Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: anoggin on January 15, 2018, 05:23:04 PM
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In an earlier thread http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,20758.0.html (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,20758.0.html) I asked for help understanding why on 8 December my DS SNRM went from around 3 to around 12 and attainable sync went from 37 Kbps to 57 Kbps. Helpful people pointed out that vectoring was enabled on my line that day. Since then I have been getting a DS SNRM steady at around 11.5 and a calculated attainable sync remaining around 57 Kbps.
Today I phoned Zen to ask whether they could move me from their Unlimited Fibre 1 (advertised at 38Mbps max) to Unlimited Fibre 2 to take advantage of the extra speed. This did not go well. The tech support person had never heard of vectoring. He ran a line test and said it was reporting a DS SNRM of 3 (where my VMG1312-B10D says 11.5) and a max attainable speed of 40 Mbps (where the modem says 57Mbps). He insisted that the modem (which Zen supplied) must be reporting wrong figures and the line test he used was correct and authoritative. Therefore he refused to consider a move to the faster package.
Zen tech support staff are usually quite good but in this case they clearly need some training on what vectoring is. Could they also be using a line test that is not taking proper account of vectoring? Should I believe them when they say I can't get more than 40 Mbps, or should I believe the modem's SNRM and calculated attainable speed? If the latter, how would you suggest I try to persuade Zen to move me onto the faster package?
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It looks like the info from the line test is historic data - ie from prior to Dec 6th.
If it were me I'd ring them back and hope you get another agent. Zen have been expanding and taking on new staff, perhaps you were just unfortunate. :(
CS reps usually run a GEA Service Test. Quite often some of the info such as the line profile is out of date as will be indicated by the Time Stamp.
They really need to run an xDSL Status check which should give you your current sync speed, loop loss (atten) and Margin (SNRM), which is part of the KBD suite.
Problem being is Im not certain if it is available to LLU type ISPs or if it is strictly BTw. :(
I think what you need to ask for is one of the Brandenburg NGA tests.
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Thanks for the insights.
The tech support person ran a line test while I waited, so he said, and I could hear clicks on the line. So one might think he obtained up-to-date information. But he then quoted a SNRM, along with minimum (16.5), maximum (40.1) and estimated (28.7) speeds. I think these speeds are what I was quoted many months ago when I first got FTTC.
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I don't think that the current SNRM is even reported by the GEA service test. I think the xDSL status check is only applicable to ADSL.
You probably got told your estimated speeds, and the 3 dB was from a 3 dB target SNRM line profile.
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>> I don't think that the current SNRM is even reported by the GEA service test.
No its not, hence the equivalent of xDSL Status check being required.
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Not certain about the ISP's access tools .............. but our xDSL (ADSL only) equivalent test for FTTC, is called a GEA Diagnostic test.
It gives a plethora of info including 'Real Time HLOG_QLN Characteristic Check', SELT, Tie-Pair Status, IL2S hand-over point, Exchange side .... and of course the modem logs, which do show if vectoring is applied and the current SNRM amongst all the other stuff.
Not sure if this helps, but a bit of info all the same. :)
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Thank you BS. The ISPs do have a GEA service test, but it doesnt show the full line stats. :/
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I've been reliably informed that they can't get real time data, but if they go into RRT, they will get historic data over a period of time which should give them a good idea of SNRM etc is doing now. It shows the min/max/avg and then you can click on that for more details and dates.
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It certainly sounds like he's got 3dB from the Target SNRM and 40Mbps from your DLM Profile Name in a GEA test.
It may be an idea to run a BTw checker test, but I suspect that data will also be dated due to vectoring only recently being applied.
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ETA... Here you can see data for the past 28 days :)
From another image I was sent it also looks like this data could be graphed.. which if so is good news bringing NGA into line with RRT graphing (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM_system.htm#KBD) that was previously only available for 21CN.
Thanks and credit goes to a certain ISP rep for taking the time to run a test, so I could show you guys that RRT is now also available for FTTC :)
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I have the same Issue !, after 4 months banging my head against a wall I have given up hope.
Vectoring enabled on my line close to 6 months ago not long after going to a 3db profile , my attainable now is 73MB, BT are adamant my line is only capable of 49mb and that's all they will give me.
No way to explain to them that the checker is way out of date, but the Checker says on a good clean A line my max is 49mb so that's all I can get :(.
You just end up on the phone for hours going round and round in circles being passed for pillar to post.
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You just end up on the phone for hours going round and round in circles being passed for pillar to post.
Sorry to hear it. I had hoped Zen would do better than that, but it seems not. I asked for a call back when the tech support person had had time to find out about vectoring, which he'd never heard of. The call hasn't come.
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The only option then is change ISP provider to BT with this upto 52Mbps (55/10) Infinity 1
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The only option then is change ISP provider to BT with this upto 52Mbps (55/10) Infinity 1
No doubt you are right. It's just that the day I finally got away from BT was one of the happiest of my life, and I'd rather stand under a cold shower tearing up £10 notes than have anything to do with them again. I accept that others may have a different view.
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No doubt you are right. It's just that the day I finally got away from BT was one of the happiest of my life, and I'd rather stand under a cold shower tearing up £10 notes than have anything to do with them again. I accept that others may have a different view.
Have the same view and it makes me wonder who would benefit from this XdB & Vectoring change the only ISP to offer 55/10 is BT or am I being too cynical :-\
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Re the checker, Im not too sure what can be done about that. I suspect it won't give out new stats because not all modems offer vectoring support. Also it can't update for your line because it wont have seen you sync at the higher rate.
Re Zen. It is disappointing. As mentioned they have recently taken on a lot of new staff and I suspect you may have gotten one of those. I know that at one point all new CS reps were made to sit down and read certain pages on my website before being let loose to the General Public, but I dont really cover vectoring.
I would ring back again and hope you get someone more knowledgeable and if not ask to speak to a supervisor. Ask them if they can do to do a historic RRT test which will show your stats for the past 28 days.
Normally at this point I would have given Azzaka a prod, but unfortunately he doesnt work for Zen anymore :/
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Have the same view and it makes me wonder who would benefit from this XdB & Vectoring change the only ISP to offer 55/10 is BT or am I being too cynical :-\
The theory is the EU should benefit. Why more ISPs dont offer 55/10 Ive no idea.. thats their choice and nothing stopping them. Probably want those who can get more to opt for the more expensive 80/20.
There shouldn't be any reason why Zen cant at least try the OP on 80/20. Didnt Plusnet used to put all accounts on 80/20
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Thank you for your thoughtful help, Kitz.
Catch-22 comes to mind.
By the way, when the tech support person realised he had no idea what I was talking about, he went off to speak to a colleague who told him that vectoring would have an effect 'only on long lines' and would therefore make no difference to mine. That sounds to me as though they were confusing vectoring with long-reach VDSL. But I'm not knowledgeable enough to win an argument with them on the technical aspects.
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I'd be phoning and asking to speak to someone much higher up the chain, and perhaps insist they read this thread.
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/snip/ .... a colleague who told him that vectoring would have an effect 'only on long lines' and would therefore make no difference to mine.
Oh dear! Not at all the response I would have expected from Zen TS :'(
Cross-talk affects shortest lines the most, thus shorter lines see the most speed improvement gains from vectoring. :-\
I'd be phoning and asking to speak to someone much higher up the chain, and perhaps insist they read this thread.
Good idea.
If Leo was still around the sharp pointy stick would be out by now. Unfortunately most of the Zen staff I know have now left for other places and Zen don't seem to have a forum team these days like they used to. I still know a couple of people there, but they don't work on the DSL/tech side.
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Just for info really, my stats with 3db and Vectoring , line length minimum 750 meters to cab (straight line House to FTTC cab)
(https://i.imgur.com/8PeH9L6h.jpg)
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my stats with 3db and Vectoring , line length minimum 750 meters to cab (straight line House to FTTC cab)
Nice. If you could get BT to upgrade you line then it would sync higher than my 300m line.
Currently at 72.7 Mbps, although can drop to 67/68 with INP. Max attainable used to be 108 Mbps. Just shows how much crosstalk has eroded my line :(