Kitz Forum
Announcements => News Articles => Topic started by: sevenlayermuddle on November 22, 2017, 12:36:29 AM
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https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/21/16687796/uber-cyberattack-data-breach-exposed-users-57-million
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Wow!
Security is really becoming a major issue. :'(
Over the past few years theres an awful lot of extremely large databases which have been breached. Some of these companies are organisations who are supposed to have full time IT teams looking after this data.
In view of the fact that this year alone there's only just been disclosure as to the full extent of the likes of Yahoo mail (BT/Sky) and Experion breaches makes you wonder how many more we havent heard of yet. To their credit whilst the TT breach was bad, at least they did come clean fairly soon and admit that there had been a loss of data.
The fact that Uber covered it up and paid the ransom is why hackers continue to do what they do :(
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Hi
I hope you don’t mind, as I do not want to take this off topic sorry
I think there will be more disclosures still to come
If you think back to the big outage of dns/ssl about a year ago or so, I thought then it was a measured attack to gain access to systems. It was never reported fully why the dns attack took place
Also, I think most companies who have their own it department(s), most do not look after fully their company it. It is mostly outsourced to third parties. We ourselves, look after some top 10 companies hosting needs, and not their it departments
I do believe the web developers have to take some responsibility for breaches. I used to be amazed when seeing a website not closing sessions but not now. There’s more but no time and wrong thread sorry
Divergence, weak passwords, poor routing/firewall control, employees and/or ex employees etc.... all are well known for data breaches. Never mind that their computers maybe infected (inc root kit).
Lastly, I have a file from around 10 years ago, a single file from a breached server, which this 1 very small file, gave full admin/root access to the whole server, and so easy to upload (does not need activating or installing), it just needs to be on a web hosting root level
This is just my thoughts though, so apologies if I’m wrong or posted wrongly. Please feel free to delete
Many thanks
John
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Getting back to Uber this seems to me to be another very valid reason why we should not roll over and allow Uber to operate in the UK. The company obviously cannot be trusted.
Stuart
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Getting back to Uber this seems to me to be another very valid reason why we should not roll over and allow Uber to operate in the UK. The company obviously cannot be trusted.
Stuart
I’d like to think that TFL would be allowed to take things like this into consideration, in judging whether Uber are fit & proper.
But I’m willing to bet Uber will produce clever arguments (or maybe daft arguments) that portray themselves as now whiter than white, and concoct obstacles to TFL’s process, maybe arguing “the servers were not located in London”, or “We have mended our ways”. >:(
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Maybe this is a stupid question. But I've not seen the answer pointed out to me when reading these kinds of stories.
Are these companies fined in any way?
If not, then I think its time these companies are held to account considering how valuable the data is.
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I am surprised how low the ransom was, 75k for a large global company as uber is a pittance.
Looking at how the data got accessed is pretty bad, some bad procedures in place within the company.
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Getting back to Uber this seems to me to be another very valid reason why we should not roll over and allow Uber to operate in the UK. The company obviously cannot be trusted.
Stuart
We should ban every company that has had a breach? Or are you letting your views on London's ripoff taxi's affect your view on this and uber have special treatment in terms of a punishment?
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We should ban every company that has had a breach? Or are you letting your views on London's ripoff taxi's affect your view on this and uber have special treatment in terms of a punishment?
No I am not suggesting that, we should however ban companies who have a breach and then behave like Uber did to cover it up and pay a ransom. Paying a ransom is plain stupid because you have no way of knowing whether or not you will get the data back or deleted. Covering it up for so long is in my view criminal and suggests that the company has policies bordering on criminal.
Keeping quiet on request from law enforcement for a while is acceptable if those agencies believe it would help to investigate but otherwise just come clean.
I have no problems with tech companies competing with others just so long as it is on a level playing field especially in terms of employee protection and protection of the public (in this case) etc but that's not what Uber are trying to do.
Stuart
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There might be times when paying a ransom might be tempting, such as the recent NHS Windows 7 ransomware. If a ransom could rescue precious data, I would understand, though not sure if it would be legal.
But in Uber’s case, integrity of the data does not seem to have been at risk. The ransom did not restore lost data, nor did it ensure that their customers’ data was safe. The only motivation for paying the ransom, as far as I can see, was to avoid regulators finding out, to protect their own reputation, even if that put customers at even greater risk.
A dreadful, truly dreadful, and deeply immoral, company imho. It genuinely baffles me and troubles me that they have such a loyal following, and that people continue to feed them cash via the taxi fares.
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I dont see how it even made a difference for hiding it, they could still hide it if they didnt pay the ransom unless of course the hackers threatened to make it public.
Uber should be fined a large sum not all for the breach, but for the contempt they showed in hiding it.
7LM people use the service as it outclasses its competition, the modern world people dont care about what is seen as moral and what not, they just look for the best service. Until something else comes along to match or better it, then people will continue to do so.
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7LM people use the service as it outclasses its competition, the modern world people dont care about what is seen as moral and what not, they just look for the best service. Until something else comes along to match or better it, then people will continue to do so.
I think that is a dreadful summery of modern society. Also I do not believe it outclasses the black cabs for service, reliability or security.
Stuart
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Oh it does, easily - You don't have to tell the driver where you're going, you don't have to pay the driver, you don't even tip the driver. It's all handled by the app.
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Oh it does, easily - You don't have to tell the driver where you're going, you don't have to pay the driver, you don't even tip the driver. It's all handled by the app.
In my view from years of experience of working in London it is far easier to step outside and hail a black cab and you can be absolutely sure you will go by the most appropriate route even if there is a traffic jam or road works as they know the roads so well having done the knowledge.
Stuart
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Much easier to use the app and get an Uber. No need to carry any money. The satnav avoids roadworks and traffic.
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I've never used Uber, and think they have made a short cut across a lot of regulations both in this country and others.
I think the main reason they have become popular is they have embraced the future. The taxi industry I think become complacent.
I know the one time I tried to hail a black cab on the street, everyone went past. I'm not big of playing up disability as I've been around disabled people all my life, so its 'normal' for me. But I can think of no other reason than that. At least with Uber you would be getting interaction instead of being totally blanked.
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The satnav avoids roadworks and traffic.
Satnavs are not infallible and I have seen folks get lost with them. For London you cant beat the Knowledge, and for outside London take a road map, it never fails.
Stuart
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A road map? in Manhattan? or any other city where Uber operates? I don't think so
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For my part, I’ve avoided suggesting that Uber should be banned everywhere, as there might be places that they are lesser than other evils.
But in London, it just seems so pointless. We have excellent drivers, The Knowledge, and purpose-designed vehicles that can deal with London traffic, manouverable enough to a turn on the proverbial sixpence. They also have priority traffic bus/taxi lanes that allow them to sneak past queues of Uber and other minicabs. London’s black cabs are, imho, the best taxi service I have ever encountered - not cheap, but worth every penny.
Worst was Washington DC. I got an taxi at the airport official rank, and asked him to take me to the Willard Intercontinental, a rather grand and famous hotel. He’d never heard of it, so I said it was just across the road from the entrance to the White House. He just shook his said, never heard of the White House either. Yet he was a licensed taxi driver. No surprise that Americans seem to take to alternatives, like Uber. :D
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Stuart its a free country and market, and hence your view is fine.
But looking at the numbers, large amounts of people disagree with you.
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Oh it does, easily - You don't have to tell the driver where you're going, you don't have to pay the driver, you don't even tip the driver. It's all handled by the app.
Agree with you.
Security ? - No need to carry cash or even a payment card on you. When I researched the number of taxi driver incidents earlier this year following my uber thread, the information I found suggested uber drivers were only a minority of known bad drivers in the UK. You and the driver are both tracked by GPS as well. Plus the uber system logs who is the driver and passenger for each and every journey, this makes it harder for a driver to do something and get away with it, so actively discourages bad behaviour.
Reliability - Not sure what he meant by this, but if he means drivers honouring jobs, then I can only really compare uber to my previous taxi service of which uber is more reliable.
Service - not much to say really, you dont have to stand out in the street hailing cabs, dont need to ring someone up, dont need cash lying around to pay driver, dont need to prebook in advance even at peak hours, its a on demand taxi service to pick up from your current location, booked online with fully automated payments. I had one bad experience a few weeks back where a driver cancelled my pickup and the new driver would have been late so I cancelled the new driver, I was then charged as if I had originally cancelled it, I went on the app and said he cancelled it and was instantly refunded.
If black cabs work the same way as yellow cabs in new york and black cabs in Leicester then they are a limited service, you need to find one to use it, In Leicester they parked in the city centre (special privileges) and outside the train station, but otherwise you never ever see one, so if you not in one of those 2 places you not even getting one. The atmosphere in the vehicle whenever I have used one is sour, you on the backseat behind a metal grating like police cars have, driver doesnt talk, no radio etc. They deliberately go to traffic jams when they exist so they can charge more on the meter as well I feel, so there is that distrust between the driver and passenger.
So you can see there is an argument for the other side as well as to why uber is superior, and many people in the UK do agree with me, hence the situation we have in london with black cabbies trying to get the competition banned as they unwilling to adapt to more modern practices.
If somehow the uber ban goes through, something will replace uber, the monopoly the black cabs have enjoyed is coming to and end I am afraid stuart.
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@Crysalis,
It may well be the case that individual Uber drivers happen to be great guys/gals, eager to provide a fantastic service. But even if that is true they are, perhaps unwittingly, supporting the profits of one of the most evil organisations of modern times (my personal opinion).
Re security... in order to use Uber, you have to sign up, right? And grant the App access to your location data? Surely you can see that signing up and providing personal data to a company like I regard Uber, is virtually guaranteed to be a security disaster? Even if not a data breach, there’ll be something awful in the small print of their T&C. Handing over a £10 note and saying “keep the change” is infinitely more secure.
The Black Cabs have always had competition, from what we used to call Minicabs, very similar to Uber. Minicabs in days gone by did serve a purpose, I have used them. As long as it is a fair and level playing field, I don’t think competition is any threat to London’s professional, licenced taxis.
I’m also not sure black cabs in the provincial towns bear any relation to London black cabs, in terms of driver qualifications, regulatory controls, or levels of service. They might be black and taxi shaped, but that does not make them London taxis. :)
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£10? When did you last take a black cab in LDN?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/uber/11902613/Proof-that-Uber-costs-less-than-black-cabs.html
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£10? When did you last take a black cab in LDN?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/uber/11902613/Proof-that-Uber-costs-less-than-black-cabs.html
From The Telegraph...
A one-mile journey in an Uber taxi can be almost one-and-a-half times cheaper than taking a black cab, according to industry figures that support the app's battle against new regulations in London.
Hmm. If they were ‘half cheaper’ their fares would be 50% of black cabs. It follows, if they were ‘one times cheaper’, they would be free. But ‘one and a half times cheaper’, does that mean Uber pay me for travelling with them? Might be tempted, after all. :D
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Clearly journalists are not very good at maths :)
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:)
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I've just had a brief look at that telegraph article, and it's clear TFL's proposals are aimed at making it harder for Uber to operate, therefore protecting black cabs, nothing about protecting drivers or passengers, at least not in that article.
I very rarely use a taxi, but I will give Uber a go next time I do, I like the way it works with the app, but they clearly need to improve the way they run the company.
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I have to say using Uber abroad on holiday in the USA faves us a much better service and experience than taxi cabs.
The knowledge you are being tracked makes a big difference to our feeling of security.
Yes Uber have corporate issues to sort out; I’ll wager as do do a lot more well known companies.
And I suspect many of the local cab companies need more are not bereft of smaller issues.
There is a bigger picture about the gig economy to consider of course.
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Londn cabs aside...
Where I live, village hamlet in middle of nowhere, the only taxi is a local guy in the next village, with a couple of cars. Needs to be booked day or two in advance, but you get used to that. I suspect he makes most of his living from lucrative airport runs, but he’s happy to do local runs too if he’s available.
Seems to be under competition lately, from web-based hirers (no Uber yet), I hope he doesn’t suffer. People coming to visit will often use their favourite online booking service to get a taxi from the airport, rather than take my advice to let me book the local guy. It usually ends badly, as the Sat Nav announces “you have arrived” as soon as you enter the postcode area, which is huge. Houses are widely dispersed and have names, not numbers, so they end up cruising past every house, up and down every branch in the lane, trying to find the name. The local guy, of course, just knows all the house names. :)
For cost, on longer airport runs, the web-based vs local taxi are similar, circa £90. But to pick me up and drive to nearest railway station, the local guy wins out hugely - £6 for local guy, vs £20 for web.
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Aside from the dubious practices - the basic thing is we are down to pricing. Think of it like broadband TT v AAISP if you like when it comes to pricing. When it comes to cheap then usually corners are cut somewhere.
I watched a tv program years ago, the cameras followed a guy who was learning the knowledge. This guy was bombing around London on a moped trying to get experience and know the roads and major hotels/locations/attractions. It took him years. In fact just checked it takes on average 3-4 years to pass the knowledge.
So think of it this way - you speak to staff at AAISP then usually they will have spent years getting qualifications in computing and they're going to have a good idea of what you are talking about. Phone up TalkTalk and you get an Indian call centre following a script.
Back to taxi's drivers. Someone spent years learning their trade - v- someone who wasn't even guaranteed a minimum wage following a sat nav.
It's pretty well known that driving for uber is a step up from being on the dole and the only people getting rich are Uber themselves who don't give 2 hoots about their employee conditions and often exploit them.
So yes I can understand the black cabbies concerns.. they have to live in london and have families to feed - they should be entitled to earn a decent living sufficient not to be rich, but to earn a working class wage for working outside of normal working hours and something which took years to qualify for.
In some respects we appear to be going backwards, so many jobs are now minimum wage/zero contract. We have record numbers of people relying on food banks or gov top-ups. Where have all the 9-5 jobs gone? We are expected to work much longer hours and have little family time. The gap between the haves and have nots is increasing and more people finding themselves in the have not bracket. Many kids now spend years getting a degree, finding themselves in many years of debt and no guarantee of a job. :(
I personally know a young lad 4yrs at uni studying forensic science and some basic law wanting to do the job that his father/grandfather etc had been in for years. Came out with a 2.1 and having to take a job that could hardly support his living expenses. In the end he jacked it in and went working for Aldi as trainee manager which paid more, but still insufficient to be able to get a home of his own. For the past year or so he's been living in NZ doing a job that he trained for. He is happy and paid a decent living wage. His younger brother is also following his footsteps and gone over there now that he has qualified. I really do feel sorry for some of todays kids.
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Well said Kitz.... I think we are indeed going backwards and I worry for my grandkids the oldest of whom is 14. What kind of world are we passing on to them. We try to instill into them the need for getting a good education but these days it seems to do no good at all. I think sometimes the best ting to do is to do an apprenticeship to be either a self employed plumber or sparks and not bother with higher education.
Stuart
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The problem with education is that it's out of date now and not suitable for our post-industrial age.
The 3 R's was all well and good for the British Empire but these days our jobs are all under threat from robotics, AI and disruption.
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In some ways I agree that education is not as good as it should be but probably for different reasons. Firstly I was watching a program the other day where a young man of around mid to late 20's had never heard of Charles Dickens and he was taking part in a program where the episode in question was being filmed in Bleak House (Broadstairs) :o I also am always quite amazed that people cannot do simple mental arithmetic, spelling especially on social media is atrocious. Yes it all matters, a good basic education is required as well as the more advanced stuff for science and engineering.
Stuart
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Kitz I understand the view you coming from, and I personally dont like the way things are going with costs and wages, but it is what it is, we are a capitalist country.
The only rights people have in this country to wages is the minimum wage, and thats it, as long as cabbies get more then that then they have no legal argument on that basis, a moral one maybe, but not legal.
Where i disagree is the idea that black cabs are a better service, and people only flock down to uber for ££ and no other reason, I think its already been explained in both threads there is other reasons to use uber aside from cost. also uber's surge charging makes them more expensive than competitors at times, but they still get the business at those prices.
I find myself agreeing with ronski that the prime reason for the actions in london seem to be to protect the livelyhood of the black cab drivers rather than concerns for so called safety. The black cab drivers may find if they setup their own app, GPS tracking, booking service, and stop using meters and move to pre announced pricing then they may fare much better, even if they charge similar prices to what they do now. They just need to adapt. This is coming across from them as trying to protect a status quo and preventing an industry from modernising. There will always be people who continue to use their services as is, generally I see their prime market as affluent people who need to move around different parts of london for their work and are ok with hailing cabs. The customers they in danger of losing is those not so affluent and like the convenience of pre booking and paying on phone.
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The black cab drivers may find if they setup their own app, GPS tracking, booking service, and stop using meters and move to pre announced pricing then they may fare much better, even if they charge similar prices to what they do now. They just need to adapt.
There's already several apps for London Blackcabs
http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/142333-best-taxi-apps-uber-alternatives-to-get-you-a-cab-in-london
I dont think that mentions the one I was thinking of, whereby blackcabs can bid against mini-cabs for fares at a fixed price.
we are a capitalist country.
The way things are going, soon everything will be held by just a few corporations in each sector. As above we appear to be going backwards when it comes to maintaining living standards.
The employment situation means that employers can get away with min wages and zero hour contracts. (note minimum wage != living wage for man with family).
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I was actually brought up in Glasgow, a council estate, or ‘corporation scheme’, as known in these days. Glasgow black cabs, unlike many provincial towns, did and still do actually mimic the London service, with a single owners association, a ‘Knowledge’ test, and other tight regulations.
Our estate’s taxi rank was ahead of its time, had its own App, mid 1960s. It took the form of a telephone hanging on a pole at the taxi rank. If there was no taxi present, you got to call one for free. :)
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This is the end game of capitalism. You have the money drawing towards a few entities, and for that to happen there "has" to be losers as there is only so much money. Without injection of money it would collapse a long time ago, but instead money gets injected via loans (credit) and it keeps on going. The tax and social security system also keeps things ticking over as well just about.
Now i dont think the black cabs are about to go out of existence, but with a major new player they will obviously lose customers, some drivers as a result may quit, and income levels may drop, but it is what it is. The taxi service is evolving. If you manipulate things by banning companies and so forth, you are moving away from a free market which is what the UK is supposed to be about.
A lot of people already have to get by on min wage, zero hours and so on, I dont know why taxi drivers would be exempt from this, if you going to stop these kind of practices, it needs to be done across all types of work, not just for taxi drivers. Change employment laws etc. to fix it. Wont be fixed by a tory government tho.
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The black cab drivers may find if they setup their own app, GPS tracking, booking service, and stop using meters and move to pre announced pricing then they may fare much better, even if they charge similar prices to what they do now.
Here you go, this is the one I was thinking of earlier but couldnt recall it's name at the time. - cab:app - Invented by a London taxi driver and launched in 2011
You can see from this vid that it already does practically all you said they need to do.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVv9ivJwz0s[/youtube]
Blackpool was the 2nd town in the UK (outside of London) where our Hackney cabs have been using cab:app since 2012. (Uber came to the UK in 2012 btw)
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thanks, I will check the app to see how good it is.
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A lot of people already have to get by on min wage, zero hours and so on, I dont know why taxi drivers would be exempt from this, if you going to stop these kind of practices, it needs to be done across all types of work, not just for taxi drivers. Change employment laws etc. to fix it. Wont be fixed by a tory government tho.
It really shouldn't be like that.. and we shouldnt think like that. As I said above minimum wage is not a living wage for anyone to support a family.
Yes it needs to be fixed across all types of work and no the Tories wont fix it because it doesn't affect them. More and more employers are getting away with paying min wage and zero hour contracts. Min wage should be for those who have no trade, experience or professional qualifications... not for those who have spent years learning a trade or getting qualifications. It's why I said we are going backwards :'(
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Sadly app is broken for me.
On the registration screen, it asks if I want to use a promo code, since I dont have one I select no, but then nothing happens. It tries to work if I put something in the promo box but rejects the code due to it been invalid and wont proceed that way either.
--edit--
Ok registered now after entering a valid promo code.
I see it has options to prebook (which uber does not), I will try this out next time i need a taxi to give it a go and compare to uber.
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I see it has options to prebook (which uber does not)
Not wanting to promote uber but you can pre-book journeys upto a month in advance using the app.
For me, what seems to be missing in most discussions about Uber/taxis in London is the use of minicabs here - for many black cabs in London have either always been too expensive (not their fault as they don't set the prices) or they have lived outside central london limiting their access to being able to hail a black cab.
With a minicab, you just call them and they come to your location and take you where you wanted to go for a fixed fare. I believe there are now several minicab apps in London as well. Minicabs have filled the role Uber is now also filling for years.
Black taxi drivers have had a tough time of it for years - before Uber you had firms like Addison Lee who took a lot of company travel accounts for instance..
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Who sets the prices for the black cabs if not themselves?
Does who set the prices take a cut? and if yes would that be a factor in the possible banning of the competition with that revenue stream threatened?
Minicabs basically sound like a normal prebook taxi service, you book in advance, fare is fixed.
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I will try this out next time i need a taxi to give it a go and compare to uber.
I think there is also another app out which allows mini cabs and black cabs to compete on pricing. - In fact Im certain that there is.. but it may be more localised to certain towns.
I don't use taxis that much these days and if I do I use the local cab firm as they are practically around the corner and usually here within a couple of mins - 5 at most.
This is why I don't personally have any of the apps... but a few people I know use them if their journey starts on the other side of the B'pl boundary.
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Who sets the prices for the black cabs if not themselves?
Does who set the prices take a cut?
The fares (https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/taxis-and-minicabs/taxi-fares/tariffs) for Black Cabs are set by TfL/the Mayor for London. They won't be taking a cut but are the regulator.
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Despite their horrendous employment practices Uber are losing money hand over fist to try and gain market share and crowd out other operators in their markets.
Naturally, once they've done so their prices can rise accordingly. In fact that's the entire business model.
The acceptance of this as part of a race to the bottom is depressing.
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They not managing their costs very well then, here they are maybe 10-20% cheaper on average to the competition, which isnt a lot, but should clearly have lower operating costs as they have no switchboard to run and drivers are working as self employed reducing their employment costs. When you take surge pricing into account that average price goes in the other direction.
I suppose the key factor is tho what is their share of the revenue like compared to what a traditional cab service takes. Drivers have told me this before in past conversations with them but I cannot remember what they told me now.
This article suggests when looked at from a city to city basis, in established areas uber is profitable, but globally they losing money as their expenditure is on marketing, development etc. to expand into new areas.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/ubers-revenue-profit-and-loss-2015-8
newer article here
http://uk.businessinsider.com/uber-leaked-finances-accounts-revenues-profits-2017-2
This quote suggests the cut is 20% which seems low.
Uber's net revenue per quarter looks very positive. Net revenue is the cut Uber takes on each ride, which is roughly 20%
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Taxify has also been stopped from operating in London.
"Taxify has done everything in its power to comply with the local regulations, but is faced by aggression from TfL,"
https://www.cnet.com/uk/news/uber-rival-taxify-forced-to-suspend-operations-in-london/
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Taxify has also been stopped from operating in London.
That has really cheered me up.
I wish I could say I was surprised, or shocked, that Taxify would launch a service without all the correct licenses. But in truth it’s par for the course these days, nobody seems to give a damn about rules and regulations.
Full marks to TFL for bucking the trend, and actually asking people to comply. :)
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its still coming across as just protecting a status quo if other rivals are also been stopped
since noone answered when back on pc i will check if the authority takes a cut off black cab fares
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I think you’ll find rules and regulations are rigorously enforced for black cabs too, as well as minicabs and other private hire.
I’ve not researched it, so can’t cite examples, but willing to bet TFL have taken enforcement action over lots of other non conformant minicabs, private hire, and black cab operators too, over the years. I’m sure they’re not just picking on Uber or Taxify.
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How often do you hear of companies been banned to operate in the uk, I am not talking about minor enforcement like applying fines, I am talking about banning a company from operating. If you think there is nothing unusual going on here I dont know what to say.
Ok so its been revealed here that the prices the black cabs charge is set by another entity, so I did some research.
So the tfL regulates minimum prices. Considering the free market UK this is very heavy handed from a regulator compared to other sectors.
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/taxis-and-minicabs/taxi-fares/tariffs
But is there any revenue sharing going on?
I couldnt find any information to support this, so it seems the tfl takes no cut from revenues of black taxis.
However I have found evidence that the tfl as part of the local authority has a vested interest in making things work for black cab drivers.
42million investment in them as said here
http://www.cityam.com/269333/sadiq-khan-wants-pay-black-taxi-drivers-cabbies-42m-scrap
Money spent to add more black cab taxi lanes, more taxi ranks, and a 5k grant available to black cab drivers, total cost not revealed.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/sadiq-khan-plans-100-new-london-taxi-ranks-to-help-black-cab-drivers-compete-with-uber-a3343316.html
I wonder how many other private entities enjoy this kind of LA/state support.
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@Chrysalis,
You clearly have strong opinions. May I ask, do you actually live in London, or use london transport often?
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No but I have strong opinion on things like state assistance to private companies.
This whole saga just seems dodgy to me.
London is still part of the UK, it shouldnt have its own special laws and accepted practices.
The mayor of London has openly admitted to the press he is helping one private entity over another which is just completely bizarre as we have an open free market.
If I was the uber legal representative, an option would be to tell the high court that the tfl is not a unbiased regulator as its part of a authority that has invested in its competitor.
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Me - I don’t live in London either, but I visit a few times a year, usually using trains & the underground. On average, I probably use a London black cab, about 2 or 3 times a year. I’ll also use a greater London Minicab, maybe once every year or three.
Those personal experiences form the basis of my own opinions of London Taxis.
All opinions are valid of course. :)
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How often do you hear of companies been banned to operate in the uk, I am not talking about minor enforcement like applying fines, I am talking about banning a company from operating. If you think there is nothing unusual going on here I dont know what to say.
Companies are prohibited from doing all sorts of things without an appropriate licence in the UK and regulators take action to ensure that licence conditions are being followed/enforced.
Uber has not been banned from operating in the UK - its issue is specifically in London which has a different regulatory regime than elsewhere in the country - and its much more ancient:
The laws governing London’s taxi trade go back nearly four centuries. Originally, regulation was in the hands of the City of London. In 1654, Oliver Cromwell authorised the founding of The Fellowship of Hackney Coachmen, but he disbanded it in 1657 because it became too powerful. Licensing was reformed in 1694 and London’s cabs have been continuously licensed since then, initially through the City of London and later through Parliament. In 1843, the Home Office took control and devolved authority to the Metropolitan Police who, through the Public Carriage Office governed the trade until 2000. Control is now in the hands of Transport for London, a part of the Greater London Authority.
So the tfL regulates minimum prices. Considering the free market UK this is very heavy handed from a regulator compared to other sectors.
TfL sets the prices for black cabs in London - not the minimum prices - the prices full stop. They also control all other aspects of black cabs, from ensuring drivers are qualified/have passed the knowledge, the type/design of taxi they can drive and even the payment methods they have to accept.
I wonder how many other private entities enjoy this kind of LA/state support.
Again, lots of firms in the UK get LA/state support in various ways.
The links you have posted re: phasing out diesel black cabs is to do with the fact that TfL have told taxi drivers to phase them out (to improve air quality) and they will not allow any new diesel cabs from Jan 18. This also means all the old ones now need to be scrapped rather than being sold on.. and I believe comes only a few years after black cab drivers were actively encouraged to get the diesel versions..
With respect, its clear you don't live in London :)
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Wasn't some of the concerns about taxify that they were "employing" drivers who couldnt even speak English?
Just tried to do a little digging on how much Uber drivers in the really earn. It appears Uber take 25%. Bearing in mind the driver is also responsible for Insurance, Petrol, Maintenance, depreciation etc, it seems to leave the driver with very little in their pocket.
Theres some independant estimates here (https://www.planinsurance.co.uk/blog/much-uber-driver-really-earn-per-hour/).. and Glass Door (https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Hourly-Pay/Uber-Uber-Driver-Hourly-Pay-E575263_D_KO5,16.htm) from drivers themselves report £6.75 per hour.
Interesting quote in that report
This suggests that if a product or service is cheap and convenient enough, the majority of consumers are willing to turn a blind eye and chose to ignore the associated negative connotations.
Could it be that in the consumer’s mind it is a victim-less crime, even though the potential victim is sat right in front of them, bleary eyed after a long, tough shift?
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Me - I don’t live in London either, but I visit a few times a year, usually using trains & the underground. On average, I probably use a London black cab, about 2 or 3 times a year. I’ll also use a greater London Minicab, maybe once every year or three.
Those personal experiences form the basis of my own opinions of London Taxis.
All opinions are valid of course. :)
I would have much less of an issue if the mayor was not assisting part of the free market against another part of the free market and providing large cash subsidies. Without this happening the TFL actions looked dubious but was all speculation, now I know what the mayor has been doing it has gone from dubious to just dodgy.
Its a bit easier to have higher standards when you getting a 42 million cash injection and other forms of favourable treatment, as well as an excuse for pricing "we have to boss, its the regulator who sets it".
The safety and other aspects is just about public manipulation, reasons have to be found to justify what they doing and these reasons have to be popular with the public. They hardly going to say we looking to ban uber because our black cab taxi drivers dont like the idea of losing work and the prospect of charging less.
Kitz you seem to be of the impression that the only reason people use uber is pricing, I dont know why you still have that impression after everything that has been posted. Uber isnt that much cheaper except in certain cases. Uber is a lot cheaper on things like airport runs, but journeys within the city they are only a bit cheaper. I also dont know what kind of salary you are used to, but £6.75 an hour whilst considered low by todays standards can still easily be lived on. Different parts of the population have different expectations of what is acceptable income, and much of that of course is also down to lifestyle of said person. Most uber drivers, I have used are not of white british origin, which I think is telling, as I know from various places I have worked in Leicester that people from different origins have very different expectations of what is an acceptable wage as well as working hours, which of course is a big part of the immigration debates that go on. Some people e.g. might be fine with living in shared accommodation which reduces living costs, they may also be fine working longer hours. I expect many people may even only use uber as a second job so they have another income as well. If we had a situation where uber was the only service in town and this was the only option for a driver, then yes its a problem, but its not, there is competition and its a free market. If uber was as bad as people claim it to be in terms of working conditions, they would have no drivers.
Drivers who I have spoken to have voluntarily left private hire firms to work for uber, citing these benefits.
1 - payment is guaranteed 'almost' as its automated digital payment. Non payment in legacy taxi services is quite high, higher than many may think, especially for things like night time city work.
2 - customers can tip drivers, whilst this can happen on legacy services, according to drivers I spoke to its much more frequent with uber.
3 - customers and drivers can communicate directly, so if one cannot find the other they can resolve it instead of a cancelled pick up which does neither a favour.
4 - customers can see which direction the taxi is coming from and be on the right side of the road, avoiding things like u-turns to pick customers up.
5 - drivers can pick a pickup close to where they just dropped off, whilst with firms this often doesnt happen. So the cost in between journeys is a lot less, I think this one is a major issue actually, as I know from experience how bad existing firms can work, they so inefficient with routing drivers between customers.
I have also spoken to drivers where the taxi firms they previously worked for would tell them if they refused to do long shifts, they would be let go, they would get docked money for been late on pickups, forced to go out when work needed on vehicles, and no compensation if customer either didnt pay or cancelled pickup when they on their way. Employment conditions based on what I have been told are worser when driving for a firm instead of uber.
The arguments about wages just seem really detached from reality, perhaps looking at it from an affluent perspective.
Now we have talk about consumers turning a blind eye to so called bad practices, but I have observe on here a blind eye is been turned to state manipulation of a market.
Exceptions been ronski and black sheep who seemed to have seen it for what it is.
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I do tend to agree with chrysalis, I think tfl is protecting black cabs. A lot of people have money problems because they can't manage money and live beyond their means.
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Specifically in London, where black cabs are available, I really can’t see any reason other than cost that people would choose a minicab like Uber...
Black cabs are spacious, purpose designed vehicles, well laid out for their passengers. I’ve often ordered a minicab for four people, only to find us squeezed into a tiny saloon car, three in the back with knees tucked up under their chins.
Black cabs can be relied on to be in the excellent condition, and scrupulously clean.
You don’t have to worry about agreeing a pick-up point. You just walk up to one parked at a taxi rank, or you stand by the roadside and wave at the next one that passes.
You know exactly how much the journey is costing, the meter is prominently displayed.
The driver has passed The Knowledge so he will get you there - though most use sat navs too, these days. He’ll probably have other useful advice based on past experience, like offering to drop you at a different entrance to a railway station, or hotel, if it avoids traffic.
You can depend on the drivers to speak good English. Every london cabbie I have used, regardless of race, speaks perfect english. If travelling alone, many are able to enhance the experience with good conversation, the gift of the gab that comes from years in the job.
...These benefits do not generally apply to black cabs in my nearby town, out in the shires. There, black cabs are London cast-offs, a bit crappy, beat up, and driven by often incoherent, non english-speaking immigrants, completely dependent on sat navs. It is solely London Black Cabs that I consider to be such a treasure, hence my support for tfl. Maybe its a lack of awareness of the specific benefits in London, that is causing disagreement?
In relation to the various petitions Uber have launched against tfl, I wonder how many signatories are actually users, or have access to London cabs? I wonder how many are even Brits?
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Kitz you seem to be of the impression that the only reason people use uber is pricing, I dont know why you still have that impression after everything that has been posted.
No... my input on this is I think its wrong that the people who do the hard work get paid a pittance whilst the people at the top get fat. Yes perhaps thats the way of the world as you said, but I object to companies who exploit their workers on this way. I've no objection to Uber or anyone entering the market.. except when it comes at a cost and dubious working practices.
I haven't looked in depth at what subsidies they are supposed to get from TFL, but at first glance all those links seem to be centred around scrappage of old cabs >10 yr old to make for a cleaner environment. A few years back ANYONE with a car >10yrs old would get a scrappage allowance of £2k.
There's also a more recent scrappage scheme for 7 y/o diesel whereby popular car makes (ie Ford, VW, Toyata etc etc etc) can get up to an 8k scrappage allowance - its about trying to reduce pollution.
I also dont know what kind of salary you are used to, but £6.75 an hour whilst considered low by todays standards can still easily be lived on.
I really don't see how you can deem £6.75 per hour to be easily liveable on for a working man. For one its below minimum wage! Its <£14k per annum for a 40hr week.
Have you ever had to pay a mortgage? Have you have any idea of the price for London rent? Have you ever had to pay such things as Council Tax, Utility Bills. Have you ever had to feed and clothe children?
The fact you think £6.75 is easily liveable on implies that you have absolutely no idea how hard it is to bring up a family as a working man or do any of these thing :(
For starters a one bed flat in London is circa £200 pw. Even up north you are unlikely to get a 2 bed house for under £120 pw.
So who is going to be picking up the tab on any shortfalls? They're going to have to be claiming Housing Benefit, council tax reductions, free prescriptions, free school meals. They wont be paying tax (or very little tax) at this rate. They won't be paying NI.
Uber wont be paying NI for emplyees nor responsible for taxation or holiday pay or pensions... yet they get their 25% cut.
The broader picture is it then takes away work from those who are trying to earn a standard living wage.
Having a country whereby workers are having to rely on state subsidies and not paying back in such things as Income Tax, NI and Council Tax does not make for a good economy. :(
Most uber drivers, I have used are not of white british origin, which I think is telling,
Exactly.
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Specifically in London, where black cabs are available, I really can’t see any reason other than cost that people would choose a minicab like Uber...
You don’t have to worry about agreeing a pick-up point. You just walk up to one parked at a taxi rank, or you stand by the roadside and wave at the next one that passes.
You just don't get it. If you're in an area of London where there are no black cabs passing, you can't get one.
With Uber you hail one using the app on your smartphone wherever you are, it turns up within minutes and you just get in. You don't tell the driver where you're going, you don't pay the driver. At your destination, you just get out.
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I thought thats what cab:app (http://www.londontaxitrade.co.uk/cab-app/) was supposed to do? It was released before Uber even came to the UK.
We've had cab:app here for black cabs since 2012. London has had it since 2011.
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Sorry, never heard of it. I've used Uber in London, NYC and LA though.
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You just don't get it. If you're in an area of London where there are no black cabs passing, you can't get one.
Did you consider the possibility that is what I meant by the words “where black cabs are available”? :D
If an area is not covered by Black Cabs then of course, I’ll consider minicab/private hire, such as Uber. But I’d simply call the office and book one. No way would I resort to an App that required location access.
I do allow my location to be tracked by a tiny number of close friends and relatives. Apple can track me too, it’s a price worth paying for the convenience. But nothing is likely to ever convince me that a taxi operator deserves the same level of trust...
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People who use Facebook obviously don’t share your concerns. Do any of your trusted friends and relatives use Facebook?
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>> People who use Facebook obviously don’t share your concerns.
Facebook thinks I live in either in Sheffield or Cresswell. I didn't give it any info.. it just picks that up from natgeo on my IP and I'll let it continue to think that as I've never been to Creswell in my life :)
Where you're logged in
Windows PC
Windows PC · Creswell, United KingdomFirefox · Active now
Android Tablet
Samsung Galaxy Tab S2 9.7 · Creswell, United KingdomFacebook app · 26 November at 05:20
Samsung Galaxy S5 Neo · Creswell, United KingdomFacebook app · 25 November at 09:39
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People who use Facebook obviously don’t share your concerns. Do any of your trusted friends and relatives use Facebook?
Nope, for obvious security reasons.
Google neither. I do use google.com for search, which I am sure they abuse, but I’d never leave a login active, nor grant any Google App access to location data.
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Nope, for obvious security reasons
Sorry, need to qualify that. Don’t use facebook myself, but trusted friends might. Is that a risk that I am overlooking?
Genuinely interested.
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No... my input on this is I think its wrong that the people who do the hard work get paid a pittance whilst the people at the top get fat.
I certainly agree with that, they may have the brains but the people with the brawn should get paid a fair wage, how you work out what a fair wage is I don't know.
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Nope, for obvious security reasons.
Google neither. I do use google.com for search, which I am sure they abuse, but I’d never leave a login active, nor grant any Google App access to location data.
Google hasn't 'got me'.. although I have heard [unsubstantiated] rumours about them picking up router IP's when mapping. >:(
There is one organisation that has and that's Amazon - because I use them a lot for deliveries and am on a static IP.
Also I use Alexa.. which gives me local news and weather. Not much I can do about that. :( My devices are registered to me at this address.
Alexa though, has made my life soooo much easier right now and because of that I guess I just have to say sod it and think of well Ive nothing to hide. :-\
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I don’t worry tooooo much about organisations that track my home IP, on services used by home PC or tablet. My IP is static, but all they know is that I live where I live, and even then only to a wide margin of error, and even then the IP databases seem to be hugely inaccurate.
The thing that sends a shiver down my spine is Apps that want access to location on my phone. That will be accurate GPS data, to within a few yards, potentially updated in real time with every move I make. I don’t totally disallow location access, a few Apps have it. Network Rail App, for example, I alllow location access. But I am very very choosy and based on Uber’s track record, such as the events that spawned this thread, not a chance.
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Maybe read Hut 6 by Gordon Welchman. He thought the war was over ???
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I really don't see how you can deem £6.75 per hour to be easily liveable on for a working man. For one its below minimum wage! Its <£14k per annum for a 40hr week.
Have you ever had to pay a mortgage? Have you have any idea of the price for London rent? Have you ever had to pay such things as Council Tax, Utility Bills. Have you ever had to feed and clothe children?
The fact you think £6.75 is easily liveable on implies that you have absolutely no idea how hard it is to bring up a family as a working man or do any of these thing :(
For starters a one bed flat in London is circa £200 pw. Even up north you are unlikely to get a 2 bed house for under £120 pw.
So who is going to be picking up the tab on any shortfalls? They're going to have to be claiming Housing Benefit, council tax reductions, free prescriptions, free school meals. They wont be paying tax (or very little tax) at this rate. They won't be paying NI.
Uber wont be paying NI for emplyees nor responsible for taxation or holiday pay or pensions... yet they get their 25% cut.
The broader picture is it then takes away work from those who are trying to earn a standard living wage.
Having a country whereby workers are having to rely on state subsidies and not paying back in such things as Income Tax, NI and Council Tax does not make for a good economy. :(
The final sentence in the above paragraph reminded me of an interesting graphic I came across a year ago...
It breaks the UK household incomes across 10 deciles, and for each group shows the related income -vs- tax -vs- benefits. It kinda shocked me... You need to get a household "original income" up into the 7th decile before the tax outweighs the benefits. A household (not personal) income of around £35k !!!
From that graphic, an "original income" of £14k would be between the 3rd and 4th decile, and would be associated with benefits of a similar total.
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Hospital appointment this Thursday so will try cab:app out for the return journey, to get there I will still use uber as I dont want to experiment and possibly miss my appointment.
To 7LM, sorry standing out hailing a taxi or walking to a taxi rank is too much inconvenience for some of us, or not even possible due to health issues. I think you undervalue the benefits of the app, and also does a meter tell you the "final" cost "before" the journey has ended? How does one know a black cab will be available at any given moment, have you 100% of the time got one quickly (within say 5 minutes) doing what you said? The basis of your argument seems to be you like the "higher class" service, thats fine if you affluent and also dont mind the downsides of hailing cabs etc., but not everyone cares about what you said, they can be even considered completely irrelevant. You have spent time trying to explain why that service is better for you, but not why choice should be removed from consumers. I am pretty sure it wouldnt be too hard for people to find health and safety issues with black cab services, and are black cab drivers also self employed? meaning their employment rights are not a whole lot different to uber drivers. So no guaranteed hours or pay, and no paid holidays.
There is a place for black cabs which is great, I got no issue with them still offering a service, my issue is them trying to remove consumer choice, because for some people uber is the preffered option.
To kitz, we can quickly put things in perspective on the £6.75 an hour to simply say some people have to live on 10k a year and thats including benefit topup to income, to those people 6.75 an hour 40 hours a week would be dreamland, thats the basis of me saying its very manageable, yes luxuries would be sparse, life wouldnt be too comfortable, but you can certainly feed yourself and find shelter. I think wages should be high enough to the point that things like tax credits shouldnt be a thing, but thats fixed by changing employment laws, not state manipulation of a market. The wrong approach is been taken here.
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I certainly agree with that, they may have the brains but the people with the brawn should get paid a fair wage, how you work out what a fair wage is I don't know.
I think most agree, but this is embedded all over capitalism across the majority of entities. If you own a business you get the perks but also have the risk, if you are a CEO you get paid a lot for "thinking" and "managing" people, those grunt workers can get paid a small amount for doing very demanding work, it is how the world is, it sucks and its a reason why I work for myself now. Uber drivers in Leics are clearing £100 a day, which I dont consider a low income. Especially for Leics which has the lowest mean income in the UK.
Another thing to consider with uber drivers, is because its all digital, they are forced to declare all earnings so no tax evasion, whilst any cash in hand job tax evasion is rife.
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Yep, fully appreciate that and have often said to colleagues it those that take the risk are the ones that get rich. It's just a shame that they forget they couldn't have done it without their employees, especially the loyal ones who've stuck around for years, 25 in my case.
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yep couldnt agree more ronski.
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Yes if you OWN a business on you stand to lose money if it folds. But how CEO's and other executives own the business they work for? Where is the risk if you have a basic salary of 500,000 pa plus bonuses and a contract that gives you a substantial pay off if things go wrong and you get the push?
I don't see much rIsk there at all. One reasons the 2008 fiasco in banking was this very issue; rewards far outweighed any risk AND the guilty were playing with other people's money.
I agree that things have swung far too much in favour of big corporations. There are several reasons. Firstly the trade union movement in the 60's and 70's overplayed their hand and led to their power being much reduced. Even there as well - where was the risk for some of the union leaders on earnings many multiples of their members?
IT has introduced competition - some good for the consumer and the man in the street (think about how travel insurance has dropped in price). However it has led to a mentally and ability of consumers to chase the lowest price leading to manufacturers to go to where the labour is cheapest. China et al have been keen to be low cost manufacturers. We should all remember as consumers we have the money to spend and can wield enormous power if we vote with our money.
The Southern Rail industrial dispute is a good example.Here we have a strong Union, dealing with a company that only exists because it provides a service to the public. I think guards on trains are a good idea. The government could stipulate this in the franchise. All Southern are trying to do is to make money. At our expense.
Another issue has been the penchant for governments to leave skills training to the market place. Result far fewer skilled craftsmen.
I shall lie down now!
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Test this Thursday not happening now, I only just noticed its at a hospital 30 miles away which is stupid, I told the hospital I will attend if they cover my costs or send me in ambulance, they decided to cancel and and make a new appointment locally. But when the next appointment comes I will do the return trip on the other app.
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To take the heat away from the london regulators, some news that sheffield has now also suspended uber's license.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42270020
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Disallowed in Oxford too, a long time before London...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3703247/Uber-BANNED-setting-cheap-taxi-app-Oxford-licensed-drivers-private-hire-firms-rallied-block-application.html
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York has also now decided to refuse to renew Uber's operating licence:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-42328380
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/york-council-chiefs-refuse-to-renew-uber-s-licence-in-york-1-8906718
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York has also now decided to refuse to renew Uber's operating licence:
Intersting, same conclusion, not a fit and proper person. And specifically based on the covered up data breach.
That could be very good news for Londoners, if it means that the lawyers think TFL will be able to cite the cover up as supporting evidence when the appeal gets argued out.
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Sheffield just renewed Uber's licence
http://www.cityam.com/277440/uber-gets-green-light-operate-sheffield-after-city-lifts