Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: adslmax on November 26, 2017, 02:24:09 PM
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Hi everyones
Do you think there is possible chance of DLM has a problem with system stuck with a banding profile at openreach system. I do believed it does. Need to raise this with isp's to chase this up with Openreach because the downstream still banding at 74Meg capped wouldn't go back to 80Meg as the result of losing 6Meg off:
1st resync: 11th Nov 2017
Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB): 11.5 0.0
Signal attenuation (dB): Not available on VDSL2
Connection speed (kbps): 79999 20000
SNR margin (dB): 8.3 13.9
Power (dBm): 12.4 -0.6
Interleave depth: 8 8
INP: 46.00 47.00
G.INP: Enabled Enabled
2nd resync: 12th Nov 2017
Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB): 11.5 0.0
Signal attenuation (dB): Not available on VDSL2
Connection speed (kbps): 73998 20000
SNR margin (dB): 10.1 14.0
Power (dBm): 12.5 -0.6
Interleave depth: 8 4
INP: 52.00 55.00
G.INP: Enabled Enabled
3rd resync: 22nd Nov 2017
Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB): 11.5 0.0
Signal attenuation (dB): Not available on VDSL2
Connection speed (kbps): 74000 20000
SNR margin (dB): 10.0 14.4
Power (dBm): 12.4 -0.6
Interleave depth: 16 8
INP: 49.00 47.00
G.INP: Enabled Enabled
4th resync: 26th Nov 2017
Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB): 11.4 0.0
Signal attenuation (dB): Not available on VDSL2
Connection speed (kbps): 74000 19999
SNR margin (dB): 9.9 15.1
Power (dBm): 12.5 -0.9
Interleave depth: 16 1
INP: 49.00 0
G.INP: Enabled Not enabled
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Max... a few of us have been discussing this for years on here and how long it takes to get banding removed. :(
But on the other hand... look at it this way.
A couple of weeks ago the DLM monitored your line doing 80 resyncs in one day. To DLM that is an extremely unstable line, so it did the right thing.
It's now going to need convincing that your line is stable before removing any banding.
We've told you on numerous occasions that it could take several weeks/months.. and that because your line still falls within acceptable levels then you won't qualify for a reset.
I meant to type this in your thread over on the PN forums but never got around to going over there... but since I still had your GEA test results in notepad then I may as well post it here.
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Interference Pattern Regular Interference Observed Daily
Interference seen on 2-3 days out of the recent 7
Service Impact Retrains Observed
Self explanatory
Retrains 0.0 80.0 0.0
That is exceedingly high. Usually it is only 1or2 unless the line is flapping around.
I think this is also over the past 7 day period, and if Im right then...
The min no of retrains in any one day over the past 7 days is 0
The max no of retrains in any one day over the past 7 days is 80
Not sure how the average is worked out. If they are using median or mode average (as opposed to mean) then it would be 0
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ETA - Just for the sake of clarification... these results are based on a GEA test run on the 13/11/2017
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Rather than GEA tests this is what I'd like to see
link (https://community.plus.net/t5/Fibre-Broadband/Openreach-make-change-G-INP-amp-IP-Profile-on-huawei-cabinet/m-p/1490945/highlight/true#M67850)
@Gandalf
Can you by any chance get the ILQ counter status?
That would be interesting to see.
I'm not sure if Plusnet can get ILQ counter status on NGA, but they can for 21CN.
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@ kitz
Retrains 0.0 80.0 0.0 I blamed this on power cut or engineer working on my cabinet at that time. Impossible for me to reboot modem or swap modem in 80 times in a day! No way!
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Do you think there is possible chance of DLM has a problem with system stuck with a banding profile at openreach system. I do believed it does.
No, it doesn't. DLM is working as attended - each resync is gradually reducing the level of INP on the line in small steps to ensure the line remains stable after each change. It does this first and will then eventually look at changing the speed.
What would be more interesting would be knowing the time between each DLM resync.
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Because you had the HubOne and and no line monitoring we will never know for certain... although I suspect you may be right about the power problem could have had something to do with it.
Regular Interference Observed Daily
This bit also infers that your SNRm was unstable & you'd been getting errors. Regular = 2 or 3 days out of the past 7.
Power problems could have caused your SNRm to start spiking all over the show... or it may have just been oscillating a fair bit between several dB.
It's not unusual for any modem to get oscillating SNRm after power failures or power cuts.
Whatever it was.. DLM detected that you SNRm was showing some sort of interference and swinging around generating lots of errors.
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What would be more interesting would be knowing the time between each DLM resync.
I don't think we have any way of knowing that :( It could have been over the course of the day.. or it could have been within an hour :/
If Plusnet can get ILQ counters then it may give a bit more info.
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I think the "Regular Interference Observed Daily" doesn't really imply very much. Supposedly this regularly observed daily interference is causing retrains, yet all the retrains observed appear to be a one-off event on a single day. If this regularly observed daily interference were really causing retrains, I'd expected there to be daily retrains, which aren't happening.
I assume the interference is actually detected from the INM (impulse noise monitoring) data rather than a graph of SNRM.
I've seen enough GEA Test results posted showing "Regular Interference Observed Daily" that it doesn't really seem to matter. Lots of lines will have some detectable interference.
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I assume the interference is actually detected from the INM (impulse noise monitoring) data rather than a graph of SNRM.
My assumption that the SNRm would be oscillating... which was in turn responsible for generated errors.
You are correct that there is no SNRM graph (well afaik there isnt)... but rather INM based on the number of errors recorded.
I've seen enough GEA Test results posted showing "Regular Interference Observed Daily" that it doesn't really seem to matter. Lots of lines will have some detectable interference.
That 2-3 day figure came from something I read long ago as to what BT defined as regular within KBD results. It may have changed since.. I dunno.
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You are correct that there is no SNRM graph (well afaik there isnt)
Actually I have a niggle about this... because I cant remember now and its stuff I saw long ago. But something is really bugging me on this.. that there was something within BRAT that may have the ability to do some very basic graphing. Do not ever quote me on that though as its really hazy from when the Brandenburg tool first came out.
That doesnt change the fact that analysis is done based on the error data. The graphing was supposed to be a nice extra for SPs.
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Woah... here you go... I thought I remembered something. This was written in 2014 when my memory was a hell of a lot better than it is now :/
~ Knowledge Based Diagnostics - KBD (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM_system.htm#KBD)
The data collector also records other stats about the line health which is used for fault diagnostics.
This system is known as KBD or Knowledge Based Diagnostics and whilst not part of the DLM process itself, it allows an ISP to view line data in depth and will show not only the MTBE & MTBR but other information such as SNR Margin, attenuation, power and error counters. This information is stored in an RRT database.
BT KBD RRT
Data collected for KBD can be graphed and viewed using the RRT (Reactive Repair Tool).
The BRAT tool (Brandenburg Rapid Analysis Tool) can use this data to help identify and spot faults such as those indicative of REIN.
(http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/images/KBD_RRT.png)
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@ kitz I do remember now, it blamed over hub one updated software version and the line couldn't reconnection from dslam flashing on off for couples of minutes and hub one keep rebooted it.
Total time = 3 days 2 hours 55 min 28 sec
FEC: 6508 1604
CRC: 569 7
ES: 11 4
SES: 11 0
UAS: 64 53
LOS: 1 0
LOF: 7 0
LOM: 0 0
My SNRM was between 9.9 and 10.9 over 3 days on the downstream.
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What would be more interesting would be knowing the time between each DLM resync.
Done, I have re-edited time stamp on the first post.
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@ kitz I do remember now, it blamed over hub one updated software version and the line couldn't reconnection from dslam flashing on off for couples of minutes and hub one keep rebooted it.
Total time = 3 days 2 hours 55 min 28 sec
FEC: 6508 1604
CRC: 569 7
ES: 11 4
SES: 11 0
UAS: 64 53
LOS: 1 0
LOF: 7 0
LOM: 0 0
My SNRM was between 9.9 and 10.9 over 3 days on the downstream.
Just to be clear arent those from the Billion?... and after DLM had started to take action on your line. From memory it had already applied INP (and Interleave depth 8).
It sounds like the damage was already done whilst the HubOne was on the line and you had no access to line stats.
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Those stats are from billions modem as I put hub one as the wireless only
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Plusnet told me there isn't any DLM caution counter on their system. Nothing is updated yet from Openreach.
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Wrong thread max? I'll move your post.
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Plusnet told me there isn't any DLM caution counter on their system.
Wasn't sure if they could get that info for NGA DLM. Was worth a shot asking though.
Nothing is updated yet from Openreach.
Max - you will know way before Plusnet do. So not much point asking them to repeat GEA tests. :/
The first thing that will happen is your line will resync.
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Plusnet have ran GEA Test result below:
Test Outcome Pass
Test Outcome Code GTC_FTTC_SERVICE_0000
Description GEA service test completed and no fault found .
Main Fault Location OK
Sync Status In Sync
Downstream Speed 73.9 Mbps
Upstream Speed 20.0 Mbps
Appointment Required N
Fault Report Advised N
NTE Power Status PowerOn
Voice Line Test Result Pass
Bridge Tap Not Detected
Radio Frequency Ingress Not Detected
Repetitive Electrical Impulse Noise Not Detected
Cross Talk Not Detected
Estimated Line Length In Metres 248.3
Upstream Rate Assessment Very Good
Downstream Rate Assessment Reasonable
Interference Pattern Not Detected
Service Impact No Impact Observed
Home Wiring Problem Not Detected
Downstream Policing Discard Rate 0.0
Customer Traffic Level Upstream and Downstream Traffic Detected
Technology VDSL
Current 15Min Bin Retrains 0
Last 15Min Bin Retrains 0
Profile Name 0.128M-74M Downstream, Retransmission High - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Retransmission High
Time Stamp 2017-11-16T16:30:00
Parameters MIN MAX AVG
Down Stream Line Rate 73.9 Mbps 74.0 Mbps 73.9 Mbps
Up Stream Line Rate 19.9 Mbps 20.0 Mbps 20.0 Mbps
Up Time 0.0 Sec 900.0 Sec 897.7 Sec
Retrains 0.0 1.0 0.0
Current and Last 15 Minute Bin Performance
Parameters Last Traffic Count(Upto 15 mins) Current Traffic Count(Upto 15 mins)
Start Time Stamp 2017-11-29T15:59:49Z 2017-11-29T16:14:49Z
Ingress Code Violation 1 0
Egress Code Violation 0 0
Errored Seconds 0 0
Severely Errored Seconds 0 0
Unavailable Seconds 0 0
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Just as well Plusnet don't get charged per GEA test. I have no idea why they are continuing to run them for you, I guess the stories of long waits for support from them aren't true if they've nothing better to do.
Openreach are not sitting there monitoring lines and don't update providers when the DLM state changes. As kitz rightly said the first anyone will know of any changes is you when your service flaps and parameters change.
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No, I just telling PN that my line is BANDED at 74Meg but I think DLM taking it times to restored my line back to 80 Meg in due course or might never happen. I also asked them to look into DLM caution counter.
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Perhaps you could try running loads and loads of speedtests, get some poor speedtest results, show Plusnet all the bad ones, and see if they will get Openreach out based on all your bad speedtest results? Or perhaps unplug and re-plug your modem lots of times, and try to get Openreach out based on all those connection drops? It's not like anyone is going to know what actually caused them. Obviously the Openreach person would find no fault, maybe you'd have to pay, but you might be able to convince them to do a DLM reset while they're there.
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After xmas, I have decided to migration my fibre over to Pulse8 from Plusnet for a change. (both line and fibre to be moving away from plusnet)
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I'll give them a heads up ;)
Just to set expectations properly they will behave no differently from Plusnet in circumstances like this. They won't raise tickets to TTB for banding unless it's outside estimate either.
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Leaving an ISP because of this is excessive in my opinion. They have absolutely no control over this.
Interleaving would taken more off your sync than the banding has. Would you leave an ISP because your line has had interleaving applied?
You keep being given advice to leave it alone, and it isn't affecting your service in any way. Why are you asking Plusnet to run another GEA test?
Having had a look at the new GEA test it gives some interesting info.
The GEA test now shows the banding. It is still old and out of date though.
Profile Name 0.128M-74M Downstream, Retransmission High - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Retransmission High
Time Stamp 2017-11-16T16:30:00
The line changed from Retransmission High Downstream/Upstream to Retransmission Low Downstream/Upstream on 22nd November.
So the last couple GEA tests have had a line profile that's 13 days old. You can see this from the Timestamp of the above profile ran on the 29th but dated the 16th.
It was the same with the 1st GEA test
Profile Name 0.128M-80M Downstream, Retransmission Low - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off
Time Stamp 2017-10-29T20:30:00
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??? It's now has gone 19 days with DLM banding on my line. Dunno how long to wait before it will removed 74Meg banding? Getting annoying now with DLM as my line is stable enough.
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Plusnet Fault Team are lying over banded.
Dear Mr *********,
Thanks so much for your call today.
As discussed, currently your line is running without any indication of a fault and is running well within the line estimates and there is no banding on the line.
The numbers within the line speed profile name are simply taken from the DLM speeds and on fibre the DLM simply reacts to the line performance rather than dictating the speeds the line is achieving.
As there is no indication of a fault on you r line and your line speeds are running well within the line estimates of 70.6Mbps and 80Mbps there is no further action required at the moment, unless your speed is under the lower end of the estimate range.
Apologies for any inconvenience or confusion.
As requested here are the result of the GEA test I ran on your service today:
Test Outcome Pass
Test Outcome Code GTC_FTTC_SERVICE_0000
Description GEA service test completed and no fault found .
Main Fault Location OK
Sync Status In Sync
Downstream Speed 73.9 Mbps
Upstream Speed 19.9 Mbps
Appointment Required N
Fault Report Advised N
NTE Power Status PowerOn
Voice Line Test Result Pass
Bridge Tap Not Detected
Radio Frequency Ingress Not Detected
Repetitive Electrical Impulse Noise Not Detected
Cross Talk Not Detected
Estimated Line Length In Metres 248.3
Upstream Rate Assessment Very Good
Downstream Rate Assessment Reasonable
Interference Pattern Not Detected
Service Impact No Impact Observed
Home Wiring Problem Not Detected
Downstream Policing Discard Rate 0.0
Customer Traffic Level Upstream and Downstream Traffic Detected
Technology VDSL
Current 15Min Bin Retrains 0
Last 15Min Bin Retrains 0
Profile Name 0.128M-74M Downstream, Retransmission Low - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off
Time Stamp 2017-12-01T20:45:00
Parameters MIN MAX AVG
Down Stream Line Rate 73.9 Mbps 73.9 Mbps 73.9 Mbps
Up Stream Line Rate 19.9 Mbps 19.9 Mbps 19.9 Mbps
Up Time 900.0 Sec 900.0 Sec 900.0 Sec
Retrains 0.0 0.0 0.0
Current and Last 15 Minute Bin Performance
Parameters Last Traffic Count(Upto 15 mins) Current Traffic Count(Upto 15 mins)
Start Time Stamp 2017-12-02T11:30:06Z 2017-12-02T11:45:06Z
Ingress Code Violation 0 0
Egress Code Violation 0 0
Errored Seconds 0 0
Severely Errored Seconds 0 0
Unavailable Seconds 0 0
Kind regards,
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So what? If you repeatedly contact them, sooner or later you'll contact someone who doesn't have a clue. Or someone who just makes a mistake.
Perhaps you could cap your own bandwidth to say 50Mb for a couple of weeks and see if that gets rid of the banding sooner than doing nothing?
Or if you just want other ways to annoy Plusnet before you leave, perhaps you could max out your line 24/7 to use up as much bandwidth as possible.
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I am going to place an order with AAISP Home: 1 400GB as a new line and fibre 80/20 for my 2nd room next week and find out if the line is sync at 80/20 while my PN is 74/20 - this one I will put a cease on it. And use AAISP instead on the new line.
PN say I will stay at 74Meg for longer now as DLM will not put me back on 80Meg because PN say there isn't no banding on any fibre, only on BTw with ADSL/ADSL2+. Fibre isn't on any banding, not on fibre that's what I being told by PN fault team. More likely they lying and put capped on my line 74Meg at PN end side not BT.
Now, got question to ask, is AAISP ran by BT network or TalkTalk Business network?
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Max why are you calling them? We have repeatedly told you there is nothing they can do. Your line is running between expected parameters, Openreach would not deem a fault and would likely end up making a charge.
You will be in exactly the same position no matter which ISP you are with, there is possibly only one ISP who I could think of whom may risk the charge, but alternatively I could image their head honcho being pretty frank and telling you facts straight.
Pestering them every day achieves nothing. I thought you said you were going to wait until after Christmas. You are getting obsessive over something which is not impacting the way you use your connection and you are only winding yourself up more.
Time for me to be frank too. I and others try our utmost to make info available. Often giving out info that is not known by the public. You have people like Eric & Tony & BE & Ron developing tools to help monitor lines to aid and diagnose genuine line faults. Be aware that sometimes Openreach and the ISPs do no like that this information is available to the general public because there are some who become obsessive to the point where they start shutting down on what they share because it achieves nothing other than additional work.
Some of us who have been around a long time may recall what happened with DMTtool and how a few people started tweaking without knowing what they were doing resulting in messing up their line and calling the ISP for assistance. There were actually documents out there in which BT/Openreach scorned DMTtool because of people abusing it.
Plusnet are one of the few ISPs I know who will run GEA tests if you ask. If you keep abusing them, and causing additional work by asking them to run these tests every day, then they may well withdraw this facility for all their customers. That is not fair.
Its no point blaming DLM - yes I agree banding is harsh - but at the end of the day you can't deny that it saw your line getting 80 resyncs in a very short time frame.
There is a need for DLM and all SPs around the globe using FTTC have some sort of DLM. If your line was flapping around then you'd be grateful for it.
As discussed, currently your line is running without any indication of a fault and is running well within the line estimates and there is no banding on the line.
The numbers within the line speed profile name are simply taken from the DLM speeds and on fibre the DLM simply reacts to the line performance rather than dictating the speeds the line is achieving.
This I am not happy with and I'll pass that on to someone.
Perhaps they looked at an old GEA test result as there's probably lots showing on your account... perhaps it was a novice rep... or perhaps they just said it to shut you up.. who knows?
Max... you REALLY need to stop pestering them every day.. its not good for your own health. I didn't want to have to do what happened over at TBB, but I too am beginning to get concerned that you are not listening to good advice.
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Warning - while you were typing 2 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
You're responding faster than I can type.
I am going to place an order with AAISP Home:
Okay.. if you can afford a new line cost ... the additional subs.. and losing your PN referrals.. then go do it.
Now, got question to ask, is AAISP ran by BT network or TalkTalk Business network?
Bangs head on the desk. You really have not taken in anything what we are saying. This is Openreach DLM.
Doesnt matter if line is BTw or TTB its still the same DLM. Although I believe TTB use Standard rather than Speed for the Stability Level Profile (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM.htm#dlm_stability_level). :'(
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@kitz Fair enough. I have to accepting 74Meg end of. Just look forward to xmas on my OWN and yes it so depression and anxiety mental illness of my problem ongoing because all this DLM and other got FTTP 330/30 stressed me out. But, I have to LEARN forget fibre for now. I think I better stop looking up stats every five minutes even in bed too checking my mobile VDSL2 stats see if DLM has changed or not.
I better think of do something else away from Fibre. God help me get better. :( MrSaffron - oh god, I hate him. He doesn't care of my mental illness stress and instead BANNED me for good.
Wish I could go away on holiday for a month do me good but no one to go with me on holiday cos they sick of tired of me talk about fibre or DLM at all times.
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MrSaffron banned you for your own good. He's concerned for your mental health and advised you to visit your GP.
You ASKED him to ban you. Then you created a new account within 30 minutes.
Why are you stressed out that others have FTTP 330/30?
You don't get stressed that the neighbours have a bigger house, or a faster car. You don't get stressed that the next town over has a better bus service.
Your internet works. You get a higher sync than most. Your close enough to your cabinet that when G.Fast comes you will benefit from it. You live in a part of the country where you have extremely low pings. I'm lucky if I get sub 20ms pings here in Central Scotland. Your VERY fortunate with regards to the broadband available to you.
There are many on these forums who are trying to run a business and a family with few Mb on ADSL. Some are forced to pay extortionate amounts for multiple ADSL lines bonded together. How petty do you think you look to them complaining about your 74Mb that you don't even use/need.
I recommend you stop monitoring your stats and use the broadband for what it's meant for. Stop blaming Plusnet, you would have the same problem if it was AAISP or any other OpenReach FTTC provider.
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As promised I've reported the duff info you were told by one of the PN reps. But in all fairness you have pestered them far more than any other normal customer would and it is possible you got someone inexperienced rather than someone outright lying as you claimed.
I wish you all the best max and sorry that you are not well. If you cant get out and about, can you perhaps go play a game or something to help distract you, there are plenty of free ones available... and judging from some of the facebook posts I see, they have plenty of free games that can become addictive.
I think there is nothing more that can be added right now so I'm best locking this thread.
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:( MrSaffron - oh god, I hate him. He doesn't care of my mental illness stress and instead BANNED me for good.
Max, I have overridden the lock on this thread to point out that Mr Saffron has only done what you requested and banned you for one year. He even posted a message asking the regulars at the TBB Forum to remind him, in twelve months time, to un-ban your account.