Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: DMZ on November 03, 2017, 04:10:00 PM
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Hey community,
I just thought I'd share my saga so far after I had a quick power cut in my house.
Here's a link to my saga over on the talktalk forum;
https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/Fibre-Broadband/Power-cut-Lower-download-speeds-amp-fluctuating-DS-noise-margin/td-p/2118768
Basic story goes as follows;
An oven in the kitchen caused the power to trip everything in the house. Which dropped my connection from 79Mbps to 76Mbps. I foolishly rebooted it via the router admin page hoping it would raise it but it dropped further to 73Mbps.
Ever since then it has gotten worse. In terms of stability that is. The downstream speeds always change but the upstream remains and still does remain unaffected.
The noise margin on the downstream had been wonky spiking up and down in the past week. It has settled that part now but the router (HG633) reboots itself once or twice a day either raising the downstream speed or lowering it. And it has been doing that for almost a week.
One odd thing I've not been interleaved once despite the instability and it only is affecting the downstream. Still fastpath.
The great guys on the TalkTalk forum did two line tests which came back clear (Great no line faults) but seen instability (Router).
I did ask if the power cut could have caused some damage to the router and they agreed of the possibility (TalkTalk OCE) so I'm awaiting a replacement router.
And waiting is the worst let me tell ya!
If you want a better, clearer understanding of the power cut saga have a look at my forum thread link above. I do get a bit impatient at one point mind you.
Before the power cut it was stable. Afterwards just oddy body stuff, everything else electrical wise is fine just not the router now, boo!
I thought I'd share this with you guys. Maybe good bedtime reading.
Take care. :)
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Sounds eventful and unfortunate. Could be a dodgy modem, only way to know for sure would be to try another. I always keep spare modems, specifically for my recent problems I've had which it looks like AAISP have resolved (waiting for DLM to remove interleaving completely). Keep us all informed on what happens though, I've read some interesting TalkTalk stories, even had a few of my own experiences with them when helping some locals with an internet related issue they were having. As soon as they say their ISP is TalkTalk I sigh :P.
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Hey bud,
I hope you get closer to your resolve (Which seems to be the case)
I've been with them for over a year in two properties and have to say they've been great overall as a service. Some hiccups here and there but not bad or average.
I use it mainly for doing 1080p 60fps live steams over YouTube Gaming and it never faltered for me. And even in the state it's in right now, I'm gaming without lag. And my mother works from home without a blip until it decides 'Nope going down for a few seconds' lol.
I will keep everyone updated about any progress. I do think think it's the router that's frazzled.
My point of reference;
Before the power cut fine and dandy. After power cut not so fine and dandy.
But hey...anyway keep an eye out. ;D
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Have you tried a complete power down of the modem and leaving it switched off for a period of time? Preferably overnight, but at least for an hour or so.
It's not unusual for oscillating SNRM to occur after a power outage/power cut.
Nor is it unique to FTTC - it used to happen with my old Voyager 2100 in the days of maxdsl after a power cut or even if someone just turned the leccy off at the mains without me switching the router off first.
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Hey kitz,
That actually never crossed my mind to do that. That'll explain why the downstream and the upstream (For a little while) was spiking. All that has stopped now.
Would that account for the odd connection drops I get and the downstream speed loss or gains? It used to be very stable up until the power cut.
I'm still surprised DLM hasn't intervened yet. I'm still on fastpath.
I am getting a new router sent to me by TalkTalk. So in theory that should be my fix...hopefully. (Super positive honest!)
Honestly thanks for the idea though. I'll know what to try in future. :D
I've just left everything well alone since that fateful day.
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An oven in the kitchen caused the power to trip everything in the house. !
I’d be interested to know more on that ‘oven’ factor?
I’m making an assumption, which may be wrong, that your house RCD tripped? If so, you cannot assume that because it coincided with use of the oven, the oven was to blame. It may simply be the straw that broke the camel’s back.
In any event, if the house RCD tripped it is likely that a faulty electrical component exists somewhere in the house. It could be an appliance - kettles and dishwashers are common offenders, or maybe the oven, or maybe a component of your CH system, or just too many PCs, the list is long. Until that fault is identified and rectified, there is a risk that the same electrical fault may also have a side effect of interfering with broadband.
I’d be astonished if the router had suffered any damage, or if a new router made any difference whatsoever, but I’ve been astonished before, so you never know... I wish you luck. :)
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Hi sevenlayermuddle,
Before we had the internet installed this happened when we used it. At the moment no disposable income to rectify the problem. It's 100% the oven. So we don't use it right now.
Thanks for your input.
Quick edit;
Whenever it's used to bake something within 30 seconds it would trip the electric it would cause the power to go off. The kettle, microwave, slow cooker, fridge etc don't cause such an issue. Obviously the oven is the cause. This is the first time it happened since having the broadband in use and this happen.
Since nothing else causes this problem that's my point of reference. So I'm under the impression something went skew-whif afterwards as before it happened it was fine. The only reason it happened was because my mother forgot about it causing that issue. But hey lesson learnt now lol. ;D
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Not sure why power cuts can sometimes affect SNRM, but it can do.
Like I say, I've been aware of this for a long time back to the days when I was using MRTG with a Voyager 2100.
Because of the difficulty in setting up MRTG, not many people used to be able monitor line stats, so it was seldom seen and not that well known about. Its only since routerstats and now DSLstats that more people have observed it occuring on their own line.
At first I thought it was unique to the Voyager, but same thing would happen with a DG834GT. Since then I've seen it on several other modems Ive owned.
Just restarting the modem from within the GUI seldom clears it and you need to do a full power down of the modem and leave it off for a while. iirc it's b*cat who calls it giving the DSLAM port time to rest.
>> if the house RCD tripped it is likely that a faulty electrical component exists somewhere in the house
You have a point there. My oven and one adjoining socket is on its own switch in the consumer unit. Various parts of the house lighting are also on their own switch and say for example if a light bulb blows then it will trip out say all front upstairs lighting, but its seldom that anything takes out the main switch. I wonder if its possible that the oven is on the same ring as the socket the modem is plugged into.
There is the possibility the modem could have been damaged and/or something else which is now causing EMI.
I'm not an electrician but IMHO the oven needs to be disconnected if it keeps tripping everything. :/
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Hey kitz,
Thanks for giving me more info about things I've actually screenshot some things to keep as notes later down the line.
The oven hasn't been unplugged but when not in use it's not tripped the electric. Only when it's actually turned on then give or take 30 seconds; Everything is off.
When not in use everything is running fine so that's why it's been left as is. The hob works fine we get around it by using old fashioned matches to light the gas. I like bacon.
I was told via text the router came today and its the D-Link 3782 which is TalkTalk's newest router. I can't set it up now as I'm still at work.
Later on I can set up and replace it all.
I'm again still surprised DLM has never interleaved me. Still fastpath. Pings last night whilst gaming were 10ms and as high as 12ms.
Anywho thanks again everyone. I'll have to update TalkTalk about the router later and I'll update you guys either later or tomorrow about how it's gone with the new router. ;D
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In the case of an external power cut, ie failure of the whole street supply, I can imagine reasons why DSL could perform differently afterwards. In the process of restoring power, some engineer from the supplier will have fixed a fault and in doing so, may have disturbed, or altered, something else. For example last time we had a power cut, after it was ‘restored’ I checked the voltage and it was way below legal minimum. I then had to reported that as a new fault, which was duly rectified.
But if the whole house trips in a fairly modern house, it is probably an RCD that has activated. These devices detect any imbalance between live and neutral, so they will trip if an appliance has leakage to earth. Their starring role is to trip if a human touches a live wire, hopefully cutting the supply before death occurs, so they are impressively sensitive and pretty much instantaneous. Tripping current is usually 30mA, about 1/1000th of the current it might take to blow a main circuit fuse or MCB. No big flash and bang, just a gentle ‘clunk’ as the power is removed.
But as far as the router is concerned, as far as I can see, a tripping RCD would be no different from simply switching it off at the mains socket. And resetting the RCD is just like switching it on again, hence I can’t see any reason for lasting effects. It may be worth wandering around the house with an AM radio, listening for noises... especially perhaps, near the oven?
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All set up now.
Glad to see my speeds back and all.
New stats from the D-LINK;
UpLink / DownLink
SNR Margin: 9.6 dB / 6.0 dB
Line Attenuation: 0.1 dB / 2.9 dB
Output Power: -12.3 dbm / 13.2 dbm
Data Rate: 20000 kbps / 79999 kbps
ES: 0 / 1
SES: 0 / 0
UAS: 79 / 79
FEC: 3 / 0
CRC: 0 / 2
I have taken into account what you said too sevenlayer muddle. It's kinda over my head but I'll research it some more myself. Thanks.
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Thanks for the update, a good outcome.
Glad to see your line is performing well again, even if it is not what I predicted. :)
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Hey sevenlayermuddle,
In a way I was expecting this. In another there was indeed some doubt. But from what it looks like it has solved the problem. Especially since it was taking a toll on my downstream, I'm giving it a week and I can conclusively say for sure it's A-Okay.
I've taken your and Kitz advice into future consideration. Screenshot and added to notes (Which is always handy to have) so thank you ever so much.
I'll update you guys again in a week or so if you're still interested. I'm doing the same for the guys on the TalkTalk forum.
So for now take care and thank you all again for your inputs.
:)
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Now all you need to do is get the heating element replaced in the oven, which is the most likely culprit. The part would probably cost around £20.
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Is the oven on a separate breaker in the distribution box as Kitz described?
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An electric oven should be on its own circuit to the consumer unit with its own fuse/mcb. Easy way to test is to see if only the oven is isolated if you manually throw the mcb.
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It is true the cooker should be on a separate circuit. But there is often also a ‘whole house’ RCD, common to all circuits. Small leakage currents in the cooker will then trip the ‘whole house’ RCD, without affecting the cooker’s fuse or MCB. That is correct operation.
The cooker may also be on a circuit that by-passes the main RCD, or the cooker circuit may have a separate RCD that’s comined with the MCB (RCBO), but I don’t think that’s very common. Or if more than 10-20 years old, there may be no RCD at all, but in that case it’d be worth getting a wiring update.
Incidentally RCDs need regular testing, and should have a label attached to that effect, you press a button that simulates a fault, to make it trip. I recently tested the one in my own fusebox and it didn’t work, no longer providing protection, I had to get an Electrician in to replace it...
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Hi
Basically all that has happened is the modem has been turned off then back on again, the RCD tripping and cutting the power is no different to what is happening day in day out up and down the country when people power recycle their modem. The switch on the back of modems/routers do nothing more than cut the power dead in the same way a RCD tripping would.
There is a possibility that when the whole power is cut to the house there is some spike introduced by everything shutting down at the same time which might have damaged the modem or it's power supply, so a new one would rule that out.
It may just be a co-incidence that a degradation in the line is seen after the cut off power, also if the modem hadn't resync'd for a while, then the resync may have seen the modems power output changed in order to prevent crosstalk for new subscribers that have come online. Each sync is essentially a unique event, no too are ever quite the same.
Regards
Phil