Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: broadstairs on January 17, 2018, 08:14:14 AM
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This morning DLM intervened to INCREASE my interleaving despite probably weeks of very low ES I had one bad day yesterday with something I believe to be external to my property causing a spike in errors. It is so frustrating that DLM does this with just one bad day and even that not a huge number of errors (165 ES down total) but is simply incapable of recognising that for weeks now my ES has been very very low and should have had interleaving removed a long time ago.
In my view DLM is not fit for purpose if all it does is hit lines with reduced capability and never removes it.
Stuart
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:-(
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This is the very reason I believe you should have he ability to reset your line.
There should be safeguards but giving the customer a relatively easy way to remove banding, remove interleaving or recover from a one off bad event would be advantageous.
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although your es might be low your snr is all over the place. I imagine that's not going to help the situation. some large drops on the US and ds. look at 10:30am today. pretty jumpy..
As an experiment I would cap it at 55mb and see how long it takes to hopefully go back to fast path. Even if it didn't last you would know how long it takes. I waited 5 weeks with no budge. Capped it and it was fine in 2 weeks. I then removed the cap.
why not give it a go?
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Yes I know my SNRM is all over the place today, this problem started a couple of days ago and seems intermittent. I simply do not believe that capping my line will fix the SNRM being all over the place. This is similar to an issue I had back in 2016 which eventually went away but not before it got me capped then in August 2016. This time the issue is not (yet) so bad and my line has been running so well for weeks up until now when this issue happened again. All I'll end up doing is probably hiding the current SNRM issue. I'd love to find out what is causing the noise issue. Nothing in the house has changed and at the time it started today we had nothing turned on other than my PC and the fridge/freezer, even the CH had gone off by then. It has to be something external to my house I believe. We dont have any nearby road works or building works and it is a residential area with no businesses nearby or between here and the cabinet other than some folks who work from home. The SNRM fluctuations started around 09:36 this morning and have not recovered properly yet and this seems to be what usually happens for a while.
Stuart
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I wasn't implying capping will fix the snr. I meant purely to get rid of interleaving. Cap it and see.
there was a bout of it on the 16th as well by the looks of it.Poor joint somewhere external perhaps. that was the theory as I had this problem to which was investigated but came to no avail. after 3 months of issues it just cleared up of its own accord...all very odd
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Isn't there a pumping station or something opposite the end of Linden Rd, next to the alleyway?
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Thats not a healthy line
Oscillating
Random SNR dips
Large CRC spikes even tho interleaved.
SES even tho interleaved
Looking at the 30 day history doesnt show a line with a low enough ES rate to stay in green for long enough on stable DLM profile.
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Isn't there a pumping station or something opposite the end of Linden Rd, next to the alleyway?
Its an electricity sub station.
Thats not a healthy line
Oscillating
Random SNR dips
Large CRC spikes even tho interleaved.
SES even tho interleaved
Looking at the 30 day history doesnt show a line with a low enough ES rate to stay in green for long enough on stable DLM profile.
How on earth low does it have to go then, ignoring the latest issue the max it has been is 34 in 24 hours. I know the line now is not healthy but as I said this happened before and I had 3 BTOR visits never fixed it got capped and then after capping still had the problem until about 4-5 weeks later it went away.
Even if I can get TT to report it to BTOR which is highly unlikely I dont have faith that it would be fixed only fudged.
Stuart
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The reality is that unless it gets much worse such as a complete outage or large speed drop below the handback threshold then its going to be considered "within spec".
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I'd give the same advice as SkyECI.
Capping the line about 50-55Mb should see interleaving drop off.
DLM seems to require much lower ES numbers than just ILQ green. I had to get my ES numbers down to (or very close to) single digits.
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My experience was that by limiting the sync speed, in my case I dropped from 35mbps down to 20mbps the interleaving was released within 3-4 days. However, the banding was not removed.
Does anyone have any information on what needs to happen for banding to be removed also? Other than an Openreach engineer visit.
Just over a week later I'm still on fastpath, but still banded.
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The reality is that unless it gets much worse such as a complete outage or large speed drop below the handback threshold then its going to be considered "within spec".
The problem last time was that although the connection speed dropped to well below ADSL speeds it was not a solid issue, they did send out 3 different BTOR guys none of whom managed a fix but one did cap me and that took a complaint direct to BT CEO to get it removed.
I'm not going to try to get interleaving removed unless or until the SNRM issue resolves somehow because with these error bursts if DLM did remove it then it wold put it back in no time at all. It is so frustrating that we can all see there is something wrong but I bet if I ask TT to do something they will take one look at the speeds and do naf all as they normally do.
Stuart
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I agree with john and skyeci, if you want fast path, cap your sync speed.
By the way when I said not healthy I didnt mean a physical line fault, I meant just not healthy in terms of noise levels. There will be line noise on copper broadband, its unavoidable.
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By the way when I said not healthy I didnt mean a physical line fault, I meant just not healthy in terms of noise levels. There will be line noise on copper broadband, its unavoidable.
Yes but it is not normally as bad as it is right now.
Stuart
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My experience was that by limiting the sync speed, in my case I dropped from 35mbps down to 20mbps the interleaving was released within 3-4 days. However, the banding was not removed.
Does anyone have any information on what needs to happen for banding to be removed also? Other than an Openreach engineer visit.
Just over a week later I'm still on fastpath, but still banded.
I think for banding you need to be synced at the banding rate "and" have a healthy snrm significantly above the target snrm.
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I think for banding you need to be synced at the banding rate "and" have a healthy snrm significantly above the target snrm.
The speed cap is now completely removed, and has been for over a week. The SNRM dB is 15.6.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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I notice that DLM has taken further action again today. Yet again ~160 Err Secs.
Do you by any chance have TalkTalk TV services?
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I wonder if the increased interleaving is due to the osciallting snr rather errors. Perhaps dlm is trying to stabilise snr and bring it back to target as it was under before.
now the US snr had practically died (3.2) surely this is a fault somewhere or large source of interference ? If it stays this low I imagine dlm will step in again to stabilise snr
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I notice that DLM has taken further action again today. Yet again ~160 Err Secs.
Do you by any chance have TalkTalk TV services?
No dont have that...
I wonder if the increased interleaving is due to the osciallting snr rather errors. Perhaps dlm is trying to stabilise snr and bring it back to target as it was under before.
now the US snr had practically died (3.2) surely this is a fault somewhere or large source of interference ? If it stays this low I imagine dlm will step in again to stabilise snr
Quite possibly trouble is I doubt that TT will acknowledge that it needs fixing!
The re-sync around 4am stabilised the SNRM but around 09:30 this morning it went pear shaped again.
Stuart
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yup still dropping on us :no:.. 2.6...wow..
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afaik DLM doesnt monitor SNRM in that respect. Its triggers are MTBE and MTBR.
My own line frequently oscilates often more than that, but DLM only takes action when the Err Secs get too high. If you look back on my line since before xmas you will see it oscillated betwen 6.3 & 4.8 dB for a few weeks. MDWS smooths out the spikes because of averages, but live mapping showed the spikes where every minute.
I've seen several other lines oscilate worse than that and it never takes any notice.
The oscilations dont even take broadstairs below 5dB. However DLM can and does take an interest in SES.
That one difference I notice between mine and broadstairs. Both may oscilate, Both can have large error spikes. BUT generally speaking my SES are typically < 1/4 of the E/S rate. Practically every one of Broadstairs E/S has been an SES.
All I can do is refer back to this post here (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,13769.msg280139.html#msg280139)
now the US snr had practically died (3.2) surely this is a fault somewhere or large source of interference ?
That wasn't there when I last looked. * It doesnt look good :(
*I'd originally looked at about 9am.. only noticed because it was on my MDWS screen when I'd gone to look at my own stats to see if there were any clues why I'd had no broadband for 5.5hrs last night.
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The speed cap is now completely removed, and has been for over a week. The SNRM dB is 15.6.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
just wait and see now, my comment is only a thoery based on what happened on my line.
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Well we had some more errors last evening but these were genuine because we had a thunderstorm. However my errors kicked in again this morning just after 09:00 but nothing in the house is timed to start at that time so it has to be external somewhere.
Stuart
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Looking at the graphs it seems today that the problem started around 9am and stopped around 4pm, being a Friday the problem seems to have finished earlier. It will be interesting to see if it happens over the weekend and starts again on Monday. If so it would seem to be someone doing work and causing noise but around here I am at a loss to see how or where as it is all residential. Even residential where the cabinet is on corner of Stone Road and Dickens Road in Broadstairs. VM work is going on in Kings Avenue near here but not that close and I dont see why that would be causing it.
Stuart
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Well yesterday passed without the line going very bad, my SNRM still is a tad flaky especially last night but nothing dreadful. So if today behaves the same way I'll be on the lookout for something happening nearby which is new and may be causing the very bad behavior.
Stuart
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Well I had a reasonable weekend error wise, not perfect though but significantly less trouble than last week. However this morning DLM intervened to reduce the interleaving but it looks very much as though my line got capped as my sync is 59993kbps probably last week during one of the interventions as my SNRM now is 6.4db and attainable is around 75000kbps. Both SNRMs are still jittery. I am still more convinced that DLM is broken and that I have a fault on my line but there is no way that I can report it to TT as they will look at the predicted speeds when I re-signed and say it is within spec.
The system is very broken where they are simply reducing the predicted speeds precisely to hide problems and reduce the call out rate. We have a broken system and BT need to stop the farce of G.FAST etc and start to deliver a 21st century solution which is far more reliable, country wide FTTP. If all the money was diverted from stuff like G.FAST and fixing a broken copper infrastructure which was never designed for its use today I'm sure things would improve. Although it would obviously take time half of the FTTP is already in place having fibre at the cabinet.
Stuart
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Well I had a reasonable weekend error wise, not perfect though but significantly less trouble than last week. However this morning DLM intervened to reduce the interleaving but it looks very much as though my line got capped as my sync is 59993kbps probably last week during one of the interventions as my SNRM now is 6.4db and attainable is around 75000kbps. Both SNRMs are still jittery. I am still more convinced that DLM is broken and that I have a fault on my line but there is no way that I can report it to TT as they will look at the predicted speeds when I re-signed and say it is within spec.
The system is very broken where they are simply reducing the predicted speeds precisely to hide problems and reduce the call out rate. We have a broken system and BT need to stop the farce of G.FAST etc and start to deliver a 21st century solution which is far more reliable, country wide FTTP. If all the money was diverted from stuff like G.FAST and fixing a broken copper infrastructure which was never designed for its use today I'm sure things would improve. Although it would obviously take time half of the FTTP is already in place having fibre at the cabinet.
Stuart
True. DLM sadly is used more to cover up faults instead of just being a temporary measure to keep a line stable until a fault is rectified. If you're banded then it may take a long time before the banding gets increased or removed by DLM. You may be better off going with an ISP who charges more but does their job in fighting Openreach for the customer (or tries very hard to do so) such as AAISP. Hopefully one month contract options will appear soon for FTTC.
I remember when I was with BT Business and I contacted them regarding a banded connection and they said I was getting a speed just above the estimate so there's nothing they could do. I think I was something like 60 Mbps when I could get the full 80 Mbps, and it was caused by a faulty SSFP filter installed by the engineer.
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I think there is no point in changing now. We have Virgin fibre being installed here so when that is available I'll have a proper 21st century solution instead of crap copper. Last time I was banded it took a complaint to BT CEO to get it removed after nearly 18 months.
Stuart