Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Telephony Wiring + Equipment => Topic started by: banger on August 12, 2017, 06:53:56 PM
-
Just did a quick test between an old Billion 7800 RJ11 flat lead and a Tandy twister pair sheilded RJ11 cable.
The results
Max sync
72/17 Tandy
78/17 Billion
I have tried this before and got similar results.
My conclusion is the Billion cable is better and when I reconnected the Billion cable I gained 200k.
Make of that what you will.
-
Not again the problem with shielded cable it's not grounded the shielding in that cable acts like an Ariel picking up unwanted stuff from who knows where, the flat or twisted pair will do a good job as long as the cable is no longer than 2 meters
-
Ah, that is why. I don't think the flat cable is twisted both cables are 2m.
-
That's why I don't use shielded cable (Tandy's), unless grounded their impact (whether positive or negative) will be random.
I don't use the flat cable however, I use a 2 meter Cat 6 RJ45 to RJ11 UTP (unshielded twisted pair) cable and it works fine, it'll offer better resistance to noise for that 2 meter run compared to the cheap/bundled flat cable. You can find this type of cable on eBay already made. Besides, if I do manage to get g.fast at around 500 meters from the cabinet then maybe it'll also come in handy for that!
-
Thanks for the tip Ixel. I shall have a look on eBay now.
-
i use mrtelephones cat5e rj45 to rj11 solid core twisted pair. it will be the exact same as the cat6 version Ixel is describing but cat5e is much more flexible.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1M-CAT5E-DSL-LEAD-CABLE-for-FIBRE-TELEPHONE-LINES-like-BT-INFINITY-FTTC-VDSL-/351230412738
That's the 1m version. Mine is only 50cm though.
-
Thanks John.
I have ordered this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3mtr-CAT6-ADSL-VDSL-Grey-Broadband-Cable-RJ11-to-RJ11-BT-Sky-TalkTalk-Internet/322639402839?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
I need a bit more than a metre and have a faceplate so RJ11 will suit fine. I wonder if I can achieve 80m sync ?
-
best is short twisted "unshielded" cables.
-
You know the faceplates are actually rj45, not rj11.
rj45 plugs fit so much neater in the mk ssfp's
-
One thing I want to mention is that there's another difference (other than flexibility of the cable) with Cat5e versus Cat6 cables. Cat5e is rated up to 100 MHz, while Cat6 is rated up to 250 MHz. This might make a difference if someone is close to their g.fast cabinet to receive frequencies over 100 MHz. However from what I understand 'profile 1', which is just a little over 100 MHz, will be used initially. Profile 2, just a bit beyond 200 MHz, could and will most likely be used at a future date (like VDSL2 on FTTC was initially 8c and then later on was changed to 17a).
-
You know the faceplates are actually rj45, not rj11.
rj45 plugs fit so much neater in the mk ssfp's
I didn't know that yet the cable I am using fits perfectly. I thought RJ45 was for networking?
-
I didn't know that yet the cable I am using fits perfectly. I thought RJ45 was for networking?
RJ45 is usually meant for local area networks, yes, however the SSFP will accept RJ45 and RJ11 (though I prefer using RJ45 for a nice fit).
-
So it does just tried an RJ45 in a faceplate and it fits. Although having trouble finding 2m UTP RJ11 to RJ45 all seems flat cable for ADSL.
How about this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/112452145782
-
Is it 2M or 5M ? :shrug2:
-
Have asked the question, hoping it is 2m.
-
cat6
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/261668855936
cat5e
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/261668831492
run-it-direct cable
https://www.run-it-direct.co.uk/adsl-vdsl-patch-leads/adslvdslcat5patchlead2m/
that eBay seller is away unfortunately. MrTeleohone aka My Mate Vince from YouTube. I only use his patch cables.
-
Thanks John. You are always helping me out. :D
-
I think he's just duplicated the advert and only changed the title, not the 5M in the description so chances are it's 2M.
-
That's what I was thinking. No reply as yet might hear tomorrow.
-
I too found the Tandy cable synced slower than a bog standard ADSL cable. I have a hardwired VDSL extension through Cat5e and to that I have plugged in a Billion 8800NL cable and no issues.
-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cat-6-BT-Infinity-2M-Router-modem-cable-VDSL-RJ11-RJ45-High-speed-Broadband/322623089089
That's the one I have. Beware that 'mr.telephone' is away (the above listing however isn't from mr.telephone).
-
Thanks Ixel that's not a bad price. Duly ordered have a couple on the way now.
-
So got a Cat 6 cable today and suitable quick testing has been done.
Cat6 RJ45-RJ11 76/17
Old Billion Flat cable 78½/17
Hmm.
-
So got a Cat 6 cable today and suitable quick testing has been done.
Cat6 RJ45-RJ11 76/17
Old Billion Flat cable 78½/17
Hmm.
I found a similar thing, the cable included with the Smart Hub was the best syncing cable.
I have my router connected to a hardwired Cat5e extension with a Billion cable plugged into it now and the speed is the same as directly plugged in, as far as I recall.
-
Are the extra, unconnected, wires in the Cat 6 acting as an aerial and picking up interference?
-
Are the extra, unconnected, wires in the Cat 6 acting as an aerial and picking up interference?
Could be, I have a BT cable to come to test with twisted pair but after my experiments so far I am not expecting great things.
-
So got a Cat 6 cable today and suitable quick testing has been done.
Cat6 RJ45-RJ11 76/17
Old Billion Flat cable 78½/17
Hmm.
I'd also suggest comparing the rate of CRC errors and error seconds. Better quality cables don't always give better speeds but they often can give fewer errors.
-
Currently I have 0 DS ES and about 23 US ES on the flat cable. No difference in US sync with both cables so maybe I can reduce US ES?
-
So got a Cat 6 cable today and suitable quick testing has been done.
Cat6 RJ45-RJ11 76/17
Old Billion Flat cable 78½/17
Hmm.
the cables are more about reliability than speed in my opinion
-
So I have ordered a RJ11 to RJ45 flat cable to see if that is as good as the billion.
-
More experiments with Billion 8800 R2 modem lead has given me another half a meg. Could be just the time of day but this cable is slightly shorter and round.
Current sync with 8800 cable 79112.
-
Even more experimenting. Tried the ZyXel VMG1312-B10A modem cable and sync is 77. Back to the Billion 8800 R2 cable and back to 79 with 80 attainable. It seems not all modem cables are equal.
-
http://www.download-time.com/
@Banger
I know that this is very interesting, but in a practical sense, how much difference does it make to download times?
Choose any size file o opening the link and compare both sync speeds; I'm curious about the results.
-
Banger, can you take a photo of your Billion cable?
-
So got a nice thick Cat 6 RJ11 to RJ45 through the post today. Top sync - 77, can't beat the Billion 8800 R2 cable still at 79109.
@renloop I am just looking at sync speed doubt it will make much difference on download speed at this speed.
@Gigabit see attached got as close as I could. It's like a silver colour but round.
-
So got a nice thick Cat 6 RJ11 to RJ45 through the post today. Top sync - 77, can't beat the Billion 8800 R2 cable still at 79109.
@renloop I am just looking at sync speed doubt it will make much difference on download speed at this speed.
@Gigabit see attached got as close as I could. It's like a silver colour but round.
Nice, well yeah as a few of us have pointed out, it's more about fewer errors than more speed. Hopefully you're seeing a slight reduction in the number of CRC errors, error seconds or such over a certain uptime.
-
Zero DS ES and about 30 US ES.
-
@renloop
2GB file @ 77 3.43
2GB file @ 79 3.37
But this is purely an academic exercise. :)
-
Thank you very much for the photo. It looks like the faceplate may be about to fall of the wall :-\
-
Not the best fit I admit. :lol:
-
Nice, well yeah as a few of us have pointed out, it's more about fewer errors than more speed. Hopefully you're seeing a slight reduction in the number of CRC errors, error seconds or such over a certain uptime.
Sorry, if I have spoken out of turn, but other than yourselves, and I the ignorant observer, I don't think the speed differences would make a punter even blink an eye, be he vdsl or adsl. Unless , of course his connection is painfully slow.
-
This cable (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-5M-50CM-High-Quality-Broadband-Modem-Router-Lead-Cable-For-Problem-Connections/112420501344?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649) looks curious.
-
This cable (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-5M-50CM-High-Quality-Broadband-Modem-Router-Lead-Cable-For-Problem-Connections/112420501344?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649) looks curious.
That is the seller that sent me a 2m lead with RJ11's and BT cable. Result sync of 65m so well down on the Billion R2.
-
This cable (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-5M-50CM-High-Quality-Broadband-Modem-Router-Lead-Cable-For-Problem-Connections/112420501344?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649) looks curious.
Nice find, looks certainly interesting. I've ordered one just now, will post about it soon.
@banger: Are you saying you've already had this cable and it yielded a drop in sync?
-
From that seller yes 2m version, sync 65.
-
From that seller yes 2m version, sync 65.
Ouch, I see. I've ordered the 50cm one. I'll post soon with comparison of sync rate and errors.
-
Ouch, I see. I've ordered the 50cm one. I'll post soon with comparison of sync rate and errors.
Be interesting to see your results with the shorter cable.
-
This one (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2M-Cat5e-Modem-Cable-ADSL2-VDSL-RJ11-Twisted-Pair-Lead-High-Speed-Broadband/162502221586?_trkparms=aid%3D888007%26algo%3DDISC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140328180637%26meid%3Dc6072a94754d42fba609032465397429%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D112420501344&_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982) is interesting too. Free delivery!
-
This one (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2M-Cat5e-Modem-Cable-ADSL2-VDSL-RJ11-Twisted-Pair-Lead-High-Speed-Broadband/162502221586?_trkparms=aid%3D888007%26algo%3DDISC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140328180637%26meid%3Dc6072a94754d42fba609032465397429%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D112420501344&_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982) is interesting too. Free delivery!
Yeah, that is the one I use.
-
This one (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2M-Cat5e-Modem-Cable-ADSL2-VDSL-RJ11-Twisted-Pair-Lead-High-Speed-Broadband/162502221586?_trkparms=aid%3D888007%26algo%3DDISC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140328180637%26meid%3Dc6072a94754d42fba609032465397429%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D112420501344&_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982) is interesting too. Free delivery!
Bargain!
-
Free delivery!
With that available, I'm going to order three. :D
-
I've also ordered the cable I listed and I will be interested to see how it impacts the error rate on my line.
-
Well for me the Tandy 0.5m cable seems to work the best. It maxes out my 55Mb profile, whereas the Billion 8800NL (V1) cable, white flat ADSL cable and BT Smart Hub cable, do not.
-
Well for me the Tandy 0.5m cable seems to work the best. It maxes out my 55Mb profile, whereas the Billion 8800NL (V1) cable, white flat ADSL cable and BT Smart Hub cable, do not.
What are errors like in comparison?
-
Very interesting my 2m Tandy cable sync was about 72 and Billion R2 79. Looks like this could be highly line dependent.
-
Have you tried a 0.5m Tandy cable though? You're not really comparing like with like as the flat DSL cables are not 2m?
-
Have you tried a 0.5m Tandy cable though? You're not really comparing like with like as the flat DSL cables are not 2m?
Cant say I have but I think the Billion is not much shorter, certainly the 7800 flat cable is long enough to keep the router in the same place. The 8800 cable is a bit shorter as I had to move the router closer to the socket. Say 1-1½m.
-
I don't know then.
-
Got the Cat5E RJ11 to RJ11 cable today. 0.7m and same sync as the 0.5m Tandy cable (54997, 10000). Obtainable a bit down but likely due to the time of day.
Will monitor the line over the next 24 hours. Hopefully will have the "cable for troublesome connections" tomorrow too.
-
Think I have come to the end of my experiment. Final cable to be tested was a £1.19 delivered flat cable with RJ11 and RJ45 plugs about 2m in length. Sync was 77m with a few US errors.
So my deliberations have led me to believe that for my particular setup the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A and Billion 8800NL R2 modem cable are the best suited wrt to max sync.
I am also trying to get hold of a ZyXEL 3925 to test in bridge mode to see if any improvement over the 1312.
-
I am also trying to get hold of a ZyXEL 3925 to test in bridge mode to see if any improvement over the 1312.
Here's one (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Zyxel-VMG-3925-B10B-Router-WiFi-Wireless-5G-5ghz/253102283151) that I noticed earlier today.
I have been wondering, is maximum synchronisation speed really the best metric to rate the various cables? Ixel has mentioned ES . . .
-
Thanks, Mr B*kat I have already bid on the one you linked to. There is another for £8.98 starting bid. We will see what happens.
As for the cable experiment. I have zero DS errors and about 20 US errors a day and this has remained fairly constant throughout the experiment which I think is down to the modem keeping errors down.
The only noticeable difference has been sync speed. I can produce 16 DS errors by pulling out the DSL cable and re-connecting. But I have found that disabling the modem power on DSL then disconnecting the cable and reconnecting a new cable produces zero DS errors. Why this is I am not sure but I am all for producing zero errors during my experiments.
-
Ah, I see. :)
xdslctl connection --down
Swap cables.
xdslctl connection --up
Would be my recipe.
-
Yes that is what I do except I use the ZyXEL power management gui to disable DSL power but effectively the same thing.
-
Received the "troublesome connections" 0.5 cable today. Syncing at 54997 down and 10000 up so not cut the sync. Obtainable is around the same.
Will monitor for the next 24 hours.
-
I've just received and switched to this cable (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-5M-50CM-High-Quality-Broadband-Modem-Router-Lead-Cable-For-Problem-Connections/112420501344).
I've lost around 2 Mbps attainable rate on the downstream (down from 59392 to 56980), slightly better upstream attainable rate, no FEC errors in the first five minutes of uptime so far (which is unusual). I'd usually have a few hundred at the very least but it's 0. Power level has also dropped slightly from 6.0/6.2 to 5.6/5.8. Signal attenuation on D1 has risen from 23.3 to 24.3. Signal attenuation on D3 has risen from 50.3 to 51.3. All other signal and line attenuation values are the same as the Cat6 cable I was using.
This is from the ASUS DSL-AC68U with my own tweaked settings. I'll run for 15 hours or so and post results tomorrow morning.
-
I've had the same cable over 24 hours now and I think my SNRM is less spiky than it was, it seems more consistent.
-
I've had the same cable over 24 hours now and I think my SNRM is less spiky than it was, it seems more consistent.
Are the error rates any different?
I've been running for 40 minutes now and I've not had a single error second, I normally get 1 every 30 minutes, typically 2 every hour (with my current ASUS settings). FEC errors are way lower too at the moment.
>wan vdsl2 show mgcnt
near-end path0 fec: 590
near-end path0 crc: 0
near-end fec sec: 11
near-end err sec: 0
near-end ses sec: 0
near-end los sec: 0
near-end ua sec: 0
far-end path0 fec: 4
far-end path0 crc: 0
far-end fec sec: 2
far-end err sec: 0
far-end ses sec: 0
far-end los sec: 0
far-end ua sec: 0
By now I'd normally have much more than that.
To compare last connection which had 18 hours or so of uptime.
near-end path0 fec: 119632
near-end path0 crc: 52
near-end fec sec: 1889
near-end err sec: 37
near-end ses sec: 0
near-end los sec: 0
near-end ua sec: 0
far-end path0 fec: 29
far-end path0 crc: 1
far-end fec sec: 20
far-end err sec: 1
far-end ses sec: 0
far-end los sec: 0
far-end ua sec: 0
-
I've got G.INP on my line (had it on the up and down), so ES are zero as they were before. US G.INP was removed today and I've had 4 US error seconds in the 1 hour 8 minute connection time, 4 upstream CRCs, 14 FECs. On the downstream I have had 6820 FECs.
The counters for G.INP look about the same.
Edit:
Looking at the SNRM, it looks about the same over an extended period of the time. FEC rate seems to have gone down.
-
I've got G.INP on my line (had it on the up and down), so ES are zero as they were before. US G.INP was removed today and I've had 4 US error seconds in the 1 hour 8 minute connection time, 4 upstream CRCs, 14 FECs. On the downstream I have had 6820 FECs.
Ah, I see, yeah G.INP will kind of mask errors. Still sounds good. I'm hopeful my connection in terms of errors/stability will see a massive benefit to using this cable and losing only around 2 Mbps downstream. I could probably get that speed back anyways by reducing the Tx Power a little since I now have a slightly higher upstream attainable rate.
-
Have been using Mr telephone's Cat6 twisted 1M for over 2 years and the Data Extension socket terminates just behind the wall mounted flat screen TV definitely no RF from TV getting into the modem using this cable :fingers:
-
I looked at the link above and it said not taking orders now?
I need a 0.5m one to test, thoughts?
-
Odd, the 0.5m cable link works fine for me (unless you've seen a different link to the one I used?). This (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-5M-50CM-High-Quality-Broadband-Modem-Router-Lead-Cable-For-Problem-Connections/112420501344) is what I used until today. Overall results were that FEC errors seemed much lower but in the end the error seconds and CRC errors were roughly the same as the Cat6 cable which had slightly better downstream attainable rate (+2 Mbps approximately). I've gone back to the Cat6 cable today as my connection is now finally back on 80/20 and more ASUS stability testing to do.
-
Many thanks! Good luck with the testing
-
I have come to the conclusion the black RJ11 isn't any different on my circuit to a 0.7m Cat5e cable and so I have reverted to that.
-
I have VDSL on the end of a (high quality) 2km copper line to the farm here. Typical sync/actual hovers around or just under 10Mbps/1.1Mbps with a Zyxel VMG8924-B10A. With the Openreach supplied HG612 it was around 8Mbps/1Mbps. G.INP is operational.
The router is very close to the master socket (in trunking just below the ceiling) so this weekend I replaced the ~2m long flat cable with a 30cm cable. It seems to have increased the sync rate by 0.5Mbps but that could just be environmental factors so I'll be watching the line stats.
I didn't bother with shielded or twisted-pair cables for such a short run but I am testing if wrapping the cable with tin-foil will stop GCHQ from listening in, err, aliens zapping the line with First Contact signals, err, interference from the mass of other equipment in the data cabinet
which is next to it - we have to eak out every last bit here. literally!
On a side-note I also asked Zen (the ISP) if it's possible to have the target SNR lowered to 3db but they tell me they have no control over the targets. Openreach did announce that 3-6db targets would be set in the DLM (Dynamic Line Management) from March 2017. Not sure if that's been activated for the cabinet here as yet though since I understand activation across the country might not be completed before September.
I'm actively considering paying a household 750m away across the fields to host a VDSL line or even FTTPoD and 5.8GHz point-to-point wireless link because they're less than 20m from a cabinet. Seems like the only way for us to ever get anywhere close to the advertised speeds.
-
What is the attenuation?
-
What is the attenuation?
I assume that was aimed at me?
~ # xdslctl info --stats
xdslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 1
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 1153 Kbps, Downstream rate = 11262 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 1153 Kbps, Downstream rate = 10960 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.6 6.4
Attn(dB): 34.0 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 8.1 10.4
-
My line went down today and didn't sync up. The Cat5e cable I got from eBay (white, the non "troublesome connections" one), doesn't sync on my line anymore. I did notice it struggling when I swapped it over yesterday: I had to plug it in a couple of times.
Back to the 0.5m Tandy cable and all is well again.
-
http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/02/importance-connecting-adsl-fttc-broadband-via-twisted-pair-cable.html
-
I've just replaced the 30cm flat cable with a 30cm twisted-pair.
I checked it with my cable-tester before connecting it and all looked good. Once plugged in however, the link would not establish. The VMG8924 xDSL LED would flash (yellow = VDSL) rapidly then switch off.
After plugging/unplugging several times I checked it on my cable-tester once again and found that the pair on 3 and 4 (blue and blue/white in this case) were shorted together. Some tugging at the cable to pull it tight has temporarily sorted that out but I'll replace the cable later on (shop-bought cable).
The modem is now sync-ing about 100Kbps faster on the incoming (Down) side.
xdslctl info --show
xdslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 8000
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 1153 Kbps, Downstream rate = 11407 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 1153 Kbps, Downstream rate = 11088 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.7 6.4
Attn(dB): 34.0 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 8.2 10.4
So it looks like the combination of going from 200cm to 30cm gained 500Kbps and then going to twisted-pair has added another 100Kbps, so about a 7% improvement.
-
So got a nice thick Cat 6 RJ11 to RJ45 through the post today. Top sync - 77, can't beat the Billion 8800 R2 cable still at 79109.
@renloop I am just looking at sync speed doubt it will make much difference on download speed at this speed.
@Gigabit see attached got as close as I could. It's like a silver colour but round.
Banger - is that silver cable your Billion one with the best results?
I noticed nobody has commented on the ferrite bead. Did that come with it, or did you put it on?
-
Banger - is that silver cable your Billion one with the best results?
I noticed nobody has commented on the ferrite bead. Did that come with it, or did you put it on?
Yes best speed has been achieved with the Billion Silver flat cable I am now at 79993 DS and the ferrite bead is one I got from Ebay for a few quid for a packet. The bead is a TDK 5mm clip on.
-
Yes best speed has been achieved with the Billion Silver flat cable I am now at 79993 DS and the ferrite bead is one I got from Ebay for a few quid for a packet. The bead is a TDK 5mm clip on.
Begs the question...
Have you tested the ferrite bead on one of the other cables?
-
There is a ferrite bead on each end of the cable and yes tested with other cables.
-
This has been said before several times but it bears repeating: ferrites come in numerous different grades with different frequency and electromagnetic characteristics. You might be lucky if you buy one which the supplier advertises for this particular job, but it will always be a gamble unless you have the detailed technical knowledge to make an appropriate choice. And because of other technical considerations, a ferrite bead which helps in one set of circumstances may well offer no improvement (or make things worse) in another situation.