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Announcements => News Articles => Topic started by: ejs on November 07, 2017, 06:10:54 PM

Title: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: ejs on November 07, 2017, 06:10:54 PM
https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefingsarticles/nga03917.do

Quote
This briefing is to inform all CPs of an interim solution for resetting Dynamic Line Management (DLM) caution counters.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: burakkucat on November 07, 2017, 06:35:36 PM
That is interesting.  :)

We now need someone who can log into the Openreach portal, read the full briefing and provide us with a synopsis thereof.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: kitz on November 07, 2017, 07:12:56 PM
Can't read what it says but afaik it's not finalised yet, so no point rushing to BTr or PN atm asking for a reset just yet.
Won't be like an Engineer reset that takes immediate effect, so I'm guessing it will be like the old 20CN requests which will be batch processed overnight.   
That leaves the question as to whether or not it will be able to remove banding.   I guess we will have to wait and see. 
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: kitz on November 07, 2017, 10:04:19 PM
A little bit more info.   

It's my understanding that this is currently an interim solution for GEA FTTC and as such is not currently available to all ISPs at the present time.


Hopefully in time it will become a more automated process and available to all ISPs. 
Because of maximum limits and the required improvement criteria do not expect ISPs to be doing this just upon EU request as they will be rejected.

*  eg if DLM is currently limiting line to 48Mbps and the max attainable is 49.5Mbps then tough luck.
** Which means depending on cab type expect INP/Interleaving to be applied.  G.INP re-tx should be reapplied over a further period of days as per usual.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: Ixel on November 07, 2017, 10:46:56 PM
One step closer to ISP's being able to reset DLM on FTTC. Good to hear.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: WWWombat on November 07, 2017, 10:53:59 PM
Caution Counters?

Am I right in thinking this is the counter mechanism that tracks how many days are required (of constant ILQ Green) before contemplating a DLM de-intervention step?
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: kitz on November 07, 2017, 11:01:51 PM
Yes. 
I think the theory is that by resetting the caution counters, then you're clearing out of all of the 'x' no of ILQ green requirements steps before it goes back to 'normal'.

Thus why I'm waiting to see if it does also remove banding.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: WWWombat on November 07, 2017, 11:08:50 PM
Ta.

It feels like a strange, indirect step to offer CPs. Those CPs will tell their customers that they've done something, and things might improve in a few days...

I can understand how this is a positive move from Openreach, by allowing DLM to make a fast(er) new decision, without totally subverting DLM. However, I don't see it as a thing that is easy to describe to joe public.

But, if it does unblock banding, then it is absolutely a positive move.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: kitz on November 07, 2017, 11:40:33 PM
It feels like a strange, indirect step to offer CPs.

It also makes me wonder about the 2 types of DLM reset theory which I believe has been in use since ASSIA.
There's the Openreach engineer reset which is immediate and seems to take everything back as if the line was new & starting from scratch - complete with the up to 48hrs of no profile at all.
Then there's the one that they seem to do at a system level by someone sat in an office somewhere.  Is this how they currently do it,  by just resetting the caution counters?
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: WWWombat on November 09, 2017, 12:07:24 AM
Then there's the one that they seem to do at a system level by someone sat in an office somewhere.  Is this how they currently do it,  by just resetting the caution counters?

I wonder.

Do we have any evidence about whether operational changes to the line happen at the exact time someone pokes "under the hood", or do we see delays (where DLM would make the final decision)?

I thought we saw the former, but a disjoint behaviour might explain some of those cases where a member of public reports "ISP XXX said they'd reset DLM, but nothing happened".

Edit: This theory makes some sense. If you are wary of releasing any functionality at all to a CP, as BT are, wouldn't it make sense to run it internally first, while you still have complete control?
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: kitz on November 11, 2017, 12:12:42 AM
Not sure.   Was it broadstairs who recently got a DLM reset by Openreach at system level rather than by an engineer.

The point about overnight processing is not so much about the DLM still making any decisions, but rather that things are not fully automated.
In days of old on the 20CN system if the ISP wanted to get a DLM reset they had to contact BTW - usually by phone.   Someone at BTw then put the circuit ID (or whatever) on a list.   This list would then be run overnight using an automated script.

Sounds like this new interim solution may be similar.    ISP has to email OR with details of the lines which they want resetting by 3pm. 
OR then check that SP is keeping within rules of max number of 1000 per day and that the line is within the improvement criteria. List is processed overnight. 

>> "ISP XXX said they'd reset DLM, but nothing happened".

I believe its one shot with no feedback.   If they miss the deadline, or if line fails to meet the criteria.. then nothing happens. 
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: kitz on November 11, 2017, 12:25:38 AM
btw whilst at the OR site also saw this...  which Im not sure if I like the look of.

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefingsarticles/nga03817.do

Could be an end to the Open Profile and straight to Interleave for all.   Not so much of a problem for Huawei's who then move on to G.INP.
However ECI cabs in some respects are currently immune to the Interleave by default.  It can be a PITA getting rid of INP as it is, so I can forsee that a lot of lines that normally would run quite well on ILQ amber without INP, having problems getting INP removed.

I'm not sure whether I do like it, because if a new line was behaving pretty badly DLM could (and would) immediately over-ride open profile.   Supposedly its because of complaints during the Open phase..  but seriously???  Most of the large ISPs resort to telling the EU it will settle in 10 days and still use the 'training phase' even though its not strictly true.   The line is at most on Open for 48hrs so someone would have to be pretty quick off the mark to think that an engineer would be there before DLM has kicked in on its own anyhow.  :-\
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: broadstairs on November 11, 2017, 08:20:40 AM
I am already suspicious of interleaving being the default on ECI cabs now. I have had a huge amount of trouble getting it removed only for DLM to put it back almost immediately and not remove it at all. I know my line can run well at amber ILQ and when G.INP was available on ECI my line ran exceptionally well at around 70000kbps, now the best I get is around  61000kbps with interleaving and exceptionally low error rates only just making double figure ES in 24 hours but DLM stubbornly refusing to remove interleaving.

Stuart
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: skyeci on November 11, 2017, 09:00:16 AM
Try capping it at 54 on the ds. Worked for me. 8 days to get rid of it after waiting 5 weeks. I removed the cap after the removal and still on fast path with no issue.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: broadstairs on November 11, 2017, 09:37:36 AM
Try capping it at 54 on the ds. Worked for me. 8 days to get rid of it after waiting 5 weeks. I removed the cap after the removal and still on fast path with no issue.

If I'm running with barely 10-20 or so ES/day I dont see how reducing the speed will get DLM to do anything. My line is unquestionably running very well in terms of very low error rates and DLM wont do anything. Just seems pointless to me unless anyone else can give me an explanation as to why DLM might intervene, so I dont intend to try it until I have an explanation as to why it might work.

Stuart
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: Ixel on November 11, 2017, 09:40:49 AM
btw whilst at the OR site also saw this...  which Im not sure if I like the look of.

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefingsarticles/nga03817.do

Could be an end to the Open Profile and straight to Interleave for all.   Not so much of a problem for Huawei's who then move on to G.INP.
However ECI cabs in some respects are currently immune to the Interleave by default.  It can be a PITA getting rid of INP as it is, so I can forsee that a lot of lines that normally would run quite well on ILQ amber without INP, having problems getting INP removed.

I'm not sure whether I do like it, because if a new line was behaving pretty badly DLM could (and would) immediately over-ride open profile.   Supposedly its because of complaints during the Open phase..  but seriously???  Most of the large ISPs resort to telling the EU it will settle in 10 days and still use the 'training phase' even though its not strictly true.   The line is at most on Open for 48hrs so someone would have to be pretty quick off the mark to think that an engineer would be there before DLM has kicked in on its own anyhow.  :-\

Yeah this was posted on ISPreview recently, I also mentioned it in another thread in the news section here. I'm fearful it might mean interleaving by default and no more fastpath. If it's interleaving I really hope it's something lighter than INP 3 and delay 8ms (e.g. INP 2 perhaps, like it was before G.INP rolled out in whatever part Eircom manages in Ireland). On the other hand it might mean something different, it might mean Reed Solomon Coding on downstream by default. Right now the Broadcom devices negotiate with an R value of 0 on downstream if fastpath, where Infineon/Lantiq devices seem to negotiate with an R of 16 (at least on ECI DSLAM's). Maybe their intention is to have an R value greater than 0 on the downstream by default like it is for upstream. I don't mind that.

If however interleaving, like INP 3 delay 8ms, is used by default then it's just going to mask many line faults and make it that much harder for Openreach to admit and agree that there's a problem. I really hope this is not the case as I'd miss my current 5.5 to 6.0 ms ping on the new TalkTalk backhaul (trialling) via AAISP to YouTube.

I am already suspicious of interleaving being the default on ECI cabs now. I have had a huge amount of trouble getting it removed only for DLM to put it back almost immediately and not remove it at all. I know my line can run well at amber ILQ and when G.INP was available on ECI my line ran exceptionally well at around 70000kbps, now the best I get is around  61000kbps with interleaving and exceptionally low error rates only just making double figure ES in 24 hours but DLM stubbornly refusing to remove interleaving.

Stuart

Try capping it at 54 on the ds. Worked for me. 8 days to get rid of it after waiting 5 weeks. I removed the cap after the removal and still on fast path with no issue.

This helped me recently too I believe. I bumped up the SNRM target offset on my DrayTek to initially +3.0 dB and then +5.0 dB (maximum allowed) and I'm now fastpath :).

If I'm running with barely 10-20 or so ES/day I dont see how reducing the speed will get DLM to do anything. My line is unquestionably running very well in terms of very low error rates and DLM wont do anything. Just seems pointless to me unless anyone else can give me an explanation as to why DLM might intervene, so I dont intend to try it until I have an explanation as to why it might work.

Stuart

We don't know for sure but FEC errors might also be taken into consideration, are they low?
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: Chrysalis on November 11, 2017, 09:55:23 AM
its also possible they will interleave by default but still allow lines to be moved to fast path, so keeping fast path as a profile just not as default
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: adslmax on November 13, 2017, 09:25:25 PM
That's good to hear it. Now, I want to let PN know of doing this DLM reset!
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: kitz on November 13, 2017, 09:59:19 PM
As I said elsewhere - Plusnet cant yet.

This is currently an interim solution for GEA FTTC and as such is not currently available to all ISPs at the present time.

Plusnet arent one of those who can request it yet on the new system (neither are BTr come to that).
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: adslmax on November 13, 2017, 10:02:01 PM
That's because PN and BT are too cheap marketing! They proud to be but in my view, they unproud to be. PN is going downhill. I probably consider switch to other isp soon. But who?
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: kitz on November 13, 2017, 10:07:41 PM
Quote
That's because PN and BT are too cheap marketing!

NO!  Absolutely nothing to do with that at all.



----
Imagine a different scenario.
One whereby only BT customers had the ability to get a DLM reset from Openreach.   
Now think who would be screaming hardest.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: burakkucat on November 13, 2017, 10:12:08 PM
I probably consider switch to other isp soon. But who?

If you want the best, I'll suggest Andrews and Arnold (https://www.aaisp.net.uk/).
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: atkinsong on January 23, 2018, 06:27:33 PM
I have today, just before 4.00 pm, had a DLM reset which was arranged by BT Retail.

Story is that back in November I got carried away by the DGA4130 thread and obtained one. Had great fun setting it up as per the thread, but the end result was my line becoming both interleaved and banded. Straight back to the Draytek and despite 6 weeks of zero errors there was no sign at all of DLM relenting.
On Jan 3rd I recontracted with BT, and was pleased to see my synch was below the guaranteed minimum. Rather than raise this issue by phone, I opted to ask for help via the BT Community Forums. Although this is a customer to customer forum there is a "small specialised team of BT employees" who will on occasion pick up issues. I was hoping to have an OR visit so that a reset could be done. My case was picked up yesterday, and I received a message from the person who picked it up to say he had raised the issue with OR and would call today with an update. I checked the stats a couple of times this morning but no change. I received the call shortly after 4pm to be informed a reset had been done and my banding and interleaving removed - indeed it has.
We had a good chat about it and he confirmed that the reset had been done remotely, but also said that OR are controlling this extremely tightly, and when he submitted the request he had no idea whether it would be done or not. Definately a move in the right direction.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: ktz392837 on January 23, 2018, 06:43:47 PM
Great news but I am not sure it can be classed as a move in the right direction unless it is a change of ISP/OR policy.

To me if you explain the problem was caused by a 'faulty" modem the line should just be reset you shouldn't need to beg or hope that either the ISP or OR will do it or risk getting charged £100 for the privilege.  It should basically be can you please reset my line, yes we have done it and  thanks for your continued business.

Edit: What would have happened if you were still above the minimum for the line?  My range for "acceptable" performance is 25Mb, to me that is not an acceptable range it should be 5-10Mb at the MOST for an established line.  If I tried a new modem and lost 25Mb of performance I wouldn't be happy if I couldn't get a reset, if I had lost 5Mb I wouldn't be happy.  If you can give a sensible reason and you are not continually asking for resets the ISP/OR should just reset the line no questions asked.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: atkinsong on January 23, 2018, 06:50:46 PM
Fair comment, but as we know things tend to move ever so slowly in OR, but at least they appear to be moving.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: Black Sheep on January 23, 2018, 06:53:12 PM
Great news but I am not sure it can be classed as a move in the right direction unless it is a change of ISP/OR policy.

To me if you explain the problem was caused by a 'faulty" modem the line should just be reset you shouldn't need to beg or hope that either the ISP or OR will do it or risk getting charged £100 for the privilege.  It should basically be can you please reset my line, yes we have done it and  thanks for your continued business.

The problem here lies with the bigger picture. How long would it be before individuals/ISP's started to be liberal with the truth ??

I agree a move forward needs to happen regarding this particular scenario, but it needs to be policed correctly.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: adslmax on January 23, 2018, 07:01:50 PM
That's good to hear it. But sadly plusnet will not do it. No matter what is it down to DLM caution counter to check the next banded to be removed. They always telling me that fttc doesn't have any caution counter and they haven't got the tool to see this. I know they making excuse out of it. But the way my sync rate stayed at 74 Meg for 48 days ongoing now. Don't think it will never removed it off for a very long time but I ain't bother because losing 6 Meg off from 80 to 74 is hardly noticed any difference but if I did lose up to 15 Meg knockoff then it will be a matter to chase it up with plusnet to get it sorted out. Hopefully all ISPs will follow this step.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: ktz392837 on January 23, 2018, 07:06:39 PM
I edited my reply above unfortunately not quick enough before replies were posted.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: Black Sheep on January 23, 2018, 07:09:26 PM
That's good to hear it. But sadly plusnet will not do it. No matter what is it down to DLM caution counter to the banded removed. They always telling me that fttc doesn't have any caution counter and they haven't got the tool to see this. I know they making excuse out of it.

Caution counters are present on FTTC DLM, and I cant see why a large ISP such as PlusNet, or any ISP for that matter would deny this ??

Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: adslmax on January 23, 2018, 07:19:01 PM
Caution counters are present on FTTC DLM, and I cant see why a large ISP such as PlusNet, or any ISP for that matter would deny this ??

Try telling this to Anoush (Gandalf) as he answered all my questions below:

ME: Will you be able to get in touch with the fault team see what they reckon?

PN: As a business, we've got no control over DLM and can't send out an engineer if your line is performing within estimates.

In addition, our faults team have access to the same tools as I do.

ME: The FIbre do have caution counter (this part need to be check it out) as it will tell how long to wait before the next DLM act again to removed banded?

PN: Our tests don't show that I'm afraid.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: atkinsong on January 23, 2018, 07:29:10 PM


Edit: What would have happened if you were still above the minimum for the line?  My range for "acceptable" performance is 25Mb, to me that is not an acceptable range it should be 5-10Mb at the MOST for an established line.  If I tried a new modem and lost 25Mb of performance I wouldn't be happy if I couldn't get a reset, if I had lost 5Mb I wouldn't be happy.  If you can give a sensible reason and you are not continually asking for resets the ISP/OR should just reset the line no questions asked.

I wouldn't even have bothered raising it if the line had not been below the min guarantee. The purpose of my post was to show that at least OR can see the sense in doing it this way rather than sending out an engineer to do the same thing.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: kitz on January 23, 2018, 07:51:59 PM
Perhaps BT are now one of the ISPs which can request a remote reset.   I reported in the past that this was something that Openreach had been trialling but they were very strict about the requests.   I know that at the beginning it was available to a couple of ISPs.   Neither being BT or Plusnet.   
However that was now a few months ago and it's not beyond the realms of possibility that BT is now able to do so.   I know for certain that Plusnet can't yet.

See my post which says

this is currently an interim solution for GEA FTTC and as such is not currently available to all ISPs at the present time.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: Black Sheep on January 23, 2018, 08:00:49 PM
As with all things BT, everything is 'Internal only' ..... even our bi-weekly 'rag' has recently been moved to the same level.

With this in mind just keep watching for 'big news' regarding this coming soon.  :) :)
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: kitz on January 23, 2018, 08:05:14 PM
Try telling this to Anoush (Gandalf) as he answered all my questions below:

ME: Will you be able to get in touch with the fault team see what they reckon?

PN: As a business, we've got no control over DLM and can't send out an engineer if your line is performing within estimates.

In addition, our faults team have access to the same tools as I do.

ME: The FIbre do have caution counter (this part need to be check it out) as it will tell how long to wait before the next DLM act again to removed banded?

PN: Our tests don't show that I'm afraid.

Max he was not lying to you.    Plusnet can't do this.   FGS I've said time and time again that they can't yet. >:(
Seriously what is the point in me trying to find out things and then you just read into it what you like.

As I said elsewhere - Plusnet cant yet.

Its an interim solution and not all ISPs can and its not even an automated process.   If you read the thread, it is hoped in time that something can be integrated into tools available to the ISP, but as yet there isnt.

You are also twisting Anoush's words. :mad:  He did not say that FTTC did not have a caution counter.   He said that their tests don't show the caution counter stats.

This is also correct.  I know that BTw are attempting to develop further tools for the SPs,  atm some things are only available to adsl and not FTTC.
A step forward is that they have recently added RRT for FTTC.

 
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: adslmax on January 23, 2018, 08:10:02 PM
Oh well. It's just a matter of time before PN become available. For now, BT the only ISP can do it. It's pretty good news for everyones sooner or later. A right step forward. I have been very patience for the last 48 days stuck with 74Meg but I shall not be moaned about it. I am half way to become recovery better from mental health problem with related illness stress and depression. :)
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: kitz on January 23, 2018, 08:15:08 PM
Quote
For now, BT the only ISP can do it.

No read again.  Originally there were a couple of ISPs, I said its not beyond the realms of possibility that BT can now too.   It's currently an interim measure hence why not available to all SPs yet.    Think of it like a trial.   If it was working ok and the other SPs weren't abusing the system, then its probable that they will expand.
I even dropped a big hint that BTwholesale was looking to see if it could be integrated into the KBD suite of ISP tools.   afaik this hasnt been done yet. 
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: j0hn on January 24, 2018, 01:16:03 AM
The above example of a "remote" reset may be unrelated to the new caution counter reset procedure that has recently been trialled.

It's always been possible for an ISP to send a case to OpenReach, and the DCOE perform the reset. There's just never been a proper procedure for it, or any criteria clearly set out. The chances of getting an ISP rep who knows what banding is, never mind who in OpenReach such a case should be raised to, is very slim.

1 of the Zen? (I think) reps pointed out their way of dealing with banding. They raise a case with OpenReach for a frames engineer. In the notes they request the frames engineer arrange a DLM reset via DCOE. They can only do this if the line profile (banding level) is below the downstream handback threshold. The rep says they were told to follow this procedure by OpenReach after continuously pushing them for a better solution to dealing with banding.
It works 9/10 times. If for whatever reason it gets rejected (the frames engineer refuses?) they simply resubmit it.
The above may be a similar example to this.

Personally I don't think ISP's should be given a button to perform DLM resets. I would rather cases were forwarded to OpenReach, who make sure it meets certain criteria. I don't like interleaving shouldn't be 1 of the criteria.
Banding below minimum estimates, or stuck banding (say x number of months) sounds more reasonable.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: atkinsong on January 24, 2018, 06:22:39 AM
During the long chat we had when the rep called me I specifically asked if this had been done via the new caution counter reset procedure. He confirmed that it had.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: ktz392837 on January 24, 2018, 09:03:38 AM
Banding below minimum estimates, or stuck banding (say x number of months) sounds more reasonable.
I think the handback data needs to be worked on as this data is what is causing some of the problems.  Looking at the data for my line you have a stupid handback speeds with ranges of 33%! It is too harsh of a criteria based on values that appear to be plucked from thin air. 

Extreme example - I have never heard of a line with stuck interleaving that seems to be one bit of the DLM that works but if a customer has had a line with no interleaving for 5 years and then interleaving was applied I think that SHOULD be allowed a reset.

If interleave was reapplied after the reset then perhaps another reset would be harder to get?

The ability to reset should be based on historical & actual data not on estimated criteria with such wide error ranges. 

Customer Service reps also need better training and OR need to reduce the arbitrary and limited criteria for resets.   

If resets can be automated just give everyone a couple of resets per year with virtually no questions asked.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: Black Sheep on January 24, 2018, 10:14:40 AM
During the long chat we had when the rep called me I specifically asked if this had been done via the new caution counter reset procedure. He confirmed that it had.

I would put my wage on it, that it was done through this procedure.  ;) :) :)
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: adslmax on January 24, 2018, 10:20:32 AM
new caution counter reset procedure

I thought DLM would do the job itself or has it failed for some of us like stuck banded? If it was, then why isn't OR adjusted it and fix this system out. Apology if I am incorrect in this stage!
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: ejs on January 24, 2018, 08:03:58 PM
I don't think historical data really adds much justification for getting something fixed or reset. There's nothing to guarantee that your speed will never get any lower or that your line will never get any worse. It shouldn't be like "oh, you used to get the full 80Mb, therefore you should never have to suffer the indignity of getting less than the full 80Mb".

But, like most things, it will probably end up being done to shut up whoever is complaining the loudest. If you ask nicely, the answer will be no, it's not possible, you can't have one. So it'll be the usual kick up a huge fuss to get whatever you want done.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: Black Sheep on January 24, 2018, 08:08:51 PM
But, like most things, it will probably end up being done to shut up whoever is complaining the loudest. If you ask nicely, the answer will be no, it's not possible, you can't have one. So it'll be the usual kick up a huge fuss to get whatever you want done.

Errrm nope, that's not what I'm reading.

Of course there is criteria, there always is and always will be, no matter what you apply for in life ..... but let's give it a chance to run before 'we' start doom and glooming.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: ktz392837 on January 24, 2018, 10:09:48 PM
I don't think historical data really adds much ....."oh, you used to get the full 80Mb

I believe it could add some value.  For example, if historically your line ran fine for X years at XMb (80Mb or 10Mb doesn't matter), a problem occurred, problem is sorted, you end up banded be it losing 1Mb, 10Mb or 50Mb if the customer gives a reasonable case (be it stats, weather event etc) for a reset they should get one. 

No need to miss a days work waiting for an engineer,  no need to miss another days work as the first engineer didn't turn up, no need to endure the engineer say the ISP can perform a reset why was he here, no need to hear that your internet running 30% or worse than what it should be is acceptable, no need to beg the engineer to reset your line anyway, no need to hear the engineer say XMb is plenty fast enough you don't need more, etc.

I am all for what appears to be  positive development of allowing a reset to be "automated" and requested by the ISP but I am not sure it will have much benefit as it could do unless a bit of relaxing of the rules is applied by both ISPs and OR (who knows that may be the plan anyway).

Eg: Why shouldn't "max" get a chance to get his missing 7Mb back if he has stats that says his line supports it? 

Why shouldn't the (edit: different) person who now has vectoring on his line get a reset so he can get the extra speed?
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: adslmax on January 24, 2018, 10:13:33 PM
@ktz392837 I wish my cabinet have vectoring or target SNR 3dB but there isn't at the moment.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: ktz392837 on January 24, 2018, 10:18:47 PM
@ktz392837 I wish my cabinet have vectoring or target SNR 3dB but there isn't at the moment.
As a fellow ECI cab sufferer I hear you :)

I will get my ECI rant hat on when the next news on this is published.  I am really hoping I will be able to  throw it away though :)
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: j0hn on January 25, 2018, 12:50:03 AM
@ktz392837 I wish my cabinet have vectoring or target SNR 3dB but there isn't at the moment.
Your cabinet does have 3dB, the rollout is complete. Your line doesn't use it because you sync at the max rate.

You don't need vectoring either.
Vectoring reduces crosstalk to improve sync.

When your line isn't banded you get the full 80Mb. Vectoring or a 3dB target snrm can't increase it any further.
If you had both it would make no difference with or without banding.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: Ixel on January 25, 2018, 01:03:04 AM
Your cabinet does have 3dB, the rollout is complete. Your line doesn't use it because you sync at the max rate.

You don't need vectoring either.
Vectoring reduces crosstalk to improve sync.

When your line isn't banded you get the full 80Mb. Vectoring or a 3dB target snrm can't increase it any further.
If you had both it would make no difference with or without banding.

ECI cabinets have 3 dB? That's news to me if so.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: niemand on January 25, 2018, 01:19:03 AM
Max is on a Huawei 288.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: Ixel on January 25, 2018, 01:38:42 AM
Max is on a Huawei 288.

Ah, ok, I see. My mistake, but thanks for clarifying :).
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: Chrysalis on January 25, 2018, 09:20:35 AM
To me what is fair is an approach that doesnt take the line "DLM is always right".

The system should stop serial abusers e.g. someone ringing every week to get DLM reset as their line is erroring like crazy causing interleaving, but should also let someone who has rang up who has never made a request before get it actioned without any serious questioning, just do it.

I would also like to see one of 2 operation modes for DLM.

Latency preference on or off.

If on, banding would always be preferred over interleaving for stability action. If off, keep the current behaviour. It could be labelled as a "gamers" flag to keep things simple.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: Ixel on January 25, 2018, 10:29:26 AM
To me what is fair is an approach that doesnt take the line "DLM is always right".

The system should stop serial abusers e.g. someone ringing every week to get DLM reset as their line is erroring like crazy causing interleaving, but should also let someone who has rang up who has never made a request before get it actioned without any serious questioning, just do it.

I would also like to see one of 2 operation modes for DLM.

Latency preference on or off.

If on, banding would always be preferred over interleaving for stability action. If off, keep the current behaviour. It could be labelled as a "gamers" flag to keep things simple.

This would be great for people like me. I much prefer losing some speed instead of having higher latency. Unfortunately I doubt Openreach would ever implement such a choice. To be fair I'd rather have the choice of disabling/pausing DLM.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: ejs on January 25, 2018, 07:44:04 PM
I believe it could add some value.  For example, if historically your line ran fine for X years at XMb (80Mb or 10Mb doesn't matter), a problem occurred, problem is sorted, you end up banded be it losing 1Mb, 10Mb or 50Mb if the customer gives a reasonable case (be it stats, weather event etc) for a reset they should get one.

In that case, then there should be no need to give any reason at all to do a DLM reset. It's not as if somebody has to go out and open up the FTTC cabinet and pull a lever. I don't think it's significantly different to an ADSL DLM reset.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: ejs on January 25, 2018, 07:47:40 PM
The system should stop serial abusers e.g. someone ringing every week to get DLM reset as their line is erroring like crazy causing interleaving, but should also let someone who has rang up who has never made a request before get it actioned without any serious questioning, just do it.

The ISP should be able to handle doing the reset or not as appropriate, so unless there's a need for a system to protect against useless ISP staff, there's no need for Openreach to have a system to restrict the resets.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: Black Sheep on January 25, 2018, 08:47:35 PM
In that case, then there should be no need to give any reason at all to do a DLM reset. It's not as if somebody has to go out and open up the FTTC cabinet and pull a lever. I don't think it's significantly different to an ADSL DLM reset.

It is in as much as ADSL DLM resets are unique to the individual ISP's equipment ............ VDSL DLM is a common entity.

I have no idea what the outcome would be of misuse of the VDSL DLM, but the powers that be must think it harmful enough to keep the ISP's paws off it !!

It's not perfect, we all know that .... but there are moves almost upon us, for ISP's to request full resets if the criteria permits it. As in most situations, individuals just think of themselves or their own situation when making a statement like 'Don't restrict resets' ......... nothing wrong with that, human nature ...... but there are far more qualified folk that us working on these things who have the final say as to whether it would be wise or not.

 
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: ejs on January 25, 2018, 09:13:19 PM
So what about BTWholesale's ADSL equipment and DLM shared by all those ISPs using BTWholesale? That's just as much a common entity as Openreach's FTTC DLM.

Can anyone suggest any of the reasons as to why it's necessary for the DLM resets to be restricted?

There may well be people who know far more than anyone on this forum, but then there are also people who like making other people do what they say because they say so, even if it's ultimately pretty pointless.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: Black Sheep on January 25, 2018, 09:45:36 PM

There may well be people who know far more than anyone on this forum, but then there are also people who like making other people do what they say because they say so, even if it's ultimately pretty pointless.

Yeah, that'll be the reason.  ::)
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: Chrysalis on January 26, 2018, 07:01:56 AM
The ISP should be able to handle doing the reset or not as appropriate, so unless there's a need for a system to protect against useless ISP staff, there's no need for Openreach to have a system to restrict the resets.

The system I mean as in how the end user interacts with it, the request, and down to openreach actioning it, so yes not just openreach, the system as in designed between the CPs and openreach in what sort of requests will be accepted for actioning and rejected.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: licquorice on January 26, 2018, 08:30:03 AM
Yeah, that'll be the reason.  ::)

I really must get a pair of those rose tinted glasses you wear BS  ;)
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: Black Sheep on January 26, 2018, 09:45:11 AM
I really must get a pair of those rose tinted glasses you wear BS  ;)

I'll raise my half-empty glass to you, when you finally purchase them, Licq !!  ;)
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: Bowdon on January 26, 2018, 12:51:18 PM
It would be interesting to let the end user request a maximum limit of DLM resets per X months.

It would also be interesting to allow people to set their own sync rates. If someone wants high sync rates with more dropped connections then they have no one else to blame but themselves. If someone else wants a stable connection and a lower sync then they should be able to do that as well.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: adslmax on January 26, 2018, 01:05:36 PM
My last Remote Defect Indicator/DLM was on the 26th November 2017 at 12:55pm. My line was ongoing stable for 51 days and 3 hours with no sign of resync by DLM to removed banded 74Meg capped yet. Because I can't remember when I look up other forum here or somewhere else that DLM will removed banded after 2 months (correct me if I was right?)

Here is my latest stats from router:

Code: [Select]
Uptime:                  51 days 3 hours 14 min 3 sec
Code: [Select]
Total time = 51 days 3 hours 14 min 3 sec
FEC:            14410           14134
CRC:            0               2015
ES:             0               1655
SES:            0               0
UAS:            28              28
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0

Code: [Select]
Downstream Upstream
Line attenuation (dB):  11.4 0.0
Signal attenuation (dB): Not available on VDSL2
Connection speed (kbps): 74000 19999
SNR margin (dB):        8.4 14.3
Power (dBm):            12.4 -1.1
Interleave depth:        16 1
INP:                    49.00 0
G.INP:                  Enabled Not enabled
Vectoring status:        5 (VECT_UNCONFIGURED)
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: Black Sheep on January 26, 2018, 02:20:25 PM
It would be interesting to let the end user request a maximum limit of DLM resets per X months.

It would also be interesting to allow people to set their own sync rates. If someone wants high sync rates with more dropped connections then they have no one else to blame but themselves. If someone else wants a stable connection and a lower sync then they should be able to do that as well.

That isn't going to happen.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: ejs on January 26, 2018, 05:55:05 PM
It would be interesting to let the end user request a maximum limit of DLM resets per X months.

I'm not even quite sure what you mean by this, did you mean that I could request that the DLM is not allowed to resync my line more than once a year (for example)?
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: adslmax on January 26, 2018, 07:26:07 PM
I am in fully support if both Openreach and ISP to put a maximum limit of 4 x DLM resets per year subject to a good reasonable from the fault team to avoid abused to the DLM system.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: ejs on January 26, 2018, 08:23:46 PM
Can anyone suggest any of the reasons as to why it's necessary for the DLM resets to be restricted?

I'll attempt to answer my own question, I'd overlooked something fairly simple, but it could also account for a lot of the observed behaviour of the DLM, why it doesn't do this or that that you think it should have done by now.

The reason is that the DLM is crap, and the way it was designed or cobbled together or whatever has made resetting a line into some very inconvenient task.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: adslmax on January 26, 2018, 08:35:41 PM
I agree more. I never like the DLM for FTTC, how sad is it! :( on the bad day on the line the line speed reduced or banded on it pretty quickly by DLM but on the good day of longer stable, the DLM might never restored the speed back or removed banded line for so long or possible stuck.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: niemand on January 27, 2018, 01:31:27 PM
I very much doubt the vast majority even notice DLM. There is no real business value in Openreach pandering to nerds fixated by their broadband stats. That I imagine is the overwhelming driver behind DLM functionality.

With Openreach looking at newer technologies now there is little value in wasting time and money on most things related to FTTC. What is there is good enough for most, with tactical deployments of things like vectoring where necessary.
Title: Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
Post by: Chrysalis on January 27, 2018, 01:44:30 PM
Do people notice slowdowns yes.

I think your comment is a bit harsh, I would rephrase that people may notice things slow down but have little idea or even the time to investigate as to why, so just get on with things instead of worrying about it, thats probably closer to the truth than not noticing.

The primary new technology openreach is working on is g.fast which is still pretty much the same as VDSL except over a bigger frequency range, so any improvements to FTTC DLM would probably apply to that product as well.  Not to mention most of their customer base is on FTTC or ADSL and probably will be for at least another 5 years (with the rate openreach are progressing, and the products LLU's are pushing), so anything that cuts down on engineer callouts etc. is probably worth pursuing for them.

I know several people personally who are definitely not nerds, and have in casual conversation mentioned (to me, not other way round) about internet problems they had, whether its laggy browsing, dodgy streaming or just slow downloads.  People do notice these things.  My 71 year old dad as an example knows what an ip address is which surprised me, people do learn things.

This is obviously not going to be labeled as a DLM reset, it will be dumbed down in tech support language to something like "yes sir I think I know what the problem is, we will make changes to your line and you should notice an improvement in X days".