.
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Get a grip. You are a supplier of wire/closures ... not an Openreach auditor, or engineer, or manager .... or anything to do with our business.
If the rules state that an 'above ground closure' CAN NOT be fitted onto underground cables, then that is how it is.
You don't appear to 'be up' on working regulations, or the fact that in some areas, underground cables were installed like this.
Just as the electrical regs change over the years, so do ours ...... so, to pick you up on your other faux-pas, if it HAD have been audited when it was first installed, it would have passed.
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Rather than try and paste over giving out wrong advice, by mentioning an ad-hoc wiring scenario that can't be proven, lets try and stick to giving the OP correct information shall we ??
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bogof
In my 33yrs of experience ..... my advice would be to just go ahead and cover the area where the cables meet.
It may be donkeys years before access was needed to the common-point, and if we can't find it/get to it ..... then we would simply input an A55 for our contractors to lay duct & rope, and an external BT66 would be sited.
Of course, we would need to then cable from here to your socket.
I have never personally known anyone be charged for this retrospective action, and the only duress to yourself/neighbour would be the laying of duct on your curtilage.
Reinstatement is guaranteed to be as good or better, than the state it was found in. Unless there's a filing cabinet in the way.
Basically, do what you have to do and sleep well tonight.
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I haven't read the whole thread, but I certainly do not like the way it was heading. :(
Some posts had already been removed by the time this came to my attention and I was about to lock this thread, but then realised it would be unfair on bogof, when he was asking for advice.
What I will say is that at least 2 very experienced BT/Openreach engineers have contributed to this thread (plus others). In particular, I would trust any advice given by Black Sheep as being current and correct.
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D'ya know, anfield ....... I almost posted the other day that I've only EVER seen this kind of scenario, when I've been on loan to Liverpool.
Nowhere else. :)
I am actually based around 100 miles further south, the username is a result of my loyal following of LFC :) Where I live the majority of areas built in the 60s/70s/80s are fed via frontage tees and direct lead ins, radial DP's and ducts are found only on relatively new estates.
Off topic but having worked all over the country on lodge it is interesting seeing how the network differs in different areas, there is a video on the BT archives website (titled Underground distribution on housing estates and found here https://www.btplc.com/Thegroup/BTsHistory/BTfilmarchive/1970s/index.htm) that shows some of the many different methods that were tried. I also find it amusing coming across lodge engineers in my patch with 20yrs experience who have never worked in a midland shelf pcp or jointing post/brick!
How does that work with BTO's claim that anything prior to the NTE is their property & subsequently their property?!
Any wiring prior to the NTE is openreach's responsibility to maintain, however it is also the customers responsibility to provide access to the wiring in their property in order for us to maintain it. If this is not possible and the only solution is to provide a new feed then this could be chargeable.
bogof
In my 33yrs of experience ..... my advice would be to just go ahead and cover the area where the cables meet.
I would agree with this - the wiring is unlikely to develop a fault unless there is damp nearby, and even if at a later date it did and you had to pay to remedy it that would cost no more than what you would have to pay to move it now anyway.
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Thank you all for the posts. I am indeed going to proceed on the basis discussed above - it all looks pretty sound now, I've always been able to sync above 84/24 due no doubt to close proximity to cab, and if I do have to pay to move it in future it probably won't be any more than I would have had to pay today (and might even not be for me to be pay at all in a fault situation).
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You've ruined my weekend, anfield !!! 'Midland Shelf Cabs' ...... :'( :wall: :wall: :rant: :rant: ........ no doubt a stock presence in your own locality, going off your given distance from Scouseland ??!! :) :)
I'd say MSC's are approx. 5% of our make-up on the SOM patch .... but there's (I believe) a national programme upcoming to have these removed and replaced with the latest push-connection Cabs ?? We'll see. ::) :)
The majority of our problem underground estates are deffo the 60/70's with frontage tees. One estate in particular started to see a plethora of faults coming on about 15yrs ago and it's known as 'JB23 alley' these days. Ha ha, it all adds to the fun and frustration.
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Off topic but having worked all over the country on lodge it is interesting seeing how the network differs in different areas, there is a video on the BT archives website (titled Underground distribution on housing estates and found here https://www.btplc.com/Thegroup/BTsHistory/BTfilmarchive/1970s/index.htm) that shows some of the many different methods that were tried. I also find it amusing coming across lodge engineers in my patch with 20yrs experience who have never worked in a midland shelf pcp or jointing post/brick!
Really enjoyed watching that, and I can conclude that I am on radial.