Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: AnnieMacD on October 19, 2017, 05:53:00 PM
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I live in a very remote area in the north-west of Scotland (Applecross, Wester Ross). We have download speeds of 0.5 Mbps and upload of 0.2 Mbps (yes, really). Very recently, two green cabinets have appeared – one is just outside the exchange, and the other is a mile north. I live 1.5 miles south of the exchange.
About three weeks ago I went to the website www.hie.co.uk (http://www.hie.co.uk) (Highlands and Islands Enterprise which is responsible for the roll-out) and entered my phone number. No luck – message saying I’m on an EO line and fibre has not been rolled out yet. I then put in a neighbour’s number (she lives about 0.5 miles from the cabinet) and whoa! “Great News! You are connected to cabinet number 1 on Applecross exchange. It looks like you can get fibre broadband straightaway with predicted speed of up to 48.79 Mbps (FTTC). …” I called her immediately and, to cut a long story short, she is now connected as are all her immediate neighbours within 1 mile of the exchange.
So, to get to my point and questions. Firstly, please be patient as I just started yesterday to try and unravel the technicalities and possibilities for the rest of us. It seems impossible to find anything out from BT and I submitted questions to Openreach but they say it can take up to 28 days to respond.
Second, I frequently see references to the magical 1 mile radius from the cabinet, but logic would dictate that nothing particular happens at a mile so…. Online I found a graph which maps Downlink connection speed v Distance from street cabinet. I reckon that, according to this graph, at 1.5 miles from the cabinet I could get approx. 12Mbps download speed. Compared with my current 0.5 Mbps, this sounds like heaven to me!
Thirdly, I don’t want to jeopardise more cabinets being installed south of the exchange, but, as no fibre cable has been laid, I don’t think it’s going to happen any time soon.
My questions are: 1) is it possible for BT (the only provider here) to connect a group of customers who live more than 1 mile from the cabinet to that cabinet? 2) Will they do it? 3) What will the customers need to do (eg., I assume we need updated Home Hubs)? 4) Are there any technical issues we should know about? 5) If it's possible, how can we convince them to do it?
I’m aware that Ofcom requires a minimum of 30Mbps for a service to qualify as ‘super-fast’ but we have been paying BT’s ‘standard’ rate for the last 10 years for a measly 0.5 Mbps, so it would be nice to stay on the same contract that is supposed to cover up to 17 Mbps anyway.
Thanks for any advice and information you guys can give me. This is the only site I found that actually has some proper information rather than trying to sell something!
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My questions are: 1) is it possible for BT (the only provider here) to connect a group of customers who live more than 1 mile from the cabinet to that cabinet? 2) Will they do it? 3) What will the customers need to do (eg., I assume we need updated Home Hubs)? 4) Are there any technical issues we should know about? 5) If it's possible, how can we convince them to do it?
Welcome to the forum.
You may find https://www.telecom-tariffs.co.uk/codelook.htm a useful site (as well as http://www.dslchecker.bt.com)
Codelook shows that Cabinet 1 was activated on 7th September 2017 and that some other cabinets on that exchange are being installed/going live in 2018. (where a cabinet is called E x - they are exchange only lines being put into a cabinet so they can then get FTTC)
The FTTC infrastructure is installed by Openreach but as its being funded by a BDUK public subsidy in your area you need to ask Highlands and Islands Enterprise about their roll out plans for your specific address - not Openreach/BT - as HIE decide where fibre is rolled out.
As such, you would be better off chasing HIE for news. The Scottish Government is also looking at expanding the areas HIE will eventually cover (http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2017/07/4529).
Finally, the UK Government is planning on introducing a national 10MB minimum download universal service obligation by 2020.
Openreach would be willing to discuss (https://communityfibre.openreach.co.uk) hooking up a specific area but it will take time and you/your neighbours would need to financially contribute - so its not a quick or cheap solution - and you're probably better off waiting for the USO/HIE to get to you.
I note there may also be a wireless internet soution (http://www.scottishwater.co.uk/about-us/media-centre/news-archive/100215-applecross-broadband) available in Apple Cross
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Just for info purposes .... although Ofcom perceive 30+Mbps as 'Super-fast' ..... the Government don't. They say 24+Mbps is.
I gather you reside in Camusterrach ???
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Just for info purposes .... although Ofcom perceive 30+Mbps as 'Super-fast' ..... the Government don't. They say 24+Mbps is.
I gather you reside in Camusterrach ???
I wish I was in Camusterrach - they are all on Cabinet 1. I'm in Culduie which is 1 mile south :(
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Hmmm ..... a very rough measure of the distance from PCP1 to mid-Culduie is approx. 1.6miles. ..... the 'feed' for your locality appears to be mainly overhead cable (Aerial cable), which runs almost parallel to the main road back into Applecross.
As such, the copper wire poundage (thickness) is likely to be 0.5mm, as opposed to if the 'feed' was underground fed, and there could be a chance it would be 0.9mm poundage. The higher the poundage = the better the speed.
This is purely my own opinion and a bit of a guess, but Miltown (where Cab2 is situated to the North), appears to be fed purely via underground duct and this would make it easier 'blowing in' a fibre cable from the Exchange. Whereas as mooted, your locality has a high amount of overhead feed cable (telegraph poles).
My only other concern would be that you should be getting more than 0.5Mbps download even on your current broadband connection, based on your distance from the Exchange ??
I can only assume you are on ADSL broadband (up to 8Mbps), as opposed to ADSL2/2+ (up to 24Mbps) ??? There is a way of checking to see if your Exchange has ADSL2+ technology available, and I'm sure someone will be along shortly to enlighten you ??. :)
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Just for info purposes .... although Ofcom perceive 30+Mbps as 'Super-fast' ..... the Government don't. They say 24+Mbps is.
The phase 1 projects got to pick & choose between 24 and 30, after the approval of state aid (on the basis that they'd already started).
Round 2 EU approval is now 30Mbps, and so is government guidance:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/2016-nbs-overview
Presumably the ~1% of premises that ended up between 24 and 30Mbps after phase 1 would qualify through speed for inclusion in the new phase, but would unlikely qualify through the "step change" requirement.
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Hmmm ..... a very rough measure of the distance from PCP1 to mid-Culduie is approx. 1.6miles. ..... the 'feed' for your locality appears to be mainly overhead cable (Aerial cable), which runs almost parallel to the main road back into Applecross.
Yes, that's correct - my house is 1.5 miles from the cab but the feed is not overhead cable - it's underground, or more correctly in some parts ON ground as you can see it ::)
This is purely my own opinion and a bit of a guess, but Miltown (where Cab2 is situated to the North), appears to be fed purely via underground duct and this would make it easier 'blowing in' a fibre cable from the Exchange. Whereas as mooted, your locality has a high amount of overhead feed cable (telegraph poles).
They connected Cab2 this week to the Exchange.
My only other concern would be that you should be getting more than 0.5Mbps download even on your current broadband connection, based on your distance from the Exchange ??
I can only assume you are on ADSL broadband (up to 8Mbps), as opposed to ADSL2/2+ (up to 24Mbps) ??? There is a way of checking to see if your Exchange has ADSL2+ technology available, and I'm sure someone will be along shortly to enlighten you ??. :)
Almost certainly ADSL :'(
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I see. The cable prints DO show a UG (Underground) feed (as well as the overhead aerial cable), but it shows it as 'stumped' ... ie: not connected.
The electronic prints are only a guide though. Boots on the ground is the only true way to determine how localities are fed. :)
The downside to the UG cable if it is actually connected, is that it is what we call DIG (Direct in ground) cable ... ie: it doesn't run through ducts (hollow tubes), it literally lies in the ground or on the top of it ;) ;). This is the case for the entirety of its length, according to the prints.
It's all against you I'm afraid ??
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@gt94sss2. Thanks for the links. They all just say that fibre is not available. I will contact HIE and try to get information from them.
How did you find out that Cab1 went live on 7th September and what the plan is for 2018? I have no idea where to look for that kind of information. But the more I know, the more ammunition I have to get something done. Most of us here are self-employed and use the internet as the main method of doing business. It's beyond frustrating to work at the speeds we have and, strangely enough, it makes it worse to know that you near neighbours have speed in excess of 80x of yours and they are just watching movies. >:(
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I see. The cable prints DO show a UG (Underground) feed (as well as the overhead aerial cable), but it shows it as 'stumped' ... ie: not connected.
The electronic prints are only a guide though. Boots on the ground is the only true way to determine how localities are fed. :)
The downside to the UG cable if it is actually connected, is that it is what we call DIG (Direct in ground) cable ... ie: it doesn't run through ducts (hollow tubes), it literally lies in the ground or on the top of it ;) ;). This is the case for the entirety of its length, according to the prints.
It's all against you I'm afraid ??
I know. There is no duct or conduit here - the road workers have been known to cut the whole cable while inserting a cattle grid. It took about 6 days to get phone and internet back.
But what of my question of getting us hooked up to Cab1 and maybe get 10Mbps? Is that not a brilliant idea?
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My questions are: 1) is it possible for BT (the only provider here) to connect a group of customers who live more than 1 mile from the cabinet to that cabinet? 2) Will they do it? 3) What will the customers need to do (eg., I assume we need updated Home Hubs)? 4) Are there any technical issues we should know about? 5) If it's possible, how can we convince them to do it?
1) This would be a copper rearrangement, and such things have been known to happen. They're rare even with subsidies available.
2) However, BT would only be able to claim subsidy for the work if you ended up above the superfast threshold. Without that subsidy, there's no chance of it happening.
More likely, BT would consider adding a whole new cabinet - an all-in-one that acts as both PCP wiring cabinet, and the FTTC DSLAM, or a smaller FTTRN device. It would need enough customers, though.
For some examples of a place where this has been happening, take a look at that Codelook website (linked in post #2), and search for location "Leyburn", then exchange "Leyburn, North Yorkshire", then click on "all NN cabinets".
That exchange started out with 9 cabinets, and all of them have been converted to FTTC via the BDUK project. The other 8 cabinets (10-20, missing some numbers) have been added as "infill" to cope with the EO lines in different locations, or the long lines off other cabs. Cab 10 was one of the pilot FTTRN nodes (supports 16 lines), so is perhaps a little special.
It should give an idea of the kind of changes that BT can end up doing as they get ever harder-pressed to cover premises.
3) Whatever gain comes from FTTC only comes via VDSL2, which requires a different router/modem.
4) Whatever happens, it is most likely through co-operation with the HIE Broadband project. They may react better to a community coordinator.
As someone else said, there is the possibility to go via BT's community fibre partnership, but you'd need to provide some of the funding yourselves. I don't know if HIE has a part of their project that works with communities in this way, and partly funds the venture - some local authorities have started this up, but it is a a relatively new idea.
5) Money. If HIE won't fund you, it is because they can use the same money to reach more people in another location.
and, strangely enough, it makes it worse to know that you near neighbours have speed in excess of 80x of yours and they are just watching movies. >:(
Do you have line of sight to any of them? Looking on streetview, I suspect not, but if you did, then you could have a go at a point-to-point wireless link
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Not my forte, I'm afraid .......... however from a personal point of view I don't know why they haven't already connected your DP's to PCP1 ??
I know from experience that sometimes the DP's ARE connected to the new FTTC Cabs but, don't get logged onto the records for whatever reason ??
Conversely, we have also had a recent problem whereby the 'Availability checker' said a certain DP WAS connected to the FTTC Cab, but in reality it wasn't. :(
Without knowing the true attenuation of your circuit (as opposed to distance by mtrs), it's hard to say exactly what speeds you would get on FTTC or indeed ADSL2+ ?? Going off just distance-based theories, it would be pretty much the same speed from either technologies ??
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Do you have line of sight to any of them? Looking on streetview, I suspect not, but if you did, then you could have a go at a point-to-point wireless link
No line of sight - it's very hilly here. As for a community co-ordinator - hmm, maybe another job I can take on.
Thanks for your detailed response, I shall study it and try to learn all the terms and acronyms. I'll also look Leyburn up and see what they did there.
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Not my forte, I'm afraid .......... however from a personal point of view I don't know why they haven't already connected your DP's to PCP1 ??
Maybe there is some unstated plan for infill, but the value-for-money case would be worsened if some premises were temporarily uplifted in speed. Say they didn't quite reach superfast levels, so wouldn't earn subsidy in the first PCP, but got high enough that an infill wouldn't count as a sufficient step change, so they can't earn subsidy there either?
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Fair point W3 .... :)
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No line of sight - it's very hilly here.
Presuming you're somewhere near Woodside House, the following could be options, especially if all neighbours club together.
There does look like line of site across the bay to Camusterrach from here (https://goo.gl/maps/GQn13ixYA4x) and then up to these houses (https://goo.gl/maps/NMwne5W6Uj22), would require a transmitter, relay and receiver set up presuming there is power available.
There's also line of sight to Camusterrach from here (https://goo.gl/maps/adLTk8eSL6B2) and power.
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That view, across the bay, reminded me of a place where Openreach ran "Wireless to the cabinet": Scalpay.
Story here on ISPreview (https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/06/openreach-deploy-wireless-cabinet-broadband-scalpay-island.html)
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Presuming you're somewhere near Woodside House, the following could be options, especially if all neighbours club together.
There does look like line of site across the bay to Camusterrach from here (https://goo.gl/maps/GQn13ixYA4x) and then up to these houses (https://goo.gl/maps/NMwne5W6Uj22), would require a transmitter, relay and receiver set up presuming there is power available.
There's also line of sight to Camusterrach from here (https://goo.gl/maps/adLTk8eSL6B2) and power.
Ah, so that's another option. OK, I'll mention that to HIE as it may be cheaper than laying cable. There is no power down at then shore but it's not far away.
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That view, across the bay, reminded me of a place where Openreach ran "Wireless to the cabinet": Scalpay.
Story here on ISPreview (https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/06/openreach-deploy-wireless-cabinet-broadband-scalpay-island.html)
That's what we need! I haven't figured it out but currently there is no fibre cable coming into Applecross - they are just laying the conduit now. So could this be how it's coming into the exchange in the first place? I must say everyone was pretty surprised when we saw the cabinets pop up.
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Your exchange is too small to have all the exchange-based hardware for FTTC, so the cabinets are likely fibre-cabled back to a larger parent exchange. That cable doesn't have to go via your exchange, if there is a better route back.
However, BT are also in the process of upgrading all the remaining small ADSL-only exchanges to ADSL2+ with 21CN fibre.
I wonder if what you are seeing is the ducting for the exchange, separate to the cabinets?
Yes, the timing can be strange. In 2011, my 11,000-line exchange got FTTC cabinets (with their 21CN backhaul) before it got ADSL2+ and 21CN.
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Actually, you can see from the map on this Youtube video (https://youtu.be/5ZU5tvBUwZM?t=643) that you're now not that far from a wholly new section of BT's 21CN backhaul, running Kyle-Lochcarron-Gairloch.
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How did you find out that Cab1 went live on 7th September and what the plan is for 2018?
1. Go to https://www.telecom-tariffs.co.uk/codelook.htm
2. Search using your phone number.
3. In the results, choose the link for Applecross, Strathcarron, Ross-shire.
4. Choose the link with says "All 13 Fibre Cabinets" and scroll down.
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Actually, you can see from the map on this Youtube video (https://youtu.be/5ZU5tvBUwZM?t=643) that you're now not that far from a wholly new section of BT's 21CN backhaul, running Kyle-Lochcarron-Gairloch.
It may look like it's not far, but there is a 620m mountain pass in between. :D
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8586/29522069071_1f3b62ab41_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/LYLjAT)Bealach na Ba, Applecross (https://flic.kr/p/LYLjAT) by Annie MacDonald (https://www.flickr.com/photos/anniemacd/), on Flickr
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1. Go to https://www.telecom-tariffs.co.uk/codelook.htm
2. Search using your phone number.
3. In the results, choose the link for Applecross, Strathcarron, Ross-shire.
4. Choose the link with says "All 13 Fibre Cabinets" and scroll down.
Wow, I didn't see this before. There will be a cab right next to my house. The next question is, when? But we've waited 10 years, a few more months won't make much difference. Thanks! ;D
Edit: I just realized, these are not cabinets but the existing ADSL 'exchanges'. The status just says that 'Fibre not available'. I guess I was premature in getting excited :(
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Edit: I just realized, these are not cabinets but the existing ADSL 'exchanges'. The status just says that 'Fibre not available'. I guess I was premature in getting excited :(
I believe they are where bundles of cables from the exchange emerge so they can in fact become cabinets
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It may look like it's not far, but there is a 620m mountain pass in between. :D
A tad more vertical than horizontal, then ;)
Great picture. Great scenery too.
Edit: I just realized, these are not cabinets but the existing ADSL 'exchanges'. The status just says that 'Fibre not available'. I guess I was premature in getting excited :(
Codelook's positioning isn't perfect. It tends to use some form of aggregate of all the postcodes served by the "thing", and set the green blob in some aggregate average location. It doesn't get it right, much.
Then the "thing" could be a cabinet, or it could just be one bundle of EO lines, labelled "Exchange N". What you need, at some point, is the EO bundle re-arranging into a cabinet somewhere.
When BT are in the process of adding cabinets to an exchange, then some of the postcode data goes awry, so Codelook loses positioning totally.
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Oh, OK, so sort of back to square one then. In any case, thanks for all the information and I do feel that I know more now so that I can ask semi-intelligent questions of HIE.
Unfortunately, there are some drawbacks to living in such a beautiful place!
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Alas, this won't help the OP's situation in any way, but the thread title may bring others here looking for information.
As such, I thought it might be worth mentioning that of late (the last 6months or so), I've personally noticed quite a bit of 'Re-parenting' work going on.
This appears to be going on, where existing FTTC customers sees them only getting poor speeds due to the long D-side line-lengths.
Basically a new 'Combined VDSL Cab' will be plonked a lot nearer to the EU's locality, thus allowing the low-performing circuits to be migrated over to the new Cab, and ... I suppose open up the opportunity for other EU's who were initially too far away, to get FTTC broadband ??.