Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => Telephony Wiring + Equipment => Topic started by: setecio on April 23, 2008, 10:41:06 PM

Title: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: setecio on April 23, 2008, 10:41:06 PM
Where (in the uk) can I find junction boxes that will allow me to create a spur wiring setup with 4 branches like in this page
http://www.diydata.com/projects/telephone_socket/telephone_sockets.php

I can't seem to find any that specifically say they are designed for this type of setup (punching down or screw tighten 4 wires in each connector)

eg http://www.clarity.it/xcart/product.php?productid=16161&cat=260&page=1 would this work or is it only for joining 2 wires ? As the connectors are punch down , I doubt it would take 4 in one slot ?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: roseway on April 23, 2008, 10:48:44 PM
You can get stuff like that in B&Q and Homebase.
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: setecio on April 23, 2008, 11:01:41 PM
Ah, never thought of them. Thanks.
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: dave.m on April 23, 2008, 11:12:44 PM
Maplins 1.29
You only need a maximum of four terminals for the wires:
http://tinyurl.com/6f9jbk
The screw down connections would be better contacts than putting more than one wire into each pushdown  in a BT type connector.
dave 
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: Ezzer on April 24, 2008, 02:10:12 AM
If your using an IDC connection (insualtion displacement connector) the type where there is a slot over which the wire passes which with a small tool you push the wire home to connect (the same thing at the back of  the face plate of your bt master socket)

Do not terminate more than 3 wires in any one IDC, any more then you'll probably get an effect where the slot opens up causing some of the wires to have a partial connection (HR Dis or High resistance disconection) this may or may not have an effect on normal telephony, but with broadband on the line, you can get problems with tone dialing yet things work ok with pulse dialing (if you phone has pulse dialing)

You can get a block terminal (connection box) from diy stores about the size of a match box with 2 rows of eight connections numbered 1-8. no.1 on one side is connected to no.1 on the other etc. so allowing 6 wires to be connected together without problems
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: setecio on April 25, 2008, 10:17:55 AM
OK, I got an 8 way idc punchdown junction box described on the front
"for distributing telephone cables around the house"

Am I missing something or is this not going to work.
It seems I could join 1 incoming to 2 outgoing (max of 3 in each punchdown) and for internal telephone wiring I would only use wires 2 and 5 and maybe 3. So this won't work as I want 1 incoming sparring off to 4 extensions (5 total).

So I must get a screw down one but they don't have any.

Looking at Dave.m 's link
http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?ITAG=FAQ&ModuleNo=1190&doy=25m4#faq
is that a mains junction box ... is is OK to use mains junction boxes to give good connections for telephone wiring and does the amp rating matter ?
If so then I'll have no problem finding a mains box that will do the job.
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: mr_chris on April 25, 2008, 12:56:19 PM
Why do you want them all in a star config? What about chaining some of them? That way you can keep the number of wires in each IDC down to just 2.
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: setecio on April 25, 2008, 04:19:04 PM
The layout of the house makes it alot easier.

Surely this is a common method anyway as it is illustrated in various diy guides to telephone wiring.
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: mr_chris on April 25, 2008, 05:20:20 PM
Fair enough, was just asking :)

As regards the Maplin link to the mains junction box - I really can't see a reason why that would be an issue at all. Unless Ezzer or Rizla or somebody else knows something I don't? :)
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: setecio on April 25, 2008, 05:38:00 PM
 :-[  :-[

Just realised I really didn't understand what I had bought or I was thinking of one wire in one side and 2 out the outher side.

Looking at it now, I can see 6 cut out slot, 3 on each side which allows me to connect 6 cables together, with 3 wires in each idc punchdown.  :) There are 8 pairs of punchdown presumably for 8 strand cable but I will only be using 2 (or 3 with ringwire ( or 4 for neatness ))

Thanks.

Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: Ezzer on April 25, 2008, 06:00:38 PM
Ther's nothing wrong with star wiring fron one terminal. Infact if you had to disconnect one bit of faulty wiring/socket it makes life easyer. the 2 rows of 8 idc's are connected, so the no.1 on one side is connected to the other no. 1 etc etc. so you can have one wire as an input and 5 outputs.

If you need more than use a short bit of wire to connect eg no.1 to say a spare no.5 and you can spur another 5 outputs from here (makes 9 out puts in total although this is going to get crammped in the one box so if yoi needed that many and I was doing it I would use a shot lenght if internal cable to a second block termial and run the additional wires off here).

The only thing to look out for with all these wires close together is keep the block terminals at least 50mm from any electricals. The same goes for any length of cable runnig parallel to mains wiring for any distance if you can. if this is mainly done in an attic space, why not pin the phone cable at head height-ish.

Also if your using the full adsl face plate in your nte then there is no problem with using the first 3 wires in the extention cable as an out put and using the other spare 3 to run back in the other direction.

Do not connect internal wiring back on it self forming a big ring, as this will cause reflections and an echo inbalance for any digital signals.

And do not run any wiring of any cabling before your nte (This is what in BT speak is caused star wiring and one of the first things I keep an eye out for on a broadband fault, and putting this right has to be done first and is chargeable).  
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: Ezzer on April 25, 2008, 06:33:34 PM
Incidentaly i forgot to mention, if your doing a moderate amount of connecting it well worth spending 14 on the priper idc insertion tool. the 2 plastic one is ok for one or two extentions.

Hold the tool at right angles to the block when terminating and up to 3 wirw in any IDC is ok.

With the better tool the tails, The sparebit of wire sicking out the end of the idc) will be trimmed off automatically. If your using the little plastic tool then trim this surplus off with a small pair of cutters as these tails will act as antennea if over 2-3mm and could cause snr issues on your broadband

Also any good bit of internal telephone cable or CAT5 will have some cotton running up it. to strip the cable snip up and along the outer insulation with small cutters for about 5-10mm then idealy with long nose pliers grip the cotton and wrap it round the end of the pliers a couple of times. then if you pull the cotton back it tears though the outer insulation easly without dameging the wires in side, and give your self 100-140mm of internal wires to play with.
Check you havent damaged the wires when stripping back
and snip off the end 5mm of intenal wire which was the bit which was initaly exposed when you cut the outer insulation back to expose the cotton.

When tidying the wiring up before closing the block terminal or putting the socket on its pattress/back box. Dont coil any spare wires around the cable or coil the wires in little loops, again to avoid snr issues. instead loop everything around 2 fingers and squash the loop you've made into a rough sausage

Phew, i think I've covered most of it, anything I,vw written dosn;t make sence, please let met know. The number of times Ibvw read back what I've written and thought whaaa...?
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: mr_chris on April 25, 2008, 07:01:23 PM
Heh - Ezzer you are a fountain of knowledge and I've learned a lot from reading your posts :)

I didn't realise that's what you could use the cotton for, I've always wondered what it's there for!!  :-[
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: roseway on April 25, 2008, 07:03:13 PM
>> With the better tool the tails, The sparebit of wire sicking out the end of the idc) will be trimmed off automatically.

Just make sure that you use the tool the right way round, so you don't cut the wire on the other side of the terminal. :)
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: mr_chris on April 25, 2008, 07:06:05 PM
Just make sure that you use the tool the right way round, so you don't cut the wire on the other side of the terminal. :)

That's just reminded me - I did that years ago... on a network socket I was re-wiring at school. And there wasn't particularly a lot of spare cable... I think I let out a few choice words under my breath, much to the amusement of the year 11 kids sitting near to where I was working ;)

Only did it once though!!
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: setecio on April 25, 2008, 08:34:58 PM
Yes indeed Ezzer, thanks for those nuggets of info, very helpful.

When you say
"Also if your using the full adsl face plate in your nte then there is no problem with using the first 3 wires in the extention cable as an out put and using the other spare 3 to run back in the other direction."

I'm not sure what you mean, could you explain that bit ... do you mean in a 6 strand (3 pair) cable ? If so how do you do that ?

Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: mr_chris on April 26, 2008, 02:21:54 AM
I thought I understood it earlier... now I don't fully - perhaps Ezzer is best to explain it!!
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: guest on April 26, 2008, 10:22:28 AM
Its what the BT engineer should have done in my house when he installed the faceplate (back when engineer installs were the norm).

Basically he moved the master socket from the front of the house to the back and converted the old master to an extension. What he should have done is disconnect the existing cable from the old master and wire it to the new master, then "backwire" the old master as an extension by using the spare wires in the cable. What he actually did is to wire both sockets in parallel (what Ezzer calls "star wiring") - basically he left the old cable in situ and added a length of wire to the new master. It took me a while to work out that he'd done this and rather than have someone else come out again I just put a filter on the old master.

That probably doesn't help does it? :D
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: Ezzer on April 26, 2008, 09:12:56 PM
Sorry I'll clarifi this point, As in Rizlas case if thre is a situation where the only way to feed a master socket and then service the extentions means using the same cable (6wire or 3 pair cable) then this would need the full adsl face plate on the nte to avoid "reflections" ie digital signal running up a pair of wires which are picked up in reverse by a pair of wires in close proximity running back the other way. (Ezzer anaolgy time again) It's like reading a soaking wet news paper which is held up to the light, you get the reversed print showing through, making what your reading very difficult to read.Or if you have a faulty cassette tape player which picks up the sound in reverse from the other side at the same time your listening to the main side.

Having the extentions fed back along the same cable which feeds the nte (lead-in) is normaly a big no no. The full dsl face plate would be a fudge around a situation where this is unavoidable as you no longer have a digital signal comming back the other way.

It's unusual to have to feed back the extentions down the same cable rather than spurring off and off hand I can't remember why such a situation should come about after the nte
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: Ezzer on April 26, 2008, 09:24:52 PM
It just came back to me where feeding the internal extentions back down the same cable was needed, en extention feed along a very very tight pitched roof space where I had to crawl  throught an 18 inch high void past a water tank and over 2 vent pipes and only room for one cable into a flat roof void to feed the oil tank monitor unit then to feed an extention in what could become a granny flat/ rented out annex, so without having to crawl though that space again (and definately no way of running a second cable without taking a flat roof up) the annex extention could be disconnected from the utility room in case the annex was seperated and rented out.

How could I forget that afternoon, I hated that job, completely covered in glass fibre insulation, black dust and bat/rat droppings, I came out like a fluffy coal miner and itched all over  >:(
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: marionette on January 16, 2010, 03:03:01 PM
sorry to drag up a old topic but seems to at alose for a answer to my own problem. I'll start off with a basic layout of my adsl/phone cabling and what im hoping to fix/work etc.
my phone wiring has been a total mess since some sky bod came round and installed the sky box in here's how it was: from master socket to adsl filter, 1 cable to router 1 to a second phone 2way adapter with 2 cables for the sky (multi room 1 upstairs 1 downstairs) then the phone line onto the 2way adapter. I've spoken to a few people including a bt engineer (who kindly gave me a adsl/phone master with the built in bt accelerator for free) Ive got as far as changing this and it's helped some what, but now to the problem: i was hoping to run a phone cable from the back plate of the adsl/phone plate to a junction box (i got a PHILEX 8way junction box from B&Q) then run 2 cables off the junction box to phone sockets (1 for upstairs 1 for down stairs) is this possable with the junction box i have? have i gotten the wrong one? were can i find a wiring diagram if it's possable?
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: HPsauce on January 16, 2010, 03:23:07 PM
I keep a few old PO junction boxes in case I ever need them, but haven't used one in ages. 2 reasons:
1. If I want a junction I just put a small phone socket in and use it as a junction box too.
(Some can be really unobtrusive; I've got a couple that are about 5cm tall, 3cm wide and 2 cm deep with the socket on top.)
2. With cordless phones I've disconnected/removed many/most of my extension sockets.

Remember, you only need 2 wires connected anyway.
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: Oranged on January 16, 2010, 03:49:38 PM
were can i find a wiring diagram if it's possable?

http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Wiring/UK_telephone/uk_telephone.html

http://www.telephonesuk.co.uk/wiring_info.htm
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: HPsauce on January 16, 2010, 03:53:15 PM
Except, don't use wire 3, only 2 and 5.
Modern phones don't need wire 3 (bell wire).
Using the bell wire upsets ADSL.
If you have an old phone that doesn't ring as a result just plug it into a filter, that recreates the signal locally. (I do this for one favourite handset)
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: marionette on January 16, 2010, 03:55:59 PM
were can i find a wiring diagram if it's possable?

http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Wiring/UK_telephone/uk_telephone.html

http://www.telephonesuk.co.uk/wiring_info.htm

Ye checked both them sites. Was handy for colour coding but didnt see anything about wiring up the junction box for the 1 in 2 out i was looking to do.
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: HPsauce on January 16, 2010, 04:17:36 PM
That's all you do, 1 in 2 out for each wire.  8)
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: marionette on January 16, 2010, 04:53:17 PM
Ok just so im clear on the back of the master socket there are 3 idc connectors numbers 2,3,5 (blue/white for 2, orange/white for 3 and white/blue for 5) the main adsl cable runs off the adsl port on the master socket. the connectors on the back are my starting point that go to the junction box ( i asume this cable will match the points on the master box 2,3,5) but on the junction box there numbered 1-4 each side with 8 slots again each side. So on one side of the junction there would be 3 wires and 6 on the other side as to were and how im un-clear about. the 2 cables that come out of the juntion will go to phone points were if need be i'll use filters if needed. thanks in advance for your input it's making things alittle clearer in my head!
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: HPsauce on January 16, 2010, 05:00:25 PM
No idea, I don't know that junction box and it's internal structure, just use a phone socket as I do.

As I said, you only need to join all the 2's together and all the 5's, so you only need 2 to use terminals.
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: roseway on January 16, 2010, 05:03:13 PM
As suggested above, disconnect the orange/white wire from terminal 3 in the master socket, and don't connect it anywhere else. Just connect pins 2 and 5 using the colours you mention. It doesn't matter what terminals you use in the junction box; all you have to do is connect through so that pin 2 on the master is connected to pin 2 on each extension socket, and pin 5 on the master is connected to pin 5 on each extension.
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: marionette on January 16, 2010, 05:32:40 PM
http://www.philex.com/parts/show/32004HS# if that helps any?
Title: Re: Where can I buy a junction box to use for spur wiring x4 ?
Post by: roseway on January 16, 2010, 06:47:54 PM
Is there something you still don't understand?