Kitz Forum
Chat => Chit Chat => Topic started by: Chrysalis on September 23, 2017, 01:37:42 AM
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Starting October 1st.
I am pretty shocked, the UK as we know with how broadband is regulated by ofcom is very heavy a competition economy. Yet this decision has removed an innovator that was shaking up the taxi industry.
I am a heavy user of taxis and can give an idea how much better uber is.
I used to use citylink in Leicester for most journeys, typically you would need to book at least 2 hours in advance to be sure of a slot, and if it was during busy times, you could expect it to be late, but not know how much its late as was common practice for the operator to lie to me on the phone "just round the corner mate", 10 mins later still no taxi
I needed cash on hand to pay the drivers, and had no record of journeys unless asking for a receipt which typically was price written on a card with the taxi branding on it.
Uber, I book using my phone on the app, its a transaction that is fully automated, everytime I have made a booking its been accepted by a driver within 5 seconds. Never ever waiting, maybe 10% of the time the taxi driver is doing a dropoff, but that dropoff is close to me on their way to me, so in those situations is maybe a delay of 1-2 mins at the most. The drivers are always my side of town and usually within 5 streets when accepting the job. I can track them on GPS so know where they are, and if I know they coming from the wrong way to pick me up on the side of the road I am on, I can cross the road in advance ready as well. Payment is automated no cash needed.
I also get every 11th journey free on a barclaycard offer. For me the cost is on average about 10% down, what I would used to spend, plus another 10% for the offer so maybe 20% saving although occasionally there is surge charging which makes it expensive, for me the gain is how much more convenient and reliable the service is versus a traditional taxi service.
Uber also allows you or the driver to contact each other should there be a problem with the taxi driver finding you.
The drivers I have chatted to, prefer it as well, most of them used to work for the traditional firms and are working full time for uber. They e.g. now get guaranteed payment as its automated, they can accept jobs near where they are, whilst a normal taxi firm could make them travel across town to their next job. They can log off the system whenever they want so the hours are basically flexible.
Just signed the petition which has only been up for a matter of hours and is fast heading to the million mark already.
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We've muttered about this subject before, Chrys, and I too am a massive fan of Uber when I wander in to Manchester.
I haven't read the reasons as to why London have decided as they have, but I heard a snippet on the radio suggesting it was partly due to the "Publics safety" ??
I may try and find time to read up on it later, off to work now. :(
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Having worked in and around London for years when working I have always been a fan of Black Cabs. I think in London in particular the safety issue is a real one, there is no real vetting of Uber drivers like there is for Black Cabs plus how many Uber drivers know how to get from A to B in London without a sat nav especially when confronted with a traffic jam or accident etc., plus how many can be sure of taking the quickest route. I have lost count of the number of black cab rides I have taken in London and it always amazed me when we dived off down a side street always to emerge in the right place at the right time.
If a Black Cab has an accident or breakdown it is off the road until properly assessed and if a Black Cab driver commits a crime or even a motoring offence he risks being off the road permanently.
Now if Uber wants to work in London they simply must have a very strict open and fair vetting procedure for their drivers and ensure they have no criminal past. Also they must vet the vehicles and ensure correct insurance is in place and not leave any of this up to the drivers to sort. I'm sure that there are a lot of very trustworthy folk driving for them BUT and in my view it's a big BUT I do not believe that they have done enough to prove that no less desirable drivers are behind the wheel or god forbid ones with no or inadequate insurance.
I do not think it fair to compare Uber with Black Cabs in London they are completely different, however comparison with private hire is valid.
Their business model might be great in principle but as in so many cases companies try to do this on the cheap and complain when they are challenged because their implementation is flawed, which in my view is the issue with Uber. Even their bosses have had issues and have had to resign over them.
Stuart
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I’m also a big fan of the London black cabs. The professionalism of the drivers, and the regulations that control them, render them pretty unique. Uber may have a place in other cities, but not in London, imho.
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Looks like you're in a minority
Uber petition to save ride-hailing app in London passes 500,000 signatures within 24 hours
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Some decent points made above, but have there been many .... or any ..... criminal cases raised against Uber drivers in London ??
In the same vein, have there been any brought to Black Cab drivers ?? If so, what are the figures for both ??
There has to be some kind of distinction brought to bear, before 'we' start to just dismiss a public service, surely ??
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It would be interesting to see the geographic distribution of people signing the petition. Don’t know whether change.org displays that or not, I couldn’t see it anywhere...?
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I'm in two minds about Uber, the way the app is designed and works is excellent and really has changed the game which I think has benefited everyone. On the other hand, they pay next to no tax and there are safety issues reported.
I wish tfl would launch something like Uber but for black cabs. They'd make a killing.
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Totally agree .......... the app is absolute genius ....... and of course they are always cheaper than black cabs. Yes, I know the reasons why, it's just folk will generally opt for the cheaper fare.
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I always had the impression that London's taxi market worked differently from most of the rest of the country.
That is ... London has always had an antagonistic market between the hail-anywhere black cabs/hackney carriages, and the book-in-advance private hire cabs. The latter "minicabs" (a name that seems to only stick in London) have a subgroup that is seen as rogue, unregulated, cheap, but rather unsafe: Minicab drivers willing to take on hailed fares, and in some cases bypassing safety checks. It has historically taken a lot of work to keep the rogue elements off the streets.
In our smaller cities (I'm thinking about the ~300,000 population places), the focus is much more private hire, with rather fewer hail-anywhere cabs. Much less of an antagonistic nature, and much less of a problem with the rogue element. I suspect people are just used to the "book in advance" nature of private hire.
The bigger cities - Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds - seem to have more hailable cabs, but don't seem to have the antagonistic nature either, and are still lower on the rogue scale.
So what about Uber?
It seems to make private-hire cars into a near-hailing experience, but for less money.
Outside London, that drops it firmly into a competitive environment, but where rogues are not the norm. In London, however, it looks like it feeds directly into the market that the rogue elements used to inhabit. Given the history, I can certainly see why the London councils want to keep it firmly under their thumb. The question is whether the rogues have switched to Uber...
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I can see both sides in this - ie how consumers want a cheaper product... and conversely about Ubers practices.
Whilst I appreciate that it may work well in other cities, from what I can gather there was some very real concerns about how Uber operated in London deeming them not fit and proper.
When it amounts to security and safety for passengers, and exploitation of employees then without doubt I think that TFL did the right thing.
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Thinking more upon it, tfl decided that Uber were not ‘fit and proper’.
It was not just a rogue employee after too many beers, or a rogue Mayor on an election campaign, it was an official statement from tfl. That statement will have been scrutinised at umpteen levels to make sure it could be justified in court, and vetted by lawyers to ensure the individual who issued the statement was showing due diligence. In short, it wasn’t a rant. The only reason for not making that statement would have been ‘fear of Uber’.
Regardless of whether or not you use and/or like Uber, and regardless of whether Uber or tfl end up winning the argument, let’s maybe let’s at least support tfl for standing up to bullying from $multibillion American corporations?
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As I said its not just about price but in how the app itself has revolutionised the taxi business.
There is equivalent to black cabs in every city, Leicester has them as well, most often parked outside of the train station, they are of course super expensive as you have the meter running. Uber pricing is not much cheaper than pre booked taxi service (in my opinion about 10%). Does London have pre booking fixed price taxi services without meters or do black cabs have a monopoly?
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@chrysalis
The point is, TFL will have considered all these points, and I assume will be able to prove they have done so. Else, they would not have made their statements.
So, since we can assume that TFL have done all research and genuinely believe their position to be justifiable, should we not be supporting them in this UK-based David vs US-based Goliath battle?
BTW I still await response to my earlier question, re geographic distribution of petitioners. How many are actually Londoners? How many are even UK? I’d really like to know the answers.
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They will back down, market demand will force the issue. You dont think TFL have been extensively lobbied by the black cabs before this decision?
Do you know 7LM if there is standard taxi firms in london? as to me riding in a uber isnt much different to that, the drivers I spoke to said they using the same vehicles as they did for those taxi firms.
According to uber there is background checks carried out on drivers, just not directly, they use a 3rd party.
If the taxi drivers can do a go slow protest, I think 500k+ people are also capable of a protest.
On the poll I got no idea how many are londoners, uber sent me the poll, knowing I dont live in london. But does that mean I will never in my lifetime perhaps want to use uber in london, or I shouldnt care because it doesnt affect me right now? Sorry I am not one of those people who only cares about #1.
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Personally I think Uber is a great service and idea, I have used it a few times and it feels so much more customer focused and easy. My view on the ban has gone 180 degrees since I started talking to a friend who drives a cab and applied for an Uber license and told me how it works and I started reading about the issue.
The problem for me is that Uber will take 25% of the money paid to the drivers, demand they sign exclusive contracts with them (they can't work for anyone else) and then deny they are employees or to take any responsibility for them as an employer.
"A tribunal last year ruled that they should be treated like minicab drivers with minimum wage rights and sick pay, but Uber is appealing against that decision"
(BBC website)
The "we are just a software company" approach is a big threat to employees rights and customers alike and and an excuse by Uber for not complying or paying the cost of employment law designed to protect "normal" people i.e. employees and customers
That's why personally I think London has been brave and correct in implementing a ban. It's worth pointing out that a significant and growing number of other cities and countries have done the same thing.
I wonder how cheap an Uber would be compared to a Black Cab if they actually had to comply with employment law like other UK companies. There are also reports that it is running at a loss simply to gain market share ..... this article (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/05/am-i-being-uber-touchy-ethics-minicab-app), written before the ban, is interesting
What we need is an ethical version of Uber offering the same cool app and features but with employees who are respected and that complies with the law in the country in which it operates, it will almost certainly be more expensive.....
Ultimately, of course, driverless vehicles will make this largely irrelevant in the not-too distant future :D
o/
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Having read that article quoted by Chunkers I am even more supportive of the TFL position. Uber are simply not playing fair (or fare ;) ) either with the drivers or the public. Their business practices alone deserve them to be banned, it is simply not good enough to behave this way and the apparent culture of the company is despicable.
Stuart
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Not all drivers will like uber, but I can only say the ones I spoke to like working for uber.
Yes uber take a cut, but the drivers do better, as they dont do trips that are unpaid and also can start a new trip close to one they ending which means more time spent driving paying customers around instead of in between fares.
If uber was so bad to drivers, then they wouldnt have anyone working for them.
Also during surge pricing they make much more money per job than from with normal taxi firms.
Also chunkers I agree about the employments rights issue, but thats an issue with law rather than uber, uber have took the approach where its drivers are self employed presumably to take advantage of a law that is weak for self employed workers. If you close these loopholes in the law then companies like uber would be different in that respect. However I dont think this is the only reason, the founder of uber has not created a taxi company, he has created an app as a frontend to bring drivers and customers together, he would just bloat his company if he employed drivers directly along with all the baggage that brings.
I cannot see how that has any impact on TFL at all, why would they care how a driver is employed and paid? What has likely impacted TFL is all the lobbying thats occurred from the black cab drivers, who refuse to update their methods and pricing to deal with a competitor. I am not saying uberis not less safe, as I dont know, but I am also not claiming it is more safe, I think when black cab drivers say that they are speculating.
Black cabs overcharge, my view wont change on that, this is proven by the fact that pre paid fixed price taxi firms are much cheaper and not going bankrupt. These firms have been around way longer than uber. Uber pricing is not unreasonable when you take that into consideration as with uber costs are removed by not having a operating directing the taxis. However I speculate that uber has lost black cab drivers a lot of business, the downside with fixed price taxis is typically you need to pre book them and cannot get them easily on demand, uber changed that as I mentioned you can go on the app and get the job accepted right away, this would surprise me if it hasnt lost black cab drivers lots of work. Which I think is the real reason we have got this situation.
Uber is as a service to be fair just a app frontend that brings drivers and their passengers together.
There is other companies that take the same approach as uber with employment and have not been banned in london.
Amazon logistics.
Deliveroo
Uber eats
Deliveroo I am aware has also been in the press tho related to employees rights.
Everyone who has called for them to be banned has not really commented on the drivers losing their livelyhood and the customers affected having to start using an inferior more expensive service again, I guess that all doesnt matter?
Also to me there is an obvious question that hasnt been answered, if uber dont comply with TFL's requirements, why was there license even issued in the first place? Remember this is a refusal to "RENEW" a license not "GRANT" it for the first time.
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No matter, what praise is given Uber by some users, and persons who see an opportunity for political mischief, it is a fact that Uber have had problems worldwide] (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/09/22/has-uber-run-trouble-around-world/). London would not seem out of step, and so I can see no plot against Uber
Uber's problems mean opportunity knocks for some, and now Lyft (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/09/23/uber-arch-rival-lyft-holds-talks-transport-london-plots-global/) makes its entrance. Muddy water?
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renluop note many of those instances originated from lobbying from existing taxi drivers in those countries, the only real cause of concern I found there was the india incident.
If lyft launched in london it will most definitely get the same sort of opposition from the same black cab drivers.
Uber are appealing, we will see if the courts agree with whats happened or if the TFL back down before then.
Also i am still curious to see if there is fixed price cab firms in london and if they follow the same so called strict regulations that black cabs follow, no one has commented on that.
If you think no government, council or governing body has ever been influenced by lobbying then you are naive. :) Of course I have no doubt uber themselves have been involved in lobbying as well, everyone is at it.
Also how many people here who replied actually ever rely on taxis?
Also who do you consider the most important.
The black cab drivers?
The uber drivers?
The customers using these services?
Other concerns?
http://hub.unlock.org.uk/worth-applying-local-council-taxi-licence-criminal-record/
What is actually specifically dangerous about uber, I would love to hear the proven cases or is it just accepting what been told by the black cab drivers? thanks.
All of uber's uk drivers are licenced and approved by councils so have passed the above check.
Quote from uber's website.
Do you have a private hire licence?
In order to drive on the Uber app, you'll need a private hire licence from a council that Uber is licensed by. If you don't have one
https://www.uber.com/en-GB/drive/requirements/
Unless uber are blatantly lieing on their website, this is the truth about unvetted drivers. So Uber are not skipping the law on driver vetting.
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I am not naive be it about the Uber side or its opponents, but thanks for your insufficiently disguised insult. ::) ;D
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Another example of Uber’s disregard for rules, secretly tagging iPhones in violation of Apple policies...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/04/24/tim-cook-threatened-kick-uber-app-store-iphone-tracking/
Not to mention their famous ‘greyball’..
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/03/uber-secret-program-greyball-resignation-ed-baker
Just not a company that I’d feel comfortable using, unless as a last resort. There may be places where one has to stoop to such a last resort, but London is not one of them.
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again you just googling for stuff on news sites.
Greyball not used in the UK.
In regards to apple, I doubt that would be a valid reason for banning uber by the TFL.
I addressed the claims that somehow uber drivers are not vetted, and posted information they are vetted by individual councils as they need a license to supplied by a council to work for uber.
Are you trying to say London has no need for a on demand taxi service that has GPS tracking, automated online payment and prices that arent a ripoff?
I think this decision will struggle to stand up in court because I spent an hour or so earlier looking at UK legislation and what uber are doing and it looks to me as the TFL have made a odd decision, from what I can see, if they have decided Uber are unsafe, then they need to make the same decision for every private hire firm. This I think wont stand up in court.
Also I wonder how the TFL will answer the inevitable question as to why the license was originally approved if Uber didnt comply with safety regulation.
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I am not naive be it about the Uber side or its opponents, but thanks for your insufficiently disguised insult. ::) ;D
No problem, but you are welcome to correct me.
Was I wrong in believing you were suggesting that state regulators are never influenced by lobbying?
The problems worldwide you pointed out are almost entirely driven by rival taxi drivers been upset at the new competition, this I agree is a problem uber has encountered in many countries.
I do have an idea of black cab pricing in Leicester, since a family member recently used one.
A trip from the city centre to fosse park which is about 3 miles cost £17 in poor traffic (black cabs meter goes up in traffic jams etc.).
If I enter this on the uber app it is estimated at £5-6, potentially £12 if surge pricing.
This would suggest citylink would probably be about £5.50-£6.50 based on my experience.
Someone like citylink wouldnt need to do much to undercut uber as they already comparable pricing, if they felt they needed to, but you can see the real reason why black cab drivers are not happy, with the prices they have got used to charging.
I am not a fan of the tories but I felt boris comments when he was mayor was right.
Also whilst I am a strong believer in employees rights and job security, things like zero hour contracts and self employment are sharply on the rise in this country. Uber are not alone in this respect and it also wouldnt be a viable reason for the TFL to ban uber either, unless they could prove they are actually flouting employment laws, which from what I can tell from my limited research they not.
I accept a good debate, but the debate seems weak, it seems to be based on "well uber have been in the press a lot about bad things so it must mean they should be banned, and the TFL must be right".
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going to leave my thoughts as they are, dont want to get too heated on this, I think we all know I dont want this ban to be upheld but I welcome new information on sound footing that perhaps adds credibility to the TFL decision and what the black cab drivers are saying. So will still check for new replies. :)
Just surprised at the anti uber feeling here, but I guess public opinion is not as strong as I initially thought it was, although I am assuming most of the negativity here is from people who dont regularly use taxis and as such dont appreciate the improvement uber has brought about. Except black sheep who has said he has used them himself. :)
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My wife uses them almost daily, as she works in Manchester for the most part ..... I, from time-to-time.
Could not believe our luck when we were pointed towards this service. Ironically it was 'given' to us in a pub in Manchester's 'Northern Quarter', by a couple from London who had travelled up to watch the Stone Roses gig at the 'Etihad Stadium'.
We had gotten that carried away nattering (never met them before, btw) and drinking, that it was too late to walk the 40mins to the stadium and they suggested we share a taxi. I was getting ready to walk us all down to the nearest taxi-rank when he suggested he book one on Uber. Cannot believe the ease of the whole process and of course the price ...... far, far cheaper than a BC would have been.
Can't comment on the London southern-softie thing ;D as never used it down there, or read anything to do with it before this. But, from first-hand experience I think it's an absolute gem of a service.
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No problem, but you are welcome to correct me.
Was I wrong in believing you were suggesting that state regulators are never influenced by lobbying?
Definitely, I do not so believe, but does the regulator work as am autocrat? I think he/she will act on advice
The problems worldwide you pointed out are almost entirely driven by rival taxi drivers been upset at the new competition, this I agree is a problem uber has encountered in many countries.
I do have an idea of black cab pricing in Leicester, since a family member recently used one.
A trip from the city centre to fosse park which is about 3 miles cost £17 in poor traffic (black cabs meter goes up in traffic jams etc.).
If I enter this on the uber app it is estimated at £5-6, potentially £12 if surge pricing.
This would suggest citylink would probably be about £5.50-£6.50 based on my experience.
Someone like citylink wouldnt need to do much to undercut uber as they already comparable pricing, if they felt they needed to, but you can see the real reason why black cab drivers are not happy, with the prices they have got used to charging.
I am not a fan of the tories but I felt boris comments when he was mayor was right.
Also whilst I am a strong believer in employees rights and job security, things like zero hour contracts and self employment are sharply on the rise in this country. Uber are not alone in this respect and it also wouldnt be a viable reason for the TFL to ban uber either, unless they could prove they are actually flouting employment laws, which from what I can tell from my limited research they not.
I accept a good debate, but the debate seems weak, it seems to be based on "well uber have been in the press a lot about bad things so it must mean they should be banned, and the TFL must be right".
Whatever we think about Uber, Taxis, politics is not really that important. What is, is that the public should be safe. if the answe turns out a yes then Uber continues.
Politically I canary a torch for neither side; the left with its business bashing, nor the right, some of whose members' love of innovation, could well disguise a desire lower standards, and wages, so higher money for themselves.
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The only thing that i'm concerned about is TAX evasion, >:D, they generate lots of profit but again pay very little tax.
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This article in The Guardian about how driver wages have been hit, sums it all up....
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/23/over-uber-london-driver-fares-rivals-work
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Quite
Uber’s model is perfect for customers, who have the convenience of being able to use an app to order a cab while still at home or sitting in a restaurant. Journeys are so cheap that if you’re travelling as a group you’ll sometimes save money by taking an Uber rather than a bus.
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The only thing that i'm concerned about is TAX evasion, >:D, they generate lots of profit but again pay very little tax.
Ha ha .... the thoughts of yester-year. We operate in a very different world in which I was brought up in. There are no scruples anymore, and anyone thinking 'Truth & Justice' will prevail, is an avid reader of Marvel comics.
We live in a time where 'Cash is king' .......... forget the regulatory bodies, they are but a mere inconvenience ...... if YOU really order a taxi and you're first thought is, "Do they pay TAX ???" .... well, you must be living in a utopian village that movie-directors dream of.
This is real-world stuff, it goes on in big cities.
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Ha ha .... the thoughts of yester-year. We operate in a very different world in which I was brought up in. There are no scruples anymore, and anyone thinking 'Truth & Justice' will prevail, is an avid reader of Marvel comics.
We live in a time where 'Cash is king' .......... forget the regulatory bodies, they are but a mere inconvenience ...... if YOU really order a taxi and you're first thought is, "Do they pay TAX ???" .... well, you must be living in a utopian village that movie-directors dream of.
This is real-world stuff, it goes on in big cities.
Yes you may well be right on that but it is a sad indictment of today's modern world. It does not make it a better place....
Stuart
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I recalled a friend of mine saying she worked for them when they launched in her city, then I didnt hear much more.... so I sent her a message to ask why she quit after just a few days. This is what she said:
Money wasn't worth it. It's something you do if you don't have a job or to make extra crash on the side. It's wear and tear on the car, unknown asshole customers, and not worth it if you have a better than minimum wage job. And yes, Uber drivers have attacked customers and vice versa. You just need a licence and a less than 10 year old car that passed inspection to drive. That's it. No background check or anything. Great job for sex offenders.
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Maybe uber had lower requirements when they first launched?
I found this article showing high claimed figures of attacks/rapes from taxi drivers, however this is from taxi drivers as a whole not specific to uber.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/over-400-london-cab-drivers-charged-with-crimes-last-year-a3226396.html
This article mentions a number from uber (a lot lower than the number in the first article). 32 drivers.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1198856/more-than-1000-cabbies-have-been-charged-with-violent-and-sex-attacks-in-just-five-years-across-uk-sun-probe-finds-2/
Obviously this is sourced from the press which means it can be speculated figures, but it doesnt indicate uber is any worse than non uber taxi services, but of course I agree these events shouldnt be happening whether its uber or any other taxi service.
Articles state as I said earlier its the councils that vet drivers.
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Opinions on Uber seem to be very polarised.
I've not had great experience in general with taxi companies in the past, including a sexual assault by one driver on my friend, and when I've used Uber they've been as good as the better taxi companies I've used.
I can't wait to see the evidence that's presented to the court. It'll be an interesting few months, that's for sure.
Tim
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Light relief
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fbusiness%2F2017%2F09%2F24%2FAlex_25092017.gif&hash=2c213daa988eeb3cff488dd53708921d3145cb3d)
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just brought it up with another driver today on the way back, we ran out of time as was very short journey.
He said he pockets about £500 a week after tax which he considers good enough, but wants uber to reduce their cut from 25% to 15% as he thinks its excessive for just an app. He also wants them to have a central office to answer calls to report incidents with taxi drivers. Those are his only 2 concerns.
According to a uber briefing made yesterday to drivers it looks like london will be resolved out of court with uber make a change in how they operate to accommodate a TFL request, to the driver I Spoke to today.
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According to one report I've seen on the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41384499) there may be movement on this after an apology from Uber so the Mayor is willing for talks to happen I believe .
Stuart