Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: Ixel on August 31, 2017, 12:19:01 PM

Title: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on August 31, 2017, 12:19:01 PM
Hi all,
Well, I've got a few problems which may not be local to me necessary but I may as well deal with every possibility. I've recently found that my connection has packet loss in the evening (ISP is Zen), but I can't identify necessarily what's causing it other than noticing a big thread on TBB about Zen and slow single threaded download speeds (which I'm also experiencing).

Anyway, the other day I plugged in the HG612 to see what the QLN, Hlog and other such data was regarding my connection. The moment the HG612 synced I was getting error seconds pretty much every second of uptime. I'm not sure but something is funny with my D3 band, and yes I should've taken a screenshot of the SNRM graph probably prior to capping it so that the modem didn't use much of the D3 band. With all that in mind, I was wondering if maybe someone could help me with interpreting my QLN and Hlog graphs at least (SNRM included but was under capped conditions). See http://imgur.com/a/FBi7z for the graphs.

Question: From the graphs, may I have a possible fault or could this just be a matter beyond my control (e.g. external noise)? Obviously when I was interleaved this problem was pretty much being masked to some degree and I've been interleaved I believe since a day or two after FTTC was installed. I never really gave it any thought until recently when I noticed issues on the D3 band (lots of error seconds and a little fluctuation in the SNR). The homeplugs didn't help with D3 but they are no longer in use and I'm still potentially having problems with D3.

In the meantime Zen are running a continuous ping test on my connection and some other Zen connections at my exchange to identify if there's an exchange end issue (in regards to packet loss and slow single threaded download speeds), hopefully I'll get the results from that later today. ( http://i.imgur.com/TBrMlPW.png )

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Changed topic to be more relevant as I'm more convinced I might have a problem now I observed my SNR fluctuate tonight.
Title: Re: Need help interpreting some graphs please
Post by: kitz on September 01, 2017, 11:31:16 AM
Hlog looks fine.

Both SNRM per tone & QLN indicate a noisy line.  QLN shows as well as being noisy what could be quite a lot of crosstalk from several lines. 
I must emphasise the could though because the SNRM is so messy over those tones too...  but if you ignore some of the messiness from tones 3000, it is showing background signs of the familiar x-talk bumps from tone 3300 +. 


Hlog and QLN are only a snapshot in time.  SNRM and bitload are more current.   Looking at your SNRM you definitely appear to have some sort of EMI/RFI centered on tone 1700 and also affecting most of the D3 tones.

Would be interesting to see a closer view of the D3 tones and also the bit loading graph.  I doubt its anything exchange side.  Whilst a red SVLAN may cause slow speeds, it doesnt cause that effect on your graphs.   What are your errors (Err Secs)  like, that could cause slowness and higher latency through packet loss.   
Title: Re: Need help interpreting some graphs please
Post by: Ixel on September 01, 2017, 11:42:03 AM
Hlog looks fine.

Both SNRM per tone & QLN indicate a noisy line.  QLN shows as well as being noisy what could be quite a lot of crosstalk from several lines. 
I must emphasise the could though because the SNRM is so messy over those tones too...  but if you ignore some of the messiness from tones 3000, it is showing background signs of the familiar x-talk bumps from tone 3300 +. 


Hlog and QLN are only a snapshot in time.  SNRM and bitload are more current.   Looking at your SNRM you definitely appear to have some sort of EMI/RFI centered on tone 1700 and also affecting most of the D3 tones.

Would be interesting to see a closer view of the D3 tones and also the bit loading graph.  I doubt its anything exchange side.  Whilst a red SVLAN may cause slow speeds, it doesnt cause that effect on your graphs.   What are your errors (Err Secs)  like, that could cause slowness and higher latency through packet loss.

I see, thanks. Yeah, if I don't cap the line on the HG612 to avoid using a lot of D3 tones (or cap the max downstream tones to 3000-3100 or so on the ASUS) I get an error second for almost every second of uptime. While capped and using minimal tones in D3 I get a standard small amount of error seconds, perhaps 1 every few minutes at the very least.

Next time I plug the HG612 in, for a few minutes, I'll take a snapshot of the graphs and post them here. Zen have identified a problem at the exchange as some other Zen customers are also getting similar packet loss at the same time my connection is. They're hoping to sort this in a few days.
Title: Re: Need help interpreting some graphs please (and some advice regarding connection)
Post by: Ixel on September 02, 2017, 10:37:56 AM
Well after Zen originally stated there were packet loss issues with some other Zen connections at my exchange, they have now updated me again. Suffice to say they won't investigate the packet loss further until... well see below.

I've been in contact with Zen again who emailed me to tell me they believe there may be a fault with my line. They wanted permission to run an intrusive line test but when I called I was told they already did one and the GEA test passed but something came back with 'possible copper line fault'.

I've been asked to leave the HG612 plugged into the test socket via a microfilter until next week at which point they'll get back to me and possibly ask me to switch to the DrayTek. I'm accumulating lots of error seconds (ES per hour average is 1941 downstream according to DSLstats). I'm also uploading my stats to mydslwebstats (username Ixel). My problems appear to be coming from the D3 band.

When they call me back next week they might also want me to switch back to the DrayTek. However, right now I'm fastpath and DLM will surely kick in tonight so I don't see how that'll be a fair test/comparison since I will most likely be interleaved and the underlying problem as such will be masked by the interleaving.

Mydslwebstats is now getting stats of my uncapped connection. Funnily enough I did notice a slight hissing in the background when I first called this morning, but I wasn't sure if that was perhaps my Gigaset phone. Either way it disappeared soon enough and the hiss was rather faint. However back to my connection I've got lots of error seconds accumulating now I'm no longer capping the downstream sync rate.

The username is Ixel, if anyone can offer feedback please I'd appreciate it.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 03, 2017, 09:57:11 PM
Interesting...

Well I just noticed my SNR fluctuating, also my D3 band on the SNR graph looks horrific from this morning's sample. Just a moment ago I had a fluctuating SNR and after doing a QLT (no noise) suddenly it's stabilised. Surely this isn't right, there must be a fault? I've lost 1 dB downstream SNR however (down to 5 or so now) rather suddenly from 6 dB.

http://i.imgur.com/Tvrbrm9.png

Also on MDWS as Ixel.

Any thoughts?

EDIT: Here's D3 band looking awful before I did a QLT - http://i.imgur.com/mDcFQdG.png.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Dray on September 03, 2017, 10:21:13 PM
EDIT: Nevermind, the SNR graph doesn't show on MDWS, I was looking at DSLstats when I saw something very bad on D3.
Yes it does
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 03, 2017, 10:53:15 PM
Yes it does

Woops, sorry, stand corrected. I see it in the historic section :), thanks!

http://i.imgur.com/mDcFQdG.png
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Dray on September 03, 2017, 11:18:43 PM
I meant

https://imgur.com/a/IFDp3
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 03, 2017, 11:59:25 PM
I meant

https://imgur.com/a/IFDp3

Oh, I see, yeah. Well hopefully tomorrow I can eliminate any internal devices causing this kind of interference as I have a SW (short wave) radio coming :). Can tune up to 29999 KHz (almost 30 MHz) down to something like 2000 KHz in 1 KHz steps, as well as the MW (medium wave) for the ADSL2 frequency range pretty much. But obviously what interests me the most are the problematic frequency ranges in the D3 band.

I guess I'll tell Zen about my findings tomorrow on the SNR graphs from this evening and see what they have to say, hopefully I'll have done my checking with the radio before they get back to me as arranged. In the meantime if anyone has anything to add, such as whether this could be an indication of a line fault then please do say. Thanks.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 04, 2017, 11:53:07 AM
I've got my Tecsun radio this morning and did a check around the frequencies that were severely affected yesterday evening for a short time but when I'm near the master socket I get very little noise other than from the modem (of course), I've noticed some noise coming from the UPS which is probably the closest thing to the master socket area so I'll eliminate that by turning it off temporarily. Hopefully I can just switch it over to mains only and it will stop generating noise. One other nearby appliance is my computer equipment, it's under a metal loft bed so maybe the metal frame of the loft bed is acting as an antenna enough for the phone wiring along the outside wall or master socket to pick this up? Only way to be sure would be to turn off the PC but then the stats will stop being monitored too so that's a catch 22. I'll try the UPS first and go from there. I'm also thinking of changing my DrayTek for a Ubiquiti EdgeRouter to ensure there's zero doubt that there's a performance problem here that's causing packet loss. Just seems like I'm spending a fair bit of money though in order to eliminate everything my end, I honestly can't believe the DrayTek has an issue.

EDIT 1: Unfortunately UPS made no difference. I'm almost out of ideas now, as it seems on here too. I'll discontinue updating the thread as there's currently no further input and hope to resolve this with Zen or alternatively A&A if I have to migrate and if they feel they're more able to rectify this anomaly. Thanks to those who tried to help me.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: LordSven on September 04, 2017, 04:12:01 PM
Good luck in resolution. It would be good to know the cause when you get to the bottom of it. Could I ask which model Tecsun you went for please?
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 04, 2017, 05:27:25 PM
Good luck in resolution. It would be good to know the cause when you get to the bottom of it. Could I ask which model Tecsun you went for please?

Thanks. The radio is a Tecsun PL-660. Yeah, I sent the graphs to Zen this afternoon after they called me, hopefully they'll be more convinced that there might be a line fault. I'm expecting to hear from them again tomorrow. The SNR swing is far worse this afternoon and is currently ongoing, I've not been able to identify anything near the phone wiring or master socket so far which is causing this.

http://i.imgur.com/GBW4XG6.png or see MDWS for a more recent version.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: j0hn on September 04, 2017, 06:08:01 PM
Can you take a screenshot of BitSwaps per tone in DslStats. Might help narrow down problems in the D3 band. I don't think that data is on MDWS.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 04, 2017, 06:17:36 PM
Can you take a screenshot of BitSwaps per tone in DslStats. Might help narrow down problems in the D3 band. I don't think that data is on MDWS.

Sure, added it to http://imgur.com/a/yMYxg - should be at the bottom of the page. It's from yesterday evening some time after the SNR fluctuation occurred.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 05, 2017, 10:10:39 AM
Looks like my error seconds have shot up again, I'm expecting DLM to intervene tomorrow. At least currently I'm getting rather close to the threshold on the 'speed' DLM profile. I've been unsuccessful in identifying if something internal causing this, I have no extension wiring either. Currently waiting for a call from Zen today to see what they have to say about the SNR fluctuations and large quantities error seconds I'm getting.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: burakkucat on September 05, 2017, 05:19:20 PM
Something is definitely causing a constant, but significant, number of CRCs to be observed with your circuit. And it is those CRCs which are the cause of the ESs.  :-\
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 05, 2017, 06:04:35 PM
Success!

I had a call back from Zen today and they did a test prior to the call and it now shows 'battery contact fault'. They asked me to expose the test socket and re-did the test and it still shows 'battery contact fault'. They've now scheduled an engineer (without a visit) to look into and potentially resolve this fault, I'll hear something by the end of the 8th all being well! I was warned about a potential charge if it turns out that the issue is within the property boundary (any garden area included that is), but I highly doubt it's within the property boundary as the cable just runs from the gutter then along the wall to a room upstairs where the master socket is.

Sadly this means DLM probably won't be reset but I can always cap the modem speed later on once both the packet loss and battery contact fault disappear.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: burakkucat on September 05, 2017, 06:20:58 PM
The usual location for either a battery contact fault or an earth contact fault would be in a joint, either aerial or in a footway joint-box. It is very unlikely to be anywhere on your premises.

Does the line reach your premises underground or via an aerial drop?
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 05, 2017, 06:38:27 PM
The usual location for either a battery contact fault or an earth contact fault would be in a joint, either aerial or in a footway joint-box. It is very unlikely to be anywhere on your premises.

Does the line reach your premises underground or via an aerial drop?

I see, and it reaches via an aerial drop.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Black Sheep on September 05, 2017, 06:57:04 PM
As pointed out by Mr Cat ............... unless you have more than one circuit (landline) entering your premises, you can't have a 'Battery contact fault' inside. Not unless someone has physically attached the TV remote control batteries, to the conductor wires   ;) :) :).
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 05, 2017, 07:05:26 PM
As pointed out by Mr Cat ............... unless you have more than one circuit (landline) entering your premises, you can't have a 'Battery contact fault' inside. Not unless someone has physically attached the TV remote control batteries, to the conductor wires   ;) :) :).

Hahaha, I see, nope I would know about that one for sure ;). Nope, just one landline. Good to know! I'm just relieved that Zen has now found a fault. Ironically it's been raining the last few days so maybe that's helped make the problem show up?
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: burakkucat on September 05, 2017, 09:25:35 PM
Ironically it's been raining the last few days so maybe that's helped make the problem show up?

That would be possible. A "leaky" joint, one that is not properly sealed to the elements, could give rise to either type of fault.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 06, 2017, 11:43:04 AM
Well my Ubiquiti EdgeRouter ERPRO-8 arrived this morning and it has now replaced the DrayTek Vigor 2860Vac. It's an impressive bit of kit, and compared to the DrayTek it handles bufferbloat perfectly (smart queue QoS is enabled). Even with QoS on the DrayTek I had about 100-200ms of bufferbloat at times typically, with the Ubiquiti I'm getting around 20-30ms. I did a speed test on thinkbroadband again but I'm still getting a slow single threaded download speed though it might be related to the line fault perhaps. Zen said they would investigate that problem if it still exists after the FTTC connection is better again (e.g. line fault is fixed and minimal errors).
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 07, 2017, 09:32:32 PM
Just to update, had an engineer working on my line since 8:30am and stopped around lunch time (concluding that he was unable to fix the issue and I need to contact the ISP again, at least that's what the message says). The engineer wasn't booked to come to the house, so it might be that the next one must be booked to come inside the house and work from the master socket? I also spoke to Zen about 30 minutes after that but apparently they didn't have any up to date information yet on what happened. I was hoping for a call this evening but I didn't get one so I'll chase it tomorrow morning again. Tonight however, while FEC errors seem a bit high for my liking the ES/CRC errors are calm at the moment. The SNR graph appears to be less noisy at the moment as well (in the D3 band) but maybe that's just a fluke.

My neighbor is also complaining his FTTC service isn't that reliable or great.

I've also got a server cabinet built and put my EdgeRouter, along with other devices, inside that. It looks nice.

http://i.imgur.com/Ya0nPka.jpg
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: burakkucat on September 07, 2017, 10:07:06 PM
I've just had a quick look via MDWS . . .

FECs and CRCs -- not a pretty sight. Hlog is near perfect. QLN shows significantly less noise than previously.

Thank you for sharing the image of the cabinet. What do you currently have installed? And what else do your plan to install? (Cats are always curious.)
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 07, 2017, 10:14:59 PM
I've just had a quick look via MDWS . . .

FECs and CRCs -- not a pretty sight. Hlog is near perfect. QLN shows significantly less noise than previously.

Thank you for sharing the image of the cabinet. What do you currently have installed? And what else do your plan to install? (Cats are always curious.)

Indeed :(. Hopefully I can get this sorted out within the next two or three weeks. Got a massive amount of packet loss again tonight and I know for certain it's not my router now :). The EdgeRouter ERPRO-8 can handle over 2 million packets per second and 8 gigabits of throughput (assuming no QoS, in which case best it can handle is around 500 megabits apparently).

http://beta.speedtest.net/result/6605578292 - Speed test is pretty shoddy.

http://i.imgur.com/B05RUNT.png - Ignoring the downtime earlier today as a result of the engineer and then me assembling my server cabinet, this evening's packet loss is awful.

As for the server cabinet, which was a challenge to put together might I add (haha), it has two power distribution units (for 12 plug sockets) which are both wired into the online UPS (just barely visible on the left of the photo), some smart cooling fans, a cable tidy, the EdgeRouter ERPRO-8 (at the bottom) and behind all that is the Ubiquti Amplifi HD hub, the Gigaset N300a for landline and VoIP calls, and finally the HG612 modem.

I plan to eventually add a high storage NAS in there, hopefully, easily more than 4TB. Just might need to be careful what I choose is the cabinet isn't too deep. Actually it doesn't look like the cabinet I ordered, there's some differences, but still I'm happy with it and I got it cheaper than most of the server cabinets that are for sale I feel.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: burakkucat on September 07, 2017, 10:29:21 PM
http://beta.speedtest.net/result/6605578292 - Speed test is pretty shoddy.

Well, I could say that it is essentially symmetric DS/US.  :-X

Quote
http://i.imgur.com/B05RUNT.png - Ignoring the downtime earlier today as a result of the engineer and then me assembling my server cabinet, this evening's packet loss is awful.

I have seen worse . . .

Quote
As for the server cabinet, which was a challenge to put together might I add (haha), it has two power distribution units (for 12 plug sockets) which are both wired into the online UPS (just barely visible on the left of the photo), some smart cooling fans, a cable tidy, the EdgeRouter ERPRO-8 (at the bottom) and behind all that is the Ubiquti Amplifi HD hub, the Gigaset N300a for landline and VoIP calls, and finally the HG612 modem.

I plan to eventually add a high storage NAS in there, hopefully, easily more than 4TB. Just might need to be careful what I choose is the cabinet isn't too deep. Actually it doesn't look like the cabinet I ordered, there's some differences, but still I'm happy with it and I got it cheaper than most of the server cabinets that are for sale I feel.

Ah, I see. Thank you for the description.

On first examination, I thought the far RH, white, switching PSU was one that had been supplied with an ECI B-FOCuS /r modem and was surprised if that had been your choice. Now I know better.  :)
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: skyeci on September 08, 2017, 08:36:47 AM

http://i.imgur.com/B05RUNT.png - Ignoring the downtime earlier today as a result of the engineer and then me assembling my server cabinet, this evening's packet loss is awful.

I didn't see your cab type but I had the same issue looking at your tbb chart for a number of weeks. In the end it was down to a faulty card in the cab. I did not lose sync but total packet loss sometimes for minutes at and the worst it could be up to a couple of hours
 My cab type though was ECI.


Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 08, 2017, 09:23:47 AM
I didn't see your cab type but I had the same issue looking at your tbb chart for a number of weeks. In the end it was down to a faulty card in the cab. I did not lose sync but total packet loss sometimes for minutes at and the worst it could be up to a couple of hours
 My cab type though was ECI.

Wow, interesting! The DSLAM I'm connected to is also ECI (sadly). I was thinking about that at one point but I don't know how I'd manage to prove it even if it was. I assume I'd have to get the right engineer for a 'broadband fault' rather than a 'landline fault', and Zen haven't ruled out something at the exchange side as far as I know, yet. I wonder if the 'some of the other customers are showing similar packet loss at similar times' is possibly those connected on the same line card in the same cabinet I'm connected to, sadly I guess no way to know as I imagine Openreach only know that information. For curiosity I'll try to find out what my neighbor is using (ISP). I'll be calling Zen if they don't call me by 10am, otherwise time is being wasted on not fixing the issue, as they must surely have yesterday's Openreach/engineer feedback by then. The D3 band is still cleaner than it was before the engineer intervened, so that's good.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 08, 2017, 11:16:11 AM
Ah, some good news I believe!

I had a call this morning from Zen confirming that while they still have no notes about what happened yesterday, it looks like the engineer has arranged (I think) for an underground engineer to fix a fault which is due to be done by the 13th but could happen sooner. I've been told that they won't need to come to the house still. Fingers crossed.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 12, 2017, 05:46:06 PM
Update: Nothing happened and it's almost the 13th. I was hoping for a sign that something was happening but maybe the underground engineer (assuming they showed up) I was told about was just doing an initial assessment or something like that? Well, hopefully tomorrow I'll hear back from Zen about the latest of the situation with some promising news.

EDIT: Checked MDWS and notice not too long ago, perhaps 20 mins or so, the FEC errors have dropped to quite a low amount now. Perhaps it's just a 'quiet patch' though.

EDIT 2: Indeed it was a 'quiet patch' sadly, back to the higher FEC errors again.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: burakkucat on September 12, 2017, 06:16:36 PM
The circuit is still struggling, I see.

The QLN, CRC and FEC plots are the ones I check, once a day.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 14, 2017, 11:25:48 AM
Yeah, well I've had another update. Zen chased BT and I'm told a manhole engineer is booked today for the PM slot and will update their notes by the end of the day. Zen will update me again tomorrow on the outcome of that. There was a brief disconnection this morning. After reconnection my line attenuation has increased by quite a bit but as a result of that the upstream sync rate has also increased as the DSLAM thinks I'm a little further away now (UPBO). Downstream sync rate remains about the same. The state of the errors is currently unknown but I think they are still there. We'll see what happens by the end of the day I guess and see what the engineer has said as well (by tomorrow).
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Chrysalis on September 14, 2017, 11:41:47 AM
yeah your line looks a mess, weird dips in DS snrm also.

Plus 450 ES/day "whilst" interleaved is a big sign something is not right.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 15, 2017, 12:34:15 PM
yeah your line looks a mess, weird dips in DS snrm also.

Plus 450 ES/day "whilst" interleaved is a big sign something is not right.

Indeed.

Another update. I asked Zen what happened yesterday and apparently they were sent the 'clear code' (passed, fault resolved?). I told Zen that based on the statistics I can see that this problem still appears to exist. I had a SNRM fluctuation on D3 again yesterday evening or late afternoon, can't precisely remember the time but I recall seeing it, I'm still getting a rather high amount of FEC errors and a fair amount of ES. D3 still looks a bit of a noisy mess at times and my line attenuation is higher than it was before the underground engineer intervened. Zen have rejected the 'clear code' and are waiting for further input from BT/Openreach.

Maybe the engineer genuinely believed the fault was resolved when they intervened yesterday, as the stats did look good until probably 30 minutes or so following the downtime that occurred in the morning.

EDIT: Looks like SNRM fluctuation occurred around between 6pm and 8pm.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: burakkucat on September 15, 2017, 04:00:03 PM
Your circuit is my default view via MDWS and when I last checked, earlier this afternoon (Fri 15th Sep 2017), it is still not operating correctly.  :(
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 15, 2017, 06:27:39 PM
Your circuit is my default view via MDWS and when I last checked, earlier this afternoon (Fri 15th Sep 2017), it is still not operating correctly.  :(

I haven't checked today so far but I'm imagining there are bad signs for sure haha.

BT have asked Zen to book an appointment to come to the house, so I've agreed to 19th PM. Fingers crossed it won't be either a 'no show' or worst 'no fault found, then charges me a call out via ISP'. If there's difficulty in finding the fault then I will show the engineer some of the graphs based on the data I've got from the HG612, particularly the intermittent D3 SNR rapid swings, to hopefully help them and to also hopefully help decrease the chance I'll get charged for the call out if the task ends in 'no fault found'.

Does anyone have any other suggestions, other than offering tea/coffee or biscuits, to help my case?

P.S. Here's an updated image of my replacement server cabinet, since the original one wasn't the one I ordered (didn't quite match the picture and specs shown on the website I ordered it from). This one is much better anyway. ( https://i.imgur.com/VvSwPr9.jpg )
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Chrysalis on September 15, 2017, 07:42:12 PM
Ixel the snrm dips I would not concentrate on them but the error rate instead, a few of us also get occasional dips but without affecting our service and by design snr will vary over a long period of time.

Of course your error rate I still think is pretty much broken.  Some kind of underlying noise on your line I think causing it.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 15, 2017, 07:56:48 PM
Ixel the snrm dips I would not concentrate on them but the error rate instead, a few of us also get occasional dips but without affecting our service and by design snr will vary over a long period of time.

Of course your error rate I still think is pretty much broken.  Some kind of underlying noise on your line I think causing it.

Yeah I agree, the amount of FEC errors per minute is somewhat insane. Just to clarify, this ( https://i.imgur.com/ldl7v4g.png ) for example isn't worth even mentioning too then?
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: burakkucat on September 15, 2017, 10:25:32 PM
P.S. Here's an updated image of my replacement server cabinet, since the original one wasn't the one I ordered (didn't quite match the picture and specs shown on the website I ordered it from). This one is much better anyway. ( https://i.imgur.com/VvSwPr9.jpg )

That looks very professional for the top three quarters, the bottom quarter looks . . . erm, a little unprofessional.  ;)  What is the power consumption; what sort of load does it impose on your UPS?

Yeah I agree, the amount of FEC errors per minute is somewhat insane.

Rather crazy. But it shows that the EDC mechanism is operating well.

Quote
Just to clarify, this ( https://i.imgur.com/ldl7v4g.png ) for example isn't worth even mentioning too then?

There certainly is something peculiar occurring . . . Is that typical of the circuit's behaviour over a 24 hour period?
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 15, 2017, 10:34:48 PM
That looks very professional for the top three quarters, the bottom quarter looks . . . erm, a little unprofessional.  ;)  What is the power consumption; what sort of load does it impose on your UPS?

Rather crazy. But it shows that the EDC mechanism is operating well.

There certainly is something peculiar occurring . . . Is that typical of the circuit's behaviour over a 24 hour period?

Yeah, that can do with an improvement but it works for now. I haven't measured power consumption but the UPS load level is pretty low, based on specifications of the devices in use I'd say at most it's consuming around 200W.

The rapid SNR swinging happens periodically, at random intervals and durations, typically on a daily basis now. I've noticed it generally seems to stabilise either randomly or if I happen to use the phone line (e.g. dial tone).
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: burakkucat on September 15, 2017, 11:16:00 PM
I haven't measured power consumption but the UPS load level is pretty low, based on specifications of the devices in use I'd say at most it's consuming around 200W.

Thank you. That has satisfied this curious kitteh.

Quote
I've noticed it generally seems to stabilise either randomly or if I happen to use the phone line (e.g. dial tone).

Having read your description, I am inclined to suspect a defective joint. One that is either showing semi-conductive or HR tendencies due to corrosion, possibly between two dissimilar metals.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Chrysalis on September 15, 2017, 11:31:48 PM
Is there a chance ixel that your modem been so close proximity to the power sockets and other devices it could be swamped with noise especially as with the door closed it will be contained in that small area.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 16, 2017, 12:20:07 AM
Is there a chance ixel that your modem been so close proximity to the power sockets and other devices it could be swamped with noise especially as with the door closed it will be contained in that small area.

Nope as this issue was occurring before I had the server cabinet. I will however eliminate that possibility tomorrow by placing the modem outside of the cabinet to be 100% certain. I need to do so anyway as Zen advised me to go back to using the test socket with a micro-filter before the engineer turns up, and the only RJ11 to RJ11 cable I have which is of decent quality (not the flat cables) is very short. The longer one I'm currently using, I think two meters, is RJ11 to RJ45. Who knows though, maybe the engineer has fixed something and that's just compounded the original problem. As such maybe taking it out of the cabinet will make the problem disappear? Though I'm doubtful.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 17, 2017, 12:53:15 AM
I've moved the modem outside the cabinet and used a short cable (that cable on eBay for those with problems or w/e, with that ferrite bead integrated), with a micro-filter. Not sure if it's the cable, the micro-filter or merely just the way the line has now become but the Hlog graph looks different.

https://i.imgur.com/cpHhwvR.png

A nice wave like line on the first downstream band.

I'll try switching to a simple flat RJ11 cable to see if it disappears, then if not I'll try switching back to the MK3 SSFP. Interesting though.

EDIT: The mentioned cable from eBay caused that wave like line it seems, now it's smooth with a flat RJ11 cable. FEC errors are still there however, in a large amount. I hope the engineer decides to try a 'circuit recalc' and it should hopefully reveal the stupidly high amount of error seconds I had (especially with the amount of FEC errors I'm getting still). On the other hand, re-syncing made my line attenuation return to normal.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: burakkucat on September 17, 2017, 01:12:36 AM
. . . the Hlog graph looks different.

https://i.imgur.com/cpHhwvR.png

A nice wave like line on the first downstream band.

Yuck, is my first comment on your Hlog plot. My second comment is that the plot displays the typical ECI equipped cabinet "tail-end droop" (a sudden increase in attenuation at the highest frequency sub-carriers).
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 19, 2017, 03:03:41 PM
Yuck, is my first comment on your Hlog plot. My second comment is that the plot displays the typical ECI equipped cabinet "tail-end droop" (a sudden increase in attenuation at the highest frequency sub-carriers).

Indeed, the tail end droop disappeared ish when I did a re-sync though.

Well, engineer has been, did all he could but he was just a phone engineer (not a broadband one). I was told I need a broadband engineer, and was advised to contact Zen again and ask for one. He feels it could be a faulty port on the DSLAM but being a phone engineer he doesn't have access to it. I mentioned a circuit recalc to prove the CRC errors were still there (being masked by FEC errors) but I don't think he had the training or access to do that (he thought the ISP could do it, but I said I thought it was only the Openreach engineer who could).

So, I will be contacting Zen again to inform them of the situation. In the meantime the only way I feel I can prove the CRC errors are still there is if I forcibly cap the downstream speed on the modem to say... half what it is now (as I will eventually get fastpath back). Zen on the other hand might not like this or might wonder what I'm up to. Anyone have any suggestions on how I should proceed? Thanks in advance.

Finally I have no idea if I'm being charged, I hope not. He said he didn't mind this type of fault as it's an easy job for him (of course, haha), so as long as I don't get charged for 'no fault found' I won't mind.

--

EDIT: I've had an idea. Maybe I should get a second line (my drop wire is capable of four lines I think). This would rule out the idea of a faulty DSLAM port without potentially costing me a lot for call outs. If it turns out there's still a fault then, as I'd go with A&A for this second line, I could get them on to the case unless of course the installer finds there's instability the moment he connects it up (FTTC). If on the other hand there's no fault then I'll just have to class Zen as a backup connection for the remainder of the contract. Maybe I should do that?

--

EDIT 2: I've just had a call from Zen, obviously stating what I already know about today (no fault found) and there is a charge but I'm being told that it's not my concern as Zen never agreed with BT/Openreach about a possible call out charge for this particular call out so they'll dispute that (phew!). They're going to now deal with the packet loss problem and move me to an assured peer or something I think they said. However I think what I've mentioned in the first edit may be my best option to getting this tackled, and perhaps at the end of the contact with Zen just stick with A&A from that point on only (while keeping Zen for voice phone line rental). Any thoughts anyone?
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Chrysalis on September 19, 2017, 06:35:11 PM
New line seems way to go, I dont think zen have handled it well, the voice engineer surely they would have been aware of that before he came.

The only issue with aaisp is revk has confirmed they low ball the speed estimate now using the handback threshold (post on tbb), so that could make any future speed related faults harder to raise as the figure they will use is a low one.  I dont know if aaisp consider a line thats stable whilst interleaved as faulty or not.

If you forcefully cap the sync, bear in mind if you get a fault raised due to the low speed, and then an engineer shows up, syncs at normal speed, then that will come out as a slam dunk CPE to blame case.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 19, 2017, 07:14:48 PM
New line seems way to go, I dont think zen have handled it well, the voice engineer surely they would have been aware of that before he came.

The only issue with aaisp is revk has confirmed they low ball the speed estimate now using the handback threshold (post on tbb), so that could make any future speed related faults harder to raise as the figure they will use is a low one.  I dont know if aaisp consider a line thats stable whilst interleaved as faulty or not.

If you forcefully cap the sync, bear in mind if you get a fault raised due to the low speed, and then an engineer shows up, syncs at normal speed, then that will come out as a slam dunk CPE to blame case.

Good point about the sync cap, yeah true. I think a new line is the way to go, it'll at least eliminate the faulty DSLAM port hunch that this other engineer had and if the new line immediately shows lots of CRC errors then maybe it'll be dealt with (I assume the installer checks the connection stats for a few mins to ensure things are 'normal'?). I'll query if possible about how they might handle this type of fault (A&A) if it occurs after the line has been installed, assuming the installer doesn't pick up on it at the time.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 20, 2017, 11:02:38 AM
After further consideration last night I've decided it's definitely my best and only option to really getting something done about the problems I'm suffering with. The connection has apparently got worse and DLM will no doubt increase me to INP 4 soon (or worse).

https://i.imgur.com/fNiHP20.png - Those averages look ugly as hell lol

Hopefully A&A can help me if the second connection should have issues too.

EDIT: Damn, I have to wait until the 13th of October before the PSTN bit is done, then I think it's another appointment for FTTC too, so maybe near to a month before I can get it.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: burakkucat on September 20, 2017, 10:38:20 PM
The connection has apparently got worse and DLM will no doubt increase me to INP 4 soon (or worse).

I take a look, once every 24 hours. Yes, things have gradually got worse.

A total of 2161 error seconds counted over the last 24 hours.  :(
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Chrysalis on September 21, 2017, 08:10:11 AM
good luck with the new pair ixel, I hope its not something local to you and a remote problem instead which could be resolved by the new line.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 21, 2017, 10:16:35 AM
Thanks, yeah all being well. If not then I need to hope A&A can assist. If they can't assist then I highly doubt any other ISP can. The only option I'm otherwise left with is to disable most of the D3 band on the DSL-AC68U and use the DSL-AC68U as the modem, as that's where I was originally getting this problem (D3 band) which may unfortunately also suggest something is causing severe interference and may not be a line fault. Hopefully not however, maybe it's just a faulty port on the DSLAM. There's also another possibility, the port on the DSLAM could be damaged (surged?) maybe from whatever the original underground fault was (all I know is that it was a battery contact fault).
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on September 27, 2017, 10:04:52 PM
I think I've started to notice a possible pattern with my issue.

The SNRM started swinging wildly shortly after it started to rain tonight (hasn't rained here for some days). It has stabilised again for now but it lasted a while. The FEC errors also increase when the outside temperature becomes cooler and decrease when the temperature becomes milder. My only guess that this isn't a faulty DSLAM port but some part of the copper line is exposed to the weather, so I imagine the second line will also get similar symptoms.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 04, 2017, 09:27:38 PM
Just to provide an update to anyone still watching this thread.

Last Friday Zen called me to confirm the issue with my packet loss and slow single threaded download speed had been resolved. I tested it and indeed it was resolved, until mid afternoon today.

https://imgur.com/a/3XPww

In my attempt to encourage fastpath to return to see if I'd get lots of ES/CRC errors still, tonight swinging SNR has also returned after being absent for a while (D3 band), see https://imgur.com/a/ojlPM

No rain this time, I don't think temperature is causing it either as it's not overly cold, just it's fairly windy compared to the last few days.

I can't wait to get the A&A connection live. If there's still problems then I'm sure they'll get Openreach to fix it.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: burakkucat on October 04, 2017, 10:06:41 PM
Just to provide an update to anyone still watching this thread.

Thank you. (As I read each post that you make to this thread.)

Quote
I can't wait to get the A&A connection live. If there's still problems then I'm sure they'll get Openreach to fix it.

Do you now have a firm installation date?
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 04, 2017, 11:05:14 PM
Thank you. (As I read each post that you make to this thread.)

Do you now have a firm installation date?

Yes I do :), **hopefully anyway**. It's still planned for the 13th of this month, I assume for both installing the second line and doing the FTTC bit in the PCP.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 13, 2017, 02:23:52 PM
To update the problem, as quoted from another thread in the ISP section.

Quote
New line installed, took the engineer a while as he had to connect it at the pole and then find the pair but it all went smoothly.

Good news is that the speed test is excellent, I ran one from dslreports (single threaded only): https://i.imgur.com/UWepEcR.png

Even more good news is that I'm syncing much faster than my old line did, currently 69033/17077 versus possibly 57xxx/13xxx (uncapped).

Bad news is that my rather excessive and continuous error seconds and CRC errors are still present so no doubt DLM will kick in soon, once I've collected enough data I'll see what AAISP have to say and hope they can help me eliminate this issue.

Otherwise so far I'm happy with AAISP's performance via TT wholesale back-haul :).

Engineer told me I'm also on a new line card, forgot to mention that in the other thread :).

Code: [Select]
DSLAM/MSAN type:        IFTN:0xb206 / v0xb206
has changed to...

Code: [Select]
DSLAM/MSAN type:        IFTN:0xd086 / v0xd086
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 19, 2017, 01:38:15 PM
I've emailed AAISP after getting advice on IRC to be sure, AA-Shaun said they should be able to help me. I got a reply very quickly to my essay like email (I wanted to be as detailed as I could) from Shaun. A fault has been raised with TalkTalk Wholesale, AAISP is asking for a broadband engineer as this is a broadband fault and something that Zen should've done to begin with I feel. I'm told there will be no extra charges raised as there's a fault with the service. I sent in brief stats from my HG612 which clearly shows an insane amount of error seconds, similar to what I'm getting with my DrayTek Vigor 2860Vac and an unlocked ECI /r with LEDE. I'm feeling confident this matter will get sorted eventually now and believe I made the right decision in joining AAISP via a second line :).

Fault currently reads on the control panel as: "We are seeing high bursts of errors on this line and policy discards, line has very high interleave levels to help cope with the errors but this is not enough. Previously engineers have stated that there is a D side issue but it has not been fixed as the line". Presumably truncated, but overall sounds promising!
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Chrysalis on October 19, 2017, 03:07:50 PM
yeah aaisp are doing what zen should have done.

Those error rates are not normal, yes every line will have errors, and there is variances, but the amount you get is extreme.

Good luck.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: NewtronStar on October 19, 2017, 09:47:26 PM
Just looking into this situation and says to myself could my line at 1 kilometer be improved by switching to an ISP like A&A, this line would get over 2000+ errored seconds on Fastpath if it was not for G.INP just wondering how an ISP could cure this with the help of Openreach ?
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 19, 2017, 10:44:03 PM
Just looking into this situation and says to myself could my line at 1 kilometer be improved by switching to an ISP like A&A, this line would get over 2000+ errored seconds on Fastpath if it was not for G.INP just wondering how an ISP could cure this with the help of Openreach ?

Hmm, I guess it depends what AAISP would see regarding the performance of your line. That's quite a lot of error seconds.

In my fault notes they mention 'policy discards', which I assume is referring to the "Downstream Policing Discard Rate" mentioned on a GEA test. Perhaps it means something different though. It's a gamble switching though, but certainly for my situation I feel I've definitely made the right decision now. I thought maybe I'd get some kind of response like "DLM is doing its job by enabling error correction and you have a sync rate that's higher than BT's estimate", but no :). I'm not sure when I'll get an engineer visit, could be a surprise visit too for all I know (has happened once early in the morning, that wasn't too fun when all the phones suddenly started ringing none stop). I know my line's on service/care level 2.5 which apparently gives me higher priority and clear by end of next working day (Monday to Saturday inclusive). However that might only apply to PSTN faults, not FTTC.

WLR3Test WLR3_CIDT_Test: Pass Line Test OK. Dial tone OK ServiceLevel:2.5, MainFaultLocation:OK, FaultReportAdvised:N, AppointmentRequired:N, LineStability:, NetworkStability:, StabilityStatement:

I wish I had G.INP, but would G.INP mask the problem I'm having or would it be noticeable on AAISP's CQM or some other diagnostic. I'm not sure. Not having G.INP is probably a blessing in disguise for my current problem. I queried a concern about possible charges if broadband engineer visits and for some reason can't find a fault, but I was told that charges won't be a problem as they won't be paying anything extra to fix a fault with the service. All good news so far.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: NewtronStar on October 19, 2017, 11:15:23 PM
Not having G.INP is probably a blessing

The whole idea of G.INP was to try and eliminate those errored seconds and it does a very good but that is not an option for you.

Still think back to the old days when Kitz, Baldeagle1 and BC said to let your circuit become service affected and become a very noticeable fault on OR's JDSU or you will get a no fault found, now I don't know how A&A are able to persuade the OR engineer there is a fault when his/her JDSU says there is no fault who then becomes the engineer A&A or Openreach  ::)
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 20, 2017, 09:56:14 AM
Broadband engineer has been, unfortunately 'no fault found'.

He mentioned his tester's modem is a bit inferior to a modern modem and so could sync slower, which then makes me wonder if his tester is not as sensitive to errors if it's syncing slower. He was also of the attitude that my line could do with interleaving and not to worry about the higher ping/lower speed caused by it. I had to tell him to do a DLM reset however, he was doing tests initially with interleaving still on! How is that going to accomplish anything haha.

I'm now waiting on AAISP's response to the situation. Currently on the locked ECI /r for now.

EDIT: Plugged in DrayTek Vigor 2860Vac, so far stats seem fair. Maybe the fault has disappeared magically?

https://pastebin.com/raw/fHTXgpf6

Only thing I've observed is that before I'm certain I had an 'R' (RFEC) value of 0 instead of 16 on the downstream. Maybe now that it's 16 it's doing a job of helping handle the errors that I was originally getting on fastpath with a downstream 'R' of 0? I notice I'm getting a reasonable quantity of FEC errors at the moment.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: WWWombat on October 20, 2017, 11:53:35 AM
EDIT: Plugged in DrayTek Vigor 2860Vac, so far stats seem fair. Maybe the fault has disappeared magically?

https://pastebin.com/raw/fHTXgpf6

Only thing I've observed is that before I'm certain I had an 'R' (RFEC) value of 0 instead of 16 on the downstream. Maybe now that it's 16 it's doing a job of helping handle the errors that I was originally getting on fastpath with a downstream 'R' of 0? I notice I'm getting a reasonable quantity of FEC errors at the moment.

I'm not certain about that format of output, so this might be wrong, but...

On broadcom stats, in the framing parameters section, R is the number of bytes being used for the FEC overhead and N is the RS block size (ie the total size of the block that FEC applies to). On my current setup with G.INP active, R=8 and N=139. 8 bytes out of every 139 are the FEC redundancy overhead.

If they represent the same thing on your line, you could well have the FEC process active, using 16 bytes out of 255. This would explain the non-zero FEC counter and FECS counter.

On broadcom stats, the closely-related interleaving statistics can be seen (as D and I) in the same section. For yours, I think I is "INTLVBLOCK", while D is "DS Interleave Depth" in the top section instead. You don't appear to be interleaved. It also looks like DLM has not asked for interleaving (INP=0 and INTLVDelay=0).

So you look to have interleaving off, but FEC turned on. Not often seen downstream, but very common upstream.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 20, 2017, 12:04:09 PM
I'm not certain about that format of output, so this might be wrong, but...

On broadcom stats, in the framing parameters section, R is the number of bytes being used for the FEC overhead and N is the RS block size (ie the total size of the block that FEC applies to). On my current setup with G.INP active, R=8 and N=139. 8 bytes out of every 139 are the FEC redundancy overhead.

If they represent the same thing on your line, you could well have the FEC process active, using 16 bytes out of 255. This would explain the non-zero FEC counter and FECS counter.

On broadcom stats, the closely-related interleaving statistics can be seen (as D and I) in the same section. For yours, I think I is "INTLVBLOCK", while D is "DS Interleave Depth" in the top section instead. You don't appear to be interleaved. It also looks like DLM has not asked for interleaving (INP=0 and INTLVDelay=0).

So you look to have interleaving off, but FEC turned on. Not often seen downstream, but very common upstream.

I see, interesting. Yeah I thought usually downstream doesn't have it hence normally no FEC errors when on fastpath. I've always seen it on upstream. Perhaps that's why I'm no longer seeing the amount of CRC errors/error seconds I was getting on the downstream. I will try the unlocked ECI /r with LEDE later on as well. I doubt I'll try the HG612 though as I feel it's not as compatible with the ECI cab.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Chrysalis on October 20, 2017, 05:38:01 PM
Ahh so thats why you avoiding broadcom, as I was going to ask.

Everyone here is in a better position to help if you active on MDWS.

The problem you will have with openreach is they consider interleaving to be a "solution" not a "workaround/mask".  So unless interleaving pulls a line below the handback threshold they will consider it all good, so now you going to be reliant on AAISP fighting your case to tell openreach thats not acceptable.

In my opinion the error rate you previously reported is way excessive, getting 1000s even in a single hour, however if the line is stable when interleaved, from a dumbed down view point openreach may just say its working as described and then refuse to do anything.  So aaisp will need to keep pushing them probably.

Did you tell aaisp about what you was told by your installation engineer?
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 20, 2017, 05:55:09 PM
Ahh so thats why you avoiding broadcom, as I was going to ask.

Everyone here is in a better position to help if you active on MDWS.

The problem you will have with openreach is they consider interleaving to be a "solution" not a "workaround/mask".  So unless interleaving pulls a line below the handback threshold they will consider it all good, so now you going to be reliant on AAISP fighting your case to tell openreach thats not acceptable.

In my opinion the error rate you previously reported is way excessive, getting 1000s even in a single hour, however if the line is stable when interleaved, from a dumbed down view point openreach may just say its working as described and then refuse to do anything.  So aaisp will need to keep pushing them probably.

Did you tell aaisp about what you was told by your installation engineer?

I know, problem is I noticed I got blips of packet loss of 1% occurring every so often on the AAISP CQM when using the HG612. Now I have 'R: 16' (FEC) on the downstream, assuming the HG612 doesn't change that, I could put that HG612 back on perhaps late tonight and try it again. I wish there was a way for Lantiq chipsets to work on MDWS as they just seem to work a bit better with my line. On the ECI /r with LEDE on the latest firmware I'm sure I recall getting around 75Mbps down, where on the HG612 I believe it was previously 69Mbps when it was 'R: 0', and of course almost none of the intermittent blips of 1% packet loss showing on AAISP's CQM when using a Lantiq chipset.

Yes I told AAISP about it, and I also told the engineer today but the engineer (who I found out was an SFI engineer) said if there was a problem with water as the previous engineer mentioned then there would be a noticeable issue on the voice side. Given the periodic bad weather here it should've been noticeable. However he did say that it might be there's no or very few spare pairs which are working correctly and could be why they mentioned it as it is something that still needs doing but isn't affecting your pair at the moment.

Here's my latest stats ( https://pastebin.com/raw/SrJV1xU9 ), and I only think it's thanks to having 'R: 16' for some reason on the downstream that I'm not seeing lots of error seconds again and mostly FEC errors instead even though I'm currently on fastpath.

Here's the bitloading chart from the DrayTek too: https://i.imgur.com/03i4kck.png

Ignore the bin numbers below the charts, they don't quite line up for some reason.

AAISP appear to want to keep the fault ticket open for now and let more time pass to get more statistics. Last I checked on the control panel they're scheduled to discuss this with me again on or by Monday.

EDIT: Oh, forgot to mention that the engineer didn't seem too keen for me to use the ECI /r or HG612. He called them old and probably don't sync as well as more modern modems do. I did mention however that they were used as more proof that it's not my own equipment.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 21, 2017, 01:27:54 AM
A brief update tonight to say it appears the problem is still there.

I switched to the HG612 and immediately I got lots of error seconds accumulating so quickly unplugged it. Interestingly it was 'R: 0' too, so no FEC errors. The 'R: 16' seems to be unique to the DrayTek, or possibly a modem with a Lantiq chipset. The unlocked ECI /r with LEDE also started getting many errors but I can't see what the R / RFEC was sadly. It was clearly more than 0 because it was also accumulating FEC errors in addition to CRC errors. I've got brief stats from both before disconnecting them and will report my findings to AAISP in the morning, for now I've left a pin on my CQM to explain what the downtime was about in case someone in AAISP wonders before I get to explain what happened. I'll also post the stats here tomorrow most likely via an edit to this post, so keep an eye out, it will be in the morning.

DrayTek Vigor 2860Vac is currently the only modem/router that's keeping errors in check, though the CQM and ping graphs are showing some odd spikes every so often which I'll also post here tomorrow morning.

I think the next logical step might be to either temporarily buy or hopefully maybe borrow a recommended modem/modem+router combined from AAISP for me to run on the line to see what the results are from that. I highly doubt both the ECI /r and the HG612 have a fault though, just doesn't seem very likely for two different devices to perform similar in regards to CRC errors. I'll see what they say however, but with this discovery I have a feeling the fault will remain open even if the DrayTek is the only modem so far that appears more stable on the DSL signal.

In the meantime, good night, and it looks like the problem isn't over. I'm guessing the tester's modem the engineer was using yesterday morning was as efficient as the DrayTek Vigor 2860Vac is for handling the errors (which is a bit unfortunate too).
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Chrysalis on October 21, 2017, 03:04:21 AM
you probably best keeping it plugged in, if its bad enough to show packet loss, then aaisp can use that as evidence to give to openreach.  In other words its better to have worse conditions when reporting a fault.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 21, 2017, 09:23:46 AM
you probably best keeping it plugged in, if its bad enough to show packet loss, then aaisp can use that as evidence to give to openreach.  In other words its better to have worse conditions when reporting a fault.

Good point, I'm going to ask this morning when mentioning what I've discovered last night and see what they suggest. As I say I feel it's highly unlikely for both the ECI /r with LEDE and the HG612 to both be faulty. The Openreach SFI engineer wasn't too keen on the fact I was using a HG612 or ECI /r, classifying them as old technology, so I'm wondering if the HG612 was used as proof whether it would just allow the engineer to blame the HG612 as being the faulty device. It's possible AAISP might suggest to buy or perhaps loan a specific test modem to eliminate all doubt. As long as it's a Broadcom chipset I feel it should be certain to prove there's problems on the line. The other problem is the engineer's tester seems to be acting similar to the DrayTek, in that it's handling the errors (mostly making them into FEC errors although fastpath).

I'm just about to email them now, I'll post the brief stats here shortly as well.

EDIT: Statistics included.

HG612 stats: https://pastebin.com/raw/ug98KYqT

ECI /r with LEDE firmware: https://pastebin.com/raw/6sqkU8am

Here's the DrayTek stats since last night: https://pastebin.com/raw/TYR3kE0R

--

EDIT (2017-10-21 13:27): Had an update from AAISP that TT said to them that they don't think there's anything wrong. Mostly understandable if I'm using the DrayTek. I've been told that this probably can't be progressed further until Monday, but I also haven't been asked yet to use the HG612 and collect data myself, pretty much just to wait by the looks of it. I guess best thing to do is wait then and hope Monday brings something new and progressive. I could use the line with the DrayTek but it just concerns me it's the only modem I can pretty much use now in order to have a reasonable connection.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: ejs on October 21, 2017, 05:01:58 PM
Regarding the apparent difference in performance between the Draytek and the ECI modem running LEDE:
See http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,18511.0.html
(Although one oddity is that the value 8 in the script from the Netgear DM200 for the operator select command doesn't seem to match the value for BT in the source code.)

Perhaps the Draytek firmware specially configures the Lantiq DSL firmware for Openreach VDSL2, whereas LEDE does not.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 21, 2017, 05:59:56 PM
Regarding the apparent difference in performance between the Draytek and the ECI modem running LEDE:
See http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,18511.0.html
(Although one oddity is that the value 8 in the script from the Netgear DM200 for the operator select command doesn't seem to match the value for BT in the source code.)

Perhaps the Draytek firmware specially configures the Lantiq DSL firmware for Openreach VDSL2, whereas LEDE does not.

Interesting, you could be right about that. Same probably applies for the engineer's tester's modem.

I've lost sync twice today due to heavy rain, if it rains heavy again and drops then I'll quickly run a PSTN test but I bet it passes. I tried it not long ago and it passed. It can't be normal for VDSL2 to completely drop with heavy rain surely?
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Chrysalis on October 21, 2017, 06:40:56 PM
dropouts shouldn't be happening no
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: burakkucat on October 21, 2017, 06:44:17 PM
I've lost sync twice today due to heavy rain, if it rains heavy again and drops then I'll quickly run a PSTN test but I bet it passes. I tried it not long ago and it passed. It can't be normal for VDSL2 to completely drop with heavy rain surely?

"No" is the one word answer to your question. I believe that you mentioned, earlier in this thread, something about a wet joint? I suspect that the circuit is borderline in terms of usability.

The current A&A (https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-accessories.html) modem of choice is now the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10D (https://support.aa.net.uk/Category:ZyXEL_VMG1312_B10D), which they are selling for 60.  :-X
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 21, 2017, 07:08:40 PM
"No" is the one word answer to your question. I believe that you mentioned, earlier in this thread, something about a wet joint? I suspect that the circuit is borderline in terms of usability.

The current A&A (https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-accessories.html) modem of choice is now the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10D (https://support.aa.net.uk/Category:ZyXEL_VMG1312_B10D), which they are selling for 60.  :-X

Thanks! Since that's their choice for the modem I will see what they say on Monday, who knows... maybe they'll suggest I either buy that or maybe I'll be loaned one to test for a time. I don't mind buying it as long as I know it'll help with progressing the fault to being sorted eventually.

Yes I did mention a joint in a manhole on the main road that the installing engineer mentioned. However the SFI engineer I had yesterday when I mentioned this he didn't seem to understand or acknowledge it really, I felt.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: NewtronStar on October 21, 2017, 07:26:08 PM
Did the SFI engineer not say if there was a fault in that manhole cover it would be noticeable on the telephone side as crackles & hiss or something like that on post 67
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 21, 2017, 08:28:07 PM
Did the SFI engineer not say if there was a fault in that manhole cover it would be noticeable on the telephone side as crackles & hiss or something like that on post 67

He did mention that yeah, I can't say I've noticed that though when periodically checking the dial tone or such sadly.

Engineer notes, for the curious:
****** Checklist questions *******
On site contact name - [redacted]
Is EU setup and modem OK ? - Yes
Is VDSL modem connected via microfilters (Offer to fit SSFP) ? - No
Is VDSL modem in sync ? - Yes
Are SSFP and connections OK ? - Yes
What was the result of the PQT at SSFP ? - Pass - Green
Has any star wiring been isolated on the network side of the SSFP ? (N/A if star wiring not present) ? - N/A
After the star wiring is isolated, is sync speed at NTE OK ? - N/A
Is EU physical set up OK (PC/Router wiring connected correctly) ? - Yes
Does on site contact confirm that this is the normal set up of their equipment ? - Yes
Have you been provided with CP's test page account details ? - No
Are you able to connect to CP's homepage from customer router using end user PC ? - Yes
Have you confirmed results with on site contact ? - Yes
Did a joint meet with CP's engineer take place ? - No
Is VDSL modem powered up on arrival at EU premises ? - Yes
Can you connect to an external site from EU equipment ? - Yes
*** End of checklist questions ***

Service ok when I was on site. Line test OK PQT passed. Test and demo to [redacted].
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: kitz on October 22, 2017, 11:16:51 AM
What's your hlog like now?  Ive just seen one that you posted a while ago which looks rather strange. 

It's not a usual sharp dip like you'd expect to see for a bridge tap, but those very slight waves could indicate signal reflection on the line. Using the standard calculation for a bridge tap (160/MHz) then the start point is somewhere around 320 feet. Because its so slight it may not be picked up on most tests, and tbh Im not even sure if Openreach would class that as a full blown fault....  but it could indicate a copper impedance mismatch, which in turn would cause the line to throw errors.   
The echo effect may show up on a JDSU which could give the engineer a more exact reading for distance. If he can see it on the JDSU then it may give an indication where to look, there's several things that could cause this; but in view of how small the bumps are IMHO slight corrosion on a joint is probably most likely,  but it can even be caused by damp weather.

It's looking like one of those stupid faults which is hard to track down until the line begins to get real bad.  I sympathise, been there, done it. Seen an engineer try work his butt off to track down the problem because standard tests pass.

It's very important to remember that hlog log is a capture of a moment in time, so you'd need to see this over several hlogs before drawing more definite conclusions.

Others may have some thoughts on impedance mismatch and what could be a small signal reflection showing in the lower tones from that one hlog.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 22, 2017, 11:32:28 AM
What's your hlog like now?  Ive just seen one that you posted a while ago which looks rather strange. 

It's not a usual sharp dip like you'd expect to see for a bridge tap, but those very slight waves could indicate signal reflection on the line. Using the standard calculation for a bridge tap (160/MHz) then the start point is somewhere around 320 feet. Because its so slight it may not be picked up on most tests, and tbh Im not even sure if Openreach would class that as a full blown fault....  but it could indicate a copper impedance mismatch, which in turn would cause the line to throw errors.   
The echo effect may show up on a JDSU which could give the engineer a more exact reading for distance. If he can see it on the JDSU then it may give an indication where to look, there's several things that could cause this; but in view of how small the bumps are IMHO slight corrosion on a joint is probably most likely,  but it can even be caused by damp weather.

It's looking like one of those stupid faults which is hard to track down until the line begins to get real bad.  I sympathise, been there, done it. Seen an engineer try work his butt off to track down the problem because standard tests pass.

It's very important to remember that hlog log is a capture of a moment in time, so you'd need to see this over several hlogs before drawing more definite conclusions.

Others may have some thoughts on impedance mismatch and what could be a small signal reflection showing in the lower tones from that one hlog.

Here's the Hlog and QLN from the very recent and brief test with the HG612:
https://imgur.com/a/awWlv

Maybe I'm wrong but they look fine? You're right I think, it's going to be one of these faults which are difficult to trace until the problem gets worse.

I'm waiting to see what AAISP have to say hopefully tomorrow. I'm going to suggest whether I should buy a Zyxel VMG1312-B10D to AAISP tomorrow as well since that's their default choice of supplied router/modem so if there's a problem with that too then there's no arguing that there's something not right about my line and will hopefully give them the ammunition they need to get Openreach to look into this further. I mean I could use the DrayTek Vigor 2860Vac but why should I be limited to only being able to safely use one modem unless it rains heavy :P?
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: kitz on October 22, 2017, 11:49:03 AM
Hmmm yes hlog is perfect in your latest set.

It is this one which raised my eyebrow.
https://imgur.com/cpHhwvR
Note the small bumps in D1 on that graph which indicate a small amount of signal reflection.   If its only there sometimes (for eg when its damp) then it makes it hard to track down.  :'(


 
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: kitz on October 22, 2017, 12:04:32 PM
Quote
I'm going to suggest whether I should buy a Zyxel VMG1312-B10D

Personally I'd go for an B10A - but thats just my choice.   The B10A's are more expensive but they do have an internal noise filter and a slightly better chipset.    My router of choice is a VMG8324-B10A, which despite me being on an ECI cab runs far better than any other modem on my line. 

I do have a VMG1312-B10D as my backup modem.  Now't wrong with the B10D's & its on a par or just slightly better than the HG612's, but the B10A's do have an edge because of the internal noise filter.
When I had line probs and was getting lots of errors, I put the VMG1312-B10D on to check it wasnt my modem at fault. 
On my line the VMG1312-B10D gave slightly less errors than the HG612 (which admittedly I only left that on for a few mins)..  but in turn I ended up putting my VMG8324-B10A back on as that was without doubt best of the bunch.

AAISP used to sell the VMG1312-B10A, I wonder if they may have an old one knocking around which they could offer to loan you... if you either promise to return or purchase if it works out well?

*caveat.   
Not all lines run the same and what is best for one line may not necessarily be best for all. 
There are a couple of people who say the B10A's didn't work as well on their line, but on the whole most people do find they do outperform most other modems regardless of which type of cab.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 22, 2017, 12:21:23 PM
Hmmm yes hlog is perfect in your latest set.

It is this one which raised my eyebrow.
https://imgur.com/cpHhwvR
Note the small bumps in D1 on that graph which indicate a small amount of signal reflection.   If its only there sometimes (for eg when its damp) then it makes it hard to track down.  :'(

Oh yeah, forgot about that one :P. Yeah those bumps. That's from the first line. I've just plugged the HG612 into that line and here's the latest Hlog and QLN from that one. No bumps at the moment though.

https://imgur.com/a/bOGdV

I've started submitting data from that line to MDWS again for now. If I end up getting the Zyxel or putting the HG612 on the new line (depends what AAISP say tomorrow) then I'll start submitting data from the new line instead. Just a matter of waiting now to see what happens tomorrow or the day after.

Regarding the B10A, I didn't realise that so thanks for that info! I'll suggest B10A instead tomorrow then or maybe I'll just buy one, not sure yet. I'll see if Amazon prime has it as I could get it tomorrow if so, just need to decide. Would be nice if AAISP had a spare to loan for testing but I wouldn't expect an ISP to loan me a modem for testing so can understand if they don't. I have quite a few spare modems now, I think I should try to get rid of a few of them haha.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: ejs on October 22, 2017, 12:46:58 PM
I've moved the modem outside the cabinet and used a short cable (that cable on eBay for those with problems or w/e, with that ferrite bead integrated), with a micro-filter. Not sure if it's the cable, the micro-filter or merely just the way the line has now become but the Hlog graph looks different.

https://i.imgur.com/cpHhwvR.png

A nice wave like line on the first downstream band.

I'll try switching to a simple flat RJ11 cable to see if it disappears, then if not I'll try switching back to the MK3 SSFP. Interesting though.

EDIT: The mentioned cable from eBay caused that wave like line it seems, now it's smooth with a flat RJ11 cable. FEC errors are still there however, in a large amount. I hope the engineer decides to try a 'circuit recalc' and it should hopefully reveal the stupidly high amount of error seconds I had (especially with the amount of FEC errors I'm getting still). On the other hand, re-syncing made my line attenuation return to normal.

I thought it was concluded that the waves on the HLog graph were caused by that "special" modem lead.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 22, 2017, 01:14:23 PM
I thought it was concluded that the waves on the HLog graph were caused by that "special" modem lead.

I'm using that 'special' cable still and it hasn't done it since then.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: j0hn on October 22, 2017, 06:20:22 PM
AAISP switched from the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A to the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10D because of some issues with the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A that Zyxel couldn't or wouldn't fix (ipv6 related I believe).
However all the issues only affected this using the device as a combined modem/router. None of them affected the device on bridge mode.
If you're going to use it on bridge mode them I would also recommend the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: vic0239 on October 22, 2017, 06:28:24 PM
AAISP used to sell the VMG1312-B10A, I wonder if they may have an old one knocking around which they could offer to loan you... if you either promise to return or purchase if it works out well?
I think they have sold out of the B10A. When I was looking for a spare recently I enquired, but was told they were all sold. :(

They are pretty accommodating though, once having sent me two B10Ds on sale or return which I did return as they didnt perform as well on my lines.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: vic0239 on October 22, 2017, 06:33:35 PM
If you're going to use it on bridge mode them I would also recommend the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A.
Id second that.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 22, 2017, 06:38:27 PM
Thanks for the replies all. I've decided based on reviews/comments, the fact AAISP originally supplied the B10A and the fact it has an internal noise filter, to order one. I will be using it as a modem only as my Ubiquiti EdgeRouter will always be the router. As it's Amazon Prime it's due to arrive tomorrow, if that also produces similar results to the HG612 and ECI /r with LEDE then it's got to be certain something isn't right and might just need persistence before the problem is eventually found and resolved.

I'll update the thread again once I have news.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: ejs on October 22, 2017, 06:47:26 PM
Without looking at all the stats and graphs, would you actually notice any problem?
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 22, 2017, 07:09:36 PM
Without looking at all the stats and graphs, would you actually notice any problem?

If it resulted in fairly moderate to heavy interleaving being enabled such as INP 4 and delay 12ms or worse (like my first line), yes. Speed probably a bit less and ping would definitely be higher. Not preferable. I can tolerate INP 3 delay 8ms, but anything more aggressive than that is not nice. If I was just a simple web surfer sure, I wouldn't care at all either way, but I'm not just someone who does simple browsing to places like Facebook or just check emails.

If I had the choice to keep fastpath without DLM meddling with my line, I would also be fine with that, but DLM is like some kind of secret locked down box that nobody can open up except OR.

I realise OR probably has the understanding of generally accepting interleaving as a solution to some broadband issues, but in reality it's something used to mask a problem and a quick and sloppy workaround.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: ejs on October 22, 2017, 07:39:07 PM
but in reality it's something used to mask a problem and a quick and sloppy workaround.

This seems to be a fashionable opinion to state and copy, but I think in reality it's that broadband technologies use a lot of complicated processing tricks to make it work over some bits of wire that really weren't designed for it, and error correction is a part of that. The error correction capabilities of FEC/interleaving are not always a bad or unwanted aspect. People seem to assume that the level of FEC errors is going to directly equate to the level of CRC errors if the FEC were removed, and the overhead used to carry the FEC data is all wasted bandwidth that you'd get to use if the FEC were taken away. But it doesn't quite work like that.

The solution to DLM adjusting your line seems to be to adjust your line even more than the DLM would do yourself. For another solution that's worse than the problem, how about ordering a 40/10 service instead of 80/20?
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Chrysalis on October 22, 2017, 10:23:06 PM
Interleaving is a useful technology, but I think we all not going to agree on how it should be implemented.

My personal view is it should be used as a temporary means of masking a problem until a proper solution is put in place (generally fixing line issues, implementing crosstalk prevention etc.), interleaving could also be useful for seeing if the line itself is the cause of problems such as if problems go away if interleaving is applied.  I dont think it should ever be used as a long term solution to problems like openreach use it for.  Openreach seem to use interleaving as a tool to "hide" line problems, very likely for financial reasons.  Openreach is the service provider so ultimately what they set as the spec is what we have to deal with.

For this reason we cannot simply say that if a line is using interleaving then its a faulty service because it is not.  My issue with ixel's line is when he last posted his fast path stats, he was exceeding the daily ES rate in one single hour, and to boot this is happening on a moderately short line as well.  There is something somewhere injecting some serious noise onto that line. 

For me personally interleaving is service affecting, web browsing is noticeably slower, services like netflix take longer to hit max resolution and download speeds are reduced.  But again we have to look at what openreach considers service affecting, if things are "slower" then they wont consider it service impacting unless the sync speed is extremely low (yes I consider the handback threshold extremely low, its a very lowballed figure).  But of course many people are just used to interleaving for several years so dont notice it or are perhaps less sensitive than myself to performance issues.

All this seems to come back to the way the UK market has gone, its a market where operating costs are aggressively been minimised to support the type of price levels that ofcom want in the market. Openreach especially has been squeezed as their revenue for each line has actually gone down in real terms over the past 5 years.

ejs, a 40/10 fast path service is actually faster than a interleaved 80/20 service for most activities due to the lower latency, dns lookups are quicker, tcp sessions establish quicker, and speeds ramp up quicker.

If my own line ever hit the problem ixel has and I hit a brickwall getting it back to fast path I would very likely downgrade the product just to get it back on fast path.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 23, 2017, 10:25:30 AM
This seems to be a fashionable opinion to state and copy, but I think in reality it's that broadband technologies use a lot of complicated processing tricks to make it work over some bits of wire that really weren't designed for it, and error correction is a part of that. The error correction capabilities of FEC/interleaving are not always a bad or unwanted aspect. People seem to assume that the level of FEC errors is going to directly equate to the level of CRC errors if the FEC were removed, and the overhead used to carry the FEC data is all wasted bandwidth that you'd get to use if the FEC were taken away. But it doesn't quite work like that.

The solution to DLM adjusting your line seems to be to adjust your line even more than the DLM would do yourself. For another solution that's worse than the problem, how about ordering a 40/10 service instead of 80/20?

G.INP for example, which I think many Huawei DSLAM's have had the fortune of having for a long time now, is a good technology. I don't mind traditional interleaving if it's just INP 3 delay 8ms at most but even then I notice the effect it has. Some people don't notice it, some do. So like Chrysalis said, I too feel it's service affecting and should only be used as a temporary means of keeping a connection stable but not as an actual solution which OR appear to be relying on it for sometimes.

AAISP doesn't offer a 40/10 service on Soho::1 2TB from what I can see, but even then I would like to keep the upload speed. I could however artificially cap the connection via the modem, e.g. 60/20, 55/20, or whatever speed shows more stability on fastpath when using a modem other than the DrayTek currently.

Interleaving is a useful technology, but I think we all not going to agree on how it should be implemented.

My personal view is it should be used as a temporary means of masking a problem until a proper solution is put in place (generally fixing line issues, implementing crosstalk prevention etc.), interleaving could also be useful for seeing if the line itself is the cause of problems such as if problems go away if interleaving is applied.  I dont think it should ever be used as a long term solution to problems like openreach use it for.  Openreach seem to use interleaving as a tool to "hide" line problems, very likely for financial reasons.  Openreach is the service provider so ultimately what they set as the spec is what we have to deal with.

For this reason we cannot simply say that if a line is using interleaving then its a faulty service because it is not.  My issue with ixel's line is when he last posted his fast path stats, he was exceeding the daily ES rate in one single hour, and to boot this is happening on a moderately short line as well.  There is something somewhere injecting some serious noise onto that line. 

For me personally interleaving is service affecting, web browsing is noticeably slower, services like netflix take longer to hit max resolution and download speeds are reduced.  But again we have to look at what openreach considers service affecting, if things are "slower" then they wont consider it service impacting unless the sync speed is extremely low (yes I consider the handback threshold extremely low, its a very lowballed figure).  But of course many people are just used to interleaving for several years so dont notice it or are perhaps less sensitive than myself to performance issues.

All this seems to come back to the way the UK market has gone, its a market where operating costs are aggressively been minimised to support the type of price levels that ofcom want in the market. Openreach especially has been squeezed as their revenue for each line has actually gone down in real terms over the past 5 years.

ejs, a 40/10 fast path service is actually faster than a interleaved 80/20 service for most activities due to the lower latency, dns lookups are quicker, tcp sessions establish quicker, and speeds ramp up quicker.

If my own line ever hit the problem ixel has and I hit a brickwall getting it back to fast path I would very likely downgrade the product just to get it back on fast path.

I agree. I can't downgrade the speed from what I can see however, but I could always artificially cap the speed via the modem itself if I want to use something other than the DrayTek currently. This isn't the real solution though of course.

The Zyxel VMG1312-B10A is arriving this morning so we'll see what that does. I'll also inform AAISP shortly, just giving them some time to possibly get back to me regarding the data I sent on Saturday.

EDIT: B10A plugged in and should be uploading to MDWS now. Errors are through the roof and QLN looks rather interesting. I'm using the supplied RJ11 cable just as further elimination of doubt that any of my cables are damaged. QLN hasn't uploaded though so I'll post it here.

https://i.imgur.com/pq3NYgZ.png
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 23, 2017, 02:10:48 PM
I've been told another SFI engineer will be coming tomorrow, fingers crossed they can identify the problem this time.

Apparently service test passed fine but there are errors on Yukon (DSL diagnostics facility?). TTB tried to escalate but couldn't as service is too new I think, but contacted the OR SMC and want the D side investigated by the engineer, the errors to be cleared and a co-op with TTB's assurance team. In the meantime I've left the Zyxel connected for collecting statistics, no doubt interleaving will say good morning to me again tomorrow :P.

For the SFI engineer I will also leave the Zyxel in place as the only modem on display. I'll pack up the DrayTek, ECI /r and HG612 and put them in a cupboard.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: burakkucat on October 23, 2017, 05:44:43 PM
I've just taken a quick look via MDWS (both QLN & Hlog are now visible) and noticed that the high frequency tail-end droop of the Hlog plot has returned. It is an enigma and only seems to appear on circuits connected to an ECI Hi-FOCuS Mini-Shelf M41 MSAN.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 23, 2017, 06:28:09 PM
I've just taken a quick look via MDWS (both QLN & Hlog are now visible) and noticed that the high frequency tail-end droop of the Hlog plot has returned. It is an enigma and only seems to appear on circuits connected to an ECI Hi-FOCuS Mini-Shelf M41 MSAN.

Are you certain? I still see my old QLN when I check. I also see the date/time say 'as of 12 Oct 2017 23:57'. Maybe my browser is caching the 'current' output somehow? But yeah, the tail-end droop is there on the latest Hlog when I check DSLstats.

AAISP also told me to call them tomorrow if I want them to discuss this matter with the engineer when he/she is here. I'll probably do that if I find the engineer can't find a problem on his/her tester (which I expect) and isn't 'co-op' with TTB as TTB requested. However fingers crossed things will go better this time and some progress will be made, even if it's not fixed tomorrow I'll just be happy if the engineer agrees there's a fault somewhere on Openreach's network and that they need to arrange for a fix. I'm just hoping I don't get the same SFI engineer again, god help me if I do haha. Fortunately I've not been handed any SFI related charges yet and AAISP are staying on top of this matter unlike Zen.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: tbailey2 on October 23, 2017, 08:11:26 PM
If you look closely at your SNRM plot then you'll see that you are not uploading anything at 57m to the hour which is when the various tone related files are uploaded. This is usually due to a timeout in DSLStats. Anything in the Event Log? Your uploads take place currently at 20s past the minute which should be fine. It's also unusual on a Windows machine and more common on an RPi.

So what has possibly changed since the last okay upload on 12 Oct?

You could try stopping the current upload and then restarting at about 50s to the minute so it pauses and restarts early in the minute offering maximum processing time.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Black Sheep on October 23, 2017, 08:19:18 PM
Few things you could maybe mention to the engineer, to show you know your stuff kind of thing  ;)

Ask him/her to run the 'Auto-protective PQT test', this will highlight a potential HR fault that a 'Standard PQT' may miss.

Ask what the leg-balances are from that same test (A very good circuit will be within 3ohms of each other).

Ask the same about the AC Balance figure ...... anything over 55dB is ok, if it's in the 60's it's great. Bear in mind, it depends on the cable make-up (Ali or Copper)  as to what this figure will be ??.

After they have performed their mandatory 'DSL Close out test', ask if they wouldn't mind running the basic xDSL test whilst using the landline on 'Quiet Line Test' and again whilst ringing the landline number.
Personal experience shows that there is more chance of seeing errors when just connected to the DSLAM in the Exchange (xDSL test), than connected to the RAS (DSL Close out test).

Of course, they don't have to do any of the suggestions I've made .... but any engineer worth his salt will generally listen to the EU and try to satisfy their requests, so long as it isn't silly and massively time-consuming, (we are after all monitored on task-times, although not as harshly these days).

My suggestions above (the xDSL test to DSLAM only) will add approximately 10 more mins over and above the mandatory PQT and DSL Close out tests.

Hope this helps ??.  :)



Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 23, 2017, 09:38:23 PM
If you look closely at your SNRM plot then you'll see that you are not uploading anything at 57m to the hour which is when the various tone related files are uploaded. This is usually due to a timeout in DSLStats. Anything in the Event Log? Your uploads take place currently at 20s past the minute which should be fine. It's also unusual on a Windows machine and more common on an RPi.

So what has possibly changed since the last okay upload on 12 Oct?

You could try stopping the current upload and then restarting at about 50s to the minute so it pauses and restarts early in the minute offering maximum processing time.

I've started and stopped DSLstats a few times lately so maybe something's got confused. I'm running DSLstats from a Docker container on my Synology NAS. Perhaps something has just got confused and I need to restart the container itself. I'll restart the container and if not then also try what you suggested. Thanks!

EDIT: QLN and Hlog have now uploaded and show for me.

Few things you could maybe mention to the engineer, to show you know your stuff kind of thing  ;)

Ask him/her to run the 'Auto-protective PQT test', this will highlight a potential HR fault that a 'Standard PQT' may miss.

Ask what the leg-balances are from that same test (A very good circuit will be within 3ohms of each other).

Ask the same about the AC Balance figure ...... anything over 55dB is ok, if it's in the 60's it's great. Bear in mind, it depends on the cable make-up (Ali or Copper)  as to what this figure will be ??.

After they have performed their mandatory 'DSL Close out test', ask if they wouldn't mind running the basic xDSL test whilst using the landline on 'Quiet Line Test' and again whilst ringing the landline number.
Personal experience shows that there is more chance of seeing errors when just connected to the DSLAM in the Exchange (xDSL test), than connected to the RAS (DSL Close out test).

Of course, they don't have to do any of the suggestions I've made .... but any engineer worth his salt will generally listen to the EU and try to satisfy their requests, so long as it isn't silly and massively time-consuming, (we are after all monitored on task-times, although not as harshly these days).

My suggestions above (the xDSL test to DSLAM only) will add approximately 10 more mins over and above the mandatory PQT and DSL Close out tests.

Hope this helps ??.  :)

Many thanks for the suggestions! I'll try to mention this if they seem to be having issues finding a fault again. I don't know about all of the above, but I think the engineer last Friday did one of the suggestions you mentioned (xDSL test while running Quiet Line Test). I recall him, well, sort of complaining about how the AAISP's landline QLT just cuts off after around two minutes. Unlike how other landlines usually run, AAISP's landline is just an automated message that happens shortly after you pick up the phone and lasts around two minutes with a man saying "quiet line test".
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Chrysalis on October 24, 2017, 02:12:07 AM
22k plus errored seconds in 11 hours on a line with 18db attenuation, absolutely crazy.  Never seen such a thing on any line before.

Black Sheep seems to have offered some very good advice as well, I think I will keep the notes from his post for if I ever need a engineer in future.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 24, 2017, 10:35:59 AM
22k plus errored seconds in 11 hours on a line with 18db attenuation, absolutely crazy.  Never seen such a thing on any line before.

Black Sheep seems to have offered some very good advice as well, I think I will keep the notes from his post for if I ever need a engineer in future.

Indeed it is, well hopefully the engineer will find something this afternoon. If they appear to be struggling I'll try Black Sheep's useful suggestions first and if not then I'll call AAISP and ask them to talk with the engineer (as they offered to do so). Something's wrong but it's a matter of it being 'detected'. I'm sure the engineer's tester modem will once again show a normal/fair amount of error seconds and CRC errors again, but as soon as I plug in the HG612, Zyxel VMG1312-B10A or the ECI /r with LEDE I'll see them back again in huge amounts. It's a day of fine rain today by the looks of it so maybe that'll help highlight a problem. It was also raining yesterday but only light rain.

I was on the AAISP IRC recently and one or two members were of the opinion that I should just stick to the DrayTek and accept things as they are as it's a 'best efforts' service. Just a nice excuse if you ask me. However if the second visit fails to find a fault then I will probably do that unless AAISP still wish to chase this matter further. They're aware of the DrayTek and engineer's tester modem working fine as I've explained this to them and they're still chasing to get this matter resolved, so I have a feeling they won't give up easily :).
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 24, 2017, 02:24:50 PM
Few things you could maybe mention to the engineer, to show you know your stuff kind of thing  ;)

[truncated]

Engineer's been, he was a very talkative and helpful person unlike the one I had last Friday. He actually did pretty much all of what you suggested too and gave me the information from the auto-protective PQT test :).

AC DC Voltage (all legs) 0v

Insulation Resistance (A to B?) 11.08 Mohm

A to E 3.89 Mohm

B to E 3.02 Mohm

Disc Comp (forgot what the full wording of this one was, something capacitance?) 150 nf

A to E 202 nf

B to E 100% capacity

Loop Resistance A to B 504

A to E and B to E 427

AC Balance 68.5 dB


Sorry if some information is confusing, I had to write it down fairly fast :P.

Which from what you said and what the engineer said this afternoon indicates a very good quality?

He couldn't find a fault but agreed that the CRC errors and error seconds I've accumulated on fastpath on both the HG612 and Zyxel VMG1312-B10A are ridiculous. He agreed about the junction on the main road but it's a matter of 'when it breaks or enough people report problems' from what I was told. He also agreed that interleaving is just masking a problem and isn't a solution. He offered to try to do a pair swap but given some other neighbours (I informed him) also told me they've had some kind of an issue with their broadband connection then the chances are that a pair swap will just make matters worse, so we both agreed not to do that. He's going to highlight the junction on the main road to Openreach as he suspects the previous SFI engineer didn't even highlight it. I've also emailed AAISP about what happened, will wait to see what they say.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Black Sheep on October 24, 2017, 03:11:05 PM
Hi ....

Yeah, the figures there aren't 'uniform' in the way they are presented ...... but I totally get the gist of what they are saying and yes, as far as the auto-indicative PQT test goes ... you have a damned good pair of wires !!

In a nutshell, working down the list ..........

Your circuit has no 'battery contact' issues and obviously not connected to the mains voltage either  ;).

Your circuit has no short circuit/resistive short circuit condition, and neither any kind of 'Earth contact fault', as the IR (Insulation Resistances) are all mega-ohm values.

The "Disc Comp" is actually 'Dis Capacitance' and I can tell you now, there's not many circuits that get tested will have a perfect 100% value !!

The only thing I don't understand (and I appreciate you had to write them down hastily), is the 'Loop resistance' value and subsequent A to E ... B to E values.
The loop resistance of 504ohms, should then see a perfect circuit being A to E at 252ohms, and B to E at 252ohms ..... in other words each 'leg' or each wire if you will has the same resistance value for the entirety of its length. Again, something as rare as Unicorn sh1t for the most part !!But fear not, the 'Dis Cap' test mentioned above is as good an indicator as the 'Loop res' test.

An AC Bal of 68.5 is very, very good.

So, all-in-all ...... I wouldn't want that pair of wires swopping going off those results. As mooted previously though, there are a tiny percentage of lines that still error even on lines like yours. Did the engineer perform the xDSL test and run a 'QLT' at the same time ?? That really is the only way left to try and force the circuit to error ??

 
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 24, 2017, 03:54:40 PM
Hi ....

Yeah, the figures there aren't 'uniform' in the way they are presented ...... but I totally get the gist of what they are saying and yes, as far as the auto-indicative PQT test goes ... you have a damned good pair of wires !!

In a nutshell, working down the list ..........

Your circuit has no 'battery contact' issues and obviously not connected to the mains voltage either  ;).

Your circuit has no short circuit/resistive short circuit condition, and neither any kind of 'Earth contact fault', as the IR (Insulation Resistances) are all mega-ohm values.

The "Disc Comp" is actually 'Dis Capacitance' and I can tell you now, there's not many circuits that get tested will have a perfect 100% value !!

The only thing I don't understand (and I appreciate you had to write them down hastily), is the 'Loop resistance' value and subsequent A to E ... B to E values.
The loop resistance of 504ohms, should then see a perfect circuit being A to E at 252ohms, and B to E at 252ohms ..... in other words each 'leg' or each wire if you will has the same resistance value for the entirety of its length. Again, something as rare as Unicorn sh1t for the most part !!But fear not, the 'Dis Cap' test mentioned above is as good an indicator as the 'Loop res' test.

An AC Bal of 68.5 is very, very good.

So, all-in-all ...... I wouldn't want that pair of wires swopping going off those results. As mooted previously though, there are a tiny percentage of lines that still error even on lines like yours. Did the engineer perform the xDSL test and run a 'QLT' at the same time ?? That really is the only way left to try and force the circuit to error ??

Hi,
Thanks for the feedback! That's good to hear I have an excellent pair of wires and am glad I didn't go ahead with trying a pair swap. No way will I be letting this pair be swapped then :P.

Yes, the engineer did perform an xDSL test and QLT and like my DrayTek router for some reason it handles the problem and shows no real indication of a fault as such, where on my HG612, ECI /r with LEDE firmware and finally a brand new Zyxel VMG1312-B10A I see thousands of error seconds in a short timeframe (approximately 1 error second for every 5 seconds of uptime). The engineer agreed that the chances of all the other devices I tried showing excessive errors actually being faulty is very unlikely. I'm just stumped. I mean I could always just only use my DrayTek and I'll probably have few issues, it's just a bit frustrating to know there's something not right somewhere but there's no test which can identify the cause currently.

I'll leave it up to AAISP as to decide what to do next as I realise this is going to be very tricky. I know they've tried so I won't blame them in the slightest if they say to me that there's nothing more they can do at this time. They're currently waiting for the engineer notes before deciding on how it's best to proceed. Once again thanks for the feedback and suggestions :).
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Black Sheep on October 24, 2017, 05:49:52 PM
No worries, mate. Hope you get it sorted.  :)
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Chrysalis on October 24, 2017, 08:11:59 PM
Its perhaps looking more likely someone in the vicinity has a dodgy sky box or something if the pair is perfect?

Interesting just after midnight your errored seconds paused, as if the noise stopped but then proceeded again a bit later.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 24, 2017, 11:32:10 PM
Its perhaps looking more likely someone in the vicinity has a dodgy sky box or something if the pair is perfect?

Interesting just after midnight your errored seconds paused, as if the noise stopped but then proceeded again a bit later.

Yeah I think you could be on to something there, as when I used the ASUS to restrict the D3 band's frequency usage I noticed the problem drastically improved. So perhaps something is causing noise somewhere in the D3 band's frequency range? It's interesting how the engineer's tester's modem and my DrayTek can however somehow ignore this (or rather, make most of them into FEC errors instead). Well if AAISP close the fault then I'll go back to the DrayTek and stick with that. I imagine 2 to 3 days of maintaining ILQ green will put me back on fastpath given this is my first DLM intervention since the DLM reset was done on Friday.

I should hear tomorrow all being well.

Engineer's summary (on the notes) was: "This line is test perfectly, at this moment in time. But it does have a history of errors .. I have upgraded the network. Pq test vdsl test and fast test ltok"

If it's noise caused by some faulty appliance in another property then it's going to be next to impossible to get sorted. I have a Tecsun radio which does SW, MW and LW (the PL660 I think it's called) so if I walked along the route the line takes I might find where the noise is coming from.

EDIT: I wonder if it could be someone with a 'dodgy' PLC (homeplug). Hmm. Anyway should be getting an update from AAISP this morning, I haven't told them however about this theory yet and not sure if it's wise to. I suppose it can't hurt to mention this possibility.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 25, 2017, 11:09:04 AM
Just to update to say that AAISP haven't currently given up on this. I just had an update this morning to tell me that they are chasing the 'escalations case handler' on this and will be discussing what else could be done to minimise the errors they're seeing. They also thanked me for the notes that I regularly add to my CQM graphs regarding the cause of the downtime/loss of sync, excessive errors, QLN graph or such, and say the information is very useful. They're going to update me again as soon as they hear back from the case handler.

This is what I call excellent customer service and even if they can't resolve this problem I'll be giving them a five out of five review for their efforts and persistence!
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: kitz on October 25, 2017, 11:23:31 AM
Can I just check I'm looking at the same line as the stats reading I did in your 1st post?  :-\

Having just looked at your latest SNR/Tone compared to the one here (https://imgur.com/a/FBi7z), it almost doesnt look like the same line.   As mentioned in my earlier post, the first graph seemed to show RFI/EMI centered around tone 1700.
Yet you latest graph shows D2 as pretty clean. Even the upstream looks different.   
D3 now has an extended bit load (3000->4074), but some signs of RFI circa tones 3500
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: kitz on October 25, 2017, 11:39:47 AM
22k plus errored seconds in 11 hours on a line with 18db attenuation, absolutely crazy.  Never seen such a thing on any line before.

Mine can and does... which is why I have to watch it like a hawk and why if Im now going to be out for an extended period I turn my modem off. 
I'm only 12dB atten, yet Ive seen it rack up 10k Err/Secs in just a couple of hours.    However mine is different in that something will trigger it then I can clear it by powering down for a short while.   
Its a PITA because DLM would really hammer me if I didnt.  It's also why being with an ISP who uses DLM Speed profile is important otherwise the days I do get caught out, then I'd have a real hard time reversing it.

Quote
 
Black Sheep seems to have offered some very good advice as well, I think I will keep the notes from his post for if I ever need a engineer in future.

Ditto :thumbs:
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 25, 2017, 11:52:09 AM
Can I just check I'm looking at the same line as the stats reading I did in your 1st post?  :-\

Having just looked at your latest SNR/Tone compared to the one here (https://imgur.com/a/FBi7z), it almost doesnt look like the same line.   As mentioned in my earlier post, the first graph seemed to show RFI/EMI centered around tone 1700.
Yet you latest graph shows D2 as pretty clean. Even the upstream looks different.   
D3 now has an extended bit load (3000->4074), but some signs of RFI circa tones 3500

Sorry for the confusion. The first post is from my first line with Zen. The new line with AAISP produces a completely different SNR graph, particularly on the upstream. This could be due to a combination of both the pair I'm on and the fact the line card is running a different version (b206 on the first line, d086 on the second line). The power on the downstream for example is around 13 on the new line that's on a line card running d086, where on the first line that's on a line card running b206 I think it was around half that.

Essentially although it's the same wire running from the house to the cabinet, it's just on a different pair and a line card running a different version. The underlying problem however is still present of course.

EDIT: As Victor Meldrew from One Foot In The Grave used to say, "I don't believe it!". Astoundingly another SFI engineer has been booked by TTB to currently come tomorrow, it's a morning slot where I would prefer afternoon so am waiting for confirmation on that. I didn't ask for a third SFI engineer but apparently they aren't satisfied with the previous engineer. They requested that the D-side be investigated, but the engineer notes don't indicate any such investigation. They also requested a coop with their assurance team which didn't happen. I've asked for clarification on what D-side investigation means, as I imagine it's more than just testing from the master socket.

Despite the PQT passing and everything from the engineer's tests appearing to be fine, the line to be of good quality according to the PQT, and the engineer offering a pair swap which we agreed was a fruitless exercise, they're still booking another SFI engineer due to the errors on Yukon. I'm not complaining so long as I don't get landed with three or more SFI charges in the end, I was prepared to accept that this fault might be too difficult to identify the cause of after two SFI visits. It seems AAISP and/or TTB aren't satisfied with the results of the previous two SFI engineer visits though.

I don't know what a D-side investigation may accomplish, though the line did drop under heavy rain two or three times last Saturday, but the PQT and Hlog show nothing wrong with the actual line and to be in excellent condition. However I'll just go with what AAISP/TTB feel is best to do.

EDIT 2: Been told the engineer will be informed of the line history by the Openreach escalations team, expecting them again tomorrow afternoon. Wish me luck! I've also mentioned the pattern pointed out on here regarding my error seconds/hour and then FEC errors/min both dropping in the early hours of the morning and then returning to their usual amount again. Thanks for highlighting that.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: NewtronStar on October 25, 2017, 07:09:03 PM
Three Openreach Engineer visits in less than a week that is impressive, I remember having two visits within two months last year with a Vodafone Hardware issue and that was more than I could handle, So well done to You and the ISP.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Black Sheep on October 25, 2017, 07:35:16 PM
If the job is now being handled by the 'Escalations Team', then they will have contacted the OM (Operational Manager) for your area explaining the high-repeat aspect of the task, and they in turn will have to proffer an engineer who they think will be the best man/woman for the job.

Yes, I do quite a few of these types of job  :blush:, and the way they are presented to the engineer is far better than the bog-standard offering. Lots, lots more information of previous visits, test results, potential next steps to take etc etc ....

The main difference being, on a bog-standard task we are told NOT to carry out any speculative changes in the network if the mandatory tests pass. With an 'escalated task', we are afforded a bit more of a free reign.

I kinda feel sorry for the previous engineer who sounds like from your wording, that he did pretty much everything I would have done ?? Again, from your PQT test and with the only absent reading being the leg-balance, it appears you have a gold-plated D-side ??.

Ah well, the dark-art that is broadband faulting will always conjure up anomalies !! I will be extremely interested to see how this progresses.  :)
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 25, 2017, 09:23:42 PM
If the job is now being handled by the 'Escalations Team', then they will have contacted the OM (Operational Manager) for your area explaining the high-repeat aspect of the task, and they in turn will have to proffer an engineer who they think will be the best man/woman for the job.

Yes, I do quite a few of these types of job  :blush:, and the way they are presented to the engineer is far better than the bog-standard offering. Lots, lots more information of previous visits, test results, potential next steps to take etc etc ....

The main difference being, on a bog-standard task we are told NOT to carry out any speculative changes in the network if the mandatory tests pass. With an 'escalated task', we are afforded a bit more of a free reign.

I kinda feel sorry for the previous engineer who sounds like from your wording, that he did pretty much everything I would have done ?? Again, from your PQT test and with the only absent reading being the leg-balance, it appears you have a gold-plated D-side ??.

Ah well, the dark-art that is broadband faulting will always conjure up anomalies !! I will be extremely interested to see how this progresses.  :)

I'll keep the post updated :).

I see. Yes, the previous SFI engineer was very helpful and informative. Hopefully the engineer tomorrow won't carry out any pair swap during the inspection/investigation of the D-side as it sounds more and more like this might be an external noise issue of some kind given the pattern on the errors so far the last two nights. I told AAISP about this pattern, well, I pinned it on the CQM and then told them by email and they still want the D-side task carried out. They suggested a REIN engineer might be needed, so they haven't ruled out that possibility. When I showed them the graphs from MDWS showing this error pattern in the early hours of the morning I was told they had seen this, so perhaps they're monitoring my connection from MDWS or maybe they just have access to some ISP tools which show this?

At least I can offer the engineer a nice coffee from the coffee machine here if they want one. Bean to cup with a frothy milky layer on top just like it's from a coffee shop :P.

Three Openreach Engineer visits in less than a week that is impressive, I remember having two visits within two months last year with a Vodafone Hardware issue and that was more than I could handle, So well done to You and the ISP.

Indeed, thanks, I wasn't expecting a third visit nor this amount of persistence. I was fully prepared to accept that the issue is probably too difficult to resolve after the second visit. Although I'm helping with providing statistics/graphs from my Zyxel, AAISP deserves a majority of the credit for their persistence and agreeing that something isn't right even though the standard engineer tests aren't showing a problem. Switching to AAISP is the best thing I've done this year that's for sure, even if it does for some reason end up being that this problem can't be resolved. It shows they won't give up easily on an identified problem even if the engineer's tests pass, where with Zen Internet I didn't even get as far as having an SFI engineer. Fortunately Zen Internet disputed the charge from the voice/line engineer finding no fault as no prior agreement was made about potential charges, so that's a positive thing I can say at least haha.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Black Sheep on October 25, 2017, 09:42:35 PM
Don't go over-the-top with food and drink for the engineer ...... if they're anything like me, they'll be sabotaging your line on a weekly basis hoping to pick up the repeat-report !!  ;) ;D

Seriously though ..... the 'REIN pattern' may not be mentioned on the escalation team's notes to the engineer (usually received via e-mail) ??. So, it may be frugal to mention this just in case.

I can only assume they will perform yet another PQT/DSL test, as this is generally a mandatory action. Maybe this may be your opportunity to see the individual leg-balances to get almost the full picture on the pair of wires quality.
There are a couple of other aspects to the PQT that haven't been covered here (There's WB noise, also a 20 second REIN count, and a PSD (Power Spectral Density) check).

NB ... the tests I mention above are in the format presented to a JDSU hand-held tester. If the engineer has the alternative EXFO HHT, the PQT script will have similar tests but maybe worded differently ??

 
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 25, 2017, 10:01:51 PM
Don't go over-the-top with food and drink for the engineer ...... if they're anything like me, they'll be sabotaging your line on a weekly basis hoping to pick up the repeat-report !!  ;) ;D

Seriously though ..... the 'REIN pattern' may not be mentioned on the escalation team's notes to the engineer (usually received via e-mail) ??. So, it may be frugal to mention this just in case.

I can only assume they will perform yet another PQT/DSL test, as this is generally a mandatory action. Maybe this may be your opportunity to see the individual leg-balances to get almost the full picture on the pair of wires quality.
There are a couple of other aspects to the PQT that haven't been covered here (There's WB noise, also a 20 second REIN count, and a PSD (Power Spectral Density) check).

NB ... the tests I mention above are in the format presented to a JDSU hand-held tester. If the engineer has the alternative EXFO HHT, the PQT script will have similar tests but maybe worded differently ??

Haha, fair enough, I generally ask if they want a coffee or tea. I don't go beyond that for refreshments. The previous engineer didn't want one as they had just come off their lunch.

I see, I will definitely mention and show the potential REIN pattern to the engineer so they're also aware of this possibility. If they perform another PQT test then I'll try to get the results from that, maybe if they allow me I'll take a picture from my mobile of what's shown on their tester. From what I've observed so far the last two engineers were both using a JDSU. If it does eventually end up being concluded that it's REIN that's causing this problem then I can only assume somehow that both the engineer's tester's modem and the DrayTek are somehow capable of 'filtering out' most of this type of noise.

I'm hoping it might be the engineer I had last time as he was a helpful and informative person. We were talking about all sorts of things related to broadband and such, even Adastral Park came up. However, I have a feeling it might be another engineer I've not seen before.

I'll post another update tomorrow shortly after the engineer has finished here, hopefully with some good news.

Thanks for the suggestions :).
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 26, 2017, 03:04:30 PM
Looks like the engineer may have done what he was asked to do, I don't know yet until I see what the engineer notes say. I suddenly found myself without internet for possibly 40 minutes or so, when the connection came back it looks like my upload speed is a little slower now (possibly a pair swap has been done?), DLM has been reset. Errors still present unfortunately, so it's looking more likely that it might be a rather bad source of REIN somewhere. If that's the case then the next step will most likely be asking for a REIN engineer. I'll wait to see what the ISP tell me.

As the engineer hasn't come to the house, yet anyway (if they do), I was unable to get an opportunity to see the PQT test results again and was also unable to highlight the potential pattern of REIN. AAISP however are aware of this possibility as I've told and shown them.

If anything happens to change this afternoon, e.g. engineer turns up and I have more information to offer, then I'll edit this post.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Deathstar on October 26, 2017, 03:11:00 PM
Regarding REIN, have you tried the following?
Turn everything off in the house where possible and ideally at the consumer unit or remove the plug except your modem/router. Then monitor your stats, that way you could possibly isolate the REIN issue to be either internal or external noise.

I've recently had a REIN issue, and I was able to track it down to a PLC (I know...) By following that method.

Just a thought.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 26, 2017, 03:24:01 PM
Regarding REIN, have you tried the following?
Turn everything off in the house where possible and ideally at the consumer unit or remove the plug except your modem/router. Then monitor your stats, that way you could possibly isolate the REIN issue to be either internal or external noise.

I've recently had a REIN issue, and I was able to track it down to a PLC (I know...) By following that method.

Just a thought.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Tried this once, no difference though and also found nothing significant with my Tecsun PL660 radio on various random frequencies in the D3 band.

However, possibly it's just a fluke but suddenly my errors have stopped!

Code: [Select]
Latest 15 minutes time = 8 min 57 sec
FEC:            0               0
CRC:            993             0
ES:             6               0
SES:            3               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC:            0               0
CRC:            857             0
ES:             267             0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0

I'm keeping a close eye on it, I hope the engineer's found the problem :D.

EDIT: Ugh it's back again, not sure if engineer is still working on it though.

Code: [Select]
Latest 15 minutes time = 12 min 51 sec
FEC: 0 1
CRC: 659 0
ES: 148 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 0 9
CRC: 28 5
ES: 12 3
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0

EDIT 2: Engineer has been. Discovered for some reason that the engineers can't call my giffgaff mobile from their mobile even though my number works from other lines fine (e.g. house phone, another mobile). Odd. It's the same engineer from my first SFI visit. Anyway, he spent a while re-doing a joint that apparently had a fault on (40v on?). We spent a while looking at the statistics from the Zyxel, oddly he couldn't get any errors to show up from his mobile (Yukon?) even though the Zyxel was clearly showing them. I mentioned they disappeared for a short time after the work he did but then came back. I also mentioned the overnight pattern and he thinks it may well be REIN. He suggested, to be certain it's nothing in the house, to turn off everything at the fuse box and power the Zyxel via my UPS for a short time just to see if the errors are still coming in. I will try this tomorrow morning and then tell AAISP the result of that, after which the next step will most likely be sending a REIN engineer.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Chrysalis on October 26, 2017, 04:26:10 PM
1480 more than standard daily ES limit in 15 mins ouch, and yeah sounds like you need a REIN engineer now :(
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: ejs on October 26, 2017, 06:34:25 PM
1480 more than standard daily ES limit in 15 mins ouch, and yeah sounds like you need a REIN engineer now :(

There are only 900 seconds in 15 minutes! You can't have more ES than S. The figure in the stats quoted was 148.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 26, 2017, 06:52:11 PM
There are only 900 seconds in 15 minutes! You can't have more ES than S. The figure in the stats quoted was 148.

Haha. Anyway, errors have stopped again it seems, interesting. I've not done anything here to do that though.

EDIT: Now just getting large bursts of CRC errors at the moment (at the time of writing this edit).
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: burakkucat on October 26, 2017, 10:35:42 PM
Upon checking, I see that there was an approximate "manic" hour that started just after 2000 hours and ended just after 2100 hours (today, Thu 26 Oct 2017).
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Chrysalis on October 26, 2017, 10:51:59 PM
There are only 900 seconds in 15 minutes! You can't have more ES than S. The figure in the stats quoted was 148.
true but on my phone there is a 0 at the end :) so it shows 1480

i didnt think when i posted about there only been 900 seconds.

148 in 15 mins is still high but not as high as his previous accumulation
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 27, 2017, 11:07:15 AM
Yeah, I had quite a crazy hour between 8pm and 9pm yesterday. Throughput was bad due to it. Never had that before. Same pattern occurred again in the early hours of the morning. AAISP have suggested trying a lift and shift but I've told them I'm not convinced that'll help as my first line is suffering from this problem as well. The first line is on a different line card and port. I'm waiting for another update, they're waiting for TTB to get back to them.

EDIT: I'm told it would also be a lift and shift at the exchange too, I didn't realise that. Interesting.

I forgot to also mention that I tried powering everything down other than the router, switch and modem (and the UPS on battery) for about 10 minutes but it made no difference to the rate of errors it seems. I also eliminated the UPS from the possibilities, so I think I've pretty much ruled out any internal REIN as powering down almost everything made no difference and I had this issue on my first line with Zen before I had a server cabinet and the Ubiquiti router and switch. Despite the fact the router/switch power supply might have some kind of noise picked up by the Tecsun radio I have, they shouldn't be responsible. I've even situated the modem outside of the server cabinet and the radio doesn't pick up noise other than what the modem is producing due to DSL.

EDIT 2: Had an update, AAISP are still on the case for sure. Openreach service test is apparently failing now. Real-time check of ES and SES exceeded threshold. High errors shown on Yukon.  They've escalated it again to the OR manager to clear the errors, perform a lift and shift and coop with the REIN team.

Also may I ask Black Sheep or another person who might know, what does "Bart fault in pcp100 vert I swapped out pair" from the engineer notes mean? Just curious hehe :P.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Black Sheep on October 27, 2017, 03:33:02 PM
A 'Lift & Shift' at the Exchange ............. never, ever heard of that before ???

Regarding: "Bart fault in pcp100 vert I swapped out pair"" ...... he he he, that will be 'Fat finger syndrome', I'm guessing.

We have to type out our notes on the I-Phone screens and fat-fingers, plus predictive texting, makes for some interesting reading .... I've personally been retrospectively pulled up on job notes I type that included the line 'Subsequent one-shot test towards the .....'. Fat fingers changed the word 'shot'.  ;) ;D ;D

With that in mind, I think the engineer was probably typing 'Batt Fault' as in battery contact fault. It isn't indicated whether this was E or D side, and regardless of which we still have to clear the fault even if it only affects your PSTN service on the E-side.  :)

 

 
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 27, 2017, 04:39:37 PM
A 'Lift & Shift' at the Exchange ............. never, ever heard of that before ???

Regarding: "Bart fault in pcp100 vert I swapped out pair"" ...... he he he, that will be 'Fat finger syndrome', I'm guessing.

We have to type out our notes on the I-Phone screens and fat-fingers, plus predictive texting, makes for some interesting reading .... I've personally been retrospectively pulled up on job notes I type that included the line 'Subsequent one-shot test towards the .....'. Fat fingers changed the word 'shot'.  ;) ;D ;D

With that in mind, I think the engineer was probably typing 'Batt Fault' as in battery contact fault. It isn't indicated whether this was E or D side, and regardless of which we still have to clear the fault even if it only affects your PSTN service on the E-side.  :)

I see, haha yeah I saw the engineer's iPhone as he was showing me a few things on it regarding my connection and I was thinking that's so small compared to my mobile. It was like looking at a postage stamp :P. I'm equally as confused as you regarding the 'lift and shift at the exchange too'. I thought that only applied to ADSL, so it will be another interesting visit I imagine.

Battery contact fault, ah I see. Thanks.

---

Well I've been told an engineer will have to attend on site again so I'm waiting for confirmation on a date/time but I have a feeling it might be tomorrow as I'm on care level 2.5 which should be Monday to Saturday next day if I remember correctly. It's fantastic that AAISP/TTB are remaining on top of my problem unlike my previous ISP. Hopefully an end will be in sight soon.

EDIT: SFI arriving on Monday, will update then.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 30, 2017, 04:41:43 PM
Update: Engineer has been, a different person but a very helpful person. He actually found a problem eventually but can't yet identify where or what the problem is.

He did the usual PQT test and such, nothing showed up as expected. He then did a lift and shift as requested on the job notes, no difference as expected. He then went out for a while to find me the best quality pair (now syncing at 75.3 / 18.2 at the moment, the highest sync so far I believe!), no difference to the errors as expected. Tester's modem showed minimal errors when not via the filtered faceplate as usual, then he tried plugging it in via the filtered faceplate and BANG! He had over 100 CRC errors per minute and they kept coming in ;D! He tried a different RJ11 cable, no difference. He then tried a spare filtered faceplate he had in the van, no difference. He tried a microfilter, no difference. He tried swapping the first line with the second line, no difference.

He's returning tomorrow morning again to check every point of the way (except the manhole on the main road since it's not easy to access due to traffic). If he can't find any problems elsewhere then he'll go ahead with requesting the 'manhole team' look into this I believe. The cable I'm going via is apparently 70+ years old, interesting to know. He suspects this is a slight high resistance problem or corrosion that's only noticeable when on FTTC, if I had ADSL I most likely wouldn't notice it. As it was when I was using the ASUS I tried restricting the D3 band tones and the excessive errors were almost gone. I can't tell you how glad I am that an engineer has now found the fault that I'm having! When I mentioned MJ Quinn did the first FTTC connection, well, lets just say he didn't speak highly about them :P.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Black Sheep on October 30, 2017, 05:59:58 PM
Brilliant result. This kind of visit sounds more like a 'High level' engineering task to me.

As an aside, unless your on a new/ish estate ..... most of the cables in the ground will be 60/70yrs old. Keep us posted, please.  :)
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 31, 2017, 12:13:22 PM
Update: Engineer has been on the job all morning. He's swapped pair at another section of the route which has further improved the sync rate (now 80/20 with a bit spare) and reduced the overall CRC errors per minute. Unfortunately the problem is still present, but doesn't appear to be as bad as it was. He's done another lift and shift, had a problem with a 'split pair' apparently. He wants me to monitor it for up to a week before contacting AAISP again but by the looks of it interleaving will kick in again due to the high ES per minute so far. If it continues then he wants me to contact AAISP again and they will probably investigate the manhole on the main road that was mentioned.

The odd thing is that when he connects his tester via a filter it ends up getting errors like my Zyxel or HG612, but when he connects his tester without a filter it only had 1 CRC error for I believe a few minutes of uptime. I've bought myself an RJ11 to BT adaptor which will hopefully work for testing the Zyxel on an unfiltered connection, I imagine I can pull off the filter on the NTE5C and just plug in to the socket behind it (test socket?) like it used to work on the NTE5A?

EDIT: The only thing he forgot to sort out was the first line's master socket. When it was originally installed a long time ago the engineer could only get it screwed on the wall one with screw. The other hole went wrong or something. The engineer I had was going to sort it out but he's left it hanging off the wall lol, I assume he ran out of time.

EDIT 2: Moderate interleaving has been applied, INP 4 both on downstream and upstream. Possibly rate banded but can't confirm yet, as downstream SNRM is nearly 10 dB.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: j0hn on October 31, 2017, 03:45:30 PM
I use 1 of these from AAISP
Broadband only non-filtering faceplate
https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-accessories.html
Just a RJ45 socket rather than a BT socket.
Red text isn't on the item, just the picture.

Obviously no good if you use the landline. Perfect for your AAISP line though with naked VDSL.

edit: just noticed you have a NTE5c.... eww lol. they're not for me.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 31, 2017, 04:14:34 PM
I use 1 of these from AAISP
Broadband only non-filtering faceplate
https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-accessories.html
Just a RJ45 socket rather than a BT socket.
Red text isn't on the item, just the picture.

Obviously no good if you use the landline. Perfect for your AAISP line though with naked VDSL.

edit: just noticed you have a NTE5c.... eww lol. they're not for me.

Indeed, I can't use that sadly as it's not compatible with the NTE5C. I wish mine was NTE5A and if it wasn't for the fact I'm not allowed to change it then I would've changed it to NTE5A. However AAISP are sending me an LJU to RJ11 cable to try (along with some stickers, lol) so I can bypass the filter. Hopefully it'll yield a successful workaround result. I can at least go by the FEC errors in the meantime, I hope, to determine if the errors are gone. Either that or hope DLM eventually restores me back on fastpath without any additional banding, but AAISP might be able to get a DLM reset arranged if not I guess (though with some difficulty).
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: j0hn on October 31, 2017, 04:26:30 PM
I'm pretty confident AAISP will have an easier way to get DLM resets than most ISP's.
The rep from Uno on TBB says they request an OpenReach frames engineer to perform DLM resets for banding (on OpenReachs advice). This doesn't require a home visit apparently.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 31, 2017, 08:48:54 PM
I'm pretty confident AAISP will have an easier way to get DLM resets than most ISP's.
The rep from Uno on TBB says they request an OpenReach frames engineer to perform DLM resets for banding (on OpenReachs advice). This doesn't require a home visit apparently.

I see, interesting to know :).

I'll wait for the cable to arrive and then see what the initial comparison might be. I really hope this makes a difference like it did for the engineer's JDSU, if it solves the problem then I'll accept it as a workaround/solution. Might need DLM resetting for a fair test but as you say AAISP probably have an easier way than most ISP's for requesting a DLM reset. Also waiting on engineer notes from today pending more discussion most likely tomorrow.

While I'm still curious to understand why using a filter might actually make matters worse, I'll just be happy to see I've got a line with a normal/low amount of background errors.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on October 31, 2017, 11:48:57 PM
Another update, I found in amongst all my spare bits and pieces that I had a rather long shielded RJ11 to BT cable, not desirable as it's quite long but I thought I'd try it anyway.

In terms of FEC errors per minute, so far I'm only getting what seems to be 250-350 on average, with a spike so far around 500. Before I was getting around 1000 per minute on average, sometimes spiking to 3000 or so. Attainable virtually the same, just 1 megabit less on the downstream mainly (probably due to the length of this cable). QLN overall however looks quieter and more flat than bumpy, with the exception for the ADSL2+ tones which is probably understandable. D3 in particular seems better with the spikes near the end no longer being there.

QLN comparison: https://imgur.com/a/BnPjQ

It's not had a lot of uptime yet, only 16 minutes at the time of posting this, so maybe it's a fluke. Looks better without a filter though.

Can't wait to see how AAISP's cable will perform.

EDIT: QLN graph might mean nothing, as I had D3 without the spikes in the past it seems. However FEC errors per minute are lower currently.

EDIT 2: The average after roughly 9 hours is about 20000 FEC errors per hour (or around 333 FEC errors per minute). That's a considerable drop compared to the average of roughly 60000 FEC errors per hour I was originally getting according to DSLstatsw. AAISP's cable is due to arrive this morning, Royal Mail just emailed me.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Chrysalis on November 01, 2017, 11:16:36 AM
Dont you have "unshielded" twisted cables? as shielded cable can make noise worse.

Ideally extremely short cable, twisted no shielding.

If the engineer stopped the errors by removing the faceplate then didnt he try to reattach your modem with that faceplate removed and then you leave it like that? why was the faceplate put back on?

It seems as if your engineers keep running out of time so stop before they finish.

For a line of your spec, on interleaving I would expect maybe a 100 or so FEC a day if its not too noisy or maybe a few thousand or even 5 digits for one day if its noisy, the amount you getting still seems way out of spec.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on November 01, 2017, 11:39:46 AM
Dont you have "unshielded" twisted cables? as shielded cable can make noise worse.

Ideally extremely short cable, twisted no shielding.

If the engineer stopped the errors by removing the faceplate then didnt he try to reattach your modem with that faceplate removed and then you leave it like that? why was the faceplate put back on?

It seems as if your engineers keep running out of time so stop before they finish.

For a line of your spec, on interleaving I would expect maybe a 100 or so FEC a day if its not too noisy or maybe a few thousand or even 5 digits for one day if its noisy, the amount you getting still seems way out of spec.

I have an unshielded twisted pair cable although I think it's over 2 meters long, I was using that. Yesterday night I was using the long shielded RJ11 to BT/LJU cable I found spare. About 30 minutes ago I plugged in the unshielded flat RJ11 to BT/LJU cable that AAISP sent and rate of FEC errors per minute so far seem a little higher than the cable I was using overnight. It's not enough time to really know for sure though. I've asked if it's possible to get DLM reset however so the test and comparison is fair.

It does seem as if the engineer ran out of time. Engineer notes were also interesting I think, see below.

Engineer notes from yesterday:
===Point Of Intervention notes===
At this point...
Plant details...
- Plant affected: PC100
- Plant type: PC
- Multiple Intervention?: N
===Point Of Intervention notes ends===
Is the fault caused by damage to BT plant within the customer's curtilage? - No
EU Setup ok modem (VDSL Modem connected to SSFP)? - Yes
VDSL modem powered up on arrival at EU premises? - Yes
Drop wire/lead-in testing ok to entry point? - Yes
Internal wiring testing ok? - Yes
SSFP Changed? - No
Service meets assured limits (speed up/down)? - Yes

Faulty dslam pairs causing high amount of errors on up and downstream. Possible split pair. Lift and shift to clear. Also d side changed out. Now speeds of 80/20. Jdsu has died so unable to Pqt, line was Pqt passing yesterday though ogea test shows nff Issue.


Following from TTB I think:
No errors yesterday evening and no data on Yukon for today yet. We will monitor further. Can you also please monitor and advise.

Although speeds are now 61/19 thanks to DLM. Yes of course errors aren't showing because INP 4 in both direction... lol.

As for the engineer and the faceplate, I suggested connecting it directly to the socket but I got the impression he didn't seem to think that was possible (or I'd need to buy a cable to do this perhaps?). I agree though, the amount of FEC errors per minute seem to indicate something is still there. I'll give it an hour or so and if the higher rate of FEC errors persist then I'll switch back to the cable I was using overnight, despite it being longer and shielded.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Chrysalis on November 01, 2017, 12:08:35 PM
So he is saying faulty tie pairs, interesting.

You can still monitor FEC when interleaved to have an idea of how well its working, the numbers you posted are extremely high.  I would say a DLM reset right now is fruitless.

Although interleaving may have fooled ttb into thinking its all good? as they have commented "no more errors"?

If you want a comparison, check skyeci's line back in october when he was interleaved and his FEC error rate.

I do agree tho there is a definite improvement on your FEC since the last visit.  The issue seems to be thats its a constant stream of noise, rather than occasional bursts.

Comparing to ronski's work line tho you could argue its ok. That work line has also a very high amount of FEC. But it is a much longer line.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on November 01, 2017, 02:10:43 PM
So he is saying faulty tie pairs, interesting.

You can still monitor FEC when interleaved to have an idea of how well its working, the numbers you posted are extremely high.  I would say a DLM reset right now is fruitless.

Although interleaving may have fooled ttb into thinking its all good? as they have commented "no more errors"?

If you want a comparison, check skyeci's line back in october when he was interleaved and his FEC error rate.

I do agree tho there is a definite improvement on your FEC since the last visit.  The issue seems to be thats its a constant stream of noise, rather than occasional bursts.

Comparing to ronski's work line tho you could argue its ok. That work line has also a very high amount of FEC. But it is a much longer line.

Yeah, true. They are high still yeah. I might put the long shielded wire back on since I think it performed a little better regarding FEC errors maybe, then again it's daytime now so maybe that's why the wire I'm currently using is now showing a slightly higher FEC error rate.

I mentioned the possibility of a DLM reset but AAISP want to leave things as they are for now. TTB won't see a problem I expect as I think Yukon and the GEA FTTC test don't show FEC errors and if they don't then that's probably intentional. I think I'm close to the point where everything possible that could be done has been done and will have to accept this is the best I'm going to get. I just hope DLM relents a little as I don't need interleaving on the upstream and I could probably do fine with INP 3 on the downstream (returning me some sync speed again). However the DrayTek historically has kept fastpath and somehow ignored the errors I've had or am still getting, so it might also be wise to go back to that router/modem eventually.

Things have definitely improved though, less errors and higher sync rate (well above the estimate). My neighbour also told me his speed increased from 45Mbps to 55Mbps this morning, apparently, perhaps his line has improved due to mine getting changes?

Depending on what FTTPoD turns out to cost next year then I might get it and my problems would be over for sure, but if it turns out to still cost thousands potentially then I won't touch it as I don't own the property I live in. It also depends if AAISP will sell it, as after being with them I don't think I'd touch another ISP again unless something radically went downhill.

I'll compare ronski's and skyeci's connection when I'm home a little later today, I'm curious to see.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: WWWombat on November 02, 2017, 09:47:09 PM
While I'm still curious to understand why using a filter might actually make matters worse,

In the end, a filter is an electronic circuit, that attempts to tune a bigger electronic circuit (ie the copper wire, with its inherent resistance, capacitance and inductance, plus a master socket with resistor and capacitor) into behaving a certain way with RF signals.

If there is something wrong with one of the components in the filter, or in the wire, or in the master socket, then that tuning might result in strange effects.

Filters themselves come with all sorts of components...
https://www.adslnation.com/support/filters.php
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on November 03, 2017, 04:12:05 PM
In the end, a filter is an electronic circuit, that attempts to tune a bigger electronic circuit (ie the copper wire, with its inherent resistance, capacitance and inductance, plus a master socket with resistor and capacitor) into behaving a certain way with RF signals.

If there is something wrong with one of the components in the filter, or in the wire, or in the master socket, then that tuning might result in strange effects.

Filters themselves come with all sorts of components...
https://www.adslnation.com/support/filters.php

True. Well I'm going to keep it unfiltered as it seems to work better that way :).

DLM has relaxed the error correction just a few minutes ago thankfully, maybe a few more days and downstream might see fastpath again.

Upstream changed from INP 4 delay 8ms to fastpath.

Downstream changed from INP 4 delay 8ms to INP 3 delay 8ms.

AAISP are going to follow up next week, or I will, whoever's first. I'm hoping by midday Monday I can say to them that fastpath is back and the excessive errors I was having are now gone.

I've left them an excellent review for their efforts and service ( https://www.ispreview.co.uk/review/reviews/6797.html ). The opposite for Zen too.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on November 06, 2017, 11:04:39 AM
To provide an update, DLM hasn't completely removed interleaving yet. I'm hoping it will in a few days. I'm well within the green threshold for ES+SES and re-syncs, I've not re-synced at all since the last DLM intervention, ES is 9 on the downstream for the last few days and 1 on the upstream, SES is 0 for both. Average downstream FEC errors per hour is under 10000 (less than 166 per minute) at the moment.

https://pastebin.com/raw/YCUVkcsV for some more recent stats from my DrayTek Vigor 2860Vac.

If nothing happens in a few more days I might nudge the SNRM target offset up a little and wait a few more days.

EDIT: Here's some more information about the connection.

https://pastebin.com/raw/5xethk9f

SNRM delta 9 means +0.9 dB on top of the current 6 dB target SNRM, so 6.9 dB is the actual SNRM target right now. Sadly the router rounds the SNRM down so 6.9 will show as 6 dB on the statistics still. Also oddly the INP shown as half the true value, I don't know why. For example it says 15 symbols (1.5), but it should be 30 symbols (3.0).
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: skyeci on November 06, 2017, 12:09:29 PM
I waited 5 weeks. No lifting of interleaving and delay despite being green and No es. The only way to shift it was a temporary manual cap on the ds. After 8 days it returned the line to fast path.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on November 06, 2017, 12:19:15 PM
I waited 5 weeks. No lifting of interleaving and delay despite being green and No es. The only way to shift it was a temporary manual cap on the ds. After 8 days it returned the line to fast path.

Ouch, I see, I wonder why. I guess I might have to do the same then. I'll try nudging up the SNRM target offset if nothing happens in the next two days or so, otherwise I'll temporarily switch to the Zyxel and apply banding to the downstream.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: skyeci on November 06, 2017, 12:25:38 PM
I was 70/20 pre int and delay. Then 66/20 with int and delay. I capped it to 54/20. Then rebooted after return to fastpath and back to 70/20...been fine since
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on November 06, 2017, 03:58:21 PM
I've bumped my SNRM target offset up to +3.0 dB (which makes it 9.0 dB) now based on your experience with DLM sticking until manual banding was applied. I'm hoping this will work the same in helping DLM restore fastpath sooner rather than later or never. I'll post another update when I have something. Thanks :).

AAISP also noticed the nice review I left them hehe :), thanking me for it.

The only anomaly remaining is the slightly higher than expected ping, which hopefully once fastpath is back I can see whether it was just interleaving causing a weird anomaly or indeed some kind of odd routing taking place (which I think it is). My ping last I checked was 24ms, but I normally and used to have 8ms on fastpath but when I had fastpath sometimes I connected with a 16ms ping via TTB. Right now I only have 8ms delay on the downstream and fastpath on the upstream so really it should only be 16ms or so and not 24ms.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on November 09, 2017, 08:58:29 AM
Still no movement from DLM yet so I've bumped SNRM delta up to the maximum possible value of 50 (+5.0 dB), making the SNRM target now 11.0 dB. I'll leave it for a few more days and if there's no movement still then I'll switch to the Zyxel and temporarily apply a banded sync rate. I'm currently at 57.5 megabits so might try setting 40-45 megabits if I have to do that.

EDIT: DLM has just restored fastpath, I guess it just needed time. Looks like about two days for the first improvement and I think a further six days for the final improvement. Errors appear to be virtually non-existent on the DrayTek currently. I'll post an update in a few days (probably a final update) and may briefly try the Zyxel again later on, if it produces the problem again I'll switch back to the DrayTek fast. For now I'll let things settle.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: burakkucat on November 09, 2017, 04:29:52 PM
Thank you for the update.

For now I'll let things settle.

That is a sensible choice of action.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on November 10, 2017, 03:20:44 PM
Posting an update sooner than I expected mainly as my ping anomaly is gone now too :) (was 16ms on fastpath, basically 8ms higher than it should be), after switching to the 'new TalkTalk network' (https://aastatus.net/2454).

My DrayTek stats so far (just over 3 hours of uptime again as I had to do some changes here to switch over to the new TalkTalk network as a trial/beta tester). Yesterday however I can say was clean too with a low amount of errors :). I'm confident the problem is resolved, even if not going via a filter was the final solution to eliminating whatever's causing the previous amount of continuous trickling and excessive errors. I'm connected directly into the test socket with a shielded RJ11 to BT LJU cable.

DrayTek stats are here: https://pastebin.com/raw/FwamDa3m

I've changed the SNRM target to 9 dB today and will lower it again soon to the default 6 dB which I imagine should easily give me the full 80 megabits downstream with a bit spare. Given my line I think is around 400-450m I'm definitely pleased with the speeds I'm able to get on the new line compared to the old line, credit to the engineer who spent a while finding me the best possible pair at each section along the route the line takes.

I had some issues initially switching over to the 'new TalkTalk network' but now that I'm connected I'm getting a nice low ping of 7-8ms (or just under 5ms according to the CQM graph) which is wonderful! AAISP are currently looking into a minor issue I'm having with the line rate and MTU or such not being  passed on to them since switching to the new TalkTalk network. I had to enable baby jumbo frames in order to be able to connect correctly in the end even though that still took a while to PPP connect for some reason. So, while I'd like to a speed test at my new sync rate I can't yet as it's still seeing my old sync rate for now haha.

Next week I will briefly try the Zyxel just to see if the statistics are also clean like they are on the DrayTek now. Fingers crossed. I'm confident the problem is resolved. I still find it disappointing that Zen didn't even send out one SFI engineer but on the other hand for a long time I've wanted to go to AAISP and this I guess was the motivation I needed ;). Expect a final update next week (and perhaps some stats on MDWS).

EDIT 11/11/2017 09:05: Pings are super nice on the new TalkTalk network! I've never seen a ping this low, just under 6ms to YouTube!

https://i.imgur.com/1HphQOt.png is a ping graph for the last 3 hours at time of this edit.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: burakkucat on November 10, 2017, 05:12:41 PM
b*cat nods, interestedly.  :) 
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on November 15, 2017, 10:00:45 AM
All is still fine. I'll be trying the Zyxel later today (unfiltered) to see if the errors rise rapidly like before, if they do then I'll switch back to the DrayTek but if they don't then I'll use the Zyxel for a while and upload to MDWS again.

The other day I switched back to the old TalkTalk network for about 30 minutes then moved back to the new network again as requested by AAISP. This fortunately updated the line rate on AAISP's side so I'm now getting the full speed (79.9Mbps, synced at 79995Kbps at the moment). They're currently looking into why my line rate is apparently not updating when I connect via the new TalkTalk network.

I've also developed a script for my Ubiquiti EdgeRouter (I'm not sure if I should upload it here? Maybe someone might find it useful?) which should automatically update the QoS download and upload bandwidth settings based on what AAISP's tx_adjusted_rate and rx_rate is for my connection at the time (thanks to their CHAOS 2 API). I need to test this but it looks like it should work as intended.

Here's the stats from my DrayTek Vigor 2860Vac (unfiltered) for anyone curious: https://pastebin.com/raw/VJfcgmHt

I'm pretty sure FECS is actually just meant to be FEC errors (not FEC seconds). Otherwise I think the stats look fine and assuming my line is on DLM's 'speed' profile then I'm well under the ILQ red threshold for error seconds per day. It will be interesting to see if the Zyxel still gets the excessive errors, if it does then I won't complain about it as I can just use my DrayTek but it will be odd if the Zyxel did still get the excessive errors.

TBB BQM Graph: https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/quality/share/3d855252126bb4c241c275ad78d3880f302ee22d.png

I'm still getting under 6ms to YouTube which is superb.

I'll either edit this reply or post a new reply a bit later today/early tomorrow to mention how the Zyxel performed. I'm hoping I can leave that connected and let MDWS monitor my connection again.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that my next door neighbour also said their FTTC connection has improved since the engineer visits, coincidental? Haha.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Chrysalis on November 15, 2017, 12:21:36 PM
Funny enough to show how much I dont care about been synced at 80mbit vs 74mbit banded, my DS QoS on my pfsense firewall is still set to 71mbit :p
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on November 15, 2017, 03:52:52 PM
Funny enough to show how much I dont care about been synced at 80mbit vs 74mbit banded, my DS QoS on my pfsense firewall is still set to 71mbit :p

Haha, I see. Yeah it's not easy to tell when you've lost 6 megabits downstream off of a sync rate like 80 megabits.

Well anyway, I tried switching to the Zyxel though I was also using this short RJ11 cable (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BroadBand-Problems-0-5M-50CM-High-Quality-Broadband-Modem-Router-Lead-Cable-/112420501344?hash=item1a2cc8b760) going via an RJ11 to BT LJU converter (not the rather long shielded RJ11 to BT cable I was using) and immediately the problem returned so I didn't leave it plugged in for long. I'll post the Hlog and other stuff later this evening if someone wants to see, however the Hlog looked fine.

So, I went back to my DrayTek however still using this short RJ11 cable (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BroadBand-Problems-0-5M-50CM-High-Quality-Broadband-Modem-Router-Lead-Cable-/112420501344?hash=item1a2cc8b760) going via an RJ11 to BT LJU converter and while the attainable rate is higher (as expected) the CRC errors and error seconds on the downstream initially started off at a rather high rate but appear to have calmed down somewhat now. The FEC errors however are quite a bit higher and still coming in at a higher rate.

DrayTek stats on the cable mentioned above from eBay (not the long shielded one I was using): https://pastebin.com/raw/KcBPfcHi

I will return to using the rather long shield RJ11 to BT LJU cable I was using later tonight or sooner if the high rate of error seconds return and see if all types of (CRC/FEC) downstream errors return to normal amounts I originally had while using the DrayTek. I have a feeling they will. I'll edit this reply with a further update on the result of that, certainly is strange though.

EDIT 15/11/2017 16:03: Went back to long cable as another burst of ES again (a few seconds in a minute). I'll update in an hour or two but so far errors look normal again.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: burakkucat on November 15, 2017, 07:03:13 PM
I'm thoroughly puzzled -- not with your reports -- but as to what could be causing the problem that you experience with certain hardware combinations.  ???  :-\
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on November 16, 2017, 10:43:39 AM
I'm thoroughly puzzled -- not with your reports -- but as to what could be causing the problem that you experience with certain hardware combinations.  ???  :-\

Same here.

Last night I tried the long shielded RJ11 to BT LJU cable on the Zyxel and while the rate of errors were less than using the short RJ11 cable they were still excessive.

I've put the long shielded RJ11 to BT LJU cable back on my DrayTek. At some point I might test the effect of toggling trellis on the downstream, I realise sync rate will drop but I'm curious to see if the same errors remain. I have a feeling there's still something odd happening somewhere in the D3 band, as such might explain why shorter cables are showing the problem more. Either way as long as the DrayTek stats with the long cable don't start getting excessive errors then I'll stick to this setup. It's unfortunate as I can't graph the stats anymore (unless I make my own graphing tool for the DrayTek stats output, maybe I'll do that when I have a bit of spare time). However if the problem returns again still using this setup then I'll contact AAISP again.

Somehow I've also gained a bit of attainable rate overnight (approx 2Mbps downstream and almost 1Mbps upstream), but that's good.

Stats as of this morning: https://pastebin.com/raw/KRfNagt2

Stats yesterday: https://pastebin.com/raw/VJfcgmHt

Also my Ubiquiti bash script works for making automatic adjustments to the QoS bandwidth settings, though for some reason it's not triggering after the PPP connection is up (working on that). When manually running the bash script it works fine.

Maybe I'll post this later on in a separate thread, but for now here's what I've got so far:
Code: [Select]
#!/bin/vbash

runcmd=/opt/vyatta/sbin/vyatta-cfg-cmd-wrapper

curl -sH "Content-Type: application/json" -X POST -d '{"control_login":"[changeme]@a","control_password":"[changeme]","service":"[changeme]"}' https://chaos2.aa.net.uk/broadband/info > /tmp/aaisp.txt
rx_rate=$(cat /tmp/aaisp.txt | jq '.info[0].tx_rate_adjusted')
tx_rate=$(cat /tmp/aaisp.txt | jq '.info[0].rx_rate')

rx_rate=$(echo $rx_rate | sed 's/"//g')
tx_rate=$(echo $tx_rate | sed 's/"//g')

if [ "$rx_rate" -gt "1" ]; then
    # echo "${rx_rate}bit"
    $runcmd begin
    $runcmd delete traffic-control smart-queue Internet download rate
    $runcmd set traffic-control smart-queue Internet download rate $(echo $rx_rate)bit
    $runcmd delete traffic-control smart-queue Internet upload rate
    $runcmd set traffic-control smart-queue Internet upload rate $(echo $tx_rate)bit
    $runcmd commit
    $runcmd save
    $runcmd end
fi
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: smf22 on November 16, 2017, 06:03:47 PM
It's unfortunate as I can't graph the stats anymore (unless I make my own graphing tool for the DrayTek stats output, maybe I'll do that when I have a bit of spare time).

I started to develop some munin (http://munin-monitoring.org/) plugins when I had a Draytek Vigor130 if you're interested. There's a static version of the graphs that the plugins create posted here (https://dev.sithon.net/munin/vigor130-day.html) if you want to take a look.

They work well enough, but could probably use a bit of a polish. I never finished them as I took the Draytek out as it was too unreliable on my line.

Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on November 16, 2017, 07:11:31 PM
I started to develop some munin (http://munin-monitoring.org/) plugins when I had a Draytek Vigor130 if you're interested. There's a static version of the graphs that the plugins create posted here (https://dev.sithon.net/munin/vigor130-day.html) if you want to take a look.

They work well enough, but could probably use a bit of a polish. I never finished them as I took the Draytek out as it was too unreliable on my line.

Sure! This would be extremely useful. I've not used munin before so am in the process of trying to set it up on a docker container. If you can share the plugins I'd be greatly appreciative :).
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: smf22 on November 16, 2017, 08:04:49 PM
I've uploaded to the vigor130_munin (http://dev.sithon.net/vigor130_munin/) directory on my server. I've copied across three different file types:

- vigor130.expect: expect script to telnet to the modem and collect the output of the appropriate commands. You don't need to use expect to perform this, but I've included so it's clear which commands that need to be run on the modem.
- vigor130_munin_out.txt: sample of the captured output
- v130_*: plugins

Depending upon the directory structure of your host you may need or want to change the 'statsfile' entry in each of the plugins. As mentioned, this was for a Vigor130 but will hopefully work on the Draytek you have.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on November 17, 2017, 12:12:08 AM
I've uploaded to the vigor130_munin (http://dev.sithon.net/vigor130_munin/) directory on my server. I've copied across three different file types:

- vigor130.expect: expect script to telnet to the modem and collect the output of the appropriate commands. You don't need to use expect to perform this, but I've included so it's clear which commands that need to be run on the modem.
- vigor130_munin_out.txt: sample of the captured output
- v130_*: plugins

Depending upon the directory structure of your host you may need or want to change the 'statsfile' entry in each of the plugins. As mentioned, this was for a Vigor130 but will hopefully work on the Draytek you have.

Thanks, I'll attempt to set this up tomorrow. I'm pretty sure it'll work with the Vigor 2860.
Title: Re: My line might have issues?
Post by: Ixel on December 08, 2017, 11:25:41 AM
Apologies for bringing up an old thread (perhaps) but I've had an unexpected outcome this morning.

I had a call from Zen technical support early this morning, the faults and workflows manager asked them to contact me, they wanted to look into the broadband issue I was having. Obviously this was pointless as so much time had now passed and my AAISP line is working so I respectfully declined. They left the option open. I asked whether I could cancel the broadband side early with a discounted early termination charge or whether I'd have to pay full price. They spoke to retentions and was told I'd have to pay full price so I said may as well keep it as emergency backup until the end of contract.

A few hours later (a moment ago) I had another call from the same guy now confirming that he's been authorised by the manager to cancel the broadband side early with no termination charges! I had the option of the line rental too if I wanted to cancel that but I said keep the line rental as I use it for phone calls still. They're going to pass on my request to cancel the broadband side now, they'll credit my account which will then be taken by the cancellation charge. All in all a satisfactory and rather unexpected outcome! I thought originally it would be pointless to contact their quality assurance department (as I was asked to when I left them a negative review on Trustpilot). I've since updated my review's rating primarily to compliment them on the improved customer service that I've now received. Woo!

As for the Vigor scripts, I've not had much success in being able to setup the Munin stuff for some reason. I'm waiting for a small server 2U unit to arrive which I'll install Linux on, some other stuff and Munin too. Hopefully it's just because I was using Docker that I had issues.