Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: Black Sheep on August 08, 2017, 01:56:13 PM

Title: Any value ... ??
Post by: Black Sheep on August 08, 2017, 01:56:13 PM
Have noticed over the last few weeks that my FTTC 80/20 service, was dropping connection 1/2 times a day ......... something it hasn't done before.

I noticed I was on a 'Sub 6dB' profile with my SNR sat about 3.7dB and I'm also on 'Retransmission'. I am getting 69Mbps with those profiles applied.

Not being fussed with speed, (more-so stability, as I watch IPTV) ..... I thought I'd remove the 'Sub 6dB' profile and perform a 'Circuit re-calc'. Obviously 'retransmission' will also be removed for a few days due to this.

The result ............... ta-daaaaar ........... I'm now sat at 49Mbps on a 6dB profile. Thought the stat-harvesters amongst you may benefit from this tiny snippet of info ?? If not, just ignore the rantings of a bored bloke.  ;) :)


Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: j0hn on August 08, 2017, 03:57:40 PM
Lucky for some! I'm stuck on interleaving on my Huawei cab :(
Throw 1 of those circuit re-calc's in this direction! perks of the job  ;)

That's what I would expect to happen. Sync drop due to the higher 6dB default SNR target, a further drop due to retransmittion being removed, and the overheads from FEC+interleaving being applied.
69Mbps to 49Mbps is quite the drop though.
Can I ask what modem you use?
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Black Sheep on August 08, 2017, 04:07:11 PM
Ha ha ............. alas, I can't perform DLM resets for others. A total no-no, I'm afraid.  :angel:

Yeah, 20Mbps is quite a drop which is why I thought it noteworthy of handing the info over to the forum (you guys), for their information.
I'm using the Hub5.  :) :)
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: burakkucat on August 08, 2017, 04:33:11 PM
I'm using the Hub5.  :) :)

In all seriousness, it might be worth your while testing with something else.  :o

"What do I recommend?", you ask. "Absolutely anything", is my response, "just as long as it is not a 'BT HHn' or 'BT BHn' (where the 'HH' expands to be 'Home Hub', the 'BH' expands to be 'Business Hub' and the 'n' is a decimal digit)."

ZyXEL VMGnnn devices are the current predominant choice by numerous Kitizens.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Black Sheep on August 08, 2017, 04:43:38 PM
In all seriousness, it might be worth your while testing with something else.  :o

"What do I recommend?", you ask. "Absolutely anything", is my response, "just as long as it is not a 'BT HHn' or 'BT BHn' (where the 'HH' expands to be 'Home Hub', the 'BH' expands to be 'Business Hub' and the 'n' is a decimal digit)."

ZyXEL VMGnnn devices are the current predominant choice by numerous Kitizens.

Ha ha, thanks for the advice, Mr Cat, but you know me ... I'm more than happy with my service and once retransmission is re-applied, I'll end up with more bandwidth again.

The whole aim of the post was purely for awareness purposes .... if anybody should pop along on the forum, shouting that they've lost 20Mbps since their BTHHn was reset ... well, my example could be the very reason why ??

I do not want to enter the world of micro-managing my connection, if I could, I'd give 20Mbps of it to anyone who wanted it, I don't need it all ....... I just want stability.  ;) ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Dray on August 08, 2017, 05:25:14 PM
Stability is easily achieved wirh a HG612 modem by capping the sync speed.
Using an HH* leaves you open to BT 'managing' your connection e.g. the 14-day reboot.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: kitz on August 08, 2017, 09:40:08 PM
20Mbps loss sounds about right.

Based on a 60Mbps sync, each 3dB of SNRm is worth approx 11Mbps. (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adsl_technology.htm#bit_allocation)
Addition of FEC overheads could be costing circa 8-9Mbps based on previous average G.INP -> INP3 figures we were seeing a few years ago.

Add the 2 together and voila 20Mbps :(

Quote
I'm using the Hub5.

Do you know which variant?  The HH5B (BCM based) is better than the HH5A.

Quote
I'm more than happy with my service and once retransmission is re-applied,

Could you please let us know when it does.  Some of us are trying to see if there's any sort of pattern to length of time.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Chrysalis on August 08, 2017, 10:21:23 PM
black sheep, temporary tho, DLM will probably take you back to where you were, will you keep fighting it and go in a loop? :)
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: GigabitEthernet on August 09, 2017, 02:56:20 AM
We all just need to become engineers and we'd never have DLM  issues again.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: banger on August 09, 2017, 03:45:33 AM
If only to be able to do your own circuit recalc.  :fingers:
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: jelv on August 09, 2017, 07:50:53 AM
Stability is easily achieved wirh a HG612 modem by capping the sync speed.
When I had a HG612 I was syncing at 80 with the achievable over 100 - that must be equivalent to capping the sync speed. However most days when the central heating clicked on or off I had a drop.

Since I changed to a ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A I haven't had a single drop due to the central heating.

The conclusion I've reached is that if you want stability a ZyXEL is better than anything BT provide.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Dray on August 09, 2017, 08:24:05 AM
 Not exactly. Capping the sync raises the snrm which increases stability
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Ronski on August 09, 2017, 08:30:50 AM
Jelv is right, If you have an attainable of a 100, and are syncing at 80, then the sync is capped at 80 and the snrm will be higher.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Dray on August 09, 2017, 08:35:24 AM
That's the question, what was the snrm?
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Ronski on August 09, 2017, 09:38:43 AM
If you look on MDWS  all user stats you'll see the effect  on plenty of users,  more so with users on a 40 Mbps product, as they are being capped at 40 Mbps.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Black Sheep on August 09, 2017, 10:08:08 AM
It is a HH5A. Yeah, I shall continue to look on a daily basis to see what happens next.  :)

Chrys ............ ha ha ...... if it stops me watching 'Homeland' due to dropping connection, I'll find Rambo personally and throttle him. I'll draw 'first blood'.  ;) :)
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: kitz on August 09, 2017, 10:43:17 AM
We all just need to become engineers and we'd never have DLM  issues again.

A far better option would be to give the ISP ability to set certain parameters - its only the NGA DLM that is so rigid with no configuration options available.
20CN/21CN and other ISP DLMs give flexibility such as Interleave On/Off.  Target SNRM & INP level options are also available to ISPs such as TT.

In BlackSheeps case rather than having a full reset which 'cost' 20Mbps, it would perhaps have been better if he could have limited the target SNRM to not drop below say 5dB.   From BS's comments it would appear the line behaved perfectly fine with G.INP until it got a target SNRM of 3dB.

Both Dray and Jelv are correct. 

Drays suggestion of capping the line would probably work in BlackSheeps case whereby he had no problems until he got the lower Target SNRm
Based on a previous sync of 60Mbps at a Target SNRM of 3dB, but setting a max sync speed of 50Mbps in the modem that would increase the SNRm and ensure that the line didn't fall below 6dB. 

Jelv is correct that 80/40 etc are artificial caps that suffice to increase the SNRm.   However Jelv's issue with the Central Heating being switch on/off sounds like it was possibly SHINE rather than REIN. 
G.INP doesn't work well on all types of noise which is why Openreach still has Interleaving as a backup if G.INP doesnt work out. 
The reason why the Zyxel has probably worked so well for Jelv is that unlike most other modems it has an internal noise filter.

Chrys also makes a valid point, by performing a reset eventually G.INP will be re-applied and the line will resettle back at around 50Mbps.   Historically BS's line has always worked well at 6dB and DLM will be happy.   So happy that it will then start reducing the target SNRm again.   When it gets to 3dB then BS wont be too happy because he sees some line drops.   If he resets DLM at this point then you can get into a fighting the DLM cycle.
If left alone for a while DLM should in theory spot those line drops and the Errors that no doubt will come with it, it should then increase the target SNRm by itself to a more stable level.
All this messing around could so easily be avoided if Openreach gave some control with the params. 

I'm currently having a fight with DLM, you will see just the other day yet again I had to turn my modem off.   This is because 99.9% of the time it works fine at default, but every few days or so there is a massive surge in errors that triggers DLM penalisation of 10Mbps.   Yet by the time DLM spots it and takes action the line is already back to normal and doesnt need DLM action.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: atkinsong on August 09, 2017, 10:43:42 AM
If you have a look at the BT Community forums, it would appear that a firmware update to the HH 5A which was rolled out in early July is causing a lot of stability issues to a lot of people.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: dambuilder on August 09, 2017, 10:45:20 AM
Stability is easily achieved wirh a HG612 modem by capping the sync speed.

How do you cap sync on a HG612?
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Black Sheep on August 09, 2017, 10:46:39 AM
If you have a look at the BT Community forums, it would appear that a firmware update to the HH 5A which was rolled out in early July is causing a lot of stability issues to a lot of people.

Ah really ??? thanks for the info.  :)
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: kitz on August 09, 2017, 10:51:35 AM
It is a HH5A. Yeah, I shall continue to look on a daily basis to see what happens next.  :)

It takes me a long time to type anything these days because of my hand & arm.  Seeing the "a reply has been posted" as I hit send for the above post @ 10:08 has made me realise just how long it does take me to post anything these days.   Previously I would have been able to rattle a post like the above off in a few minutes, yet from the post times it took me at least 45 mins to type a simplish reply.   :(

Anyhow the point of this post is, if you can get your hands on a HH5B I would do.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: kitz on August 09, 2017, 10:56:17 AM
How do you cap sync on a HG612?

See the sticky post at the top of this section - Speed capping and ES rates on a moderately noisy line (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,16427.msg312619.html#msg312619)

This method also works on other modems such as the Zyxels and Billions.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Black Sheep on August 10, 2017, 12:08:52 PM
48hrs in and no change to DLM, (as probably expected) ??
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: tubaman on August 10, 2017, 12:18:28 PM
Black Sheep, Can any of us get a Profile History like that or is it your special powers that allow it?
 ;)
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Chrysalis on August 10, 2017, 12:50:26 PM
To me this new dynamic DS SNRM DLM seems problematic, probably as a result of people constantly begging for every last mbit out of their lines.  It needs to be way more conservative, perhaps only dropping the profile if its less than 10 ES a day and 0 retrains, if even slight instability occurs it should then blacklist the profile in my opinion.

It raised BS's retransmission instead of reverting to a higher SNRM, he noticed a problem and had to intervene.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Dray on August 10, 2017, 01:47:06 PM
Is this saying that BT are trying G.Inp on the HH5A? If so I agree with Kitz you should try a HH5B. Or front-end the HH5A with a HG612 modem.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Black Sheep on August 10, 2017, 04:43:47 PM
Black Sheep, Can any of us get a Profile History like that or is it your special powers that allow it?
 ;)

LOL .......... it's only 'cos I is mates with Lex Luther that I can see this stuff, tubaman ...... sorry bud.  :'( :) :)
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: j0hn on August 10, 2017, 04:58:03 PM
Is this saying that BT are trying G.Inp on the HH5A? If so I agree with Kitz you should try a HH5B. Or front-end the HH5A with a HG612 modem.
It's always worked on the HH5A. It's only the downstream though. It's 1 of the modems that made OpenReach turn G.INP off by default on the upstream.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: kitz on August 10, 2017, 06:43:03 PM
Black Sheep, Can any of us get a Profile History like that or is it your special powers that allow it?
 ;)

I think the ISP may also have access to this info if they want.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: kitz on August 10, 2017, 06:45:50 PM
It needs to be way more conservative, perhaps only dropping the profile if its less than 10 ES a day and 0 retrains, if even slight instability occurs it should then blacklist the profile in my opinion.

Bit harsh.   Many lines can get 10 E/Secs just during the initialisations stage of sync. I'm currently getting on average 10 Err/Secs per hour and dont even notice. If they are spread out over the course of the day I don't think anyone would notice.   Its only when you get a block together of say 10 in 20 secs that you start noticing.

Quote
It raised BS's retransmission instead of reverting to a higher SNRM,

It was just reversing the previous downstream state - Look at no 5.   3 & 4 were changes to the upstream.
Seems logicalish to me...  but it would appear DLM wasnt liking something on the upstream which in theory shouldn't be affected by the downstream SNRm

Downstream

4dB Retransmission High  (6)
3dB Retransmission High  (5)
3dB Retransmission Low   (4)
3dB Retransmission High  (2)


Upstream

Error Protection Off    (6)
Retransmission Low   (3)
Retransmission High   (2)

If you follow the downstream pattern, next step would have been to take it back up to 4dB Retransmission High, where it was at the beginning.
The question is what was going on with the upstream???

Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: kitz on August 10, 2017, 06:50:20 PM
Is this saying that BT are trying G.Inp on the HH5A?

Very interesting.. it looks like could possibly be.   :-\  I wonder if that is part of the new firmware that was rolled out for the  HH5A. :hmm:   
I popped over to the BT forums last night to have a look, and there certainly does seem to be something going on with the HH5A that is causing problems since the update for several users.

Note how it is now applying Retransmission for the upstream on BlackSheeps line.

Upstream

Error Protection Off    (6)
Retransmission Low   (3)
Retransmission High   (2)


I can't recall how it showed previously -  I'd have to go searching.  But iirc if the modem wasn't fully g.inp compatible, then it applied interleaving on the upstream, which is what caused a large decrease in sync speed both up and down.   From BS's comments he didn't seem to have this symptom as his downstream was 69Mbps before he reset DLM, so no loss of downstream speed like what can happen if Re-TX is applied upstream on a modem that can't do it.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Dray on August 10, 2017, 06:56:22 PM
Aren't those in reverse chronological order?
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: kitz on August 10, 2017, 07:07:35 PM
For the upstream:-
 
03/08/2017 - Line was Error Protection off [6]
07/08/2017 - Then went to re-tx low [3]
08/08/2017 - Then to re-tx high  [2]
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: atkinsong on August 10, 2017, 07:09:15 PM
This is the official statement regarding the HH5A firmware update

Over the next few weeks, BT will be delivering an upgrade to the HH5A hub firmware which will improve the performance of the Hub in a number of areas:
 
Wi-Fi  experience
BT TV experience
VPN experience
Using multiple gaming consoles
Jongo Speaker connection
Improved stability during Chromecast audio firmware upgrade
Further stability enhancements
Hub manager GUI

"Further stability enhancements"???
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Chrysalis on August 10, 2017, 07:09:32 PM
harsh? maybe but I think if the line is unstable enough to interrupt some iptv BS was watching then something was too aggressive. :)

bangor I think has had a loop behaviour as well 3db to 4db then back to 3db.  If the line wasnt stable previously at 3db why is it trying it again?
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Dray on August 10, 2017, 07:20:26 PM
Oh, right. Then off (1) which is the current profile, as a result of the recalc presumably.

So that will just keep happening?
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: banger on August 10, 2017, 09:55:08 PM
My line tried 3db for about a day then went back to 4db but my TP-Link was giving lots of DS ES so DLM took action. The DS ES remained on 4db so after a few days went back to 5db.

I have been on 5db for a couple of months now but DLM has decided to try again. This time I am using the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A which is showing zero DS ES on 3db so I am hoping my sync of 78 will stick around for some time.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: kitz on August 11, 2017, 12:07:26 AM
Oh, right. Then off (1) which is the current profile, as a result of the recalc presumably.

I deliberately didn't include [1] because that was a result of a DLM reset, rather than DLM action.

Quote
So that will just keep happening?

From the pre ASSIA info I had, it should reverse the steps in the same way they were applied.   It looks like DLM was doing this on BS's line. 
I don't know what changes have been applied since the ASSIA case, but I suspect those changes may be related to capping which Openreach uses in favour of target SNRM for NGA DLM.
 
On the Huawei cabs & 3db,  they appear in part to have reverted back to the more familiar Target SNRM that is used on the adsl2+ 21CN (& 20CN) system only the steps are 1dB per step rather than 3dB per step.  From scanning through the court case notes it would appear that most of the complaints that ASSIA had involved the NGA DLM.  It was the NGA (FTTC) DLM that BT had to change.

Because I dont have any info on what they changed since ASSIA, I have been trying to observe what happens & when. 

Based on my observations, for INP and G.INP they appear to be using the familiar 20CN/12CN penalty system ie
  First offence takes one full day of ILQ green to clear
  2nd offence takes 10 full days of ILQ green to clear
  3rd offence takes 14 full days of ILQ green to clear
  etc


As regards to capping, I haven't got a clue - that now seems 'stuck' until god knows when  :shrug2:

The other thing I haven't been able to fathom out fully on the Huawei cabs,  is once a line has been reset, how long it takes for G.INP to be reapplied.  NS has also been trying to find a pattern.   This is why I am particularly interested in BS's line because we know when he did the DLM reset, so I would be really interested in knowing when it re-applies G.INP to his line.

Back to your question and the TLDR; answer.

No I don't believe it would.  It was currently doing the only 1 day thing.   


I believe it would have kicked in to the familiar penalty offence system.  Next time it happened it would have taken a longer period of stability before it tried to lower it again after the next offence. 
However, because BS has done a full reset..  the next time it happens (and it probably will) it will be back to the 1st offence and it will go back down to 3dB fairly quickly once it kicks back into the cycle thing.

Actually the penalty system usually works quite well - does do on 20CN/21CN.   
Perhaps BS should have left it a bit longer to sort itself out...  but actually I'm glad he didn't, because it is giving me an opportunity to see what is actually happening for sure.    It was only after I had a full DLM reset on my own line that I could clearly see that they were using the penalty system for INP

I suspect something else is happening with BS's line.   It's the upstream I'm watching. 
I've yet to decide whether he does have something causes issues on the upstream - why else would DLM be changing those params which are supposed to be independent of the downstream Target SNRM params?

atm I'm undecided if perhaps he has an emerging HR fault...
or probably more likely in view of the fact of the other complaints on the BT forums by other HH5A users after the f/w update, that they may have attempted to make the HH5A fully G.INP compatible.   TP-link did it with the TD-W9980 which has the same chip.  ejs has always maintained it should be possible on the ECI modems and apparently the hacked ECI's with custom f/w supposedly does.  So it is a possibility that they may have... but not got something quite right and it is causing some weird instability issues.  From what I saw on the BT forums some of the modems were doing a full power cycle - not just a resync.

     



Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Black Sheep on August 11, 2017, 10:07:21 AM
Interesting reading, guys. You have my attention.  :)

Todays sit-rep is exactly as it was in the 'cut & paste' I posted up yesterday, having just looked this very minute. We're almost at the magic 3-day limit since I performed a re-calc, so maybe things will start to happen soon ??  :)
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Dray on August 11, 2017, 11:03:46 AM
Thanks for that Kitz, very interesting :)

It will be really good if BT manage to get G.Inp working on the HH5A as it's a really good router otherwise. I'm sure BT have a large inventory which could lower the price. I know I do ;)

It may also mean we can all get G.Inp back on the upstream where it belongs.

I also hope it's possible to get that profile listing from the ISP and even an online query system to automatically get one on demand would be brilliant.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: kitz on August 11, 2017, 12:40:39 PM
Interesting reading, guys. You have my attention.  :)

Todays sit-rep is exactly as it was in the 'cut & paste' I posted up yesterday, having just looked this very minute. We're almost at the magic 3-day limit since I performed a re-calc, so maybe things will start to happen soon ??  :)

I think NS says that he has observed 14 days on another line.  I'm sure he will correct me if I'm wrong. :)
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: kitz on August 11, 2017, 01:12:14 PM
It will be really good if BT manage to get G.Inp working on the HH5A as it's a really good router otherwise.

Yes it would.   After seeing that is was possible with the TD-W9980, I see no reason why they couldn't have done so sooner. 

As regards to the HH5A, I personally would prefer a HH5B due to the modem chipset.  Although I don't have a HH5A, I do have a TD-W9980 with the same chipset and there is no doubt that the BCMs out perform the VRX-268 on my line by anything up to 8Mbps depending upon which BCM.

I've seen a few people falsely accuse the HH5A of not being able to do downstream G.INP purely because they get say 6Mbps more when using a HG612.

Quote
I also hope it's possible to get that profile listing from the ISP and even an online query system to automatically get one on demand would be brilliant.

Most SP's seem to stick with what info is pulled back from the likes of a GEA test.

However, Openreach make quite a lot of info available to the ISP - if they want to make use of it.   The data is made available in xml but its down to the ISP to  code some sort of GUI that makes it into a human readable format.

I've seen a beta version one ISP was making and there is quite a lot of information that can be collated including info about the RAS such as its lat/long location, IP, DNS, make of RAS and even how much bandwidth is on the backhaul not just the SVLAN status.  Logs for such things as BRAS profiles and amount of IP data bandwidth for various durations can also be obtained.   There's even access to to OR infrastructure mapping showing where the line runs right up to the DP and the DP no.   

So the info is available.. its just if the ISP wants to get someone to sit and code some sort of interface that will run on their own systems.   I don't know of any ISP that has made full use of all the info.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Chrysalis on August 11, 2017, 04:08:28 PM
makes you wonder how good things could be if openreach could sell direct to consumers.

Imagine a portal where could see profile history, current profile and a reasons tab why the profile is active.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: kitz on August 11, 2017, 10:16:05 PM
Don't think it will ever be available to the public as a lot of it could be considered personal data.  For eg with the mapping showing the route of the cable, you could look up home address from their phone no.

I suppose an ISP could make a portal though linked to the EU's account.  But how many EU's would actually be interested in this data never-mind understand what it means. Whilst the likes of you and me would find this info interesting, the vast majority probably just dont care.
Then there is the time involved for someone to code the GUI and make it available, I can only think of one ISP that is geeky enough to make use of it.

>> a reasons tab why the profile is active.

afaik that info is not available in such depth.  I suppose you could try getting an indication from the ILQ status (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM.htm#DLM_profile_changes) which may or may not be available.  So for example if it showed scarlet then you know the line changes were a result of errors on the upstream.

Something like this from the Plusnet DLM page (https://community.plus.net/t5/Library/FTTC-DLM-What-it-is-How-it-works/ba-p/1322799) would be good

(http://community.plus.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Caution-Counter.jpg)

Unfortunately its not clear if that info is actually available to the ISP, or if that is taken from an example given by BTw.  I cant recall seeing anything about ILQ on the beta thingy.   :/
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Chrysalis on August 12, 2017, 01:09:59 AM
An ISP will never do it, they love been the middle man and witholding information so its all too easy to blame third party suppliers that the end user has no access to.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Black Sheep on August 12, 2017, 03:40:22 PM
Latest ...
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: j0hn on August 12, 2017, 04:56:54 PM
3 days for retransmission to return after a DLM reset, sounds roughly right.

My lines been stuck on interleaving for months. We had a power outage earlier affecting 100,000+ properties. About 40 mins after my line came back up DLM resynced the line and reverted it to fastpath.
No idea if this is down to me capping the line for the previous 48 hours (extremely low ES, likely low enough to shake stuck interleaving), or if it's linked to the power outage, or it's after effects. After the outage the line resynced before crosstalkers, SNRM dropped to roughly 2dB, my sync was higher than it's been since new crosstalkers came online last week.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Black Sheep on August 12, 2017, 05:47:10 PM
Cheers John ..... forgot to add the other data showing speed ...... Kitz was (of course) correct in her assumptions.  ;) :)
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Chrysalis on August 12, 2017, 06:01:56 PM
thanks for update black sheep :)
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Black Sheep on August 12, 2017, 06:06:16 PM
No worries, bud.  :)
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Ixel on August 12, 2017, 07:37:05 PM
An ISP will never do it, they love been the middle man and witholding information so its all too easy to blame third party suppliers that the end user has no access to.

The only ISP that might do this could be Andrews & Arnold, should Openreach ever (doubtful) open up a bit more to ISP's in regards to DLM on FTTC.

-

@kitz: In regards to ASSIA and Openreach changes, for certain they changed the banding. For example, the minimum sync rate used to be half of the maximum sync rate (e.g. minimum 40Mbps, maximum 80Mbps) unless currently on an open wide profile. Now all banding has a minimum sync rate of 128Kbps. Beyond that I don't know if any other changes were made, certainly not that I could notice from the console on the DSL-AC68U.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Chrysalis on August 13, 2017, 12:43:54 AM
Ixel you be surprised how open they already are, there is a lot of information available to isp's that doesnt go further then them.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: kitz on August 13, 2017, 07:19:45 PM
Thanks vm BS for the update :)
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: kitz on August 13, 2017, 07:53:41 PM
The only ISP that might do this could be Andrews & Arnold, should Openreach ever (doubtful) open up a bit more to ISP's in regards to DLM on FTTC.

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@kitz: In regards to ASSIA and Openreach changes, for certain they changed the banding. For example, the minimum sync rate used to be half of the maximum sync rate (e.g. minimum 40Mbps, maximum 80Mbps) unless currently on an open wide profile. Now all banding has a minimum sync rate of 128Kbps. Beyond that I don't know if any other changes were made, certainly not that I could notice from the console on the DSL-AC68U.

The stuff I saw wasn't from AAISP, but they are perhaps the only ones that I could think of who would perhaps even think to integrate this into the customer portal. 

As Chrys pointed out, they do give ISP's a lot of info that isn't relayed back to the EU's.   ISP's were given a lot of info about DLM by BTw.  However its not in one 'book', but takes a lot of piecing together from various documents.   It took me a loooooong time to even attempt to put things into words that the layman would understand.   Before I did that I had to try and put something together which explained the hardware side first so that people would know what the various bits did.   No-one really wants to spend time and effort trying to collect it all together to explain to EU's when most of them either dont care, or wouldnt have a clue what you are talking about.   

There is only Chris Pettit from Plusnet that did so - I believe quite a lot of it in his own time. Then some of it changed soon after.  There was another rep from Zen who was also piecing things together but for some reason he abandoned it before it was complete. The beta tool for line info again was coded by an ISP rep in his own time.

ISP's get told each time DLM params such as MTBE & MTBR get changed, but the SP's don't seem to do much with this info and I doubt the info is ever retained for long because its passed to them in snippets amongst other info.

Re capping - we know for certain that BT had to change something on the NGA DLM after the ASSIA court case.  The 20CN/21CN appeared to be deemed OK and afaik no changes were ever made to those.   The only big difference with the NGA DLM is that they used speed caps rather than target SNRM.  Much of the other stuff is the same and of course G.INP is new since then, but even with G.INP the ISPs were told info that never really got much further into the public.   Plusnet was telling snippets and Ian Lawrence (OR chief engineer) either confirmed or told some new facts to us.  I admit he didn't answer all questions, but I am mindful that this was relatively soon after ASSIA..  there is no doubt that since then they have been a bit more reserved about what they say about DLM.  The other thing where we have some missing info on is how long it takes to reverse any DLM changes.

However ISPs do know MTBE/MBTR figures - supposedly to help them chose which profile they want to put their customers on.   They do get info like what BS has just shown us, only they only retain the last set.  They could easily retain more if they wanted.   They even have access to such things as how many errors the line has.   It's down to the the GUI interface thing again and up to the ISP to build something if they want to make use of the raw data.   Obviously someone at Openreach has coded something for their engineers, but even so the ISPs do still get quite a lot of data by the BTw & Openreach test suites that they can perform.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Black Sheep on August 14, 2017, 04:56:09 PM
Update: No change to my DLM profile since the last one.
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: Black Sheep on August 17, 2017, 11:47:29 AM
Still no change regarding DLM profiling .......... rather than keep posting that, I'll just re-visit here, if and when something further does occur ??
Title: Re: Any value ... ??
Post by: kitz on August 17, 2017, 01:51:33 PM
Thanks BS.   Perhaps should have said in response to your post of the 14th, that I expect it will stay at this now for a little while.
0.128-80M Downstream, Retransmission Low - 0.128-20M, Error Protection Off.

Yes please for when it starts making any changes to the Target SNRM, then please do let us know.  :)