Kitz Forum

Announcements => News Articles => Topic started by: adslmax on December 04, 2017, 10:36:57 AM

Title: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: adslmax on December 04, 2017, 10:36:57 AM
What you think of today's press news from ofcom?

Link here: https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/12/openreachs-fttp-rollout-may-add-7-per-month-uk-broadband-prices.html

For me, I am more than happy to pay an extra £7 per month to help Openreach to roll out FTTP in nationwide. But I can see installation charge £250 that's pretty good in my view. Thinking copper wiring are set to retire one day.
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: kitz on December 04, 2017, 12:19:28 PM
I foresee problems with that. 

The 'LLU' ISPs wont be too happy about the prospect of retiring ADSL. 
There is still a large market where people really dont care if their connection speed is <20 Mbps and they feel it is adequate for general surfing and email. For them its a cheap way to get internet so the prospect of £7 pm wont go down too well with that portion of the market.

Its how the likes of TT & Sky are currently able to compete where there is existing Virgin Fibre.   Those EU#s quite happy paying the likes of TT, Plusnet and Sky circa £20pm for phone and adsl compared to £40 for Virgin (discounted to ~£30 for first year.   They certainly will not be wanting to pay £250 installation.     This market is much bigger than you think Max.

Not even sure how the FTTC market would react to the possibility of increased bills.  The average joe blogs is more concerned about cost than speed.   An awful lot of people only took out the 40Mbps package despite the fact their line could cope with more. 

Perhaps it may hav been different if OFCOM hadnt been so pro LLU years ago - who knows? -  but those ISPs now have a large foot in the market place and a big say what happens.
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: Chrysalis on December 04, 2017, 12:44:01 PM
The mainstream market has already paid circa £7 a month increase kitz on line rental alone, the problem is that has gone to the CPs instead of openreach.  So the market is definitely tolerating price increases. We must remember this when talking about toleration to price increases, the days of static pricing on broadband/voice is long gone.

People will always shop around its how britians work, but in a situation where every single provider has a £7 a month baseline increase they will tolerate it, even if they moan and groan.

Given the way ofcom have been squeezing openreach, it wouldnt surprise me if openreach have deliberately over projected the figure with the foresight that ofcom will squeeze it down.
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: stevebrass on December 04, 2017, 01:08:30 PM
If the only game in town is to pay £7 more or have no service I guess most will pay it. I agree though that many users - myself included are happy enough with. 15mbs adsl/vsdl service. Of course if something super duper comes along that needs higher speeds/latency that satisfaction might disappear.

Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: Chrysalis on December 04, 2017, 01:10:59 PM
Well the article doesnt give any indication this scenario would undeploy adsl, it just said there would be a £7 premium on prices.  It also doesnt say what prices whether its just FTTP or for every openreach service, its too vague really to make any conclusions.

I think ofcom are never going to agree to adsl been retired in the forseeable future, so I can only guess this is just the premium on FTTP.

Its a shame sharon is not auditing the CPs in the same manner given the way they increase costs above inflation every year now for the last several years as well as other charges openreach dont charge for such as connection fees and so on.  I found her talk about cost efficiency amusing in that respect.
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: phi2008 on December 04, 2017, 01:11:20 PM
The mainstream market has already paid circa £7 a month increase kitz on line rental alone ...

Maybe a more agreeable dilemma is whether someone would be prepared to stump up, up to, £1.75/week extra - to have access to possible 300Mb and higher speeds, over a more reliable medium than copper? This is a similar technique the BBC has used to justify the TV licence, breaking the full yearly charge into lower timescales.
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: Chrysalis on December 04, 2017, 01:17:06 PM
I still consider this a regulation problem.

The consumer pays the total price which includes the retailer and whole cut of the fee.

The problem is the regulator is only regulating the wholesaler, so we have the retailer pumping up their share whilst the wholesaler has their hands tied, yet its the wholesaler who is expected to foot the bill for any investment.  Its nonsense.

If prices are going to be regulated with the view that low prices are essential to the market then the burden of that needs to be shared between wholesaler and retailer, both ends have to be capped, and half of the affect of the current cap has to be shifted from openreach to the CP.

So e.g. £19 line rental, £9 to openreach.  Would change to £18 line rental with £14 going to openreach and just £4 to the CP instead of £10.  With openreach agreeing to rollout FTTP for this arrangement.  Any future price increases openreach would be guaranteed at least 50% of the increase.
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: Ixel on December 04, 2017, 02:04:48 PM
I don't mind paying that amount extra per month in the short term before FTTP arriving in my area and in the long term after FTTP is installed here if it means FTTP will be here in the short term. If it means I'm paying that for years though with no sign of FTTP in my area then I'm against paying that.
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: Bowdon on December 04, 2017, 03:54:28 PM
I wonder what the amount of money OR pay to maintain the copper network?

4K TV's are now in trend. I suspect they will be the big ticket item of this Christmas. I bought a 43in tv for my bedroom with 4K technology. But that is the lowest size. The average is 49in and above. We also have the new generation of consoles putting out 4K image technology.

The problem with ADSL and the lower end speeds of fttc is they won't be able to cope with 4K series/movies streaming, especially if multiple devices are using the Internet at the time.

OR need to be ahead of the trends or the voices pushing for fttp will become stronger and stronger.

An extra £84 per year for FTTP sounds good to me.

P.S.

I think a 2 tier system would be ok if the 2nd tier (below fttp) was also good.. so G.fast pods deployed in to high density areas, like council estates and other places like that, offering a G.fast pod cheaper solution, while the outer areas were getting fttp. Then when all surrounding area is fttp, then entering the council estates to build it up there too.
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: niemand on December 04, 2017, 04:44:37 PM
OR are never ahead of the trend. It's not in their DNA. They provide their customers, the CPs, with what they want. A good part of the CPs want to sweat copper for as long as possible and, for them, retiring it is anathema.
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: niemand on December 04, 2017, 05:38:25 PM
Going forward I have long advocated higher broadband pricing in return for more rapid delivery of FTTP. Even though this won't benefit me personally I've no problem with it at all. Well overdue, and if Sky / TalkTalk don't like this or the retirement of copper they can go rotate.
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: kitz on December 04, 2017, 06:19:18 PM
Quote
he mainstream market has already paid circa £7 a month increase kitz on line rental alone, the problem is that has gone to the CPs instead of openreach.

It's been used to subsidise broadband.  Thats why its been tollerated.  The general public wont be aware that Openreach & wholesale line rental charges have dropped.
Years ago when I was with BE*, my line rental with BT was £15 plus call plan.  Today its £18.99 (https://www.products.bt.com/landline/).  They're used to seeing it go up by about 50p a year to get dirt cheap broadband.  £7 a big jump.

Quote
The problem is the regulator is only regulating the wholesaler, so we have the retailer pumping up their share whilst the wholesaler has their hands tied, yet its the wholesaler who is expected to foot the bill for any investment.  Its nonsense.

Totally agree Ive been harping on about it for years.  OFCOMS answer last year was to ensure broadband and line rental prices are lumped together. 

Quote
A good part of the CPs want to sweat copper for as long as possible and, for them, retiring it is anathema.
Yup..  its not going to help their market share in areas where VM have a prescence if prices have to go up.

Quote
Well overdue, and if Sky / TalkTalk don't like this or the retirement of copper they can go rotate.

It needs to happen, but I bet they wont take it quietly.   OFCOM have pandered to certain SP's when it comes to unbundling... which isn't helping the roll out of full fibre.   
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: burakkucat on December 04, 2017, 06:55:06 PM
Once Europe is gone there is no need for Ofcom.  :-X
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: phi2008 on December 04, 2017, 08:08:13 PM
Europe gone, and if Corbyn is in ... it may also mean a national FTTP network.
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: WWWombat on December 05, 2017, 12:29:45 AM
The mainstream market has already paid circa £7 a month increase kitz on line rental alone,

The market have been told they've paid £7pm more on line rental, but in reality they've paid for the extra usage happening within so-called "unlimited" accounts, while ISPs have hidden in a conspiracy of lies.

That will come back to bite Openreach, as punters will (rightly, given their perspective) note that they've already been paying excess line rental: Don't they deserve fibre now?
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: burakkucat on December 05, 2017, 12:33:26 AM
I would far prefer to pay Openreach, directly, for the infrastructure that I use and then pay my CP for the service(s) to which I subscribe.
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: WWWombat on December 05, 2017, 12:35:42 AM
Once Europe is gone there is no need for Ofcom.  :-X

Catch-22 in Brexitland (Hard Brexiters have just discovered Britain is weaker than Ireland (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/04/hard-brexiters-britain-weaker-ireland-brexit-talks-irish-border-lesson)) likely means "continued regulatory alignment" for the whole UK.

At least until someone lets the cat out of the bag regarding Russian shenanigans.
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: WWWombat on December 05, 2017, 12:37:38 AM
I would far prefer to pay Openreach, directly, for the infrastructure that I use and then pay my CP for the service(s) to which I subscribe.

If we're ever to step away from national pricing, then I can see that being the solution.

It allows all sorts of adjustments to the concept of contract terms too.
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: WWWombat on December 05, 2017, 12:57:00 AM
What you think of today's press news from ofcom?

For me, I am more than happy to pay an extra £7 per month to help Openreach to roll out FTTP in nationwide

Sorry max, but I read the story as an implication that Ofcom won't allow these charges to happen. They won't allow copper to be retired. They won't do anything that makes it plausible for Openreach to follow a sane upgrade path.

While Openreach have been working to promote some semblance of cooperation in the market, it feels that Ofcom have been moving in the opposite direction, feeding adversity.

At the moment, Ofcom seem to be treading a path to entice "competition" into the full-fibre market. This is really to create a market-entry opportunity for an altnet, while simultaneously denying the ability to compete to Openreach. The pro-competition lobby in government will see this as win-win.

It seems to me that Openreach are going to have a choice:
a) Go all-out on copper G.Fast. A proper Swisscom, FTTS-style shortened copper setup
b) Go all-out on FTTP under their own steam, forgetting any of the concessions they've been asking for
c) Go all-out on legal appeals

Link here: https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/12/openreachs-fttp-rollout-may-add-7-per-month-uk-broadband-prices.html

But I can see installation charge £250 that's pretty good in my view.

I don't see a £250 installation charge in the story.

I see that Ofcom invented an average cost to Openreach that is half of what Openreach themselves say. But a "cost per home passed" deployment cost to Openreach is not the same thing as an installation charge paid by the punter.

Simple maths: If there is a 33% takeup, then £250 per-home passed turns into £750 per-home-connected.
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: Chrysalis on December 05, 2017, 03:14:20 AM
I would far prefer to pay Openreach, directly, for the infrastructure that I use and then pay my CP for the service(s) to which I subscribe.
yep remove ofcoms silly artificial arrangement
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: stevebrass on December 05, 2017, 09:29:09 AM
Once Europe is gone there is no need for Ofcom.  :-X

Do you mean OFCOM per se or any form of regulation?
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: burakkucat on December 05, 2017, 09:52:48 PM
The former. "Light touch" regulation will be required . . . for the good of this Nation. ::)
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: kitz on December 05, 2017, 11:39:51 PM
The former. "Light touch" regulation will be required . . . for the good of this Nation. ::)

Yep.  It really is complicated.  IMHO OFCOM has pandered to the whims of a certain unbundled ISP, regardless of may be best for long term broadband in the UK.
I'm not saying BT are saints, because IMO they would get try get away with what they could.   

But a certain company is far from whiter than white, and its why I personally would not use them after my previous ISP was taken over.  I have tried my damndest to remain neutral and have on many occasions recommended them if I felt that would be best option for the EU.

However over the past few years,    I've seen some pretty border-line stuff of which I'm not sure I approve of, because to TBF it really is dirty tactics.  eg

Whilst my memory is like a sieve these days, the info should be out there that I am not telling porkie pies about this.   Its just very well hidden.   I think I may have mentioned this previously, but if you search under the correct name which I wish I could remember now, all will be revealed.

I think the other thing that opened my eyes further is the way a certain news channel handled the outbreak of the TalkTalk hacking scandal.     I remember that night very well because I was sat holding my dads hand not wanting to move because at this point he only had function of his hand for 'yes' or 'no'.   By default the TV in his room was tuned into a certain station and I couldn't move to change channels as I didnt want to let go.     When his time came..  I got to see news reports from other stations and boy what a difference on the spin and out to decimate a competitor.   :'( 

There is more..   but I've said enough... as its taken me back 2yrs and thus I'm out of steam.  :'( :'( 
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: burakkucat on December 06, 2017, 12:00:54 AM
b*cat nods, knowingly.  :flower:
Title: Re: Openreach’s FTTP Rollout May Add £7 Per Month to UK Broadband Prices
Post by: NewtronStar on December 06, 2017, 07:27:43 PM
In the last month or so BT Availability Checker now shows FTTP on demand in this area but I can't afford this service nor could I make full use of it and my current provider EE will increase the broadband price by 0.75p in January 2018 +1p increase in calls outside the All Call Plan.