Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: Adam86 on February 22, 2017, 11:08:17 PM
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Good evening,
Today my parent in laws have switched from Sky Broadband and taken their phone services over to Talktalk and taken out the 40/2 package.
The number transfered over early this morning and the cabinet work was completed at approx 3pm and we plugged in the supplied HG633 router, since doing that, as soon as you try using the connection it just drops constantly and reconnects. Online chat told me that the line is apparently setting down but I have never seen it to this extreme before! Each time it reconnects, the sync speed has always remained the same. I would have expected this to lower if this was a stability issue. I'm attaching the logs and the modem stats that I can obtain from the HG633 they provide. Hopefully at the weekend I will go and swap this out for an ECI modem I have going spare as well as a proper router.
I just wondered if anyone can spot anything out of the ordinary in the stats? I'd really appreciate it.
Modem Stats:
DSL synchronization status: Up
Connection status: Showtime
Upstream line rate (kbit/s): 2000
Downstream line rate (kbit/s): 39997
Maximum upstream rate (kbit/s): 10403
Maximum downstream rate (kbit/s): 47380
Upstream noise safety coefficient (dB): 15.2
Downstream noise safety coefficient (dB): 8.2
Upstream interleave depth: 1
Downstream interleave depth: 1
Line standard: VDSL2
Upstream line attenuation (dB): 6
Downstream line attenuation (dB): 16.8
Upstream output power (dBm): 4.9
Downstream output power (dBm): 9.6
Channel type: Fast
DSL up-time: 0 days 0 hours 1 minute 0 seconds
Syslog:
Manufacturer:Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd.
Product Style:HG633
Serial Number:C4R8W16919004948
Hardware Version:H.1.01
Software Version:v1.15t
2017-02-22 22:58:45 User Level Notice User admin login from 192.168.3.2 successfully.
2017-02-22 22:58:43 User Level Notice CWMP:Cwmp post inform success.
2017-02-22 22:58:43 User Level Notice CWMP or STUN parameter be changed.
2017-02-22 22:58:42 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: parameter change.
2017-02-22 22:58:42 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: event: 4 VALUE CHANGE.
2017-02-22 22:58:36 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 connected.
2017-02-22 22:58:33 System Notice DSL connection is active.
2017-02-22 22:58:03 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 disconnected.(ERROR_NO_CARRIER)
2017-02-22 22:58:03 System Notice DSL connection is inactive.
2017-02-22 22:57:45 User Level Notice User admin login from 192.168.3.2 successfully.
2017-02-22 22:57:11 User Level Notice CWMP:Cwmp post inform success.
2017-02-22 22:57:11 User Level Notice CWMP or STUN parameter be changed.
2017-02-22 22:57:10 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: parameter change.
2017-02-22 22:57:10 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: event: 4 VALUE CHANGE.
2017-02-22 22:57:04 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 connected.
2017-02-22 22:57:01 System Notice DSL connection is active.
2017-02-22 22:56:35 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 disconnected.(ERROR_NO_CARRIER)
2017-02-22 22:56:35 System Notice DSL connection is inactive.
2017-02-22 22:55:17 User Level Notice CWMP:Cwmp post inform success.
2017-02-22 22:55:16 User Level Notice CWMP or STUN parameter be changed.
2017-02-22 22:55:16 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: parameter change.
2017-02-22 22:55:16 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: event: 4 VALUE CHANGE.
2017-02-22 22:55:10 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 connected.
2017-02-22 22:55:06 System Notice DSL connection is active.
2017-02-22 22:54:36 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 disconnected.(ERROR_NO_CARRIER)
2017-02-22 22:54:36 System Notice DSL connection is inactive.
2017-02-22 22:53:38 User Level Notice CWMP:Cwmp post inform success.
2017-02-22 22:53:38 User Level Notice CWMP or STUN parameter be changed.
2017-02-22 22:53:37 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: parameter change.
2017-02-22 22:53:37 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: event: 4 VALUE CHANGE.
2017-02-22 22:53:31 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 connected.
2017-02-22 22:53:28 System Notice DSL connection is active.
2017-02-22 22:52:57 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 disconnected.(ERROR_NO_CARRIER)
2017-02-22 22:52:57 System Notice DSL connection is inactive.
2017-02-22 22:51:46 User Level Notice CWMP:Cwmp post inform success.
2017-02-22 22:51:46 User Level Notice CWMP or STUN parameter be changed.
2017-02-22 22:51:45 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: parameter change.
2017-02-22 22:51:45 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: event: 4 VALUE CHANGE.
2017-02-22 22:51:39 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 connected.
2017-02-22 22:51:35 System Notice DSL connection is active.
2017-02-22 22:51:05 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 disconnected.(ERROR_NO_CARRIER)
2017-02-22 22:51:05 System Notice DSL connection is inactive.
2017-02-22 22:50:07 User Level Notice CWMP:Cwmp post inform success.
2017-02-22 22:50:07 User Level Notice CWMP or STUN parameter be changed.
2017-02-22 22:50:06 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: parameter change.
2017-02-22 22:50:06 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: event: 4 VALUE CHANGE.
2017-02-22 22:50:00 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 connected.
2017-02-22 22:49:57 System Notice DSL connection is active.
2017-02-22 22:49:28 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 disconnected.(ERROR_NO_CARRIER)
2017-02-22 22:49:28 System Notice DSL connection is inactive.
2017-02-22 22:48:33 User Level Notice CWMP:Cwmp post inform success.
2017-02-22 22:48:33 User Level Notice CWMP or STUN parameter be changed.
2017-02-22 22:48:32 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: parameter change.
2017-02-22 22:48:32 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: event: 4 VALUE CHANGE.
2017-02-22 22:48:26 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 connected.
2017-02-22 22:48:22 System Notice DSL connection is active.
2017-02-22 22:47:52 System Notice DSL connection is inactive.
2017-02-22 22:47:38 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 disconnected.(ERROR_NO_CARRIER)
2017-02-22 22:47:38 System Notice DSL connection is inactive.
2017-02-22 22:47:14 Security Warning DROP TCP SAMBA Request
2017-02-22 22:31:34 User Level Notice CWMP:Cwmp post inform success.
2017-02-22 22:31:34 User Level Notice CWMP or STUN parameter be changed.
2017-02-22 22:31:33 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: parameter change.
2017-02-22 22:31:33 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: event: 4 VALUE CHANGE.
2017-02-22 22:31:27 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 connected.
2017-02-22 22:31:24 System Notice DSL connection is active.
2017-02-22 22:30:53 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 disconnected.(ERROR_NO_CARRIER)
2017-02-22 22:30:53 System Notice DSL connection is inactive.
2017-02-22 22:30:05 User Level Notice CWMP:Cwmp post inform success.
2017-02-22 22:30:05 User Level Notice CWMP or STUN parameter be changed.
2017-02-22 22:30:04 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: parameter change.
2017-02-22 22:30:04 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: event: 4 VALUE CHANGE.
2017-02-22 22:29:58 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 connected.
2017-02-22 22:29:55 System Notice DSL connection is active.
2017-02-22 22:29:26 System Notice DSL connection is inactive.
2017-02-22 22:29:11 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 disconnected.(ERROR_NO_CARRIER)
2017-02-22 22:29:11 System Notice DSL connection is inactive.
2017-02-22 22:28:31 User Level Notice CWMP:Cwmp post inform success.
2017-02-22 22:28:31 User Level Notice CWMP or STUN parameter be changed.
2017-02-22 22:28:30 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: parameter change.
2017-02-22 22:28:30 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: event: 4 VALUE CHANGE.
2017-02-22 22:28:24 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 connected.
2017-02-22 22:28:21 System Notice DSL connection is active.
2017-02-22 22:27:51 System Notice DSL connection is inactive.
2017-02-22 22:27:40 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 disconnected.(ERROR_NO_CARRIER)
2017-02-22 22:27:40 System Notice DSL connection is inactive.
2017-02-22 22:26:25 User Level Notice CWMP:Cwmp post inform success.
2017-02-22 22:26:25 User Level Notice CWMP or STUN parameter be changed.
2017-02-22 22:26:24 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: parameter change.
2017-02-22 22:26:24 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: event: 4 VALUE CHANGE.
2017-02-22 22:26:18 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 connected.
2017-02-22 22:26:15 System Notice DSL connection is active.
2017-02-22 22:25:45 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 disconnected.(ERROR_NO_CARRIER)
2017-02-22 22:25:45 System Notice DSL connection is inactive.
2017-02-22 22:24:29 User Level Notice CWMP:Cwmp post inform success.
2017-02-22 22:24:29 User Level Notice CWMP or STUN parameter be changed.
2017-02-22 22:24:28 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: parameter change.
2017-02-22 22:24:28 User Level Notice CWMP inform message: event: 4 VALUE CHANGE.
2017-02-22 22:24:22 System Notice WAN connection INTERNET_TR069_R_VID_101:IPv4 connected.
2017-02-22 22:24:19 System Notice DSL connection is active.
Thanks
[Moderator edited to reformat the "Modem Stats" code block.]
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The number transfered over early this morning and the cabinet work was completed at approx 3pm
Could you expand on this cabinet work that was completed at 3pm?
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Sorry I just mean the usual part Openreach do up at the cabinet to connect your line into the FTTC side of things? Sorry that's probably not the correct terminology. No Openreach engineer physically came to the house but I understand that they still carry out a process in the Exchange as well as the cabinet? They've never had any FTTC service before always just had ADSL with Sky previously.
Thanks
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when was the activation date as it can take up to midnight on that day to become active
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The "Modem Stats" show nothing untoward. (I've just reformatted the code block to make it easier to read.)
The "Syslog", however, clearly tells us that it is the TalkTalk TR-069 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TR-069) process that is causing the WAN xDSL link to drop and then re-establish. Why? All it states is "ERROR_NO_CARRIER". Not very helpful.
I'll suggest that your in-laws give it 24 hours -- it might "settle" -- and if the "establish xDSL link / drop xDSL link" cycle still persists, then TalkTalk will need to check exactly what their CWMP / TR-069 process is attempting.
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when was the activation date as it can take up to midnight on that day to become active
I think you are probably correct. :)
The CWMP / TR-069 process is attempting to configure the modem/router but the database details do not yet show that the circuit is live. Hence the constant cycle, waiting for some TalkTalk entity (human or automaton) to "press the button".
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Cheers for these useful responses.
Yes the activation date was yesterday, and as you say it did say up to midnight in the original emails. An automated email fired through about 3.30pm yesterday saying everything was complete and that TalkTalk Fibre was ready to use right away - but it does make sense with you saying that database details may not be up to date.
Just checked it right now this morning and its exactly the same, however the router has managed to update its firmware to 1.21 at some point in the night.
Suppose will just see what happens during the day today and see if it starts working as it should.
Cheers :-/
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. . . however the router has managed to update its firmware to 1.21 at some point in the night.
So we now know that the modem/router managed to establish a stable connection with the ACS, to be able to perform the firmware update.
Hopefully all is now good.
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Morning burakkucat,
I'm afraid not, the situation is no different at all. I think the longest I've seen a connection sustained for is approx 15 minutes, other than that it is just constantly dropping and reconnecting.
Interestingly enough the sync speed has remained at 39997/2000 throughout, I was always under the assumption that if the connection was as flaky as it is, that the sync rate would keep dropping.
I spoke to tech support on the phone yesterday, they wouldn't do anything about it and insisted to monitor it for another 24 hours. I did a post on the TalkTalk Community instead to which one of the officials has responded. He said he could see the connection is unstable and asked how the phone service was so I tested that out and it did sound nice and clear to me. However I must admit when I was calling that landline and getting the person to speak at the other end, there was some breakage in their voice, however there didn't appear to be any noise.
Will be calling into the parent in laws at the weekend so I'll be trying the spare ECI modem and a decent router and seeing what happens then. Other than that, it could be an engineer visit I suppose :-/
EDIT:
Well i'll be damned, don't want to speak too soon but the modem has managed to retain a sync for almost 2.5 hours since posting this last reply. Haven't heard anything from TalkTalk yet so not sure if they have identified something wrong but so far things maybe looking more promising.
DSL synchronization status:Up
Connection status:Showtime
Upstream line rate (kbit/s):2000
Downstream line rate (kbit/s):39997
Maximum upstream rate (kbit/s):9395
Maximum downstream rate (kbit/s):50832
Upstream noise safety coefficient (dB):13.8
Downstream noise safety coefficient (dB):7.9
Upstream interleave depth:1
Downstream interleave depth:1
Line standard:VDSL2
Upstream line attenuation (dB):6
Downstream line attenuation (dB):16.9
Upstream output power (dBm):4.8
Downstream output power (dBm):13.1
Channel type:Fast
DSL up-time:0 days 2 hours 23 minutes 13 seconds
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Hmm . . . Very puzzling. :-\
I'll recommend that you follow TalkTalk's suggestion and continue to monitor the service.
For posterity, please update this thread with details of any changes, when your time permits.
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The sync rate will stay steady over 48 hours even with many disconnections because the line is on the DLM open profile stage, any changes of sync may occur on the 3rd day when the DLM then takes control over this line.
I do hope the modem now stays in sync to the MSAN or there could be trouble ahead.
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Thanks for the responses both, TalkTalk responded to me about 3:30PM advising that their networks team have logged the fault over to BT Openreach for more investigation. He said the line test is showing a lot of errors but not as bad as yesterday.
Funnily enough, around 5 minutes around the time the TalkTalk guy posted that update to me, the modem lost it's sync again and we gave it a good 10 minutes and as it didn't come back by itself so power cycled the router and it has came back to life again, although this time is now running interleaved rather than fastpath :-/
Is there something that TalkTalk or even Openreach could have done at that time that could have triggered the disconnect?
Cheers
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Is there something that TalkTalk or even Openreach could have done at that time that could have triggered the disconnect?
Very much doubt it was them as your now into the third 3 day of activation and the DLM has gathered the results during this open profile of two days and has taken action, if you have loads of errored seconds then yeah interleaving will be used as the preferred error correction tool.
But frequent disconnection's are more serious and if left untreated this can cause the DLM to band that line in a few weeks time.
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Just thought I'd give you all an update.
TalkTalk contact me this morning to say Openreach couldnt find any issues. The internet has been pretty stable since I last posted, it resynced first thing Saturday morning approx 35000kbps downastream with an interleave depth of around 3000. This morning we had another resync and the rate has gone back up to 39888kbps with a lower interleave depth.
Suppose we will just keep an eye on it I guess, but absolutely no idea why it wasnt working for 48 hours. Hopefully the line will switch back to fastpath?
Here are the current stats:
Connection status:Showtime
Upstream line rate (kbit/s):2000
Downstream line rate (kbit/s):39888
Maximum upstream rate (kbit/s):6862
Maximum downstream rate (kbit/s):52480
Upstream noise safety coefficient (dB):12
Downstream noise safety coefficient (dB):7.3
Upstream interleave depth:1
Downstream interleave depth:2309
Line standard:VDSL2
Upstream line attenuation (dB):6
Downstream line attenuation (dB):16.8
Upstream output power (dBm):5
Downstream output power (dBm):11
Channel type:Interleaved
DSL up-time:0 days 6 hours 1 minute 36 seconds
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The circuit is now operating essentially at its product limit of 40/2 Mbps DS/US and with only the DS interleaved. All the data you have now posted is looking good. :)
It is my suspicion that the initial "yo-yo" problem was a direct result of the TalkTalk back office failing to promptly "push the button" once the required cabinet jumpering was completed, along with the need for the modem/router's firmware to be updated.
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Yes, more than happy with that sync rate, its a big improvement from their old 3000kbps down 400kbps up that they used to have!
I would definitely agree with you that TalkTalk failed to "push the button" once the physical work was completed.
Just hoping that interleaving on the downstream eventually gets removed and then I'll be happy. Going to leave it for the full 10 days before putting in a decent router with my spare ECI modem combo.
Cheers
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The mythical 10 days doesn't exist
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Maybe you also need to let BT know that as they appear to be unaware of the myth:
The checker as of 5 mins ago says:
For all ADSL and WBC Fibre to the Cabinet (VDSL or G.fast) services, the stable line rate will be determined during the first 10 days of service usage.
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BT already know. They put it in Sin498
2.2.1 Dynamic Line Management
Dynamic Line Management (DLM) is employed in GEA-FTTC. DLM constantly manages lines to maintain a target link quality (speed and stability). It does this for as long as the product exists.
At provision, the line is put on “wide open” VDSL2 line profiles allowing the upstream and downstream line speeds to run at the upper limit of the product option selected.
On the first day of operation, DLM will intervene if severe instability is detected. Otherwise, DLM will wait until the day after provision before deciding if it must intervene, provided that the line has been trained up for at least 15 minutes during the preceding day.
If DLM intervenes it will set a profile with a maximum rate and a minimum rate, where the minimum rate is set at approximately half of the maximum rate. The purpose of the minimum rate is to ensure that the line does not train at a rate which is significantly below the level the line should be able to achieve. If this happened, then the line is likely to remain at a very low rate until a re-train is forced by the user by powering off the modem.
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So they may but the average punter isn't going to know that Sin498 exists let alone find it to (maybe) read it so this is still a major error on their part and leads to people believing the 10 day wait is true.
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Just thought I'd give you guys an update on this.
Got my brothers spare unlocked HG612 connected to the line and a decent router as the TalkTalk HG633 was a load of rubbish as expected.
I've now got the line monitored and added to My DSL Web Stats and the username is MontcalmC for anyone who wants to have a look.
Since the connection has gone in interleaving appears to have permamantly being applied and for some reason just over a week ago the sync dropped from approx 38000 and has been on 34999 since so looks to have become banded. I'm not very good at reading most of these stats but the FEC errors appears to be interesting as every 20 minutes it appears to be in the 40000-50000 range and momentarily drops to around 4500.
Cheers
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but the FEC errors appears to be interesting as every 20 minutes it appears to be in the 40000-50000 range and momentarily drops to around 4500.
I'm not sure I've come across a graph quite like this. Almost metronomic in duration, and patterns to the overlaid "high" and "low" FEC values too...
A quick sample check on the length of those periods:
Yesterday afternoon: "High FEC" for 34 minutes, "Low FEC" for 13, 14, 15 or 18 minutes.
After midnight last night: "High FEC" for 33 minutes, "Low FEC" for 13, 14, 15 or 17 minutes.
Something switched looks to be inducing impulse noise onto the line. Something controlled. Perhaps a water/sewage pump? A heating controller? An air-conditioning controller? A fridge or freezer?
Because the duration is almost identical in the middle of the day compared to overnight, I'm doubting that it is a heating or air-conditioning issue.
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looking at the graph that Mr Cat has kindly supplied above, your ISP shouldn't have much issue having a REIN case raised with Openreach's REIN helpdesk ................. that is of course, assuming your MPF (Pair of wires) are testing to a certain standard that would reject normal levels of 'Noise' ??
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I'm not sure I've come across a graph quite like this. Almost metronomic in duration, and patterns to the overlaid "high" and "low" FEC values too...
A quick sample check on the length of those periods:
Yesterday afternoon: "High FEC" for 34 minutes, "Low FEC" for 13, 14, 15 or 18 minutes.
After midnight last night: "High FEC" for 33 minutes, "Low FEC" for 13, 14, 15 or 17 minutes.
Something switched looks to be inducing impulse noise onto the line. Something controlled. Perhaps a water/sewage pump? A heating controller? An air-conditioning controller? A fridge or freezer?
Because the duration is almost identical in the middle of the day compared to overnight, I'm doubting that it is a heating or air-conditioning issue.
Really weird isnt it :-/
With regards to the noise on the line, if it was something in the house, how close would we be talking of for that noise to affect the line, would it be something right next to the line or can it be affected by a much bigger radius? As to be honest there isn't really anything out of the ordinary in the household really. Her parents recently had a new kitchen fitted so the appliances are all new in there, not that a new appliance couldnt interfere of course.
The line's cabling runs at the other end of the house to the kitchen and any other appliances I can think of from the top of my head. Now I must say that the phone wiring in this house is quite funny as I found they have the master socket in the hall way and that has another cable running from it into another socket in the living room where everything is actually plugged in, now that wire actually runs right next to the RCD and mains electric cable that runs into the house so maybe that could have something to do with this? Theres no power socket nearby but I could probably temporarily plug the modem and router in with an extension lead and see if it makes any difference. I suppose if this was the problem then I could fix this myself as it is wiring after the master socket so wouldnt be fiddling with any of BT's wiring.
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Fault noise levels (REIN) can affect circuits hundreds of meters away from the source, I know, I've personally worked on one such event that took 3 days to resolve.
These are certainly not the norm though. However, it is common-place for a source to be within the same terraced row of houses for example.
Before starting down any of these lines, you need to ensure the whole circuit is optimised within the premises. Until then, it's wet finger in the air faulting. :)
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looking at the graph that Mr Cat has kindly supplied above, . . .
The FEC plot has actually been provided the kitteh friendly WWWombat. :D
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The FEC plot has actually been provided the kitteh friendly WWWombat. :D
My apologies to the Wombat ............... I didn't read the thread apart from the last few posts. Time is money ..... an' all that. ;)
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Thanks for the feedback guys, I'll make sure the circuit in the house is best optimised next time I go over.
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Hey, we're all kitteh's together, aren't we? ^-^
As to be honest there isn't really anything out of the ordinary in the household really. Her parents recently had a new kitchen fitted so the appliances are all new in there, not that a new appliance couldnt interfere of course.
In the big picture, I'd probably be trying to work out what could possibly be running for 33 minutes at a time, then stop for 10-20 minutes, 24x7. I'm struggling to think what would work like that.
If there's nothing in the house that works like that, then the source isn't likely to be the house. Turning heating and air-conditioning off, and unplugging the fridge and freezer should quickly decide that.
Beyond that, I'd consider the route back to the cab. Is there a butcher's shop, with a big freezer? Is there a sewage pump to send sewage uphill somewhere?
I guess the old AM radio trick might be helpful too.
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On the route to the cab there is a petrol station which is 24 hours so that could be quite likely?
Other than that there isn't anything else I can think of without driving past.
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Perhaps petrol stations have something that works like that, but I couldn't really say. Some venting system?